Bush Blunders Taking a Toll
 

On Sun, 09 May 2004 14:33:14 -0400, John Gaquin wrote:


Actually, if you read carefully you'll find that what Rumsfeld actually
said is that there are more photos and tapes of the crimes already
committed at abu Ghraib that are already the subject of reports and
investigation.

"In two tense congressional hearings that attracted Pentagon brass and
war protesters, Rumsfeld warned that unreleased videos and photos depict
far worse treatment of Iraqis than the widely distributed pictures of
naked detainees in humiliating poses that spawned worldwide outrage
recently."

"We're talking about rape and murder here, we're not just talking about
giving people a humiliating experience," said Sen. Lindsay Graham,
R-S.C., a member of the Armed Services Committee.

From:

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/8616398.htm?1c


Look, I'll agree that the vast majority of our soldiers are doing an
admirable job, but this mess is still quite troubling. While failed
leadership has a role, and the training of these particular soldiers can
be brought in to question, I keep reading about these soldiers being asked
to "soften" the detainees for interrogation. If this is true, it is a
systemic failure that needs to be addressed.

Bush Blunders Taking a Toll
 

"thunder" wrote in message

Look, I'll agree that the vast majority of our soldiers are doing an
admirable job, but this mess is still quite troubling. While failed
leadership has a role, and the training of these particular soldiers can
be brought in to question, I keep reading about these soldiers being asked
to "soften" the detainees for interrogation. If this is true, it is a
systemic failure that needs to be addressed.

I agree wholeheartedly. The assigned mission of the MP units was internment
and resettlement. There should be no mixing of this with intelligence and
interrogation functions. The MI units should conduct these procedures
exclusively, subject to the rules and procedures that apply to high value,
security, and intelligence detainees -- which may well include standard
procedures to yield more compliant interrogation. This is, after all, a
war, and not a job interview. Having said that, I don't think anything we
saw in the photos or have heard described in additional allegations is
considered acceptable procedure. It is worth reiterating that only those
small MP units whose functions got mixed with the intelligence units appear
to be involved with the prisoner abuse.

I would apply the following caveat: The Taguba report refers to "systemic
failures." When the term "systemic failure" is used in a report of this
kind, the meaning is that the command and oversight structure either failed
or was improperly organized from the start. When the term "systemic
failure" is used in news reports, it is done [intentionally, I believe]
knowing that the majority of readers/listeners will misinterpret it to mean
that the whole system is involved with the abuse, that the events are
occuring throughout the country. This simply is not true, but the news
sources make no effort to clarify this point. I refer particularly to
American and European news sources. I expect nothing but propaganda from
mid-east news sources, and to date have been neither disappointed nor
surprised.

Don't misunderstand my position. I do not defend the actions of these
soldiers with prisoners. I only want to stick to facts as we know them.
Right now the US press is ginning up a feeding frenzy, having found a
fissure in the Bush campaign. They would do well to remember that when
sharks go into a frenzy, it is common for several of the sharks to get eaten
in the chaos. The press must guard against a similar level of enthusiastic
accuracy.

Bush Blunders Taking a Toll
 

John Gaquin wrote:
"Harry Krause" wrote in message
news:2g3qjoF450haU1@uni-


According to Rumsfeld, we haven't seen the worst acts of torture and

degradation inflicted by US soldiers on Iraqi prisoners.

Stick that up your denials, Gaquin.


Crude response, but not atypical, Harry.

Actually, if you read carefully you'll find that what Rumsfeld actually said
is that there are more photos and tapes of the crimes already committed at
abu Ghraib that are already the subject of reports and investigation. Of
course, this in no way ameliorates the situation, but nor does it exacerbate
it. Taking one hundred pictures of a train wreck instead of fifteen
pictures does not mean there were more train wrecks. But it does mean that
those who don't pay attention can be made to think that there were more
train wrecks, if someone wants to convince them of that.

If you also read the Taguba report, two things are clear.

1) The leadership, training, and command oversight within the 800 MP Brigade
was seriously deficient.


The deficiencies in leadership in this country go all the way to the
top. The buck stops on Bush's desk.

Bush Blunders Taking a Toll
 

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
John Gaquin wrote:
"Harry Krause" wrote in message
news:2g3qjoF450haU1@uni-


According to Rumsfeld, we haven't seen the worst acts of torture and

degradation inflicted by US soldiers on Iraqi prisoners.

Stick that up your denials, Gaquin.


Crude response, but not atypical, Harry.

Actually, if you read carefully you'll find that what Rumsfeld actually
said
is that there are more photos and tapes of the crimes already committed
at
abu Ghraib that are already the subject of reports and investigation.
Of
course, this in no way ameliorates the situation, but nor does it
exacerbate
it. Taking one hundred pictures of a train wreck instead of fifteen
pictures does not mean there were more train wrecks. But it does mean
that
those who don't pay attention can be made to think that there were more
train wrecks, if someone wants to convince them of that.

If you also read the Taguba report, two things are clear.

1) The leadership, training, and command oversight within the 800 MP
Brigade
was seriously deficient.


The deficiencies in leadership in this country go all the way to the
top. The buck stops on Bush's desk.

Was Clinton responsible for the savage deaths of postal workers by fellow
postal employees in the 1990's? By your twisted logic, he should have been.
The buck stopped at Clintons desk, didn't it?.

Bush Blunders Taking a Toll
 

jim-- wrote:

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...

John Gaquin wrote:

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
news:2g3qjoF450haU1@uni-


According to Rumsfeld, we haven't seen the worst acts of torture and

degradation inflicted by US soldiers on Iraqi prisoners.


Stick that up your denials, Gaquin.


Crude response, but not atypical, Harry.

