First, a dumb question (I know, there are no stupid questions, only
stupid people): What is a cuddy cabin?

Second, I'm looking at getting a boat for next season.

I'd like to spend under 10,000 TOTAL -- including registration,
insurance, fuel, launching, etc. Which means that the practical limit
is around 8K for a used boat, with 1K to outfit it with "stuff" -- life
vests, cheap skis, etc. Or a 3K boat and a season at the marina.

I have a lot of sailing and boating experience in California, mostly in
lakes, with some costal sailing experience also.

I live near Lake Michigan, so I am thinking Deep V or modified Deep V
for a hull type. I expect to take up to seven passengers (including me)
skiing, and a smaller number on overnight coastal trips. That means a
practical minimum of about 18' I think. My tow vehicle (Durango) is
limited to 4500 lbs, so that limits me to 23' max. I want it to be
seaworthy (i.e., safe), can pull novice skiiers and tubers, and --
ideally -- be capable of cruising 70 miles across Lake Michigan to
Chicago.

I'm not interested in Bayliner. OK I'm interested, but I know better.
Sea Ray and Chris Craft seem to be popular brands I know.

How should I do this?

Third, what is the value of these online boating classes?

First, a dumb question (I know, there are no stupid questions, only
stupid people): What is a cuddy cabin?

Rudimentary accommodations under the foredeck.

I'd like to spend under 10,000 TOTAL -- including registration,
insurance, fuel, launching, etc. Which means that the practical limit
is around 8K for a used boat, with 1K to outfit it with "stuff" -- life
vests, cheap skis, etc. Or a 3K boat and a season at the marina.

Oh oh. High on the list of the most expensive things you could possibly buy
would be a cheap used boat. If you spend $8k for a used boat, allow more than
$2k for insurance, fuel, launching, etc. I'd start by allowing $2k for repairs
alone, and hope that careful shopping kept the total needed down to that level.
(But that's just me.)

I live near Lake Michigan, so I am thinking Deep V or modified Deep V
for a hull type. I expect to take up to seven passengers (including me)
skiing, and a smaller number on overnight coastal trips. That means a
practical minimum of about 18'

Seven people overnighting on an 18-footer?
You should not be encouraged to believe this would be desirable or practical.

I think. My tow vehicle (Durango) is
limited to 4500 lbs, so that limits me to 23' max. I want it to be
seaworthy (i.e., safe), can pull novice skiiers and tubers, and --
ideally -- be capable of cruising 70 miles across Lake Michigan to
Chicago.

35 miles offshore with 7 people aboard?

You need a bigger boat. You need to spend more money. Or, you need to scale
back your ambitions a bit.



I'm not interested in Bayliner. OK I'm interested, but I know better.
Sea Ray and Chris Craft seem to be popular brands I know.

"Brand shopping" is much less important on a used boat than new. Especially if
you're dedicated to the $8k price range, you are going to be looking at some
very old boats. Get the boat that's in the best condition among the options you
can find, not the one that was originally sold under the most prestigious brand
name.

How should I do this?

Reexamine your priorities, ambitions, expectations, and budget to start with.
There are a few mismatches in the mix.

Third, what is the value of these online boating classes?

You can learn about the rules of the road, basic safety equipment, basic chart
work, elementary first aid, etc. You can even pass a test that says you're a
"boater" and maybe get a discount on insurance.
In some of the organizations that administer these tests, you can go on to be
an "instructor" without ever setting foot on a boat. I'd recommend the on-line
course, or a basic boating course conducted by the USCG Aux or the Power
Squadron, but remember when you're finished that you're still a "beginner" (as
are we all, to one degree or another). You will learn more in the first two or
three days you are out in your boat than you will in 2-3 months of
class......but that should not be interpreted as an opinion that the class work
isn't valuable.

wrote in message
...

First, a dumb question (I know, there are no stupid questions, only
stupid people):

Um......ok, never mind. ;)

What is a cuddy cabin?

Ah, well, it is generally considered a little covered space
ahead of the steering station. Usually a small V berth,
depending on the size of the boat, a chemical or portable toilet
is stored there for folk to use. Look at boats.com or eBay for
"cuddy cabin" and see what the different styles. Remember, a
center console can also have a smal berth along with a small
bathroom - I'm thinking of my Contender 32 here.

Second, I'm looking at getting a boat for next season.

A head start is always a good thing.

I'd like to spend under 10,000 TOTAL -- including registration,
insurance, fuel, launching, etc. Which means that the practical limit
is around 8K for a used boat, with 1K to outfit it with "stuff" -- life
vests, cheap skis, etc. Or a 3K boat and a season at the marina.

I have a lot of sailing and boating experience in California, mostly in
lakes, with some costal sailing experience also.

I live near Lake Michigan, so I am thinking Deep V or modified Deep V
for a hull type. I expect to take up to seven passengers (including me)
skiing, and a smaller number on overnight coastal trips. That means a
practical minimum of about 18' I think. My tow vehicle (Durango) is
limited to 4500 lbs, so that limits me to 23' max. I want it to be
seaworthy (i.e., safe), can pull novice skiiers and tubers, and --
ideally -- be capable of cruising 70 miles across Lake Michigan to
Chicago.

