Don,
When was the last time you saw anything but positive boat reviews in any
boat magazine that sells ads?


"Don White" wrote in message
...
Bert Robbins wrote:


Chuck you need to understand that the money flows from the boat buyer to
the dealer to the manufacturer to the advertiser to the magazine. If you
start writing boat reviews that **** off the manufacturer everybody in
the whole chain is looses money except the boat buyer because he will go
buy the other manufacturer's boat.

Oh, and you won't be writing anymore "boat reviews" for the magazine
anymore.


...so now Bert is dispensing advice in the magazine business. Quite a
talented fellow............

Harry you are the only person in rec.boats that is so ashamed of what you
do, what boat you own and your wife's career choice that you had to lie
about all of them.


"HarryKrause" wrote in message
...
Don White wrote:
Bert Robbins wrote:


Chuck you need to understand that the money flows from the boat buyer to
the dealer to the manufacturer to the advertiser to the magazine. If you
start writing boat reviews that **** off the manufacturer everybody in
the whole chain is looses money except the boat buyer because he will go
buy the other manufacturer's boat.

Oh, and you won't be writing anymore "boat reviews" for the magazine
anymore.


...so now Bert is dispensing advice in the magazine business. Quite a
talented fellow............


Bert is one of the many right-wing nuts here who is so ashamed of what he
does for a living, he's never told anyone what it is he does. Hertdick is
in the same boat, as are several other righties.





--
If it is Bad for Bush,
It is Good for the United States.

On Tue, 28 Jun 2005 00:58:29 GMT, Don White wrote:

Bert Robbins wrote:


Chuck you need to understand that the money flows from the boat buyer to the
dealer to the manufacturer to the advertiser to the magazine. If you start
writing boat reviews that **** off the manufacturer everybody in the whole
chain is looses money except the boat buyer because he will go buy the other
manufacturer's boat.

Oh, and you won't be writing anymore "boat reviews" for the magazine
anymore.


...so now Bert is dispensing advice in the magazine business. Quite a
talented fellow............

What was incorrect in Bert's comments, Don?
--
John H

"All decisions are the result of binary thinking."

"*JimH*" wrote:
Gene, I ran across this discussion of Grady-White vs Pursuit on another
forum while searching for the lay-up schedule of SeaRay boats.

You and Tom may enjoy it. Nice forum too so don't be afraid to join.

http://www.thehulltruth.com/forums/t...rt=41&posts=41


Sorry, I don't like to try reading forums around the edge of the 'JOIN
NOW' box... who needs annoying commercialized bull****?



Gene Kearns wrote:
Thanks...

There are a lot of give-and-takes... necessary evils... in
construction. IMHO... foam core construction is a poor choice of
construction for a boat. It is often employed in aircraft construction
where weight (or lack thereof) is of paramount importance.

You're missing an important point here. It's not about weight, it's
about strength. Foam cores allow a much higher rigidity (modulus) for a
given weight; that's why they can be built lighter. A properly built
foam core panel can literally be twice as strong at half the weight of
solid fiberglass. At equal weight, it would be about 8X as strong, for
equal strength, maybe 1/4 the weight.

Foam core panels do have a number of downsides. They need to be
engineered properly, it's expensive to just build it up 10X as strong as
it needs to be, then start cutting it down until it starts flexing
alarmingly... ie standard boatbuilders engineering. They need to be
carefully laid up for max bond strength, requiring more & better labor,
higher costs. They need to be protected against water intrusion, meaning
that the owner must maintain the boat properly, and this IMHO is the
biggest cause of core problems.

Boats are like airplanes in that they pay a speed penalty for carrying
more weight. Do you like boats that use more fuel & are slower than they
should be? If so, *then* you have good cause to dislike foam core
construction.


.... Grady-White... a viable argument could be made
that marine plywood, while an excellent structural element, can
rot....

Yep, it sure can... and almost certainly will. It's only a matter of time.

... though I suspect that rotten wood and foam core have about the
same strength.. go figure...


How do you "figure" this?


Chopper guns... whether guided by computer or hand are cost effective
methods of getting glass and resin on a surface. They are poor
substitutes for providing strength and rigidity.


Chopper gun lay-up is heavy & brittle. It's a cheap way to build up
thickness & not have print-thru. IMHO a well-built boat should not have
any chopper gun in it anywhere. There's no reason to use a chopper gun
except to cut cost.

An interesting term.... "lay-up schedule"... usually involves a warp
clock and, in this discussion, implies that there is a warp.... or
stated in other terms... that there are no chopped strands involved...


No, a lay-up schedule can include random stand mat, or core-mat which
kind of like felt, as well as fabric or roving.


I like cloth for layups and that includes Pursuit and G-W.... among a
host of others..... I DON'T like chopper guns.... as that smacks of
poor strength and bean counters....


heh heh heh how do you feel about rotomolded plastic?

Again... this has more to do with opinion than anything else. I have
seen very few boats that have failed structurally... in fact... I only
have proof of one.... a Trophy that sunk off Wrightsville Beach, NC a
few years ago, while taking part in a fishing tournament. It was a
dealer boat and I got pictures of the thing when it was dumped back at
the dealership.... Yep, you guessed it.... chopper gun...


Can't say I've seen a lot of boats that have failed structurally, but
certainly more than one. Sometimes it was due to the boat being placed
in a ridiculous situation, like being trapped under one corner of the
dock in a rising tide; or left to bash against a piling for 12 hours
thru a hurricane.

It would be possible, but expensive, to build a boat that was proof
against this sort of stupidity... it would not be possible at any price
to build a boat that was strong enough to withstand any & all possible
abuse... especially if you include poor maintenance!

