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Bush Blunders Taking a Toll
"Harry Krause" wrote in message ....his words seemed to have done little to stem a chorus of complaints across the globe A chorus being led, ironically, by the NYT and the Dems in US Congress..... *"In the world the United States has a moral and political leadership," said Alioune Tine, There you have it. This whole brouhaha is preposterous. The event itself is totally unacceptable, and the people involved should be imprisoned, for rank stupidity if nothing else. Pictures? On the net? Please! The international press furor is naught but a political red herring. The fact of a few dozen Americans behaving this way has supposedly shocked the world. Why? Because our two centuries of history have documented and confirmed the fact that this is not the way the US of A does business. The world *expects* the US to hold the high road, and act with fairness and dignity. They expect it because we have repeatedly shown that that is what we do. On the other hand, I have heard no sustained fury or condemnation from the world press, or (for that matter) from the leadership of the Islamic and/or Arabic communities anywhere in the world, regarding the treatment of prisoners in similar venues throughout the Islamic world, or regarding the murder of innocents in the name of jihad. Why? Because almost two *millenia* of history has shown that this is the way that *they* do business. The world, and their own communities, *expect* Arabic and Islamic cultures to treat prisoners in a brutal and subhuman manner. They expect it because these cultures have repeatedly shown that this is what they do. This sort of thing is expected from Arabic or Islamic cultures, so when it occurs there no one is substantially surprised. To claim that the Islamic world is infuriated by these events is to be naive in the extreme. ( Did you note the Iraqi protesters on the news? See those nice placards they were holding? Well printed, in good, legible English? Think they whipped them up at home?) They expect political or military prisoners to be treated this way. Nota bene that in these cultures [as throughout most of the rest of the world] the notion of a "political prisoner" is not considered unusual. That in itself speaks volumes. The Islamic world is not infuriated by these events -- they rejoice in the political opportunity the event presents them, and generally do not care a whit for the prisoners involved. |
Bush Blunders Taking a Toll
On Fri, 7 May 2004 09:37:15 -0400, "John Gaquin"
wrote: On the other hand, I have heard no sustained fury or condemnation from the world press, or (for that matter) from the leadership of the Islamic and/or Arabic communities anywhere in the world, regarding the treatment of prisoners in similar venues throughout the Islamic world, or regarding the murder of innocents in the name of jihad. Why? Because almost two *millenia* of history has shown that this is the way that *they* do business. The world, and their own communities, *expect* Arabic and Islamic cultures to treat prisoners in a brutal and subhuman manner. They expect it because these cultures have repeatedly shown that this is what they do. This sort of thing is expected from Arabic or Islamic cultures, so when it occurs there no one is substantially surprised. So Bush has brought us down to the level of Saddam and his ilk, and you and your kind think this is a good thing. I for one have never cared for Bush and his clan, but this is a new low for even them. Unfortunately, there's a long climb back up to the high road, but then again, there's a very long road back to fiscal responsibility. The damage Bush and his henchmen have done to this country will probably never be undone. bb |
Bush Blunders Taking a Toll
"bb" wrote in message So Bush has brought us down to the level of Saddam and his ilk, and you and your kind think this is a good thing. Either you deliberately misrepresent my words for your own purposes, or you really ought to work on your reading comprehension skills. There are no other alternatives presented by your response. Are you dull enough to think your fraud will go unnoticed? The events are very significant in a humanitarian sense. Politically very significant. Very significant from a management perspective in that there ought never be an opportunity for a few dozen maladjusted whack jobs to jeopardize the strategic position of the entire nation. But the fact is that the sort of behavior depicted in the prison photos remains, for the USA as a matter of policy, a statistically insignificant aberration. This is spit in a hurricane. |
Bush Blunders Taking a Toll
A chorus being led, ironically, by the NYT and the Dems in US Congress.....
