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KMAN wrote: "Tinkerntom" wrote in message oups.com... KMAN wrote: "Tinkerntom" wrote in message oups.com... KMAN wrote: in article , KMAN at wrote on 2/28/05 12:59 AM: in article , Tinkerntom at wrote on 2/28/05 12:40 AM: KMAN wrote: in article et, rick at wrote on 2/27/05 5:10 PM: "KMAN" wrote in message ... in article , Tinkerntom snip.. Tinkerntom, I'm actually surprised that a man of your high moral stands has not jumped in to criticize rick for being a liar and a coward. Why is that? ================ MAybe for the simple reason that I have not lied. Of course, you cannot make the same claim. Why not at least back up one of your claims, fool? If just one Canadian died in a waiting line for health care it would be a national scandal featured on the front page of every newspaper and the lead story of every television and readio news program. It hasn't happened rick. You made it up. You are a liar. And a coward for refusing to admit it. To his credit, Tinkerntom has added his name to the list of those who have never seen you prove your claim. I Did? Where did I say such a thing? TnT Eh? Sorry, my mistake. When I first read... "I agree, that you claim, that he made the claim, and failed to support it. No mystery here after watching this squabble for the last week!" ...I missed out on the weasel words you threw in there. I guess you really are afraid of rick! While you are still up, Tinkerntom, let me see if you are not too big of a coward to give a straight answer. Have you seen rick provide any evidence to support a claim that Canadians are dying in waiting lines for health care? [] Yes [] No What if I vote, and I get a hanging chad? Do we call Katherine Harris, Jeb Bush, Florida Supreme Ct. or US Supreme Ct. to get this mess straightened out? TnT Coward! So what must I do to get off your Coward list, I'm waiting to hear? TnT Answer the question. It's not like I suddenly gave you a label with no foundation, Tinkerntom. You know exactly what this is about. Have you seen rick provide any evidence to support a claim that Canadians are dying in waiting lines for health care? [] Yes [] No Ok I'll try to answer you! Last night, I spent several hours going through the archives of this discussion, reading several hundred post by Kman, frtwz, Mike D, Wilko, Scott W, and of course our good friend rick. I do not know whether rick will abide by my arbitration in this matter though so I am not sure whether I should wait for him to agree. However, he did say in one of his post even this AM, that he stands by his record, and that he posted as he claims evidence of Canadians dying while on wait list for medical procedures and Tests. I am assuming also that being on a wait list is the same thing as being in a wait line. If they are different, I did not find any claim by rick that people are dying in an actual line while waiting, or evidence to support any such claim. However, on 2/20 at 9:32 Rick presented 4 links as evidence to support his claim that Canadians were dying while on wait list, and receiving late, slow, and inadequate medical procedures. That if a Canadian had the funding, that he could go to the USA and receive prompt medical attention, and that in Canada, such outsoursing was considered illegal, and subject to a substantial penalty. Rick was not comparing the advantages or disadvantages of the two systems, nor even saying that the American system was good at all. He was only commenting on the Canadian system that resulted in long wait times for certain procedures and tests that at times resulted in people dying before they could receive the medical attention that could have served to save their lives. He was not saying that once the people actually received the medical attention, that the medical practices themselves were inadequate or non-professional. The 4 links are as follow: http://www.nupge.ca/news_2000/News%20May/n12my00a.htm http://www.cato.org/dailys/07-24-04.html http://www.utoronto.ca/hpme/dhr/pdf/Barer-Lewis.pdf http://www.angelfire.com/pa/sergeman...oysplight.html The main objection to one of the links at the time was regarding the Frasier Institute, and its supposed backers, as being anti-Canadian medical system. Whether this is true or not, I can not determine. Rick also offered that there were many other links to support his claim, data that came from Canadian universites, labor unions, think tanks, that would not supposedly be anti-Canadian. He did not list any other specific link that I found. Regarding your question, unless there is a distinction between waiting list, and waiting lines, and irregardless of the credibility of the links provided as evidence, I believe that rick did provide evidence to support his claim. So my vote is yes, and I believe you KMAN owe rick a public apology. Now I hope this can bring and end to the acrimony, and I would note that though I believe rick provided the evidence, that I understand better after reading maybe a hundred post by him that his style can be abrasive. My only suggestion is that in the future if you want to avoid the abrasion, don't engage him in debate. TnT TnT |
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#2