Fair Skies
Doug King

"Don White" wrote in message
...
Bert Robbins wrote:


Chuck you need to understand that the money flows from the boat buyer to
the dealer to the manufacturer to the advertiser to the magazine. If you
start writing boat reviews that **** off the manufacturer everybody in
the whole chain is looses money except the boat buyer because he will go
buy the other manufacturer's boat.

Oh, and you won't be writing anymore "boat reviews" for the magazine
anymore.


...so now Bert is dispensing advice in the magazine business. Quite a
talented fellow............

Thank you Don, I knew you would finally see the blinding brilliance of my
capabilities soon enough.

"DSK" wrote in message
...
"*JimH*" wrote:
Gene, I ran across this discussion of Grady-White vs Pursuit on another
forum while searching for the lay-up schedule of SeaRay boats.

You and Tom may enjoy it. Nice forum too so don't be afraid to join.

http://www.thehulltruth.com/forums/t...rt=41&posts=41

Sorry, I don't like to try reading forums around the edge of the 'JOIN
NOW' box... who needs annoying commercialized bull****?

Especially when you can fling your own bull**** around here and not get
kicked off by the "moderators."

"DSK" wrote in message
...
"*JimH*" wrote:
Gene, I ran across this discussion of Grady-White vs Pursuit on another
forum while searching for the lay-up schedule of SeaRay boats.

You and Tom may enjoy it. Nice forum too so don't be afraid to join.

http://www.thehulltruth.com/forums/t...rt=41&posts=41

Sorry, I don't like to try reading forums around the edge of the 'JOIN
NOW' box... who needs annoying commercialized bull****?


I missed the part where I asked you to read the discussion over there DSK.

BTW: The site is not commercialized. However, one does have to join to
view and post to the forum after the first looky-see.

And all you had to do is click on that tiny 'x' in the upper right corner to
get rid of the box. ;-)

On Tue, 28 Jun 2005 06:59:35 -0400, DSK wrote:

Foam core panels do have a number of downsides. They need to be
engineered properly, it's expensive to just build it up 10X as strong as
it needs to be, then start cutting it down until it starts flexing
alarmingly... ie standard boatbuilders engineering. They need to be
carefully laid up for max bond strength, requiring more & better labor,
higher costs. They need to be protected against water intrusion, meaning
that the owner must maintain the boat properly, and this IMHO is the
biggest cause of core problems.

Years ago I became interested in "cold molding" using the WEST system
of wood veneer over a base frame, sans core. A friend of mine back
then built a 32 foot Downeaster style boat using this method and it's
one hell of a boat - it's been through a lot and looks damn near new.

He built a second boat - a 40 foot, full keel sailboat using some kind
of core material (I can't remember at the moment) again with the
veneer and WEST system resins and that boat has been used well and
it's a very solid boat - in fact, the only sail boat my wife will step
foot on.

What really counts is the workmanship. I wouldn't have any problems
purchasing a Bluefin and they use chopper guns to bolster areas of
their hull - it's a great hull, well built and solid as a rock.

Shortwave Sportfishing wrote:
Years ago I became interested in "cold molding" using the WEST system
of wood veneer over a base frame, sans core.

That's an excellent way to build a boat... or any other structure where
strength and high load cycle life span is desirable. Basically it's the
same thing ('laminated composite') as conventional fiberglass, only
substituting wood fibers & epoxy for glass fibers & polyester.


... A friend of mine back
then built a 32 foot Downeaster style boat using this method and it's
one hell of a boat - it's been through a lot and looks damn near new.


Sounds good... I bet it's been well taken care of, too.

He built a second boat - a 40 foot, full keel sailboat using some kind
of core material (I can't remember at the moment) again with the
veneer and WEST system resins and that boat has been used well and
it's a very solid boat - in fact, the only sail boat my wife will step
foot on.


I've only read about this kind of build method... sounds wierd to put a
foam core inside a wood laminate, but according to the texts it's very
strong stuff.

What really counts is the workmanship.

And the maintenance.

... I wouldn't have any problems
purchasing a Bluefin and they use chopper guns to bolster areas of
their hull - it's a great hull, well built and solid as a rock.

Maybe so, I've never seen a Bluefin that I know of, it could be a great
boat. But I stand by my statement that the only reason to use a chopper
gun is to save money... it's heavy & weak compared to any other sort of
lay-up. The good points are that it builds up quickly and has little or
no print-thru. A friend of mine who worked in a fiberglass shop making
shower stalls & bath tubs once made a 14' skiff with a chopper gun. It
weighed half a ton and flexed where you stepped. But it didn't cost
anything, it was made up of what would otherwise have been cleaned out
of the chopper gun and thrown away.

Fair Skies
Doug King

JohnH,
Bert didn't say anything that was incorrect. I am sure Don will quietly
disappear from this thread. I keep waiting for Gould to show us the
detailed lay-up schedule shown on the SeaRay and the robot builders web
site. I looked but could only find pretty pictures without any information
on the lay-up schedule.

From what I have read since this post started is a chopper gun is still the
worst method of applying fiberglass. While it is a cost savings to SeaRay,
It lacks the strength of conventional fiberglass lay-up as shown on the Four
Winns web site.




"John H" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 28 Jun 2005 00:58:29 GMT, Don White
wrote:

Bert Robbins wrote:


Chuck you need to understand that the money flows from the boat buyer to
the
dealer to the manufacturer to the advertiser to the magazine. If you
start
writing boat reviews that **** off the manufacturer everybody in the
whole
chain is looses money except the boat buyer because he will go buy the
other
manufacturer's boat.

Oh, and you won't be writing anymore "boat reviews" for the magazine
anymore.


...so now Bert is dispensing advice in the magazine business. Quite a
talented fellow............

What was incorrect in Bert's comments, Don?
--
John H

"All decisions are the result of binary thinking."