Nah. Interrupting political silence for a rare, pro-Bush comment from Gould. I fully expected GWB to minimize, obfuscate, deny, and otherwise hide from the situation. My expectations wouldn't have been derailed if the Bush team tried to spin some way to blame one of John Kerry's 1995 defense budget votes as the root cause of the racist, trailer trash, sadistic sexual torture of Iraqi prisoners. For maybe the second or third time in over three years, I was wrong about Bush. Accepting (US) responsiblity for the murders and torture and making a public apology is one of the few truly presidential actions of GWB's career. In my opinion. Hats off to Bush for handling this in an admirable manner. His job approval rating just tripled in my book: I think he's up to 15% now. :-) But then again I'm not a Democrat, and I don't write for the NYT. |
Bush Blunders Taking a Toll
This 4 years of Bush Whitehouse has frankly been, PURE TORTURE! ;-)
On Fri, 7 May 2004 09:37:15 -0400, "John Gaquin" wrote: "Harry Krause" wrote in message ....his words seemed to have done little to stem a chorus of complaints across the globe A chorus being led, ironically, by the NYT and the Dems in US Congress..... *"In the world the United States has a moral and political leadership," said Alioune Tine, There you have it. This whole brouhaha is preposterous. The event itself is totally unacceptable, and the people involved should be imprisoned, for rank stupidity if nothing else. Pictures? On the net? Please! The international press furor is naught but a political red herring. The fact of a few dozen Americans behaving this way has supposedly shocked the world. Why? Because our two centuries of history have documented and confirmed the fact that this is not the way the US of A does business. The world *expects* the US to hold the high road, and act with fairness and dignity. They expect it because we have repeatedly shown that that is what we do. On the other hand, I have heard no sustained fury or condemnation from the world press, or (for that matter) from the leadership of the Islamic and/or Arabic communities anywhere in the world, regarding the treatment of prisoners in similar venues throughout the Islamic world, or regarding the murder of innocents in the name of jihad. Why? Because almost two *millenia* of history has shown that this is the way that *they* do business. The world, and their own communities, *expect* Arabic and Islamic cultures to treat prisoners in a brutal and subhuman manner. They expect it because these cultures have repeatedly shown that this is what they do. This sort of thing is expected from Arabic or Islamic cultures, so when it occurs there no one is substantially surprised. To claim that the Islamic world is infuriated by these events is to be naive in the extreme. ( Did you note the Iraqi protesters on the news? See those nice placards they were holding? Well printed, in good, legible English? Think they whipped them up at home?) They expect political or military prisoners to be treated this way. Nota bene that in these cultures [as throughout most of the rest of the world] the notion of a "political prisoner" is not considered unusual. That in itself speaks volumes. The Islamic world is not infuriated by these events -- they rejoice in the political opportunity the event presents them, and generally do not care a whit for the prisoners involved. |
Bush Blunders Taking a Toll
wrote in message ... This 4 years of Bush Whitehouse has frankly been, PURE TORTURE! ;-) Of course it has, you poor thing! :-( It must be horrible for you. For a group that builds programs on feeling rather than thinking, losing a close contest must be so painful! And now, having been attacked and being at war, and knowing that, had your policies been followed, we would only be mired in protracted, futile, humiliating and dystrophic "talks" through the UN with the very parties who attacked us - well, I can certainly understand your dyspeptic response! If only we Republicans were a more caring, sensitive, and empathetic lot, we might be able to (as someone once said) "feel your pain." ;-) |
Bush Blunders Taking a Toll
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Bush Blunders Taking a Toll
"John Gaquin" wrote in message ...
"bb" wrote in message So Bush has brought us down to the level of Saddam and his ilk, and you and your kind think this is a good thing. Either you deliberately misrepresent my words for your own purposes, or you really ought to work on your reading comprehension skills. There are no other alternatives presented by your response. Are you dull enough to think your fraud will go unnoticed? The events are very significant in a humanitarian sense. Politically very significant. Very significant from a management perspective in that there ought never be an opportunity for a few dozen maladjusted whack jobs to jeopardize the strategic position of the entire nation. But the fact is that the sort of behavior depicted in the prison photos remains, for the USA as a matter of policy, a statistically insignificant aberration. This is spit in a hurricane. Do you think that, seeing how today's take on things are that OUR government knew, and covered up these atrocities for over a year? |
Bush Blunders Taking a Toll
"basskisser" wrote in message .....today's take on things are that OUR government knew, and covered up these atrocities for over a year? Over a year. Hmmm. So, I guess we started abusing Iraqi prisoners before we arrived in Iraq. Yes, now I understand. |
Bush Blunders Taking a Toll
The eight years previous to Bush were pure hell!
