On 26-Feb-2005, Scott Weiser wrote:

You implicitly reject the existence of God not because God has been
scientifically disproven

Why do you continue to lie about this?

What part of "implicitly" do you fail to understand?

I have _explicity_ stated otherwise, idiot.

Nor have you responded to a specific question

You still have not provided _any_ proof for _any_ specious
claim on which you have been challenged.

They instead argue the facts and present
evidence and argumentation tending to support their thesis, while
recognizing that conflict in theories is the essence of intellectual
inquiry.

I have argued the facts, idiot and still haven't seen you produce
a single fact to support your ridiculous claims.

Given that you are clearly uninterested in a reasoned philosophical debate

You haven't even begun to engage in reasoned debate. You have lied,
misrepresented what is said, made unsupportable claims and refused
to offer any facts in your defense. You have no claim to any
high road. YOu are a fool that wastes everyone elses' time. NOw
you are abandoning the discussion because you have proved nothing
but that you are an idiot.

Mike

"Tinkerntom" wrote in message
oups.com...

KMAN wrote:
"Tinkerntom" wrote in message
oups.com...

KMAN wrote:
"Tinkerntom" wrote in message
oups.com...

KMAN wrote:
in article , KMAN at
wrote on 2/28/05 12:59 AM:

in article
,
Tinkerntom
at wrote on 2/28/05 12:40 AM:


KMAN wrote:
in article
et,
rick
at
wrote on 2/27/05 5:10 PM:


"KMAN" wrote in message
...
in article
,
Tinkerntom

snip..



Tinkerntom, I'm actually surprised that a man of your
high
moral stands has
not jumped in to criticize rick for being a liar and a
coward.
Why is that?
================
MAybe for the simple reason that I have not lied. Of
course,
you
cannot make the same claim.
Why not at least back up one of your claims, fool?

If just one Canadian died in a waiting line for health care
it
would
be a
national scandal featured on the front page of every
newspaper
and
the lead
story of every television and readio news program. It
hasn't
happened
rick.
You made it up. You are a liar. And a coward for refusing
to
admit
it.

To his credit, Tinkerntom has added his name to the list of
those
who
have
never seen you prove your claim.

I Did? Where did I say such a thing? TnT

Eh?

Sorry, my mistake. When I first read...

"I agree, that you claim, that he made the claim, and failed
to
support
it. No mystery here after watching this squabble for the last
week!"

...I missed out on the weasel words you threw in there. I
guess
you
really
are afraid of rick!

While you are still up, Tinkerntom, let me see if you are not
too
big
of a
coward to give a straight answer.

Have you seen rick provide any evidence to support a claim that
Canadians
are dying in waiting lines for health care?

[] Yes

[] No

What if I vote, and I get a hanging chad? Do we call Katherine
Harris,
Jeb Bush, Florida Supreme Ct. or US Supreme Ct. to get this mess
straightened out? TnT

Coward!

So what must I do to get off your Coward list, I'm waiting to hear?
TnT

Answer the question. It's not like I suddenly gave you a label with
no
foundation, Tinkerntom. You know exactly what this is about.

Have you seen rick provide any evidence to support a claim that
Canadians
are dying in waiting lines for health care?

[] Yes
[] No

Ok I'll try to answer you! Last night, I spent several hours going
through the archives of this discussion, reading several hundred post
by Kman, frtwz, Mike D, Wilko, Scott W, and of course our good friend
rick. I do not know whether rick will abide by my arbitration in this
matter though so I am not sure whether I should wait for him to agree.
However, he did say in one of his post even this AM, that he stands by
his record, and that he posted as he claims evidence of Canadians dying
while on wait list for medical procedures and Tests. I am assuming also
that being on a wait list is the same thing as being in a wait line. If
they are different, I did not find any claim by rick that people are
dying in an actual line while waiting, or evidence to support any such
claim.

Right. That's all I am saying.

You should have simply ticked "yes" instead of babbling on, but oh well.

