Wilko wrote:
BCITORGB wrote:


Clearly, for you Americans, it is YOUR election and your
government.
Unfortunately, as a nation, you are so powerful and influential
that
who you elect has an impact on virtually every other soul on this
planet. YOU may have decided that the Bush right-wing agenda is
right
for America. Many (the vast majority) of us outside of the United
States do not agree.

Well said Wilf. It's funny to see people who are both politically
almost
off the far right side of the political scale complain about their
differences. It's troubling to see the ones representing them not
only
try to carry out those ideas inside the U.S. but also try to force
them
onto the rest of the world. It's even more troubling to see that they

are trying to export that what they call "democracy".

I find it curious and disheartening that America can be so out of
step
with prevailing global opinions. The rest of the western world is
clearly "blue". Likely we could color the prevailing
anti-intellectualism of places like Afghanistan and other
fundamentalist cultures "red".

It's very simple: the vast majority of the U.S. population just don't

care what anyone else outside the U.S. thinks. :-(
Being that out of touch with the rest of the world and behaving like
it
doesn't matter what anyone else thinks has one drawback though: it
does
have its consequences when other people get it in their heads to make
it
painfully clear to you that they have a differing opinion. Still,
nothing that can't be hidden (for a while) from the population
through a
thick layer of propaganda...

--
Wilko van den Bergh wilko(a t)dse(d o t)nl
Eindhoven The Netherlands Europe
---Look at the possibilities, don't worry about the limitations.---
http://wilko.webzone.ru/

Wilko, I have said on numerous ocassions, that I am very interested in
what you have to say. You are one voice in Europe, and so I identified
you as Euro, and got plonked for generalizing. And yet you just
acknowledged that we here in US are out of touch with the rest of the
world. That is a pretty big generalization for someone who is only one
small voice in Europe. It sounded to me like you were speaking for a
whole lot of Euro voices, and others. That is why I identified you as
Euro, and why what you say is important, if in fact that what you say
is true, we need to listen. There was no denigrating slur intended in
refering to you as Euro.

Now having said we need to listen, does not mean that we will accept
your premise. We have our own concerns whch we have to address as best
we can from our perspective. That does not mean that we are totally
myopic, anymore than others around the world. We each look out first
for number one. We have local concerns and worldwide concerns.

I understand that what we do affects others around the world. Maybe not
as well as you in your international travels. But I also know that some
bearded warlord in Afganistan does affect us as well. I suspect that
was part of the biggest shock to many Americans on 9/11. Our bubble
burst. We all live in a world where we affect one another. This would
be true whether our government was right or left, and there will always
be some in the world, who are further right or left than ourselves.
That does not mean that we should just go along with the other parts of
the world, but that we should attempt to influence them with what we
believe. Eventually we work out our differences one way or the other.
Much like personal differences, just on a bigger scale.

So am I unplonked? TnT

On 11-Feb-2005, "Tinkerntom" wrote:

That is a pretty big generalization for someone who is only one
small voice in Europe. It sounded to me like you were speaking for a
whole lot of Euro voices, and others.

Well, if you bother to listen to the rest of the world, you'll discover
that Wilko's view is not uncommon in many other countries.

I listen to English language radio broadcasts from many countries,
including the Netherlands, Sweden, Czech Republic, South Africa etc.
In fact, Radio Australia is on right now. There is a voice out there
beyond America - you just have to listen.

Mike

Michael Daly wrote:
On 11-Feb-2005, "Tinkerntom" wrote:

That is a pretty big generalization for someone who is only one
small voice in Europe. It sounded to me like you were speaking for
a
whole lot of Euro voices, and others.

Well, if you bother to listen to the rest of the world, you'll
discover
that Wilko's view is not uncommon in many other countries.

I listen to English language radio broadcasts from many countries,
including the Netherlands, Sweden, Czech Republic, South Africa etc.
In fact, Radio Australia is on right now. There is a voice out there
beyond America - you just have to listen.

Mike

Fact is when 10:00 news comes on I will often watch CH12 which is BBC,
just for a different perspective. I use to really enjoy Dollywall (sp?)
I currently try to review numerous internet news sites from the world.
But it seems that mostly I find 1 or 2 min sound bites, all coming from
the same wire service. Seems that Americans are not the only one with
short attention span.