wrote in message ... This 4 years of Bush Whitehouse has frankly been, PURE TORTURE! ;-) On Fri, 7 May 2004 09:37:15 -0400, "John Gaquin" wrote: "Harry Krause" wrote in message ....his words seemed to have done little to stem a chorus of complaints across the globe A chorus being led, ironically, by the NYT and the Dems in US Congress..... *"In the world the United States has a moral and political leadership," said Alioune Tine, There you have it. This whole brouhaha is preposterous. The event itself is totally unacceptable, and the people involved should be imprisoned, for rank stupidity if nothing else. Pictures? On the net? Please! The international press furor is naught but a political red herring. The fact of a few dozen Americans behaving this way has supposedly shocked the world. Why? Because our two centuries of history have documented and confirmed the fact that this is not the way the US of A does business. The world *expects* the US to hold the high road, and act with fairness and dignity. They expect it because we have repeatedly shown that that is what we do. On the other hand, I have heard no sustained fury or condemnation from the world press, or (for that matter) from the leadership of the Islamic and/or Arabic communities anywhere in the world, regarding the treatment of prisoners in similar venues throughout the Islamic world, or regarding the murder of innocents in the name of jihad. Why? Because almost two *millenia* of history has shown that this is the way that *they* do business. The world, and their own communities, *expect* Arabic and Islamic cultures to treat prisoners in a brutal and subhuman manner. They expect it because these cultures have repeatedly shown that this is what they do. This sort of thing is expected from Arabic or Islamic cultures, so when it occurs there no one is substantially surprised. To claim that the Islamic world is infuriated by these events is to be naive in the extreme. ( Did you note the Iraqi protesters on the news? See those nice placards they were holding? Well printed, in good, legible English? Think they whipped them up at home?) They expect political or military prisoners to be treated this way. Nota bene that in these cultures [as throughout most of the rest of the world] the notion of a "political prisoner" is not considered unusual. That in itself speaks volumes. The Islamic world is not infuriated by these events -- they rejoice in the political opportunity the event presents them, and generally do not care a whit for the prisoners involved. |
Bush Blunders Taking a Toll
On Fri, 7 May 2004 16:14:31 -0400, "Bert Robbins"
wrote: The eight years previous to Bush were pure hell! Yeah, peace and prosperity is pure hell. bb |
Bush Blunders Taking a Toll
On Fri, 7 May 2004 13:18:22 -0400, "John Gaquin" wrote: wrote in message .. . This 4 years of Bush Whitehouse has frankly been, PURE TORTURE! ;-) Of course it has, you poor thing! :-( It must be horrible for you. For a group that builds programs on feeling rather than thinking, losing a close contest must be so painful! And now, having been attacked and being at war, and knowing that, had your policies been followed, we would only be mired in protracted, futile, humiliating and dystrophic "talks" through the UN with the very parties who attacked us - well, I can certainly understand your dyspeptic response! If only we Republicans were a more caring, sensitive, and empathetic lot, we might be able to (as someone once said) "feel your pain." ;-) There is a difference between Patriotism and Hatriotism. You all accuse Dems/Libs and basically everyone that disagrees with you of being "Anti-American. Hating our troops blah blah". Im sick of this sort of Hannity Hatriotism. You NeoCons seem to be belligerent with nationalism to the point of being delusional and common sense eludes you all. Your all Hatriots! You hide behind the flag and religion to push your agenda rather than thinking. Many of you are Chickenhawks and most likely the classroom tattletale growing up. Have you watched the news the past 3 months? Do you realize how badly this Administration dropped the ball on 911? Could not connect the dots. Do you realize that the person/s responsible for this are still at large? OBL? Remember him? Do you realize that most of our current war efforts are still not fully justified? No WoMD? No definite links to Al-Qaeda! I WAS NEVER SCARED OF SADDAM! Eeesh. Here we are 125 billion in the hole on a war we still have not fully justified to the world and we need MORE MONEY! Lawrence Lindsey told the Whitehouse the war would cost 200 million. HE GOT FIRED OVER THAT! Well looks like he was right. Now the whole damn Arab world hates us. GREAT! BRILLIANT! Had we "Stayed the Course" and stood our ground holding Al-Qaeda, OBL and those responsible perhaps we would had WON support and respect world wide. Instead we did exactly what OBL says the west wants to do. Attack Arabs. Attack Islam. So now in Iraq with this mess and Torture Scandal and no proven WoMD or Al-Qaeda links we have galvanized that friggin argument. Evedently OBL is smarter than our Goverment. Our actions go right with his please to the arabs and people of the middle east. That we are attacking them. Had we put these efforts to hold only the person accountable where would be today? This administration is arrogant buncha buffoons. Like the only argument i can hear Bush over Kerry is "Bush is decisive". I would rather have a cautious waffler than someone who continually makes quick bad decisions who appoints people that make quick bad decisions. I'm going to take the lesser of the 2 evils. At least Bush Sr made diplomacy work. Bush Jr has made it a Joke. I cannot support this screwed up buncha right wing hatriot zealots. |
Bush Blunders Taking a Toll