He has not provided any evidence that Canadians are dying waiting in line
(or waiting on a list) for health care.

However, on 2/20 at 9:32 Rick presented 4 links as evidence to support
his claim that Canadians were dying while on wait list, and receiving
late, slow, and inadequate medical procedures. That if a Canadian had
the funding, that he could go to the USA and receive prompt medical
attention, and that in Canada, such outsoursing was considered illegal,
and subject to a substantial penalty. Rick was not comparing the
advantages or disadvantages of the two systems, nor even saying that
the American system was good at all. He was only commenting on the
Canadian system that resulted in long wait times for certain procedures

In certain rare circumstances, particularly in geographically isolated
areas, or for unique specialty tests, yes.

and tests that at times resulted in people dying before they could
receive the medical attention that could have served to save their
lives.

There is no evidence of that.

He was not saying that once the people actually received the
medical attention, that the medical practices themselves were
inadequate or non-professional. The 4 links are as follow:

http://www.nupge.ca/news_2000/News%20May/n12my00a.htm
http://www.cato.org/dailys/07-24-04.html
http://www.utoronto.ca/hpme/dhr/pdf/Barer-Lewis.pdf

http://www.angelfire.com/pa/sergeman...oysplight.html

Yes, I saw all of them.

None of them say that Canadians are dying waiting for health care.

The main objection to one of the links at the time was regarding the
Frasier Institute, and its supposed backers, as being anti-Canadian
medical system. Whether this is true or not, I can not determine.

The Frasier Institute are a bunch of whackos, and not a reliable source of
objective information, but even they aren't saying Canadians are dying
waiting for health care.

Rick
also offered that there were many other links to support his claim,
data that came from Canadian universites, labor unions, think tanks,
that would not supposedly be anti-Canadian. He did not list any other
specific link that I found.

No, he didn't.

Regarding your question, unless there is a distinction between waiting
list, and waiting lines, and irregardless of the credibility of the
links provided as evidence, I believe that rick did provide evidence to
support his claim. So my vote is yes, and I believe you KMAN owe rick a
public apology.

Please provide me with the precise quote from one of his links where it
states that Canadians have in fact died waiting in line for treatment.

Now I hope this can bring and end to the acrimony, and I would note
that though I believe rick provided the evidence, that I understand
better after reading maybe a hundred post by him that his style can be
abrasive. My only suggestion is that in the future if you want to avoid
the abrasion, don't engage him in debate. TnT
TnT

I would suggest that you be more careful in evaluating the question at hand.

If you saw evidence provided by Rick (or anywhere else) that Canadians have
died waiting in line for treatment, please post it.

On 26-Feb-2005, "BCITORGB" wrote:

But, as you well know, crime statistics are not easily compared. What
may be recorded as a "crime" in Britain, may be recorded as a nuisance
in Canada or the USA. I don't know, and neither do you. If we're to
talk about "violent crimes" and incidents of "violent crime", then we
need to ensure that we're talking about the same thing in each country.
To date, everything that I've read indicates that people much more
knowledgeable and you or I are grappling with these comparisons.

One very important characteristic of these statistics is the change in
the way spousal abuse has been treated over the years. What used to
be a "family problem" is now a crime. This change has taken place
at different rates in different countries over the last several decades.

Mike

"KMAN" wrote in message
. ..

"Tinkerntom

snip...

what this is about.

Have you seen rick provide any evidence to support a claim
that
Canadians
are dying in waiting lines for health care?

[] Yes
[] No

Ok I'll try to answer you! Last night, I spent several hours
going
through the archives of this discussion, reading several
hundred post
by Kman, frtwz, Mike D, Wilko, Scott W, and of course our good
friend
rick. I do not know whether rick will abide by my arbitration
in this
matter though so I am not sure whether I should wait for him
to agree.
However, he did say in one of his post even this AM, that he
stands by
his record, and that he posted as he claims evidence of
Canadians dying
while on wait list for medical procedures and Tests. I am
assuming also
that being on a wait list is the same thing as being in a wait
line. If
they are different, I did not find any claim by rick that
people are
dying in an actual line while waiting, or evidence to support
any such
claim.

