Frederick Burroughs wrote:

Jesus multiplied fish and loaves [and healed lepers, walked on water...]

Rather, accounts of his life written one or two generations later claim
Jesus did those things. (Mark, Matthew, and Luke date from AD 70 to 90.)

It's interesting that the letters of Paul, which were the first portions
written of the New Testament, make no mention of miracles performed by
Jesus during his lifetime, only of his resurrection.

Environmentalism is an updated form of native american religion, I suspect.
It's amazing how much influence native americans have had over our culture,
especially considering how we mercilessly wiped them out. For example,
the Iroquois Confederacy served as a model for US government.

Might point out that Paul was not one of the original Disciples and did
not witness any of the miracles. Claimed to have a direct conversion
from God on the road to Damascus, if I remember my Bible.

Larry C wrote:
Might point out that Paul was not one of the original Disciples and
did
not witness any of the miracles. Claimed to have a direct conversion
from God on the road to Damascus, if I remember my Bible.

Many others are reported to have seen Him as well. TnT

Bill Tuthill wrote:


Environmentalism is an updated form of native american religion, I
suspect.
It's amazing how much influence native americans have had over our
culture,
especially considering how we mercilessly wiped them out. For
example,
the Iroquois Confederacy served as a model for US government.

I'm not sure that I buy the arguement that the Native Americans were
all that environmentally conscious. For example, the Iroquois
Confederation was formed to expand the tribes territory for the Fur
Trade and as a response to the encroachment of the Northern Tribes
supported by the French. They needed more territory because they had
decimated the furbearing populations in their original tribal areas.
Hardly a conservation ethic.

If one considers earlier Native cultures, there seem to have been
several that suffered from environmental collapses, maybe due to
climate change. The Adena in the East and the Cliff Dwellers in the
west for an example.

Larry C wrote:
Bill Tuthill wrote:


Environmentalism is an updated form of native american religion, I
suspect.
It's amazing how much influence native americans have had over our
culture,
especially considering how we mercilessly wiped them out. For
example,
the Iroquois Confederacy served as a model for US government.

I'm not sure that I buy the arguement that the Native Americans were
all that environmentally conscious. For example, the Iroquois
Confederation was formed to expand the tribes territory for the Fur
Trade and as a response to the encroachment of the Northern Tribes
supported by the French. They needed more territory because they had
decimated the furbearing populations in their original tribal areas.
Hardly a conservation ethic.

If one considers earlier Native cultures, there seem to have been
several that suffered from environmental collapses, maybe due to
climate change. The Adena in the East and the Cliff Dwellers in the
west for an example.

Read an Archeology article recently regarding the Yucatan. Seems that
the Mayan denuded large areas of the Yucatan forest, because of their
high demand for firewood, to reduce limestone for plaster for the
temples. They would live and build in an area until the forest could no
longer support the temple building and the agriculture, and then move
on.

Having spent time there in the early '70, the process continues. The
indigenous people practice slash and burn, live in an area for 5 to 10
years and then have to move on because they are having to carry their
firewood so far, 30-50 miles per day, in order to find good fire wood,
and the ag-land is played out.

The Spanish tried to stabilize the situation, several hundred years
ago, by requiring the people to have a home town of origin. So now the
people typically maintain two homes, one it town, where they go to be
counted and to pay taxes, and one in the jungle where they actually
live.

The Mexican Dept of Interior, is trying to save the forest, but you can
go for miles without seeing a large tree. High fines placed for cutting
one down, and are trying to reforest large area, but will take years of
effort.

All this has absolutely nothing to do with the large oil companies,
mining, or other enviro-hazard based big biz, just folks trying to have
a fire to cook their beans and stay warm.

Here on the High Plains, prior to conquistador and white settlers
bringing horses, the indians hunted buffaloe by driving a herd over a
cliff. They would kill many more than they could process, and without
refrigeration, there was lots of waste of game meat. Similarly they
hunted deer and elk. The game herds are larger now than ever with game
management, except for the buffaloe herds, which were a health issue
for domestic animals.

I am sure the Savannah of Africa is amazing to see with all its game
animals, but it will not support the developement required for advanced
civilization. Even current developement of agricultural areas is
conflicting with large animals such as rino and elephant, etc. Should
we just tell the locals that they really don't need to eat! Again
nothing to do with the big boys like Haliburton and the evil empire.

I suspect that some of these companies would love to develope ANWR, and
maybe Watts would have allowed it, and now Bush and Norton contemplates
it. I also suspect that if they go up there, though they will probably
not be able to leave no trace, they will be required to leave as small
a footprint as possible. The cost of a highly advanced industrial
civilization.