To my mind, you need to rethink a couple of things.

For one thing, towing a 23 foot boat with a Durango may be
a stretch. That 4,500 pounds is at the extreme limit of what
you CAN tow - doesn't mean that it will tow 4,500 pounds
comfortably or without any stress on the vehicle. Just pointing
that out - I'm not criticising Durangos, Fords, Chevies or any
other make/model. I am cricizing the way the manufacturers
market their vehicles for "towing" purposes. [1]

Secondly, seven passengers is a tight fit on an 18 foot boat
and somewhat better, but by no means significantly, on a 23
foot boat. Five people on my Contender is uncomfortable
and that's 32 feet long with a center console. Also consider
this - my inshore boat is a Ranger 200C (twenty foot center
console) and three people on that boat is about the comfortable
limit. I know somebody who has a boat like you are looking
for, a 1988 24 foot Marathon cruiser and I've been on it with
four people - I'll stay on shore thank you very much.

However, you have some time, so think about what it is
that you HAVE to have the boat do for you and list them
in priority most-to-least important. Then make a seperate
column for things you would LIKE it to do most-to-least
important.

This is important for a couple of reasons - it will pretty much
define the type of boat that you want for one thing and secondly,
will indicate how much you should be willing to spend achieving
the purchase.

What kind of power are you comfortable with - inboard with
outdrive, propeller/shaft driven or outboard.

Once you have developed a basic understanding of what it is
that you actually want, then everything else becomes easier.

I'm not interested in Bayliner. OK I'm interested, but I know better.
Sea Ray and Chris Craft seem to be popular brands I know.

You need to visit boats.com or iBoats.com and here are a
couple of links to some used/salvage companies in my area
to give you an idea of other brands.

http://www.northeastboatsales.com/

http://www.certifiedsales.com/itemsforsale.html


http://www2.yachtworld.com/core/list...ker&lin eonly

How should I do this?

See above.

Third, what is the value of these online boating classes?

As with anything, they are designed to give you a basic
understanding of boating and rules and regulations. However,
nothing beats a good old fashioned hands on USPS or USCG
Aux boating course done by those who know your waters and
marine situation. Here in CT we have a state run course which is
adequate - barely. You might want to try your state Registry or
DEP to see if they have state courses.

[1] The towing specs on most vehicles are misleading as they
don't take into account road conditions (like hills, rough roads,
braking, balance, etc) under real world conditions. The normal
towing specs are based on straight line, flat surface conditions
and not up/down a 4 percent grade for example. The advertising
you see about towing HUGE amounts of weight are BS - period.

I tow with a Ford F-250 Super Duty Diesel and will be glad to
tell you that is it adequate for both boats that I trailer - note
the
adequate.

You also have to consider launching and recovery when towing
a boat. If I had a dime for every boat w/trailer I've pulled up a
marginal ramp (or a damned good one for that matter) I'd be
richer by about $100 - it's not only traction that counts, it's
flat out yanking power.

The good news is that you can find good boats for less than
the money you are considering spending if you take your time,
develop a concept of what you REALLY need, and take your
time looking around. Remember not to be rash, make a good
judgment of your mechanical abilities and look for a boat.
If you find one, spend a couple of bucks and get a surveyor to
look it over - have a mechanic look at the engine, etc.

I know a guy who has a 23' Marathon, V berth, full (small) bath
small refrig and kitchen stove, outdrive with Mercruiser for $4,900,
spent $600 on new heads for the motor and loves it. Then again,
he looked around, took his time, visited quite a few boat dealers
and marinas/shows, developed a concept and found his boat.

Good luck on this - wish you all the best.

Take care.

Tom

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
"Gould 0738" wrote in message
...


I live near Lake Michigan, so I am thinking Deep V or modified Deep V
for a hull type. I expect to take up to seven passengers (including
me)
skiing, and a smaller number on overnight coastal trips. That means a
practical minimum of about 18'

Seven people overnighting on an 18-footer?
You should not be encouraged to believe this would be desirable or
practical.

By the time he adds proper PFDs for a long trip for 7 people, he won't
have
room for much else on an 18 ft boat.

Well, at least he wouldn't sink.

Get it - PFDs - sink?

Never mind.

"Rural Knight" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...

By the time he adds proper PFDs for a long trip for 7 people, he won't
have
room for much else on an 18 ft boat.

Well, at least he wouldn't sink.

Get it - PFDs - sink?

Never mind.


snare drum crash "Hey....is this an audience, or an oil painting?" -Henny
Youngman

On Wed, 30 Jul 2003 16:49:48 -0400,
(Dionysus Feldman) wrote:

OK, it's rude to followup on one's own post but...

- Long trips/costal overnights would include far less people (just me
and my SO).
- Seven people is two children, two step children, one step-niece (10 -
15 years old) and two adults. If it's crowded we ski near a beach where
the non-skiiers can hang.