Right. That's all I am saying.

You should have simply ticked "yes" instead of babbling on, but
oh well.

He has not provided any evidence that Canadians are dying
waiting in line (or waiting on a list) for health care.
==============
Yes, I have.



However, on 2/20 at 9:32 Rick presented 4 links as evidence to
support
his claim that Canadians were dying while on wait list, and
receiving
late, slow, and inadequate medical procedures. That if a
Canadian had
the funding, that he could go to the USA and receive prompt
medical
attention, and that in Canada, such outsoursing was considered
illegal,
and subject to a substantial penalty. Rick was not comparing
the
advantages or disadvantages of the two systems, nor even
saying that
the American system was good at all. He was only commenting on
the
Canadian system that resulted in long wait times for certain
procedures

In certain rare circumstances, particularly in geographically
isolated areas, or for unique specialty tests, yes.
======================
And treatment. Even YOU have said Canadians wait for treatment.


and tests that at times resulted in people dying before they
could
receive the medical attention that could have served to save
their
lives.

There is no evidence of that.
==============
Yes, there is.


He was not saying that once the people actually received the
medical attention, that the medical practices themselves were
inadequate or non-professional. The 4 links are as follow:

http://www.nupge.ca/news_2000/News%20May/n12my00a.htm
http://www.cato.org/dailys/07-24-04.html
http://www.utoronto.ca/hpme/dhr/pdf/Barer-Lewis.pdf

http://www.angelfire.com/pa/sergeman...oysplight.html

Yes, I saw all of them.

None of them say that Canadians are dying waiting for health
care.
=======================
ROTFLMAO You really are that stupid, aren't you? The very first
first one says otherwise right in the headline of the article.
Are you really so set on being the worlds worst liar that you
continue even when the evidence is in front of you?



The main objection to one of the links at the time was
regarding the
Frasier Institute, and its supposed backers, as being
anti-Canadian
medical system. Whether this is true or not, I can not
determine.

The Frasier Institute are a bunch of whackos,
======================
Says the head whacko?


and not a reliable source of
objective information, but even they aren't saying Canadians
are dying waiting for health care.
================
LOL Selective reading there too?



Rick
also offered that there were many other links to support his
claim,
data that came from Canadian universites, labor unions, think
tanks,
that would not supposedly be anti-Canadian. He did not list
any other
specific link that I found.

No, he didn't.
===============
Because fool, you have already shown that if I list a link, you
have some reason not to believe it. I offered you the
face-saving way out by finding your own information. You proved
instead that you wished to remain willfully ignorant.



Regarding your question, unless there is a distinction between
waiting
list, and waiting lines, and irregardless of the credibility
of the
links provided as evidence, I believe that rick did provide
evidence to
support his claim. So my vote is yes, and I believe you KMAN
owe rick a
public apology.

Please provide me with the precise quote from one of his links
where it states that Canadians have in fact died waiting in
line for treatment.
================
Read them fool. Then write them and ask. Afterall, they are
YOUR countrymen. I'm sure they'll give you the info. But, as I
have stated before, you are too afraid to find out the truth.



Now I hope this can bring and end to the acrimony, and I would
note
that though I believe rick provided the evidence, that I
understand
better after reading maybe a hundred post by him that his
style can be
abrasive. My only suggestion is that in the future if you want
to avoid
the abrasion, don't engage him in debate. TnT
TnT

I would suggest that you be more careful in evaluating the
question at hand.

If you saw evidence provided by Rick (or anywhere else) that
Canadians have died waiting in line for treatment, please post
it.
==================
It just was, fool, again. That you wish to ignore it is your
problem!

"KMAN" wrote in message
. ..

"rick" wrote in message
k.net...