wrote in message There is a difference between Patriotism and Hatriotism. Oooo! Clever buzzword! You all accuse Dems/Libs and basically everyone that disagrees with you of being "Anti-American. Hating our troops blah blah". Quotes please. Of my posts. (Psssst -- You won't find any.) Im sick of this sort of Hannity Hatriotism. There's that buzzword again. Good reinforcement. You NeoCons seem to be..... Who? Your all Hatriots! You hide behind the flag..... Now its starting to get boring. .... Many of you are Chickenhawks Don't park too far out on that limb, bucko. I have served, proudly. Have you? I have been shot at in anger. Have you? and most likely the classroom tattletale growing up. A little psychology for the masses? ....this Administration dropped the ball on 911? Could not connect the dots. Nobody could. .....war efforts are still not fully justified? No WoMD? They were there. Now they're not. What does that tell you? No definite links to Al-Qaeda! What do you need, a notarized contract in triplicate? Only a fool thinks there is no connection between Iraq and al Qaida. ....... Now the whole damn Arab world hates us. That represents no substantial change from the status quo ante. I would rather have a cautious waffler ....... And that makes you a mainstream Democrat. This is the history of most of the the past forty years in Congress. Identify the issues. Discuss the issues. Debate the issues. Legislate the issues. Investigate the issues. Subsidize the issues. Hold hearings on the issues. Publish reports on the issues. Appoint "Blue Ribbon Commissions" on the issues. Perform every maneuver in the book, but for God's sake don't SOLVE the issue!! Because then you wouldn't OWN the issue any more, and you'd have to find some other constituency to milk. Pathetic. |
Bush Blunders Taking a Toll
John Gaquin wrote:
wrote in message ... This 4 years of Bush Whitehouse has frankly been, PURE TORTURE! ;-) Of course it has, you poor thing! :-( It must be horrible for you. For a group that builds programs on feeling rather than thinking, losing a close contest must be so painful! And now, having been attacked , By Al-Queada, get it, Al-Queada, a group led by a crimminal named Osama, not Saddam. and being at war, War????, this is an act of aggression on a couple of third world, under developed countries, using the excuse that they "still" had weapons of mass distruction, we sold them, that never attacked us. This "WMD story" continues to be an unproved theory. This isn't War. This is being "The Bully". Our brave men and women are dying to prove we can be a Bully. There's something wrong with this picture. If they want democracy, show them that it can work here first. and knowing that, had your policies been followed, we would only be mired in protracted, futile, humiliating and dystrophic "talks" through the UN with the very parties who attacked us Al-Queada???, Al-Queada???, You know, I don't recall them having a seat in the UN. - well, I can certainly understand your dyspeptic response! The lies are enough to make "me" sick. If only we Republicans were a more caring, sensitive, and empathetic lot, we might be able to (as someone once said) "feel your pain." ;-) You must believe if you repeat something enough times, it will become the truth, but it won't. This is all the time I will alot to these lies. _______m___õ¿~___m_________________________ "Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away". --George Carlin-- |
Bush Blunders Taking a Toll
On Fri, 7 May 2004 18:48:36 -0400, "John Gaquin"
wrote: And that makes you a mainstream Democrat. This is the history of most of the the past forty years in Congress. Identify the issues. Discuss the issues. Debate the issues. Legislate the issues. Investigate the issues. Subsidize the issues. Hold hearings on the issues. Publish reports on the issues. Appoint "Blue Ribbon Commissions" on the issues. Perform every maneuver in the book, but for God's sake don't SOLVE the issue!! Because then you wouldn't OWN the issue any more, and you'd have to find some other constituency to milk. Pathetic. It's all Clintons fault is the mindset from the WH and Bushies these days. Seems we have a hard time getting this WH to own any issues also. Strange how that works. Pitiful! |
Bush Blunders Taking a Toll
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Bush Blunders Taking a Toll
"____m___~¿Ô___m____" wrote in message ref my earlier post re your credibility. |
Bush Blunders Taking a Toll
John Gaquin wrote:
"____m___~¿Ô___m____" wrote in message ref my earlier post re your credibility. You mean your denial. I only answered your post that had no credibility. -- _______m___õ¿~___m_________________________ "Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away". --George Carlin-- |
Bush Blunders Taking a Toll
John Gaquin wrote:
"____m___~¿Ô___m____" wrote in message ref my earlier post re your credibility. According to Rumsfeld, we haven't seen the worst acts of torture and degradation inflicted by US soldiers on Iraqi prisoners. Stick that up your denials, Gaquin. |
Bush Blunders Taking a Toll