Actually, if you read carefully you'll find that what Rumsfeld actually

said

is that there are more photos and tapes of the crimes already committed

at

abu Ghraib that are already the subject of reports and investigation.

Of

course, this in no way ameliorates the situation, but nor does it

exacerbate

it. Taking one hundred pictures of a train wreck instead of fifteen
pictures does not mean there were more train wrecks. But it does mean

that

those who don't pay attention can be made to think that there were more
train wrecks, if someone wants to convince them of that.

If you also read the Taguba report, two things are clear.

1) The leadership, training, and command oversight within the 800 MP

Brigade

was seriously deficient.


The deficiencies in leadership in this country go all the way to the
top. The buck stops on Bush's desk.


Was Clinton responsible for the savage deaths of postal workers by fellow
postal employees in the 1990's? By your twisted logic, he should have been.
The buck stopped at Clintons desk, didn't it?.






Duh...Bush is, god help us, CiC. The US Postal Service is a semi-private
corporation, with its own leader who is accountable to the postal board
of governors, not the POTUS.

BUSH is responsible for the horrendous acts our troops perpetrated on
POWs. He is the CiC. The buck stops on his desk.

Bush Blunders Taking a Toll
 

Harry Krause wrote:

jim-- wrote:

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
\



BTW, Dennis, caught two really plump flounder today over on the Eastern
Shore, right near the Choptank River. Only fished for about an hour,
went cruising in that area for most of the day. Michener wrote about the
area in a pretty good historical novel called "Chesapeake." Hmmmmm. I'll
have to see what I can find in the bookstore, novelwise, about Cleveland.

Bush Blunders Taking a Toll
 

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
jim-- wrote:

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...

John Gaquin wrote:

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
news:2g3qjoF450haU1@uni-


According to Rumsfeld, we haven't seen the worst acts of torture and

degradation inflicted by US soldiers on Iraqi prisoners.


Stick that up your denials, Gaquin.


Crude response, but not atypical, Harry.

Actually, if you read carefully you'll find that what Rumsfeld actually

said

is that there are more photos and tapes of the crimes already committed

at

abu Ghraib that are already the subject of reports and investigation.

Of

course, this in no way ameliorates the situation, but nor does it

exacerbate

it. Taking one hundred pictures of a train wreck instead of fifteen
pictures does not mean there were more train wrecks. But it does mean

that

those who don't pay attention can be made to think that there were more
train wrecks, if someone wants to convince them of that.

If you also read the Taguba report, two things are clear.

1) The leadership, training, and command oversight within the 800 MP

Brigade

was seriously deficient.


The deficiencies in leadership in this country go all the way to the
top. The buck stops on Bush's desk.


Was Clinton responsible for the savage deaths of postal workers by
fellow
postal employees in the 1990's? By your twisted logic, he should have
been.
The buck stopped at Clintons desk, didn't it?.






Duh...Bush is, god help us, CiC. The US Postal Service is a semi-private
corporation, with its own leader who is accountable to the postal board
of governors, not the POTUS.

BUSH is responsible for the horrendous acts our troops perpetrated on
POWs. He is the CiC. The buck stops on his desk.

Sorry jacko, the Postal Service is not independent of the US Government and
is subject to laws executed by the President and Executive Branch.

Duh.

Bush Blunders Taking a Toll
 

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Harry Krause wrote:

jim-- wrote:

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
\



BTW, Dennis, caught two really plump flounder today over on the Eastern
Shore, right near the Choptank River. Only fished for about an hour,
went cruising in that area for most of the day. Michener wrote about the
area in a pretty good historical novel called "Chesapeake." Hmmmmm. I'll
have to see what I can find in the bookstore, novelwise, about Cleveland.

Good for you. I am happy for you.

Too bad you don't know about Cleveland. I will chalk it up to pure
ignorance on your part. But the town is far better off without the likes of
you.

It takes a real moron to try to insult someone based on the city they live
in. But then again, you are a moron so I would not expect anything
differently from you.

Bush Blunders Taking a Toll
 

On Sun, 09 May 2004 17:00:02 -0400, John Gaquin wrote:


Don't misunderstand my position. I do not defend the actions of these
soldiers with prisoners. I only want to stick to facts as we know them.
Right now the US press is ginning up a feeding frenzy, having found a
fissure in the Bush campaign. They would do well to remember that when
sharks go into a frenzy, it is common for several of the sharks to get
eaten in the chaos. The press must guard against a similar level of
enthusiastic accuracy.

While not defending their actions, I somehow feel we have failed these
soldiers. I believe the soldier to be tried shortly was a reservist,
trained as a truck driver. His lack of training, and the Army's lack of
leadership is a failure not of his making. He should never have been in
that situation without the proper training. The speed of his trial being
scheduled, also, unfortunately, signals to me, scapegoat. The Army has
already, apparently, convicted a soldier of homicide. His punishment was
demoting to private, and a dishonorable discharge, *no* jail time, but
that flew under the press' radar.

The press is the press. With all it's failings, I question if any of this
would have come to light if it hadn't been for the press.

Bush Blunders Taking a Toll
 

"thunder" wrote in message

The press is the press. With all it's failings, I question if any of this
would have come to light if it hadn't been for the press.

That's the conventional wisdom, and no one offers a correction. The fact is
that the allegations came from within the Army, the investigation was
launched by the Army, and the fact of the allegations and the investigation
was publicized by the Army in a press statement within days of the
allegations being made. The Army investigated and the report started moving
up the line, as is its wont, in April. The only reason the press even
noticed was because one of those nimrods was stupid enough to post pictures
on the web. Our press has effected some brilliant investigative journalism
over the years, but this ain't part of it.