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"Tinkerntom" wrote in message oups.com... KMAN wrote: "Tinkerntom" wrote in message oups.com... KMAN wrote: "Tinkerntom" wrote in message oups.com... KMAN wrote: in article , KMAN at wrote on 2/28/05 12:59 AM: in article , Tinkerntom at wrote on 2/28/05 12:40 AM: KMAN wrote: in article et, rick at wrote on 2/27/05 5:10 PM: "KMAN" wrote in message ... in article , Tinkerntom snip.. Tinkerntom, I'm actually surprised that a man of your high moral stands has not jumped in to criticize rick for being a liar and a coward. Why is that? ================ MAybe for the simple reason that I have not lied. Of course, you cannot make the same claim. Why not at least back up one of your claims, fool? If just one Canadian died in a waiting line for health care it would be a national scandal featured on the front page of every newspaper and the lead story of every television and readio news program. It hasn't happened rick. You made it up. You are a liar. And a coward for refusing to admit it. To his credit, Tinkerntom has added his name to the list of those who have never seen you prove your claim. I Did? Where did I say such a thing? TnT Eh? Sorry, my mistake. When I first read... "I agree, that you claim, that he made the claim, and failed to support it. No mystery here after watching this squabble for the last week!" ...I missed out on the weasel words you threw in there. I guess you really are afraid of rick! While you are still up, Tinkerntom, let me see if you are not too big of a coward to give a straight answer. Have you seen rick provide any evidence to support a claim that Canadians are dying in waiting lines for health care? [] Yes [] No What if I vote, and I get a hanging chad? Do we call Katherine Harris, Jeb Bush, Florida Supreme Ct. or US Supreme Ct. to get this mess straightened out? TnT Coward! So what must I do to get off your Coward list, I'm waiting to hear? TnT Answer the question. It's not like I suddenly gave you a label with no foundation, Tinkerntom. You know exactly what this is about. Have you seen rick provide any evidence to support a claim that Canadians are dying in waiting lines for health care? [] Yes [] No Ok I'll try to answer you! Last night, I spent several hours going through the archives of this discussion, reading several hundred post by Kman, frtwz, Mike D, Wilko, Scott W, and of course our good friend rick. I do not know whether rick will abide by my arbitration in this matter though so I am not sure whether I should wait for him to agree. However, he did say in one of his post even this AM, that he stands by his record, and that he posted as he claims evidence of Canadians dying while on wait list for medical procedures and Tests. I am assuming also that being on a wait list is the same thing as being in a wait line. If they are different, I did not find any claim by rick that people are dying in an actual line while waiting, or evidence to support any such claim. Right. That's all I am saying. You should have simply ticked "yes" instead of babbling on, but oh well. He has not provided any evidence that Canadians are dying waiting in line (or waiting on a list) for health care. However, on 2/20 at 9:32 Rick presented 4 links as evidence to support his claim that Canadians were dying while on wait list, and receiving late, slow, and inadequate medical procedures. That if a Canadian had the funding, that he could go to the USA and receive prompt medical attention, and that in Canada, such outsoursing was considered illegal, and subject to a substantial penalty. Rick was not comparing the advantages or disadvantages of the two systems, nor even saying that the American system was good at all. He was only commenting on the Canadian system that resulted in long wait times for certain procedures In certain rare circumstances, particularly in geographically isolated areas, or for unique specialty tests, yes. and tests that at times resulted in people dying before they could receive the medical attention that could have served to save their lives. There is no evidence of that. He was not saying that once the people actually received the medical attention, that the medical practices themselves were inadequate or non-professional. The 4 links are as follow: http://www.nupge.ca/news_2000/News%20May/n12my00a.htm http://www.cato.org/dailys/07-24-04.html http://www.utoronto.ca/hpme/dhr/pdf/Barer-Lewis.pdf http://www.angelfire.com/pa/sergeman...oysplight.html Yes, I saw all of them. None of them say that Canadians are dying waiting for health care. The main objection to one of the links at the time was regarding the Frasier Institute, and its supposed backers, as being anti-Canadian medical system. Whether this is true or not, I can not determine. The Frasier Institute are a bunch of whackos, and not a reliable source of objective information, but even they aren't saying Canadians are dying waiting for health care. Rick also offered that there were many other links to support his claim, data that came from Canadian universites, labor unions, think tanks, that would not supposedly be anti-Canadian. He did not list any other specific link that I found. No, he didn't. Regarding your question, unless there is a distinction between waiting list, and waiting lines, and irregardless of the credibility of the links provided as evidence, I believe that rick did provide evidence to support his claim. So my vote is yes, and I believe you KMAN owe rick a public apology. Please provide me with the precise quote from one of his links where it states that Canadians have in fact died waiting in line for treatment. Now I hope this can bring and end to the acrimony, and I would note that though I believe rick provided the evidence, that I understand better after reading maybe a hundred post by him that his style can be abrasive. My only suggestion is that in the future if you want to avoid the abrasion, don't engage him in debate. TnT TnT I would suggest that you be more careful in evaluating the question at hand. If you saw evidence provided by Rick (or anywhere else) that Canadians have died waiting in line for treatment, please post it. |
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#3