If there is an alternative, I would love to hear it, and see it in
"black and white," not just platitudes and pie in the sky, and talk
about the noble savage. It is easy to whine, show me a plan that works,
and I would be more than glad to promote it to all my fundementalist
friends in high places.

This all reminds me of a story I heard awhile back.

A farmer is out in his field working, and notices some fellow leaning
over his fence taking pictures. He approches the man and asks if he can
help him. The man politely and with awe in his voice said, "What a
beautiful field, that God had made!". The farmer without missing a
beat, said "Well, I don't know about God, you should have seen it when
He had it all to Himself."

Yes we have stewardship, and sometimes we have to get out some big
stones. TnT

Larry C wrote:

I'm not sure that I buy the arguement that the Native Americans were
all that environmentally conscious. For example, the Iroquois
Confederation was formed to expand the tribes territory for the Fur
Trade and as a response to the encroachment of the Northern Tribes
supported by the French. They needed more territory because they had
decimated the furbearing populations in their original tribal areas.
Hardly a conservation ethic.

I'm not saying that Native Americans were environmentalists, just that
modern Environmentalism had its roots in indigenous religion. In the
Torah and classical Greco-Roman literature, you seldom or never encounter
wonder of the natural world. Virgil's Bucolic (Eclogues) are mostly
about farming. In European literature, nature worship reached its peak
with German Romanticism, and even there, nature is largely tamed by man.

Whereas in (many tribes') Native American religion, places are sacred
in and of themselves. There might be a rock (present-day Devil's Tower),
or a place on a river (Ishi Pishi Fall on the Klamath) considered sacred.

It could be this respect for natural features that inspired Thoreau,
Leopold Aldo, John Muir, Edward Abbey (etc.) to formulate the seminal
ideas of Environmentalism. Unless you have a different theory.

If one considers earlier Native cultures, there seem to have been
several that suffered from environmental collapses, maybe due to
climate change. The Adena in the East and the Cliff Dwellers in the
west for an example.

I don't know about the Adena, but the Anasazi cliff dwellers were either
escaping severe drought, or pushed out by invading Navajo, or both.

Bill Tuthill wrote:
Larry C wrote:

I'm not sure that I buy the arguement that the Native Americans
were
all that environmentally conscious. For example, the Iroquois
Confederation was formed to expand the tribes territory for the Fur
Trade and as a response to the encroachment of the Northern Tribes
supported by the French. They needed more territory because they
had
decimated the furbearing populations in their original tribal
areas.
Hardly a conservation ethic.

I'm not saying that Native Americans were environmentalists, just
that
modern Environmentalism had its roots in indigenous religion. In the
Torah and classical Greco-Roman literature, you seldom or never
encounter
wonder of the natural world. Virgil's Bucolic (Eclogues) are mostly
about farming. In European literature, nature worship reached its
peak
with German Romanticism, and even there, nature is largely tamed by
man.

Whereas in (many tribes') Native American religion, places are sacred
in and of themselves. There might be a rock (present-day Devil's
Tower),
or a place on a river (Ishi Pishi Fall on the Klamath) considered
sacred.

It could be this respect for natural features that inspired Thoreau,
Leopold Aldo, John Muir, Edward Abbey (etc.) to formulate the seminal
ideas of Environmentalism. Unless you have a different theory.

If one considers earlier Native cultures, there seem to have been
several that suffered from environmental collapses, maybe due to
climate change. The Adena in the East and the Cliff Dwellers in the
west for an example.

I don't know about the Adena, but the Anasazi cliff dwellers were
either
escaping severe drought, or pushed out by invading Navajo, or both.

If I would compare Environmentalism to a religion, I would have to
compare it to pre-christian Celtic religions (commonly referred to as
Druids), which would qualify as nature worship.

Larry C wrote:


If I would compare Environmentalism to a religion, I would have to
compare it to pre-christian Celtic religions (commonly referred to as
Druids), which would qualify as nature worship.


Actually, the development of true environmental ethics is very recent.
Holmes Rolston was awarded the Templeton Prize for Progress Toward
Research or Discoveries about Spiritual Realities in 2003; See:
http://www.templetonprize.org/bios_recent.html

Professor Rolston uses natural history examples to illustrate
principles of environmental ethics that are intrinsic and independent
from human value judgment.

Most recently, the 2004 Nobel Peace Prize was awarded to
Wangari Maathai; See:
http://nobelprize.org/peace/laureates/2004/press.html

Mrs. Maathai is best known for helping to establish sustainable
environmental practices in Africa, and her organizing poor communities
and women by using an environmental impetus.





--
Burn the land and boil the sea
You can't take the sky from me

- From "Ballad of Serenity" by Joss Whedon