On Mon, 22 Mar 2004 03:55:27 GMT, Peggie Hall
wrote:
IMO, you have it backwards...a Lectra/San requires far LESS maintenance
than a holding tank--no vents to keep clear, no need for any odor
elimination management...no sludge buildup...no macerator pump with an
impeller that can fail at sea when the tank is full because you either
haven't changed it in 5 years or forgot to turn it off as soon as the
tank was empty. The only maintenance a Lectra/San needs to keep running
reliably for about 20 years is a solution of muriatic acid according to
directions once or twice a year.
==================================

Peggie, thanks for the reply. I was under the impression, perhaps
incorrectly, that a holding tank was still required for the output of
the Lectra/San in order to comply with no discharge areas. Is that
incorrect?

Wayne.B wrote:
On Mon, 22 Mar 2004 03:55:27 GMT, Peggie Hall
wrote:

IMO, you have it backwards...a Lectra/San requires far LESS maintenance
than a holding tank--no vents to keep clear, no need for any odor
elimination management...no sludge buildup...no macerator pump with an
impeller that can fail at sea when the tank is full because you either
haven't changed it in 5 years or forgot to turn it off as soon as the
tank was empty. The only maintenance a Lectra/San needs to keep running
reliably for about 20 years is a solution of muriatic acid according to
directions once or twice a year.

==================================

Peggie, thanks for the reply. I was under the impression, perhaps
incorrectly, that a holding tank was still required for the output of
the Lectra/San in order to comply with no discharge areas. Is that
incorrect?

You're correct that waste must go into a tank in "no discharge" waters.
However, whether it's been treated first is irrelevant...once waste goes
into a tank, it's no longer considered treated waste. The real question
is, how likely are you to ever be in any "no discharge" waters?
Contrary to what many believe, 90% of US coastal waters are not. Except
for some small harbors, there are none between RI and the FL Keys on the
east coast, none north of Santa Barbara on the west coast, and only
Destin Harbor in the Gulf. So unless you plan to put the boat on the
Great Lakes--which are all totally "no discharge," eliminating the
choice of installing anything but a holding tank--or in SoCal, RI or MA,
it would be wise to have at least a small tank in addition to a
Lectra/San, but it's unlikely that you'll use it much, if at all.


--
Peggie
----------
Peggie Hall
Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987
Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and
Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor"
http://www.seaworthy.com/html/get_ri...oat_odors.html

On Mon, 22 Mar 2004 16:41:43 GMT, Peggie Hall
wrote:
So unless you plan to put the boat on the
Great Lakes--which are all totally "no discharge," eliminating the
choice of installing anything but a holding tank--or in SoCal, RI or MA,
it would be wise to have at least a small tank in addition to a
Lectra/San, but it's unlikely that you'll use it much, if at all.
=========================

I spend quite a bit of time cruising in RI and MA, and occassionally
on the great lakes. Would you put the Y-valve to the holding tank
before or after the Lectra/san? I'm assuming "after" but I'm not
sure. That also raises the question about through hull fittings. Can
you pipe the output of the holding tank macerator to the same through
hull as the Lectra/san if you use check valves on both sides?

Wayne.B wrote:
I spend quite a bit of time cruising in RI and MA, and occassionally
on the great lakes. Would you put the Y-valve to the holding tank
before or after the Lectra/san?

Raritan prefers that it be after, on the theory that putting treated
waste in the tank is "healthier," but only one bacterium has to survive
and multiply to become zillions in a very short time, so it doesn't
really matter...put it where it's the most accessible.


That also raises the question about through hull fittings. Can
you pipe the output of the holding tank macerator to the same through
hull as the Lectra/san if you use check valves on both sides?

Yep. But I see no reason why you'd need check valves. The L/S discharges
by overflowing out the top, so it's unlikely that waste from the tank
would get into it, especially if you specify all the tank fittings on
the top of the tank, with a tube inside to the bottom on the discharge.
I'd also spec two discharge ports--one for pumpout, one for overboard
discharge. That eliminates a y-valve. And, I strongly recommend that you
go with an electric diaphragm pump--the SeaLand T-series--instead of an
impeller macerator. When impeller pumps aren't used much, the impeller
tends to have a high failure rate...it gets stuck to the inside of the
housing, the stress on the vanes when it's started again often cracks one.

