"Doug Kanter" wrote in message news:RUuNb.935

......so Air Force recruiters here (Rochester) told him he couldn't
join. He ended up having his congressman investigate, and found there was
no
such exclusion for the job the kid was hoping for.

So what you had was a couple of recruiters who didn't know their stuff in
detail, which was an unfortunate occurrence for your friend's nephew. Your
earlier post made it sound as if such things were established general policy
among all the military services. That's not at all the same thing.

"John Gaquin" wrote in message
...

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
news:RUuNb.935

......so Air Force recruiters here (Rochester) told him he couldn't
join. He ended up having his congressman investigate, and found there
was
no
such exclusion for the job the kid was hoping for.

So what you had was a couple of recruiters who didn't know their stuff in
detail, which was an unfortunate occurrence for your friend's nephew.
Your
earlier post made it sound as if such things were established general
policy
among all the military services. That's not at all the same thing.



Of course it's not a written policy. But, it's a major source of fodder for
comedians, movie makers and quite a few former soldiers who know that the
military mentality is often centered around nonsensical layers of red tape
and inefficiency.

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message newsHxNb.946


Of course it's not a written policy. But, it's a major source of fodder
for
comedians, movie makers and quite a few former soldiers who know that the
military mentality is often centered around nonsensical layers of red tape
and inefficiency.

The "...military mentality...". Exactly what is that? An example of
exactly the kind of bias that some people find oh, so clever and
sophisticated, but aggravates the bejesus out of me. You will find as much
or probably more rigidity and tunnel-vision in *any* large bureaucracy [such
as the Dept. of the Interior, or Dept. HHS, for example] without nearly the
corresponding skill and benefit to our society as a whole. And yet, people
still love to toss out the derogatory lines about the military. Sad,
really.

"John Gaquin" wrote in message
...

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
newsHxNb.946


Of course it's not a written policy. But, it's a major source of fodder
for
comedians, movie makers and quite a few former soldiers who know that
the
military mentality is often centered around nonsensical layers of red
tape
and inefficiency.

The "...military mentality...". Exactly what is that? An example of
exactly the kind of bias that some people find oh, so clever and
sophisticated, but aggravates the bejesus out of me. You will find as
much
or probably more rigidity and tunnel-vision in *any* large bureaucracy
[such
as the Dept. of the Interior, or Dept. HHS, for example] without nearly
the
corresponding skill and benefit to our society as a whole. And yet,
people
still love to toss out the derogatory lines about the military. Sad,
really.



The "mentality" would sound like fiction if I hadn't been hearing about it
from my father since I was old enough to understand it. He spent 8 years in
the Navy beginning in 1941, flying a Grumman TBF Avenger (torpedo bomber).
He and his cohorts used to get flak for using too much small ammo. The
pilots' theory was that a little cannon fire caused Japanese ship side
gunners to get rattled, which bought the TBF Avengers the 30 seconds they
needed to get down nice and low and line up their gifts. The people who kept
track of the ammo didn't understand what it meant to be in warrior mode.

If the "mentality" exists in other government organizations, it's somewhat
less meaningful because it doesn't involve human lives. There's always a
place for people who are only comfortable in church committes, where the
blame for mistakes is diffused. But, it has no place in the military.

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message news:8BGNb.1332


If the "mentality" exists in other government organizations, it's somewhat
less meaningful because it doesn't involve human lives. There's always a
place for people who are only comfortable in church committes, where the
blame for mistakes is diffused. But, it has no place in the military.

Oh, I've heard the stories, too, from my Dad, and lived the stories in my
own experience from 70 to 74, but that doesn't alter the fact that it is
simply human nature at work. That's the whole point -- it isn't a "military
mentality", its just human nature. If you shoot up all the ammo, the guy
whose job it is to hump all the ammo has to work all the more. In the
office, if you take a lot of notes, the office supply person has to work
more to keep your area resupplied with spiral notebooks or floppies or
whatever. People entrenched in a bureaucracy almost always try to steer the
activity in such a way as to minimize their workload. That, of course,
conflicts with any number of other people who are trying to get something
done.

(snip)
The "mentality" would sound like fiction if I hadn't been hearing about it
from my father since I was old enough to understand it. He spent 8 years
in
the Navy beginning in 1941, flying a Grumman TBF Avenger (torpedo bomber).
He and his cohorts used to get flak for using too much small ammo. The
pilots' theory was that a little cannon fire caused Japanese ship side
gunners to get rattled, which bought the TBF Avengers the 30 seconds they
needed to get down nice and low and line up their gifts. The people who
kept
track of the ammo didn't understand what it meant to be in warrior mode.

If the "mentality" exists in other government organizations, it's somewhat
less meaningful because it doesn't involve human lives. There's always a
place for people who are only comfortable in church committes, where the
blame for mistakes is diffused. But, it has no place in the military.

So basically what you're saying is that you've never served in the military
and are relying on hearsay from 1 individual to form an opinion about the
entire organization? (No disrespect to your father, he's entitled to his
opinions). Well, I HAVE served in the military in a U.S. Marine infantry
unit. My opinion differs from yours.
--
-= swatcop =-

"If it wasn't for stupid people I'd be unemployed."

"swatcop" wrote in message
m...


If the "mentality" exists in other government organizations, it's
somewhat
less meaningful because it doesn't involve human lives. There's always a
place for people who are only comfortable in church committes, where the
blame for mistakes is diffused. But, it has no place in the military.

So basically what you're saying is that you've never served in the
military
and are relying on hearsay from 1 individual to form an opinion about the
entire organization? (No disrespect to your father, he's entitled to his
opinions). Well, I HAVE served in the military in a U.S. Marine infantry
unit. My opinion differs from yours.
--
-= swatcop =-

I believe the word "clusterfu*k" is most often used by ex-military people,
at least based on my experience with the word.

But in all fairness, I come to this discussion with a heavy load of bias.
When something needs to be done and I know I can do it, and someone puts a
list of prerequisite requirements between me and the task, I have a tendency
to check off most of the list very quickly as crap, if it does, in fact, fit
that category. And, I'm very vocal about it, which is why I haven't lasted
long in team-based jobs unless the team consisted of either two, or two.

I will say, however, that I'm far from unusual in that regard. Quite a few
effective people cannot function on a team, including a couple of the best
managers I've worked for. You know the type: "You think it's a good idea,
then just do it. You don't need to ask me. That's why I hired you. We think
alike".

Meanwhile, the committee disease is spread at a young age. Wanna here a
story about a Boy Scout trip from Rochester NY to Hershey PA (285 miles)
that took 11 hours because 3 knuckleheads wanted to drive as a convoy? :-)