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"KMAN" wrote in message . .. "Tinkerntom snip... what this is about. Have you seen rick provide any evidence to support a claim that Canadians are dying in waiting lines for health care? [] Yes [] No Ok I'll try to answer you! Last night, I spent several hours going through the archives of this discussion, reading several hundred post by Kman, frtwz, Mike D, Wilko, Scott W, and of course our good friend rick. I do not know whether rick will abide by my arbitration in this matter though so I am not sure whether I should wait for him to agree. However, he did say in one of his post even this AM, that he stands by his record, and that he posted as he claims evidence of Canadians dying while on wait list for medical procedures and Tests. I am assuming also that being on a wait list is the same thing as being in a wait line. If they are different, I did not find any claim by rick that people are dying in an actual line while waiting, or evidence to support any such claim. Right. That's all I am saying. You should have simply ticked "yes" instead of babbling on, but oh well. He has not provided any evidence that Canadians are dying waiting in line (or waiting on a list) for health care. ============== Yes, I have. However, on 2/20 at 9:32 Rick presented 4 links as evidence to support his claim that Canadians were dying while on wait list, and receiving late, slow, and inadequate medical procedures. That if a Canadian had the funding, that he could go to the USA and receive prompt medical attention, and that in Canada, such outsoursing was considered illegal, and subject to a substantial penalty. Rick was not comparing the advantages or disadvantages of the two systems, nor even saying that the American system was good at all. He was only commenting on the Canadian system that resulted in long wait times for certain procedures In certain rare circumstances, particularly in geographically isolated areas, or for unique specialty tests, yes. ====================== And treatment. Even YOU have said Canadians wait for treatment. and tests that at times resulted in people dying before they could receive the medical attention that could have served to save their lives. There is no evidence of that. ============== Yes, there is. He was not saying that once the people actually received the medical attention, that the medical practices themselves were inadequate or non-professional. The 4 links are as follow: http://www.nupge.ca/news_2000/News%20May/n12my00a.htm http://www.cato.org/dailys/07-24-04.html http://www.utoronto.ca/hpme/dhr/pdf/Barer-Lewis.pdf http://www.angelfire.com/pa/sergeman...oysplight.html Yes, I saw all of them. None of them say that Canadians are dying waiting for health care. ======================= ROTFLMAO You really are that stupid, aren't you? The very first first one says otherwise right in the headline of the article. Are you really so set on being the worlds worst liar that you continue even when the evidence is in front of you? The main objection to one of the links at the time was regarding the Frasier Institute, and its supposed backers, as being anti-Canadian medical system. Whether this is true or not, I can not determine. The Frasier Institute are a bunch of whackos, ====================== Says the head whacko? and not a reliable source of objective information, but even they aren't saying Canadians are dying waiting for health care. ================ LOL Selective reading there too? Rick also offered that there were many other links to support his claim, data that came from Canadian universites, labor unions, think tanks, that would not supposedly be anti-Canadian. He did not list any other specific link that I found. No, he didn't. =============== Because fool, you have already shown that if I list a link, you have some reason not to believe it. I offered you the face-saving way out by finding your own information. You proved instead that you wished to remain willfully ignorant. Regarding your question, unless there is a distinction between waiting list, and waiting lines, and irregardless of the credibility of the links provided as evidence, I believe that rick did provide evidence to support his claim. So my vote is yes, and I believe you KMAN owe rick a public apology. Please provide me with the precise quote from one of his links where it states that Canadians have in fact died waiting in line for treatment. ================ Read them fool. Then write them and ask. Afterall, they are YOUR countrymen. I'm sure they'll give you the info. But, as I have stated before, you are too afraid to find out the truth. Now I hope this can bring and end to the acrimony, and I would note that though I believe rick provided the evidence, that I understand better after reading maybe a hundred post by him that his style can be abrasive. My only suggestion is that in the future if you want to avoid the abrasion, don't engage him in debate. TnT TnT I would suggest that you be more careful in evaluating the question at hand. If you saw evidence provided by Rick (or anywhere else) that Canadians have died waiting in line for treatment, please post it. ================== It just was, fool, again. That you wish to ignore it is your problem! |
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#4
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"rick" wrote in message k.net... "KMAN" wrote in message . .. "Tinkerntom snip... what this is about. Have you seen rick provide any evidence to support a claim that Canadians are dying in waiting lines for health care? [] Yes [] No Ok I'll try to answer you! Last night, I spent several hours going through the archives of this discussion, reading several hundred post by Kman, frtwz, Mike D, Wilko, Scott W, and of course our good friend rick. I do not know whether rick will abide by my arbitration in this matter though so I am not sure whether I should wait for him to agree. However, he did say in one of his post even this AM, that he stands by his record, and that he posted as he claims evidence of Canadians dying while on wait list for medical procedures and Tests. I am assuming also that being on a wait list is the same thing as being in a wait line. If they are different, I did not find any claim by rick that people are dying in an actual line while waiting, or evidence to support any such claim. Right. That's all I am saying. You should have simply