However, in most waters where you'd have to use the tank, you'd prob'ly
have to use a pumpout anyway. In coastal "no discharge" waters where you
can get out to sea beyond the "3 mile limit" to dump the tank, you'll
soon be able to process it through the L/S. That's not possible now, but
Raritan has a system in development they claim should be available by
the end of the year that will make it possible, and can be retrofitted
to installed Lectra/Sans--at least to the current model...I'm not sure
about older ones.

--
Peggie
----------
Peggie Hall
Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987
Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and
Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor"
http://www.seaworthy.com/html/get_ri...oat_odors.html

Thanks again, it's always a pleasure discussing unpleasant subjects
with you. :-)

======================

On Mon, 22 Mar 2004 20:21:46 GMT, Peggie Hall
wrote:

Wayne.B wrote:
I spend quite a bit of time cruising in RI and MA, and occassionally
on the great lakes. Would you put the Y-valve to the holding tank
before or after the Lectra/san?

Raritan prefers that it be after, on the theory that putting treated
waste in the tank is "healthier," but only one bacterium has to survive
and multiply to become zillions in a very short time, so it doesn't
really matter...put it where it's the most accessible.


That also raises the question about through hull fittings. Can
you pipe the output of the holding tank macerator to the same through
hull as the Lectra/san if you use check valves on both sides?

Yep. But I see no reason why you'd need check valves. The L/S discharges
by overflowing out the top, so it's unlikely that waste from the tank
would get into it, especially if you specify all the tank fittings on
the top of the tank, with a tube inside to the bottom on the discharge.
I'd also spec two discharge ports--one for pumpout, one for overboard
discharge. That eliminates a y-valve. And, I strongly recommend that you
go with an electric diaphragm pump--the SeaLand T-series--instead of an
impeller macerator. When impeller pumps aren't used much, the impeller
tends to have a high failure rate...it gets stuck to the inside of the
housing, the stress on the vanes when it's started again often cracks one.

However, in most waters where you'd have to use the tank, you'd prob'ly
have to use a pumpout anyway. In coastal "no discharge" waters where you
can get out to sea beyond the "3 mile limit" to dump the tank, you'll
soon be able to process it through the L/S. That's not possible now, but
Raritan has a system in development they claim should be available by
the end of the year that will make it possible, and can be retrofitted
to installed Lectra/Sans--at least to the current model...I'm not sure
about older ones.

Wayne.B wrote:
Thanks again, it's always a pleasure discussing unpleasant subjects
with you. :-)

Any time. If you'd like to discuss specifics of your installation,
you're welcome to email: peg(dot)hall(at)sbcglobal(dot)net

Peggie
----------
Peggie Hall
Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987
Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and
Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor"
http://www.seaworthy.com/html/get_ri...oat_odors.html

On Mon, 22 Mar 2004 16:41:43 +0000, Peggie Hall wrote:



Wayne.B wrote:

Peggie, thanks for the reply. I was under the impression, perhaps
incorrectly, that a holding tank was still required for the output of the
Lectra/San in order to comply with no discharge areas. Is that incorrect?

You're correct that waste must go into a tank in "no discharge" waters. However,
whether it's been treated first is irrelevant...once waste goes into a tank,
it's no longer considered treated waste. The real question is, how likely are
you to ever be in any "no discharge" waters? Contrary to what many believe, 90%
of US coastal waters are not. Except for some small harbors, there are none
between RI and the FL Keys on the east coast, none north of Santa Barbara on the
west coast, and only Destin Harbor in the Gulf.

You forgot Puget Sound and the San Juan Islands: all strict No Discharge. Also
several bays and moorages in Georgia Strait, Desolation Sound, etc. in Western
Canada.

Lloyd Sumpter
"Far Cove" Catalina 36 - c/w 35 gal holding tank

You forgot Puget Sound and the San Juan Islands: all strict No Discharge. Also
several bays and moorages in Georgia Strait, Desolation Sound, etc. in Western
Canada.

Nooo...there are a number of "no discharge" small harbors in the San
Juans, but the discharge of TREATED waste from a CG Certified Type I or
II MSD is legal everywhere else in those waters.

I suspect you've made the same mistake that most boat owners do: that
"can't flush the toilet directly overboard or dump a tank any more"
means the same thing as "no discharge." It doesn't. However, because
most boat owners aren't aware that CG certified treatment devices even
exist, they mistakenly assume that laws prohibiting the discharge of raw
untreated sewage directly from the toilet or by dumping a tank are "no
discharge" laws...that the only legal option is a holding tank. And for
most boats under 30'--which are 95% of boats--a holding tank IS the only
option...not because they're the only legal option, but because few
boats under 30' have the power resources to support a treatment device
and/or their owners can't see spending upwards of $700 for one when they
can install a cheap holding tank for under $200. If their only option is
a holding tank, it must mean that a holding tank is the only option for
all boats...and if everyone has to have a holding tank, it must mean
that the waters are "no discharge."