"KMAN" wrote in message
. ..

"rick" wrote in message
.net...

"KMAN" wrote in message
...
in article , KMAN at
wrote on 2/28/05 12:59 AM:


snippage...

"I agree, that you claim, that he made the claim, and
failed to support
it. No mystery here after watching this squabble for the
last week!"

...I missed out on the weasel words you threw in there. I
guess you really
are afraid of rick!

While you are still up, Tinkerntom, let me see if you are
not too big of a
coward to give a straight answer.

Have you seen rick provide any evidence to support a claim
that Canadians
are dying in waiting lines for health care?
===============
Nice strawman there fool. He already siad he wasn't,
BECAUSE he did not go back and read the previous posts.
Man, you really are this stupid, aren't you?

Right. So thus far not one person on rec.boats.paddle has
seen anything from you that proves what you have claimed.
===============
No fool, I have provided sites that show that Canadians are
dying in wait lines.

Not one other person has seen anything from you to substantiate
your claims.
====================
You just lied, yet again. But then, you've already proven that
that is what you are best at, eh?

"KMAN" wrote in message
. ..


snip...







If you are using cars as a justification for assault
weapons,
then you are
comparing the two, fool. LOL.
==========================
No fool. It is you that is trying to justify something
based on
what YOU determine to be a need. You failed.

You brought up cars, not me.
======================
No, you brought up the "need" of an object being the
determination whether or not people should have them. You
lost, again, and now have you resort to your ignorant
spews...

You brought up cars. Check.
===============
LOL STill as dense and stupid as ever I see, eh liar?

Nope. You brought up cars. Check.
======================
No, you brought up the "need" of an object being the
determination
whether or not people should have them. You lost, again, and now
have
you resort to your ignorant spews... checkmate, proven liar...

Weiser rejects thesis that there is a causal link between poverty and
crime:
==============
one fairly well-established cause of crime is unemployment,
underemployment, and poverty (Scott, as you so eloquently said in
your
"What I'd do to lazy welfare Queens" treatise, idle hands do the
devil's work).

Sorry, but no. I dispute your thesis and your conclusion.
======================

Reject my thesis and my conclusion if you will. May I offer up the
conclusions of Chinese economists and Chinese leaders on the topic of
income disparity and crime (and revolution):

"SOURCE:
http://www.macrochina.com.cn/english...10002002.shtml

Aug 10 2001

Income disparity in China

There is increasing concern about income disparity around China. Last
March, Premier Zhu Rongji said according to 1999 figures the Gini
coefficient (used to measure income inequality) of China was 0.39,
''close to the internationally recognized danger level''.

Some Chinese economists, however, believe that the ''danger level'' has
already been passed, and that official statistics considerably
understate the income gap.

At any rate, there is no doubt that China is in the grip of widespread
discontent. Rising crime and serious, if sporadic, protests are a sign
that even though absolute poverty is declining, at least in the
countryside, rising relative poverty is resented. And in the cities,
absolute poverty is increasing as well.

Small wonder then if Chinese leaders are spooked by income disparities
that are ominously similar to those that fuelled the revolution 50
years ago. (Economist.com)"


Well, Scott?

frtzw906

BCITORGB wrote:

Weiser says:
==================
The facts are quite clear: In nations where guns are banned,
victimization
by violent criminals increases dramatically. In the United States,
crime
victimization by violent criminals is dropping.
===============

I'll not dispute your sources and data.... except, as you well know,
because you presented this data, the definitions of various sorts of
crimes vary considerably from country to country. What may be deemed an
assault in one country may not be recorded as an assault in another.
Thus, the stats may not be comparable.

Talking about guns, one of the main issues that the NRA and similar
pro-gun organisations here wipe under the carpet is the counting of
bee-bee guns and air rifles under the "fire arms crimes" header in some
countries, that have relatively few firearms crimes overall.