ticked "yes" instead of babbling on, but oh well. He has not provided any evidence that Canadians are dying waiting in line (or waiting on a list) for health care. ============== Yes, I have. Post it. However, on 2/20 at 9:32 Rick presented 4 links as evidence to support his claim that Canadians were dying while on wait list, and receiving late, slow, and inadequate medical procedures. That if a Canadian had the funding, that he could go to the USA and receive prompt medical attention, and that in Canada, such outsoursing was considered illegal, and subject to a substantial penalty. Rick was not comparing the advantages or disadvantages of the two systems, nor even saying that the American system was good at all. He was only commenting on the Canadian system that resulted in long wait times for certain procedures In certain rare circumstances, particularly in geographically isolated areas, or for unique specialty tests, yes. ====================== And treatment. Even YOU have said Canadians wait for treatment. Of course. People wait for treatment in every health care system. That's why all hospitals have waiting rooms. and tests that at times resulted in people dying before they could receive the medical attention that could have served to save their lives. There is no evidence of that. ============== Yes, there is. Post it. He was not saying that once the people actually received the medical attention, that the medical practices themselves were inadequate or non-professional. The 4 links are as follow: http://www.nupge.ca/news_2000/News%20May/n12my00a.htm http://www.cato.org/dailys/07-24-04.html http://www.utoronto.ca/hpme/dhr/pdf/Barer-Lewis.pdf http://www.angelfire.com/pa/sergeman...oysplight.html Yes, I saw all of them. None of them say that Canadians are dying waiting for health care. ======================= ROTFLMAO You really are that stupid, aren't you? The very first first one says otherwise right in the headline of the article. Are you really so set on being the worlds worst liar that you continue even when the evidence is in front of you? That's a shoddy article by a union looking for more money. Is there a coroner's report that says Mr X. died because he was waiting? How can one crappy article by a union looking for money be considered evidence? The main objection to one of the links at the time was regarding the Frasier Institute, and its supposed backers, as being anti-Canadian medical system. Whether this is true or not, I can not determine. The Frasier Institute are a bunch of whackos, ====================== Says the head whacko? No, that would be Michael Walker. and not a reliable source of objective information, but even they aren't saying Canadians are dying waiting for health care. ================ LOL Selective reading there too? Post the proof using your own superior reading skills. Rick also offered that there were many other links to support his claim, data that came from Canadian universites, labor unions, think tanks, that would not supposedly be anti-Canadian. He did not list any other specific link that I found. No, he didn't. =============== Because fool, you have already shown that if I list a link, you have some reason not to believe it. I offered you the face-saving way out by finding your own information. You proved instead that you wished to remain willfully ignorant. Nothing in your link proves that Canadians are dying because they are waiting in health care lines. Regarding your question, unless there is a distinction between waiting list, and waiting lines, and irregardless of the credibility of the links provided as evidence, I believe that rick did provide evidence to support his claim. So my vote is yes, and I believe you KMAN owe rick a public apology. Please provide me with the precise quote from one of his links where it states that Canadians have in fact died waiting in line for treatment. ================ Read them fool. Then write them and ask. Afterall, they are YOUR countrymen. I'm sure they'll give you the info. But, as I have stated before, you are too afraid to find out the truth. What kind of an ass would refuse to simply post the evidence if it existed? You are a liar and a coward. Now I hope this can bring and end to the acrimony, and I would note that though I believe rick provided the evidence, that I understand better after reading maybe a hundred post by him that his style can be abrasive. My only suggestion is that in the future if you want to avoid the abrasion, don't engage him in debate. TnT TnT I would suggest that you be more careful in evaluating the question at hand. If you saw evidence provided by Rick (or anywhere else) that Canadians have died waiting in line for treatment, please post it. ================== It just was, fool, again. That you wish to ignore it is your problem! It's not there. |
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#5
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"KMAN" wrote in message . .. "rick" wrote in message k.net... "KMAN" wrote in message . .. "Tinkerntom snip... He has not provided any evidence that Canadians are dying waiting in line (or waiting on a list) for health care. ============== Yes, I have. Post it. ==================== Already been done, fool. Now, more than once... However, on 2/20 at 9:32 Rick presented 4 links as evidence to support his claim that Canadians were dying while on wait list, and receiving late, slow, and inadequate medical procedures. That if a Canadian had the funding, that he could go to the USA and receive prompt medical attention, and that in Canada, such outsoursing was considered illegal, and subject to a substantial penalty. Rick was not comparing the advantages or disadvantages of the two systems, nor even saying that the American system was good at all. He was only commenting on the Canadian system that resulted in long wait times for certain procedures In certain rare circumstances, particularly in geographically isolated