An example is the tsunami. I told my wife that within two months you
would have trouble finding an international news article about it. Same
with so many other crisis type stories. On the other hand try finding a
story that has to do with the everyday life of some unknown in some
remote part of the world, like Canada. Also very difficult. That is why
I find discussions with the NG enlightening, you all are real people.
Not just some journalist figment of imagination. Sometimes the realness
rubs the wrong way, but we can work around that. TnT

TnT said:
==============
But I also know that some bearded warlord in Afganistan does affect us
as well. I suspect that was part of the biggest shock to many Americans
on 9/11. Our bubble burst. We all live in a world where we affect one
another.
=================

I don't mean to appear callous, but I think part of the problem lies
with a nation that has lived virtually untouched by the reast of the
world for 2 centuries. A nation that could afford to practice
isolationist policies. When your "bubble burst", you couldn't believe
it. And you likely over-reacted (see other posts putting the
casualities into perspective -- and I truly mean no disrespect to the
innocent victims of the bearded warlord).

Other nations, not isolated from neighbors by a huge ocean, better
understand the interconnectedness. By all means, go after the warlord
(as you know, most other nations supported you in those efforts). But
don't try to con the world into believing that a secular dictator has
anything in common with a religious fundamentalist (in this case, I'm
referring to Osama) who despises secularism. That, and WMD were thinly
veiled excuses to gain control of oil.

TnT says:
===============
That does not mean that we should just go along with the other parts of
the world, but that we should attempt to influence them with what we
believe.
==================

That's a tad arrogant, don't you think? When should I expect American
troops strolling down my boulevard and knocking on my door so as to
"influence" me to "believe" in the American dream?

Cheers,
frtzw906

BCITORGB wrote:
TnT said:
==============
But I also know that some bearded warlord in Afganistan does affect
us
as well. I suspect that was part of the biggest shock to many
Americans
on 9/11. Our bubble burst. We all live in a world where we affect one
another.
=================

I don't mean to appear callous, but I think part of the problem lies
with a nation that has lived virtually untouched by the reast of the
world for 2 centuries. A nation that could afford to practice
isolationist policies. When your "bubble burst", you couldn't believe
it. And you likely over-reacted (see other posts putting the
casualities into perspective -- and I truly mean no disrespect to the
innocent victims of the bearded warlord).

Other nations, not isolated from neighbors by a huge ocean, better
understand the interconnectedness. By all means, go after the warlord
(as you know, most other nations supported you in those efforts). But
don't try to con the world into believing that a secular dictator has
anything in common with a religious fundamentalist (in this case, I'm
referring to Osama) who despises secularism. That, and WMD were
thinly
veiled excuses to gain control of oil.

TnT says:
===============
That does not mean that we should just go along with the other parts
of
the world, but that we should attempt to influence them with what we
believe.
==================

That's a tad arrogant, don't you think? When should I expect American
troops strolling down my boulevard and knocking on my door so as to
"influence" me to "believe" in the American dream?

Cheers,
frtzw906

I thought we were talking primarily about political differences and
activities, not military actions. For most of the two hundred years of
our country, we have been involved with the rest of the world as they
sent immigrant to our shores. My heritage is Scotch-Irish, German,
French, and a few others thrown in. My wifes grandparents were
Norwegian and Slavic. And that is just my family, there are millions of
families. We have folks here from all around the world affecting our
politics, and outlook on politics "back home." Now that they are
citizens of US they vote also, and a majority of them voted for Bush.

Obviously the isolation of distance across the ocean, is not as much
these days, and we are being impacted daily by the EU, South America,
Africa, and Asia. The days stockmarket start in Japan, and go on around
the world from their. My in-laws have a sugar beet farm in Mn, and the
price they get for their sugar is determined by world markets. The
price of surgar is down, they don't buy the tractor. Down even more,
they could lose the farm. Many have lost their farms and had to find
work elsewhere because of the price of sugar in South America.

The N. Korean Nuclear threat is very real, but we have not gone
storming in there, and are trying to get them to the negotiating table
with their neighbors such as S. Korea, China, and Japan. No one here
wants to fight that battle, but we cannot be held hostage either, but
we would rather see the asiatics solve the issue.

I do not expect to see our troops marching down the EU boulevards,
since they are civilized and appear willing to solve their own issues.
However they were not so willing to stop the fighting in Bosnia, or now
the Sudan. It is easy to set in your Ivory Palace, and say that you are
above getting your hands dirty with all this military stuff. But where
would you be if the US had not spent Billions if not Trillions after
WW2, maintained troops in Europe, and political pressure on the Iron
Curtain countries to take down the Wall.

We eventually saw the Wall come down, and recently we have see historic
elections where they have never been seen before. Perfect, no! But a
big step forward for mankind.

The safety in isolation we felt because of the ocean was burst on 9/11.
It is not that we were unaware of you. Now we are even more on guard!
We understand our vulnerability to oil supplies, and will attempt to
protect them from tyrants. Oil recently in history has been a big
factor for fighting wars as countries became more industrialized. Which
sort of brings us back to the OP of this thread.