"Harry Krause" wrote in message news:2g3qjoF450haU1@uni- According to Rumsfeld, we haven't seen the worst acts of torture and degradation inflicted by US soldiers on Iraqi prisoners. Stick that up your denials, Gaquin. Crude response, but not atypical, Harry. Actually, if you read carefully you'll find that what Rumsfeld actually said is that there are more photos and tapes of the crimes already committed at abu Ghraib that are already the subject of reports and investigation. Of course, this in no way ameliorates the situation, but nor does it exacerbate it. Taking one hundred pictures of a train wreck instead of fifteen pictures does not mean there were more train wrecks. But it does mean that those who don't pay attention can be made to think that there were more train wrecks, if someone wants to convince them of that. If you also read the Taguba report, two things are clear. 1) The leadership, training, and command oversight within the 800 MP Brigade was seriously deficient. The Brigade in general was ill prepared for its responsibilities in Iraq. This, however, does not cause wanton prisoner abuse. The Taguba report specifically references a number of units and individuals within the 800th that overcame the challenges and performed in an exemplary fashion. I have not seen this mentioned in any press coverage. 2) The 800th MP Brigade comprised some 8 MP Battalions. Both prisoner abuse events -- the Oct-Nov multiple incidents at abu Ghraib and the May 2003 incident at Camp Bucca (for which 4 soldiers have already been charged and, I think, tried)-- involved members of the same unit, the 320th MP Battalion. All MP soldiers involved in the abu Ghraib incidents were from a smaller group within the 320th, members of the 372nd MP Co. All prisoner abuse actions appear to have occurred involving MP soldiers operating in conjunction military intelligence operatives, specifically from the 205th MI Brigade. The press gives little or no attention to the fact that the abuses in question were initially reported by soldiers within the very units, and that the command initiated investigations immediately. The command simultaneously issued a public press release stating that they were investigating allegations of prisoner abuse. There was no cover-up here, although one is widely implied in the press coverage. When the report is read and all is said and done, you still have what I referred to earlier -- a few dozen people drawn into the maelstrom, while 99.9% behave honorably and well. Will that change with possible additional revelations? Possibly. The Red Cross report is an unknown factor, until they release details. The IRC has been known to define both beatings and slow mail delivery as prisoner abuse. They sometimes seem to start with the premise that there is presumed abuse by virtue of incarceration, and grade downward from there. But if you have ten times the troop abuse involvement in Iraq, it will remain a statistical aberration. A political and PR bonanza for the press and the DNC, who have been hoping for just such an event, but a statistical aberration nonetheless. Those who deal in facts instead of feelings can see this. |
Bush Blunders Taking a Toll
On Sun, 09 May 2004 14:33:14 -0400, John Gaquin wrote:
Actually, if you read carefully you'll find that what Rumsfeld actually said is that there are more photos and tapes of the crimes already committed at abu Ghraib that are already the subject of reports and investigation. "In two tense congressional hearings that attracted Pentagon brass and war protesters, Rumsfeld warned that unreleased videos and photos depict far worse treatment of Iraqis than the widely distributed pictures of naked detainees in humiliating poses that spawned worldwide outrage recently." "We're talking about rape and murder here, we're not just talking about giving people a humiliating experience," said Sen. Lindsay Graham, R-S.C., a member of the Armed Services Committee. From: http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/8616398.htm?1c Look, I'll agree that the vast majority of our soldiers are doing an admirable job, but this mess is still quite troubling. While failed leadership has a role, and the training of these particular soldiers can be brought in to question, I keep reading about these soldiers being asked to "soften" the detainees for interrogation. If this is true, it is a systemic failure that needs to be addressed. |
Bush Blunders Taking a Toll
"thunder" wrote in message Look, I'll agree that the vast majority of our soldiers are doing an admirable job, but this mess is still quite troubling. While failed leadership has a role, and the training of these particular soldiers can be brought in to question, I keep reading about these soldiers being asked to "soften" the detainees for interrogation. If this is true, it is a systemic failure that needs to be addressed. I agree wholeheartedly. The assigned mission of the MP units was internment and resettlement. There should be no mixing of this with intelligence and interrogation functions. The MI units should conduct these procedures exclusively, subject to the rules and procedures that apply to high value, security, and intelligence detainees -- which may well include standard procedures to yield more compliant interrogation. This is, after all, a war, and not a job interview. Having said that, I don't think anything we saw in the photos or have heard described in additional allegations is considered acceptable procedure. It is worth reiterating that only those small MP units whose functions got mixed with the intelligence units appear to be involved with the prisoner abuse. I would apply the following caveat: The Taguba report refers to "systemic failures." When the term "systemic failure" is used in a report of this kind, the meaning is that the command and oversight structure either failed or was improperly organized from the start. When the term "systemic failure" is used in news reports, it is done [intentionally, I believe] knowing that the majority of readers/listeners will misinterpret it to mean that the whole system is involved with the abuse, that the events are occuring throughout the country. This simply is not true, but the news sources make no effort to clarify this point. I refer particularly to American and European news sources. I expect nothing but propaganda from mid-east news sources, and to date have been neither disappointed nor surprised. Don't misunderstand my position. I do not defend the actions of these soldiers with prisoners. I only want to stick to facts as we know them. Right now the US press is ginning up a feeding frenzy, having found a fissure in the Bush campaign. They would do well to remember that when sharks go into a frenzy, it is common for several of the sharks to get eaten in the chaos. The press must guard against a similar level of enthusiastic accuracy. |