areas, or for unique specialty tests, yes. ====================== And treatment. Even YOU have said Canadians wait for treatment. Of course. People wait for treatment in every health care system. That's why all hospitals have waiting rooms. ==================== LOL We aren't talking about people waiting in waiting rooms, we're talking about weeks, months, and years of wait for treatment. BUT, if you want to discuss waiting room problems in Canada, there are those problems too. and tests that at times resulted in people dying before they could receive the medical attention that could have served to save their lives. There is no evidence of that. ============== Yes, there is. Post it. ==================== Already been done, fool. Now, more than once... He was not saying that once the people actually received the medical attention, that the medical practices themselves were inadequate or non-professional. The 4 links are as follow: http://www.nupge.ca/news_2000/News%20May/n12my00a.htm http://www.cato.org/dailys/07-24-04.html http://www.utoronto.ca/hpme/dhr/pdf/Barer-Lewis.pdf http://www.angelfire.com/pa/sergeman...oysplight.html Yes, I saw all of them. None of them say that Canadians are dying waiting for health care. ======================= ROTFLMAO You really are that stupid, aren't you? The very first first one says otherwise right in the headline of the article. Are you really so set on being the worlds worst liar that you continue even when the evidence is in front of you? That's a shoddy article by a union looking for more money. ================== LOL See? that's why I told you to look for yourself, fool. First, the problem is a right-wing US wanna-be site, now it's a union being too socialist! You really don't want to see the truth, do you fool? Is there a coroner's report that says Mr X. died because he was waiting? ===================== Read the sites fool. As you know, patient info is not released. Plus, the Canadian health care system has been voted the most secretive, non-responsive group by Canadian journalists. How can one crappy article by a union looking for money be considered evidence? ================ Why are you relying then on what I posted. Go get the info yourself. Try any nimber of other sources, universities, union, Canadian medical journal... The main objection to one of the links at the time was regarding the Frasier Institute, and its supposed backers, as being anti-Canadian medical system. Whether this is true or not, I can not determine. The Frasier Institute are a bunch of whackos, ====================== Says the head whacko? No, that would be Michael Walker. ================= No, that's you,fool. You keep proving it with all your lies and denial. and not a reliable source of objective information, but even they aren't saying Canadians are dying waiting for health care. ================ LOL Selective reading there too? Post the proof using your own superior reading skills. ==================== Already been done, fool. Now, more than once... Rick also offered that there were many other links to support his claim, data that came from Canadian universites, labor unions, think tanks, that would not supposedly be anti-Canadian. He did not list any other specific link that I found. No, he didn't. =============== Because fool, you have already shown that if I list a link, you have some reason not to believe it. I offered you the face-saving way out by finding your own information. You proved instead that you wished to remain willfully ignorant. Nothing in your link proves that Canadians are dying because they are waiting in health care lines. ================ Yep, there was. But don't rely on my posts fool. Look up the facts for yourself. But then, you've already proven you are too afraid to do that. Regarding your question, unless there is a distinction between waiting list, and waiting lines, and irregardless of the credibility of the links provided as evidence, I believe that rick did provide evidence to support his claim. So my vote is yes, and I believe you KMAN owe rick a public apology. Please provide me with the precise quote from one of his links where it states that Canadians have in fact died waiting in line for treatment. ================ Read them fool. Then write them and ask. Afterall, they are YOUR countrymen. I'm sure they'll give you the info. But, as I have stated before, you are too afraid to find out the truth. What kind of an ass would refuse to simply post the evidence if it existed? ================== ROTFLMAO I'm giving you the chance to find it for yourself, fool. That way you can't claim that my sites are too right-wing. Oh, wait, too left-wing. Oh, wait, too middle of the road. Oh, wait, too truthful for your delusions. You are a liar and a coward. ================== Keep telling yourself that fool. maybe someday you'll even believe it. All you've managed to do is prove that yopu are afraid of the facts. Otherwise, you'd have refuted the sites I have posted. Youi haven't, and you can't. Now I hope this can bring and end to the acrimony, and I would note that though I believe rick provided the evidence, that I understand better after reading maybe a hundred post by him that his style can be abrasive. My only suggestion is that in the future if you want to avoid the abrasion, don't engage him in debate. TnT TnT I would suggest that you be more careful in evaluating the question at hand. If you saw evidence provided by Rick (or anywhere else) that Canadians have died waiting in line for treatment, please post it. ================== It just was, fool, again. That you wish to ignore it is your problem! It's not there. ================== Yep, head-in-the-sand. What a loony. |
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#6
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#7