The Middle East is central in any discussion of oil, I don't care where
on earth you are politically. And the Middle East is central in many
religious issues, including Christianity, and in particular
Fundementalist Christianity. So the stage is being set for a titan
struggle like the world has never seen before. Are you ready? TnT

On 11-Feb-2005, "Tinkerntom" wrote:

My in-laws have a sugar beet farm in Mn, and the
price they get for their sugar is determined by world markets.

You'd better check your facts, TnT - in the US, sugar prices
are _not_ tied to world prices. That's why US sugar producers
can stay in business and those in, say, Africa, cannot sell
sugar in the US. In fact, many agricultural products in the
US are out of whack with world markets. World markets are also
out of whack with reality, since agriculture is the most heavily
protected and subsidized industry in the west.

Mike

A Usenet persona calling itself BCITORGB wrote:

TnT said:
==============
But I also know that some bearded warlord in Afganistan does affect us
as well. I suspect that was part of the biggest shock to many Americans
on 9/11. Our bubble burst. We all live in a world where we affect one
another.
=================

I don't mean to appear callous, but I think part of the problem lies
with a nation that has lived virtually untouched by the reast of the
world for 2 centuries. A nation that could afford to practice
isolationist policies. When your "bubble burst", you couldn't believe
it. And you likely over-reacted (see other posts putting the
casualities into perspective -- and I truly mean no disrespect to the
innocent victims of the bearded warlord).

I must agree here. After visiting Europe in the 80's, where terrorists have
been blowing people up for a long time, I concluded that we were abysmally
ignorant of the terrorist threat. I always knew that there would be some
horrific terrorist attack that would finally wake Americans up.


Other nations, not isolated from neighbors by a huge ocean, better
understand the interconnectedness. By all means, go after the warlord
(as you know, most other nations supported you in those efforts). But
don't try to con the world into believing that a secular dictator has
anything in common with a religious fundamentalist (in this case, I'm
referring to Osama) who despises secularism.

Except that Saddam did have a lot in common with Osama. The most important
thing they have in common is Islam. The next most important thing they have
in common is a hatred of America.

The proof of complicity between Osama and Saddam continues to pour in. The
UN Oil-for-Food program did little more than fund international terrorism
because Saddam diverted the funds into tens of thousands of secret bank
accounts across the world and gave terrorists access to those funds.

That, and WMD were thinly
veiled excuses to gain control of oil.

Not true, but even it it were true, so what? Oil is a strategic resource.
Every nation on the planet wants to secure strategic resources for its own
use. That's the nature of nations. That's the history of the planet. Why
should we apologize for deposing a brutal dictator (which was the prime
reason) who violated the cease-fire agreement (a secondary reason) and was
known, absolutely and without doubt to have had, and used WMD's (a secondary
reason) which will also result, we hope, in a nation friendly to us and our
strategic needs?


TnT says:
===============
That does not mean that we should just go along with the other parts of
the world, but that we should attempt to influence them with what we
believe.
==================

That's a tad arrogant, don't you think?

No. It's beneficial to world peace.

When should I expect American
troops strolling down my boulevard and knocking on my door so as to
"influence" me to "believe" in the American dream?

Don't know. Where do you llive? I'll look it up on the invasion schedule.

Then again, I think that our agents-in-place, code-named "McDonalds,"
"Burger King," and "Wal-Mart" are doing a fine job of subverting your
regime.

--
Regards,
Scott Weiser

"I love the Internet, I no longer have to depend on
friends, family and co-workers, I can annoy people WORLDWIDE!" TM

© 2005 Scott Weiser

Scott Weiser says:
================
Except that Saddam did have a lot in common with Osama. The most
important
thing they have in common is Islam
==================

Saddam's regime was a secular regime. Precisely the sort of government
Osama despised.

frtzw906
+++++++++++++++++

BCITORGB wrote:
Scott Weiser says:
================
Except that Saddam did have a lot in common with Osama. The most
important
thing they have in common is Islam
==================

Saddam's regime was a secular regime. Precisely the sort of
government
Osama despised.

frtzw906
+++++++++++++++++

At least so he says! If you believe everything he says! I've got a
bridge I will sell you.

I personally thinks he just hates America, and will express that hadred
wherever, whenever, and with whomever he can. That is his global
position! TnT

On 11-Feb-2005, Scott Weiser wrote:

Not true, but even it it were true, so what? Oil is a strategic resource.
Every nation on the planet wants to secure strategic resources for its own
use. That's the nature of nations. That's the history of the planet.

That's why Japan trashed US bases in Pearl Harbor and the Philippines
in Dec, 1941. I suppose you think that's justified.

Mike