Bush Blunders Taking a Toll
John Gaquin wrote:
"Harry Krause" wrote in message news:2g3qjoF450haU1@uni- According to Rumsfeld, we haven't seen the worst acts of torture and degradation inflicted by US soldiers on Iraqi prisoners. Stick that up your denials, Gaquin. Crude response, but not atypical, Harry. Actually, if you read carefully you'll find that what Rumsfeld actually said is that there are more photos and tapes of the crimes already committed at abu Ghraib that are already the subject of reports and investigation. Of course, this in no way ameliorates the situation, but nor does it exacerbate it. Taking one hundred pictures of a train wreck instead of fifteen pictures does not mean there were more train wrecks. But it does mean that those who don't pay attention can be made to think that there were more train wrecks, if someone wants to convince them of that. If you also read the Taguba report, two things are clear. 1) The leadership, training, and command oversight within the 800 MP Brigade was seriously deficient. The deficiencies in leadership in this country go all the way to the top. The buck stops on Bush's desk. |
Bush Blunders Taking a Toll
"Harry Krause" wrote in message ... John Gaquin wrote: "Harry Krause" wrote in message news:2g3qjoF450haU1@uni- According to Rumsfeld, we haven't seen the worst acts of torture and degradation inflicted by US soldiers on Iraqi prisoners. Stick that up your denials, Gaquin. Crude response, but not atypical, Harry. Actually, if you read carefully you'll find that what Rumsfeld actually said is that there are more photos and tapes of the crimes already committed at abu Ghraib that are already the subject of reports and investigation. Of course, this in no way ameliorates the situation, but nor does it exacerbate it. Taking one hundred pictures of a train wreck instead of fifteen pictures does not mean there were more train wrecks. But it does mean that those who don't pay attention can be made to think that there were more train wrecks, if someone wants to convince them of that. If you also read the Taguba report, two things are clear. 1) The leadership, training, and command oversight within the 800 MP Brigade was seriously deficient. The deficiencies in leadership in this country go all the way to the top. The buck stops on Bush's desk. Was Clinton responsible for the savage deaths of postal workers by fellow postal employees in the 1990's? By your twisted logic, he should have been. The buck stopped at Clintons desk, didn't it?. |
Bush Blunders Taking a Toll
jim-- wrote:
"Harry Krause" wrote in message ... John Gaquin wrote: "Harry Krause" wrote in message news:2g3qjoF450haU1@uni- According to Rumsfeld, we haven't seen the worst acts of torture and degradation inflicted by US soldiers on Iraqi prisoners. Stick that up your denials, Gaquin. Crude response, but not atypical, Harry. Actually, if you read carefully you'll find that what Rumsfeld actually said is that there are more photos and tapes of the crimes already committed at abu Ghraib that are already the subject of reports and investigation. Of course, this in no way ameliorates the situation, but nor does it exacerbate it. Taking one hundred pictures of a train wreck instead of fifteen pictures does not mean there were more train wrecks. But it does mean that those who don't pay attention can be made to think that there were more train wrecks, if someone wants to convince them of that. If you also read the Taguba report, two things are clear. 1) The leadership, training, and command oversight within the 800 MP Brigade was seriously deficient. The deficiencies in leadership in this country go all the way to the top. The buck stops on Bush's desk. Was Clinton responsible for the savage deaths of postal workers by fellow postal employees in the 1990's? By your twisted logic, he should have been. The buck stopped at Clintons desk, didn't it?. Duh...Bush is, god help us, CiC. The US Postal Service is a semi-private corporation, with its own leader who is accountable to the postal board of governors, not the POTUS. BUSH is responsible for the horrendous acts our troops perpetrated on POWs. He is the CiC. The buck stops on his desk. |
Bush Blunders Taking a Toll
Harry Krause wrote:
jim-- wrote: "Harry Krause" wrote in message \ BTW, Dennis, caught two really plump flounder today over on the Eastern Shore, right near the Choptank River. Only fished for about an hour, went cruising in that area for most of the day. Michener wrote about the area in a pretty good historical novel called "Chesapeake." Hmmmmm. I'll have to see what I can find in the bookstore, novelwise, about Cleveland. |
Bush Blunders Taking a Toll
