Calif Bill wrote:

Seems like it has taken 700 years for the Mohammeden's (SP?) to return
to
try to control France. They are mostly out of Spain. Crusades did
remove
most of the Mohammeden's (as the Muslim's were know until about 1950)
from
Europe.


**************************

The Crusades (as in the invasion of the Holy Land) had nothing to do
with the expulsion of Muslims from Spain. The First Crusade was in 1095
CE, and the seventh and last traditionally recognized "crusade" was a
fait accompli before 1300 CE.

The Muslims dominated southern Spain until almost the begining of the
16th Century. The combined armies of Ferdinand and Isabella drove the
Moorish forces back across Gibralter into North Africa and the modern
nation of Spain was formed. In 1492, (a year we normally remember for
the voyage of Cristobal Colon), F & I expelled and/or (literally)
crucified an enormous percentage of the civilian populace. All gypsies,
Jews, and Muslims were ordered to publicly renounce their religions and
accept Christianity or get the heck out of Dodge. Those who stood by
their principles but were a bit slow to leave were murdered along with
those who totally defied the edict. One of the several political and
financial benefits of the expulsion was that all property that had
belonged to the expelled or crucified "heathens" escheated to the
crown.

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ps.com...
Calif Bill wrote:

Seems like it has taken 700 years for the Mohammeden's (SP?) to return
to
try to control France. They are mostly out of Spain. Crusades did
remove
most of the Mohammeden's (as the Muslim's were know until about 1950)
from
Europe.


**************************

The Crusades (as in the invasion of the Holy Land) had nothing to do
with the expulsion of Muslims from Spain. The First Crusade was in 1095
CE, and the seventh and last traditionally recognized "crusade" was a
fait accompli before 1300 CE.

The Muslims dominated southern Spain until almost the begining of the
16th Century. The combined armies of Ferdinand and Isabella drove the
Moorish forces back across Gibralter into North Africa and the modern
nation of Spain was formed. In 1492, (a year we normally remember for
the voyage of Cristobal Colon), F & I expelled and/or (literally)
crucified an enormous percentage of the civilian populace. All gypsies,
Jews, and Muslims were ordered to publicly renounce their religions and
accept Christianity or get the heck out of Dodge. Those who stood by
their principles but were a bit slow to leave were murdered along with
those who totally defied the edict. One of the several political and
financial benefits of the expulsion was that all property that had
belonged to the expelled or crucified "heathens" escheated to the
crown.


OK. Meanwhile, the Spanish spread their influence all over the world, and
they were NOT delivering girl scout cookies and schoolbooks. Europeans spent
hundreds of years annoying, dominating or killing people all over the globe.
What's your point?

OK. Meanwhile, the Spanish spread their influence all over the world,
and
they were NOT delivering girl scout cookies and schoolbooks. Europeans
spent
hundreds of years annoying, dominating or killing people all over the
globe.
What's your point?

**********************

My point was that the "Crusades" were not responsible for driving
Muslims from Spain, as Calif. Bill supposed.

The Crusades are being viewed in a new, more favorable light by a large
number of people on the conservative side of the fence these days.
"Historical precedent". No point in giving the Crusades more credit
than they deserve. :-)

I wonder how many of the war mongers waxing nostalgic over the
Crusades, (probably a few saying, "We should have finished the job in
1130!"), actually realize that in the grand scheme of all the wars and
invasions throughout the centuries the WE (western europeans) generally
got their butts kicked?

The Spanish monarchs, F&I, treated their non-Christian subjects
ruthlessly and in equitably. That's what drove the Muslim merchants,
artists, astronomers, philosophers and doctors out of Spain, after the
Muslim military had departed. It's surprising that the right wingers
don't hail the religious persecution, execution, and expulsion of
non-conformists as one of the most glorious events in western history.