Most people believe that almost all US waters are "no discharge, but
while the discharge of raw untreated waste is illegal in all US waters,
most coastal waters and inland rivers are not "NO discharge"...but most
boat owners believe they are. I know one boat owner on the Chesapeake
who bought a boat in FL equipped with a Lectra/San and removed it to
install a larger holding tank when he got it home because he thought the
whole Bay is "no discharge"...when in fact, there are only two small
harbors on the Bay that are...the discharge of treated waste is legal
everywhere else.

For a list of waters that actually ARE "no discharge," check out the EPA
site at
http://www.epa.gov/owow/oceans/regul...vsdnozone.html
They keep it up to date.

You really ought to consider installing a Lectra/San on your boat,
Lloyd...you'd love it...everyone who has one does.
--
Peggie
----------
Peggie Hall
Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987
Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and
Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor"
http://www.seaworthy.com/html/get_ri...oat_odors.html

On Tue, 23 Mar 2004 03:53:17 +0000, Peggie Hall wrote:

You forgot Puget Sound and the San Juan Islands: all strict No Discharge. Also
several bays and moorages in Georgia Strait, Desolation Sound, etc. in Western
Canada.

Nooo...there are a number of "no discharge" small harbors in the San Juans, but
the discharge of TREATED waste from a CG Certified Type I or II MSD is legal
everywhere else in those waters.


For a list of waters that actually ARE "no discharge," check out the EPA site at
http://www.epa.gov/owow/oceans/regul...vsdnozone.html They keep
it up to date.

You really ought to consider installing a Lectra/San on your boat, Lloyd...you'd
love it...everyone who has one does.

I may be mistaken about the San Juans (although when I had my boat in Pt Roberts
and sailed there extensivesly, I was TOLD it was NO DISCHARGE (ie you MUCH lock
your thru-hull closed, even if you have onboard treatment). I know the entire
Puget Sound IS "no discharge".

I also know that most harbours and bays in the Canadian Gulf Islands and Georgia
Strait ARE "no discharge". I would love to use onboard treatment like the
Lectra-San, but it's not legal in the waters I boat in.
http://wlapwww.gov.bc.ca/epd/epdpa/mpp/boat_sewage.html

(not up to date: most of the "under review" have been designated)

Remember, Peggie: not everyone boats in waters controlled by US law.

Lloyd Sumpter
"Far Cove" Catalina 36

I may be mistaken about the San Juans (although when I had my boat in Pt Roberts
and sailed there extensivesly, I was TOLD it was NO DISCHARGE (ie you MUCH lock
your thru-hull closed, even if you have onboard treatment). I know the entire
Puget Sound IS "no discharge".

Nope...it's not. See the EPA list in my previous post. There's only one
small "no discharge" zone in the whole state of WA--and it's only one
marina, so recently made one that it may not even be on the EPA list yet.

I also know that most harbours and bays in the Canadian Gulf Islands and Georgia
Strait ARE "no discharge". I would love to use onboard treatment like the
Lectra-San, but it's not legal in the waters I boat in.

http://wlapwww.gov.bc.ca/epd/epdpa/mpp/boat_sewage.html

(not up to date: most of the "under review" have been designated)



This IS an up to date list, showing those that actually have been
designated...not nearly as many as were proposed:

http://www.pacific.ccg-gcc.gc.ca/obs...as/index_e.htm

But even had the entire proposed list been designated, note that the
first 12 bodies of water on it are all inland lakes, not coastal
waters...and if you plot those in coastal waters, you'll see that
they're all very small harbors and/or very limited areas off federal
parks...not nearly as extensive as the first appear by just reading the
headers.

Remember, Peggie: not everyone boats in waters controlled by US law.

I know...and because in your part of the world, many US boats travel in
and out of Canadian waters, I keep up to date on what's happening in
Canada too.

Because there are some "no discharge" harbors that are also very popular
anchorages, it would not be wise to replace a holding tank altogether
with a Lectra/San...but having both usually means you can get by with a
much smaller tank than would be needed for full time use, while offering
increased freedom from having to find a pumpout while cruising in waters
that don't limit your choice to holding only.

--
Peggie
----------
Peggie Hall
Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987
Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and
Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor"
http://www.seaworthy.com/html/get_ri...oat_odors.html