"Harry Krause" wrote in message ... jim-- wrote: "Harry Krause" wrote in message ... John Gaquin wrote: "Harry Krause" wrote in message news:2g3qjoF450haU1@uni- According to Rumsfeld, we haven't seen the worst acts of torture and degradation inflicted by US soldiers on Iraqi prisoners. Stick that up your denials, Gaquin. Crude response, but not atypical, Harry. Actually, if you read carefully you'll find that what Rumsfeld actually said is that there are more photos and tapes of the crimes already committed at abu Ghraib that are already the subject of reports and investigation. Of course, this in no way ameliorates the situation, but nor does it exacerbate it. Taking one hundred pictures of a train wreck instead of fifteen pictures does not mean there were more train wrecks. But it does mean that those who don't pay attention can be made to think that there were more train wrecks, if someone wants to convince them of that. If you also read the Taguba report, two things are clear. 1) The leadership, training, and command oversight within the 800 MP Brigade was seriously deficient. The deficiencies in leadership in this country go all the way to the top. The buck stops on Bush's desk. Was Clinton responsible for the savage deaths of postal workers by fellow postal employees in the 1990's? By your twisted logic, he should have been. The buck stopped at Clintons desk, didn't it?. Duh...Bush is, god help us, CiC. The US Postal Service is a semi-private corporation, with its own leader who is accountable to the postal board of governors, not the POTUS. BUSH is responsible for the horrendous acts our troops perpetrated on POWs. He is the CiC. The buck stops on his desk. Sorry jacko, the Postal Service is not independent of the US Government and is subject to laws executed by the President and Executive Branch. Duh. |
Bush Blunders Taking a Toll
"Harry Krause" wrote in message ... Harry Krause wrote: jim-- wrote: "Harry Krause" wrote in message \ BTW, Dennis, caught two really plump flounder today over on the Eastern Shore, right near the Choptank River. Only fished for about an hour, went cruising in that area for most of the day. Michener wrote about the area in a pretty good historical novel called "Chesapeake." Hmmmmm. I'll have to see what I can find in the bookstore, novelwise, about Cleveland. Good for you. I am happy for you. Too bad you don't know about Cleveland. I will chalk it up to pure ignorance on your part. But the town is far better off without the likes of you. It takes a real moron to try to insult someone based on the city they live in. But then again, you are a moron so I would not expect anything differently from you. |
Bush Blunders Taking a Toll
On Sun, 09 May 2004 17:00:02 -0400, John Gaquin wrote:
Don't misunderstand my position. I do not defend the actions of these soldiers with prisoners. I only want to stick to facts as we know them. Right now the US press is ginning up a feeding frenzy, having found a fissure in the Bush campaign. They would do well to remember that when sharks go into a frenzy, it is common for several of the sharks to get eaten in the chaos. The press must guard against a similar level of enthusiastic accuracy. While not defending their actions, I somehow feel we have failed these soldiers. I believe the soldier to be tried shortly was a reservist, trained as a truck driver. His lack of training, and the Army's lack of leadership is a failure not of his making. He should never have been in that situation without the proper training. The speed of his trial being scheduled, also, unfortunately, signals to me, scapegoat. The Army has already, apparently, convicted a soldier of homicide. His punishment was demoting to private, and a dishonorable discharge, *no* jail time, but that flew under the press' radar. The press is the press. With all it's failings, I question if any of this would have come to light if it hadn't been for the press. |
Bush Blunders Taking a Toll
"thunder" wrote in message The press is the press. With all it's failings, I question if any of this would have come to light if it hadn't been for the press. That's the conventional wisdom, and no one offers a correction. The fact is that the allegations came from within the Army, the investigation was launched by the Army, and the fact of the allegations and the investigation was publicized by the Army in a press statement within days of the allegations being made. The Army investigated and the report started moving up the line, as is its wont, in April. The only reason the press even noticed was because one of those nimrods was stupid enough to post pictures on the web. Our press has effected some brilliant investigative journalism over the years, but this ain't part of it. |
Bush Blunders Taking a Toll
"Harry Krause" wrote in message news:2g7l0sF5bg01U1@uni- The deficiencies in leadership in this country go all the way to the top. The buck stops on Bush's desk. Typical. Irrelevant in the instance, but typical. |
Bush Blunders Taking a Toll
"Harry Krause" wrote in Hmmmmm. I'll have to see what I can find in the bookstore, novelwise, about Cleveland. They had to stop selling it...put everyone to sleep. |
Bush Blunders Taking a Toll
On Sun, 9 May 2004 17:00:02 -0400, "John Gaquin"
wrote: "thunder" wrote in message Look, I'll agree that the vast majority of our soldiers are doing an admirable job, but this mess is still quite troubling. While failed leadership has a role, and the training of these particular soldiers can be brought in to question, I keep reading about these soldiers being asked to "soften" the detainees for interrogation. If this is true, it is a systemic failure that needs to be addressed. I agree wholeheartedly. The assigned mission of the MP units was internment and resettlement. There should be no mixing of this with intelligence and interrogation functions. The MI units should conduct these procedures exclusively, subject to the rules and procedures that apply to high value, security, and intelligence detainees -- which may well include standard procedures to yield more compliant interrogation. This is, after all, a war, and not a job interview. Having said that, I don't think anything we saw in the photos or have heard described in additional allegations is considered acceptable procedure. It is worth reiterating that only those small MP units whose functions got mixed with the intelligence units appear to be involved with the prisoner abuse. I would apply the following caveat: The Taguba report refers to "systemic failures." When the term "systemic failure" is used in a report of this kind, the meaning is that the command and oversight