Like anyone in my shoes, looking at old used boats sounds like a good
idea. Here's an example:

http://adcache.boattraderonline.com/6/8/2/51097782.htm

"1983 SEA RAY 225 CC, 22' 6'' 228HP mERCRUISER, DEPTH FINDER, COMPASS,
REMOTE SPOTLIGHT, TRIM TABS, CUSTOM TANDEM TRAILER RUNS GREAT" $6500

So tell me why that's a problem. I mean if there weren't problems,
everyone would do it, right?

I'm trailering the boat a few miles at most (I'm 3 miles from the launch
in South Haven), and on 55mph flat highways (if I choose to use it on an
inland lake). I'm not trailering on I-80 to Lake Tahoe. So I'm not
worried about being underpowered, as long as it has brakes on the
trailer. I've towed a 1700 lb popup with a 4cyl 88 Montero across the
country, so I know what being underpowered is like.


DF- you seem to be on the right track. You *will* need some size
(more than 18') if you want a cuddy cabin that will also contain all
those kids. ) A bowrider offers more seating, but you lose the
sleeping accomodations, unless you buy a boat with a bimini top and
"full covers".

I would also suggest that you not bother with anything under 150hp for
an outboard, and 200hp for an inboard. More is better in this case.

I wouldn't rule out Bayliner. They are normally a serviceable,
entry-level boat. You could get the size you need, in the price range
you can afford. As with any used boat, inspect with care before
buying, and get a survey, if you can afford it, before you actually
buy. Put on your "Sherlock Holmes" hat, and look for hidden problems.

Your expectations aren't unreasonable, with the possible exception of
the 70 mile cruise. Open water conditions are often much more
intimidating than taking the kids for a good time, and the Great Lakes
are known for rapidly changing conditions. If you will be in sight of
shore for the trip, go for it. A marine radio would be a good idea.

Put in some time actually looking at "boats for sale", and talk to
anyone you know who owns a boat. The more time you spend, the more
you will get a handle on prices, and on the right boat for you.

Good luck,
noah

Courtesy of Lee Yeaton,
See the boats of rec.boats
www.TheBayGuide.com/rec.boats

Take a look:
http://loricase.com/boat/

Located in Indianapolis, IN

Dude, follow my lead, there are PLENTY of nice older boats out there,
you just have'ta find 'em. We did, so can you. I wallowed in the boat
search sites for almost a year until I concluded that most are not
good deals at all.

Our total budget was right around what yours is, and we haven't come
close to it yet, and are cruising, fishing, and having a GREAT time on
Lake Champlain.

Granted, my 9'6" beam would be a problem for a non-professional driver
to take down the road, but it hasn't proved so for us, yet. (It might
later, depending on if I decide to actually permit it!)

Our boat weighs 4500 dry, so it's too much for your Durango, because
you have to add fuel, water, gear, and don't forget the weight of all
the stuff in the Durango, like people!

My point, there are plenty of deals near you, but BE CAREFUL, and by
all means, get a survey.

Here's the link to our gem, a '74 Trojan Sea Raider 25 footer:

www.picturetrail.com/sixbennetts

Donny

Rural Knight wrote:

"Donny" wrote in message
news
Dude, follow my lead, there are PLENTY of nice older boats out there,
you just have'ta find 'em. We did, so can you. I wallowed in the boat
search sites for almost a year until I concluded that most are not
good deals at all.

Our total budget was right around what yours is, and we haven't come
close to it yet, and are cruising, fishing, and having a GREAT time on
Lake Champlain.

Granted, my 9'6" beam would be a problem for a non-professional driver
to take down the road, but it hasn't proved so for us, yet. (It might
later, depending on if I decide to actually permit it!)

I was just going to ask how you got away with that. ;)



Our Parker 2520XL has a 9'6" beam. I don't like pulling a trailer, but I
have hauled the boat about a bit. It's not a problem. If I were going to
haul the boat around regularly, I'd get a permit from the State of
Maryland, but the place where we keep the boat is so convenient, I'm
thinking of selling off the new trailer.


--
* * *
email sent to will *never* get to me.

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Rural Knight wrote:

"Donny" wrote in message
news
Dude, follow my lead, there are PLENTY of nice older boats out there,
you just have'ta find 'em. We did, so can you. I wallowed in the boat
search sites for almost a year until I concluded that most are not
good deals at all.

Our total budget was right around what yours is, and we haven't come
close to it yet, and are cruising, fishing, and having a GREAT time on
Lake Champlain.

Granted, my 9'6" beam would be a problem for a non-professional driver
to take down the road, but it hasn't proved so for us, yet. (It might
later, depending on if I decide to actually permit it!)

I was just going to ask how you got away with that. ;)

Our Parker 2520XL has a 9'6" beam. I don't like pulling a trailer, but I
have hauled the boat about a bit. It's not a problem. If I were going to
haul the boat around regularly, I'd get a permit from the State of
Maryland, but the place where we keep the boat is so convenient, I'm
thinking of selling off the new trailer.

Well, don't get caught in CT - $700 fine and the SP/DMV Traffic Squad
will stop you. My Ranger trailer is just under at 106 inches and I've
been stopped twice to have the trailer inspected and weighed in the
year I've owned the boat.

It's a pain in the.....well, let's just leave it at that. ;)

Later,

Tom