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"KMAN" wrote in message ... in article , rick at wrote on 2/28/05 6:49 PM: snip Is there a coroner's report that says Mr X. died because he was waiting? ===================== Read the sites fool. As you know, patient info is not released. There are stories about health care issues in the media all the time. Something as serious as someone dying while waiting for care would definitely make the front page. ================== It has before fool. You're just too stupid, and too big a liar to look them up. Plus, the Canadian health care system has been voted the most secretive, non-responsive group by Canadian journalists. I guess that doesn't say much for our spy agency. ===================== LOL What spy agency would that be, fool? We're talking about your own media blasting your own medical care system. Too bad you're too stupid to understand that, eh liar? How can one crappy article by a union looking for money be considered evidence? ================ Why are you relying then on what I posted. Go get the info yourself. Try any nimber of other sources, universities, union, Canadian medical journal... The info does not exist. If someone died waiting for health care it would be a major scandal with an inquest and a coroner's report. ========================== Then you'd better start reading them fool. Continuing to lie about it just prove that much more how desperate you are in your chest-thumping. The type of trash you are quoting is nothing but political posturing by groups using weasel words (just like you). ====================== Really? Then you should be able to find canadian medical journal articles that refute those claims easily, eh liar. Opps, the Canadian medical journal supports the other position, imagine that, eh liar? |
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#8
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KMAN wrote: "Tinkerntom" wrote in message oups.com... KMAN wrote: "Tinkerntom" wrote in message oups.com... KMAN wrote: "Tinkerntom" wrote in message oups.com... KMAN wrote: in article , KMAN at wrote on 2/28/05 12:59 AM: in article , Tinkerntom at wrote on 2/28/05 12:40 AM: KMAN wrote: in article et, rick at wrote on 2/27/05 5:10 PM: "KMAN" wrote in message ... in article , Tinkerntom snip.. Tinkerntom, I'm actually surprised that a man of your high moral stands has not jumped in to criticize rick for being a liar and a coward. Why is that? ================ MAybe for the simple reason that I have not lied. Of course, you cannot make the same claim. Why not at least back up one of your claims, fool? If just one Canadian died in a waiting line for health care it would be a national scandal featured on the front page of every newspaper and the lead story of every television and readio news program. It hasn't happened rick. You made it up. You are a liar. And a coward for refusing to admit it. To his credit, Tinkerntom has added his name to the list of those who have never seen you prove your claim. I Did? Where did I say such a thing? TnT Eh? Sorry, my mistake. When I first read... "I agree, that you claim, that he made the claim, and failed to support it. No mystery here after watching this squabble for the last week!" ...I missed out on the weasel words you threw in there. I guess you really are afraid of rick! While you are still up, Tinkerntom, let me see if you are not too big of a coward to give a straight answer. Have you seen rick provide any evidence to support a claim that Canadians are dying in waiting lines for health care? [] Yes [] No What if I vote, and I get a hanging chad? Do we call Katherine Harris, Jeb Bush, Florida Supreme Ct. or US Supreme Ct. to get this mess straightened out? TnT Coward! So what must I do to get off your Coward list, I'm waiting to hear? TnT Answer the question. It's not like I suddenly gave you a label with no foundation, Tinkerntom. You know exactly what this is about. Have you seen rick provide any evidence to support a claim that Canadians are dying in waiting lines for health care? [] Yes [] No Ok I'll try to answer you! Last night, I spent several hours going through the archives of this discussion, reading several hundred post by Kman, frtwz, Mike D, Wilko, Scott W, and of course our good friend rick. I do not know whether rick will abide by my arbitration in this matter though so I am not sure whether I should wait for him to agree. However, he did say in one of his post even this AM, that he stands by his record, and that he posted as he claims evidence of Canadians dying while on wait list for medical procedures and Tests. I am assuming also that being on a wait list is the same thing as being in a wait line. If they are different, I did not find any claim by rick that people are dying in an actual line while waiting, or evidence to support any such claim. Right. That's all I am saying. You should have simply ticked "yes" instead of babbling on, but oh well. He has not provided any evidence that Canadians are dying waiting in line (or waiting on a list) for health care. However, on 2/20 at 9:32 Rick presented 4 links as evidence to support his claim that Canadians were dying while on wait list, and receiving late, slow, and inadequate medical procedures. That if a Canadian had the funding, that he could go to the USA and receive prompt medical attention, and that in Canada, such outsoursing was considered illegal, and subject to a substantial penalty. Rick was not comparing the advantages or disadvantages of the two systems, nor even saying that the American system was good at all. He was only commenting on the Canadian system that resulted in long wait times for certain procedures In certain rare circumstances, particularly in geographically isolated areas, or for unique specialty tests, yes. and tests that at times resulted in people dying before they could receive the medical attention that could have served to save their lives. There is no evidence of that. He was not saying that once the people actually received the medical attention, that the medical practices themselves were inadequate