structure either failed or was improperly organized from the start. When the term "systemic failure" is used in news reports, it is done [intentionally, I believe] knowing that the majority of readers/listeners will misinterpret it to mean that the whole system is involved with the abuse, that the events are occuring throughout the country. This simply is not true, but the news sources make no effort to clarify this point. I refer particularly to American and European news sources. I expect nothing but propaganda from mid-east news sources, and to date have been neither disappointed nor surprised. Don't misunderstand my position. I do not defend the actions of these soldiers with prisoners. I only want to stick to facts as we know them. Right now the US press is ginning up a feeding frenzy, having found a fissure in the Bush campaign. They would do well to remember that when sharks go into a frenzy, it is common for several of the sharks to get eaten in the chaos. The press must guard against a similar level of enthusiastic accuracy. FWIW, the European press and TV are not making near the spectacle of the situation that the major US media are making. Even my friends in Holland thought CNN, which shows over there, was going way overboard with the frequency of airing the photographs. John H On the 'Poco Loco' out of Deale, MD on the beautiful Chesapeake Bay! |
Bush Blunders Taking a Toll
On Sun, 09 May 2004 19:26:08 -0400, John Gaquin wrote:
"thunder" wrote in message The press is the press. With all it's failings, I question if any of this would have come to light if it hadn't been for the press. That's the conventional wisdom, and no one offers a correction. The fact is that the allegations came from within the Army, the investigation was launched by the Army, and the fact of the allegations and the investigation was publicized by the Army in a press statement within days of the allegations being made. The Army investigated and the report started moving up the line, as is its wont, in April. The only reason the press even noticed was because one of those nimrods was stupid enough to post pictures on the web. Our press has effected some brilliant investigative journalism over the years, but this ain't part of it. Yeah, but, the Red Cross had repeatedly warned the Bush administration about abuse for over a year. I'll agree this isn't great investigative journalism, but if it weren't for the press, we wouldn't have known, Congress wouldn't have known (or at least could have pretended not to know), and Bush might not have seen the pictures. |
Bush Blunders Taking a Toll
"Harry Krause" wrote in message news:2g7lr6F5dsedU4@uni- BTW, Dennis, caught two really plump flounder today over on the Eastern Shore, right near the Choptank River. Only fished for about an hour, went cruising in that area for most of the day. Michener wrote about the area in a pretty good historical novel called "Chesapeake." Hmmmmm. I'll have to see what I can find in the bookstore, novelwise, about Cleveland. With your track record of making up stories to post in rec.boat, the odds are you or the doctor doctor did not any fish. Tell us about your Hatteras with a satellite modem and the Lobster Boat with get home power. |
Bush Blunders Taking a Toll
jim-- wrote:
"Harry Krause" wrote in message ... Harry Krause wrote: jim-- wrote: "Harry Krause" wrote in message \ BTW, Dennis, caught two really plump flounder today over on the Eastern Shore, right near the Choptank River. Only fished for about an hour, went cruising in that area for most of the day. Michener wrote about the area in a pretty good historical novel called "Chesapeake." Hmmmmm. I'll have to see what I can find in the bookstore, novelwise, about Cleveland. Good for you. I am happy for you. Too bad you don't know about Cleveland. I will chalk it up to pure ignorance on your part. But the town is far better off without the likes of you. It takes a real moron to try to insult someone based on the city they live in. But then again, you are a moron so I would not expect anything differently from you. I've been to Cleveland. It suits you. |
Bush Blunders Taking a Toll
John Gaquin wrote:
"thunder" wrote in message The press is the press. With all it's failings, I question if any of this would have come to light if it hadn't been for the press. That's the conventional wisdom, and no one offers a correction. The fact is that the allegations came from within the Army, the investigation was launched by the Army, and the fact of the allegations and the investigation was publicized by the Army in a press statement within days of the allegations being made. The Army investigated and the report started moving up the line, as is its wont, in April. The only reason the press even noticed was because one of those nimrods was stupid enough to post pictures on the web. Our press has effected some brilliant investigative journalism over the years, but this ain't part of it. \ The fact is that you and all the other pro-Bush asswipes would prefer a state-controlled press. |
Bush Blunders Taking a Toll
Don White wrote:
"Harry Krause" wrote in Hmmmmm. I'll have to see what I can find in the bookstore, novelwise, about Cleveland. They had to stop selling it...put everyone to sleep. The best thing about Cleveland was George Szell. |
Bush Blunders Taking a Toll
"Harry Krause" wrote in message news:2g89qvF5bse6U3@uni- \ The fact is that you and all the other pro-Bush asswipes would prefer a state-controlled press. Not at all; but I *would* prefer an objective and impartial press. |
Bush Blunders Taking a Toll
On Mon, 10 May 2004 00:13:52 -0400, John Gaquin wrote:
Not at all; but I *would* prefer an objective and impartial press. It's out there, mixed in with a non-objective and partial press. |
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