or non-professional. The 4 links are as follow: http://www.nupge.ca/news_2000/News%20May/n12my00a.htm http://www.cato.org/dailys/07-24-04.html http://www.utoronto.ca/hpme/dhr/pdf/Barer-Lewis.pdf http://www.angelfire.com/pa/sergeman...oysplight.html Yes, I saw all of them. None of them say that Canadians are dying waiting for health care. The main objection to one of the links at the time was regarding the Frasier Institute, and its supposed backers, as being anti-Canadian medical system. Whether this is true or not, I can not determine. The Frasier Institute are a bunch of whackos, and not a reliable source of objective information, but even they aren't saying Canadians are dying waiting for health care. Rick also offered that there were many other links to support his claim, data that came from Canadian universites, labor unions, think tanks, that would not supposedly be anti-Canadian. He did not list any other specific link that I found. No, he didn't. Regarding your question, unless there is a distinction between waiting list, and waiting lines, and irregardless of the credibility of the links provided as evidence, I believe that rick did provide evidence to support his claim. So my vote is yes, and I believe you KMAN owe rick a public apology. Please provide me with the precise quote from one of his links where it states that Canadians have in fact died waiting in line for treatment. Now I hope this can bring and end to the acrimony, and I would note that though I believe rick provided the evidence, that I understand better after reading maybe a hundred post by him that his style can be abrasive. My only suggestion is that in the future if you want to avoid the abrasion, don't engage him in debate. TnT TnT I would suggest that you be more careful in evaluating the question at hand. If you saw evidence provided by Rick (or anywhere else) that Canadians have died waiting in line for treatment, please post it. KMAN, your question was whether rick posted any evidence, not whether that evidence was valid! I tried to strain out the knats about the lines and lists, because you kept talking about lines, and he talked about lists. His links appear to support what he was saying, and from his perspective were offered as evidence that some Canadian had died while on a wait list for medical test and procedures. Those folks may have died anyway, and maybe not due to being on the wait list which is his implication. His implication may have been beyond the scope of the data provided, and your understanding seems unwilling to consider unfavorable data. Probably both of you are faulted, for your own reasons. I do not see that it was a lack of care on my part answering the question, but on yours asking a poorly framed question. Evidence is submitted in court, tagged and labeled, and added to a case file. It is evidence whether it is good evidence, pertinent or not. You have your evidence, when do we hear your apology? The question of its validity is another issue! TnT |
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KMAN wrote: ....snipsss... My apologies for being unclear Tinkerntom. Can I please try again? Has rick PROVEN to you that Canadians are dying waiting for health care? If you will excuse and accept the following babble? I have reviewed ricks evidence, and included some notes, and additional links below. Since he encouraged you to look up additional links in order to refute his claim, and claimed for himself that there were other supporting links, I believe the links I have included would represent a sample of some of the possible links for both of you. I did not include links for organ donation since any donation represented the death of the donator, and would have no meaning in this discussion. I also did not include list of people on routine procedure list that happened to die, but not as a result of the expected and waited for procedure. Primarily this restricted me to cardiac and ontolgy list where the procedure was a life saving procedure, and waiting could have direct life changing ramifications. Some of the links represent particular special interest groups with and ax to grind, and any position they take on an issue should be understood and interpreted accordingly. Various political, national, and academic groups are represented. The first three represent ricks links, and I would specifically point out the quote from #3 Univ of Toronto regardings "claims can not be specifically confirmed or denied", but this is due to lack of data. I do not know whether more data has become available since that time, however there are now many and various conclusions. #7 specifically refers to Diane Gorsuch dying while waiting excessively on a list. Which would support richs claim, and indicate that KMAN owes rick an apology, since KMAN said "show me one person." Lastly I would highlight #12 and echo the last comment, "I think people can draw their own conclusions from the degree of difficulty we're having in dealing with this particular problem right now." The format of this forum is to present rudimentry ideas with minimal support, a subject as complex as this one can only be hacked! Be careful not to get caught on the chopping block! To say that people have died because they are on the list, is different from saying they they died while on the list. Some have definitely died while on the list. No one seems to deny that there are problems in the Canadian Medical System. These problems may be systemic of socialize medicine, and there is a growing dissatisfaction with a call to privatization, though that is not a panacea either. There are various solutions offered, with various drawbacks. More money for medical. More Doctors, or longer wait lists, which gets back to this thread. Longer wait lists would likely result in more people dying while on those wait lists. In the mean time there have been at least 1, and as many as 141 mortalities documented in a study for a particular year, and others implied by study, so when do we hear your apology? TnT 1) http://www.nupge.ca/news_2000/News%20May/n12my00a.htm editorial by National Union of public and general employees "This suggests that hundreds of people may be dying from what is quite simply under-funding of the system," 2) http://www.cato.org/dailys/07-24-04.html editorial by CATO Institute referring to Fraiser Inst. "Adding to Canada's medical problems is the exodus of doctors. According to a March 2003 story in Canada News, about 10,000 doctors left Canada in the 1990s. Compounding that exodus is the drop in medical school graduates. According to Miss Houston, Ontario has turned to nurses to replace its bolting doctors. It is "creating" 369 new nurse practitioner positions to take up the doctor shortage." 3) http://www.utoronto.ca/hpme/dhr/pdf/Barer-Lewis.pdf from Paper prepared for the Atkinson Foundation; from report prepared for report to Health Canada in 1998. pg 8 "Claims about patients dying because of waiting too long cannot be confirmed or denied from current research and information. This is a part of the sorry state of wait list information in Canada. Even simple statistics such as death from different procedures, or deaths of patients on different lists, are simply not available." 4) http://www.ices.on.ca/webpage.cfm?si...category_id=49 Analysis of deaths while waiting for cardiac surgery among 29,293 consecutive patients in Ontario, Canada, 141 deaths 5) http://www.cmaj.ca/cgi/content/abstract/162/6/775 Benchmarking the vital risk of waiting for coronary artery bypass surgery in Ontario Interpretation: Patients awaiting CABG in Ontario are at a much greater risk of death than the general population. However, when compared with thousands of other patients living with coronary artery disease, they are at similar or decreased vital risk 6) http://www.blupete.com/Commentary/MedSystemCanFailureOct'00.htm "The Reason for the Failure Of the Canadian Medical System." Yet, when it comes to medical services, we shun the market: we adopt a system that has brought about ruin to entire countries, a system (central, absolute, and top down) which has never worked and which cannot work. 7) http://winnipeg.cbc.ca/regional/serv...tories20030522 The Tories have called for a review of the province's cardiac care system since Diane Gorsuch died while waiting for surgery back in February. 8) http://www.news-medical.net/?keyword...%20Association Canadians are unhappy with the current Medicare system 9) http://ats.ctsnetjournals.org/cgi/co...tract/77/3/769 CONCLUSIONS: Long waiting lists for coronary artery bypass grafting are associated with considerable mortality. The risk of death increases significantly with waiting time. Sex, unstable angina, perioperative risk, impaired left ventricular function, and concomitant aortic valve disease are independent risk factors and should be considered at triage. 10) http://circ.ahajournals.org/cgi/cont...4/suppl_1/I-92 In summary, a peer-reviewed standardized approach to risk-stratified queue assignment of cardiac surgery patients resulted in a 0.7% waiting-list mortality and an 8.7% rate of upgrades, the majority of which required hospitalization for unstable symptoms. The majority of these adverse events occurred early. A marked increase in surgical capacity would be required to effectively deal with these events. Given our utilization of a peer-review conference to validate indication for surgical intervention, surgical capacity could be increased where economically feasible, allowing reduction in waiting time without fear of rampant overuse of cardiac surgical procedures. Prolonged waiting time was not associated with adverse surgical outcomes among patients undergoing cardiac surgery, and in the urgent queue, earlier intervention was associated with worse outcomes. 11) http://www.cp.org/english/online/ful...D052306AU.html The 58-year-old woman had been awaiting bypass surgery for more than two years. She was the third to die since last July while awaiting surgery. 12) http://canada.medbroadcast.com/healt...nnel_ id=1006 OTTAWA (CP) - Canada's public health system, ignored when it works well, is attracting attention now that its fragility has been highlighted by the SARS outbreak. Public health is a term used to cover many activities designed to prevent illness from occurring, rather than on treating illness after it happens. She said it's an excellent organization with dedicated people, but the municipal tax base is not sufficient to deal with a crisis like SARS. Elliott Halparin, president of the Ontario Medical Association, said the entire health system, not just the prevention side, has been underfunded for years. "This (the SARS outbreak) is going to make everybody realize just how stretched we really were." Halparin said Ontario already had a big problem with waiting lists, but the situation will be exacerbated by the SARS outbreak, which has led to the closure of some hospitals. He is not convinced that the problem will be remedied by federal money promised as part of the recent first ministers health accord. It's still not clear to him how much money there will be, and how it will be directed. He said the biggest problem in medicare is health human resource shortages - not enough doctors, nurses or technologists - and crumbling infrastructure. "Those are the real fundamental issues that need to be addressed. What SARS is doing for us right now is it's creating incredible stress, personal stress." Halparin declined to speculate whether the system could cope with another crisis at the same time as SARS, or whether it could deal with a full-blown pandemic with a high mortality rate. "I think people can draw their own conclusions from the degree of difficulty we're having in dealing with this particular problem right now." [x] Yes [] No Thank you for your patience. Tinkerntom, aka KnesisKnosis, Life, Live it! |
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