Thus, whether I'm trying to "bend" the debate is hardly the point. The
point is, more or less, a murder, is a murder, is a murder, no matter
where we are on the globe. Murder stats are comparable. The others
aren't.

If you're murdered, it doesn't really matter if you're shot, strangled,
stabbed or killed in one of the multitude of other ways that are
available. The thing with guns is that they make killing someone a lot
bigger, stronger or better able to fight hand to hand than you pretty
easy. That's where the U.S. outranks most western nations: the available
means to kill someone (i.e. guns) are available all over the place in
huge quantities and the people willing to use them are also plentiful.
The result is very high murder rates.

--
Wilko van den Bergh wilko(a t)dse(d o t)nl
Eindhoven The Netherlands Europe
---Look at the possibilities, don't worry about the limitations.---
http://wilko.webzone.ru/

"rick" wrote in message
k.net...

"KMAN" wrote in message
. ..

"Tinkerntom

snip...

what this is about.

Have you seen rick provide any evidence to support a claim that
Canadians
are dying in waiting lines for health care?

[] Yes
[] No

Ok I'll try to answer you! Last night, I spent several hours going
through the archives of this discussion, reading several hundred post
by Kman, frtwz, Mike D, Wilko, Scott W, and of course our good friend
rick. I do not know whether rick will abide by my arbitration in this
matter though so I am not sure whether I should wait for him to agree.
However, he did say in one of his post even this AM, that he stands by
his record, and that he posted as he claims evidence of Canadians dying
while on wait list for medical procedures and Tests. I am assuming also
that being on a wait list is the same thing as being in a wait line. If
they are different, I did not find any claim by rick that people are
dying in an actual line while waiting, or evidence to support any such
claim.

Right. That's all I am saying.

You should have simply ticked "yes" instead of babbling on, but oh well.

He has not provided any evidence that Canadians are dying waiting in line
(or waiting on a list) for health care.
==============
Yes, I have.

Post it.

However, on 2/20 at 9:32 Rick presented 4 links as evidence to support
his claim that Canadians were dying while on wait list, and receiving
late, slow, and inadequate medical procedures. That if a Canadian had
the funding, that he could go to the USA and receive prompt medical
attention, and that in Canada, such outsoursing was considered illegal,
and subject to a substantial penalty. Rick was not comparing the
advantages or disadvantages of the two systems, nor even saying that
the American system was good at all. He was only commenting on the
Canadian system that resulted in long wait times for certain procedures

In certain rare circumstances, particularly in geographically isolated
areas, or for unique specialty tests, yes.
======================
And treatment. Even YOU have said Canadians wait for treatment.

Of course. People wait for treatment in every health care system. That's why
all hospitals have waiting rooms.

and tests that at times resulted in people dying before they could
receive the medical attention that could have served to save their
lives.

There is no evidence of that.
==============
Yes, there is.

Post it.

He was not saying that once the people actually received the
medical attention, that the medical practices themselves were
inadequate or non-professional. The 4 links are as follow:

http://www.nupge.ca/news_2000/News%20May/n12my00a.htm
http://www.cato.org/dailys/07-24-04.html
http://www.utoronto.ca/hpme/dhr/pdf/Barer-Lewis.pdf

http://www.angelfire.com/pa/sergeman...oysplight.html

Yes, I saw all of them.

None of them say that Canadians are dying waiting for health care.
=======================
ROTFLMAO You really are that stupid, aren't you? The very first first
one says otherwise right in the headline of the article. Are you really so
set on being the worlds worst liar that you continue even when the
evidence is in front of you?

That's a shoddy article by a union looking for more money.

Is there a coroner's report that says Mr X. died because he was waiting?

How can one crappy article by a union looking for money be considered
evidence?

The main objection to one of the links at the time was regarding the
Frasier Institute, and its supposed backers, as being anti-Canadian
medical system. Whether this is true or not, I can not determine.

The Frasier Institute are a bunch of whackos,
======================
Says the head whacko?

No, that would be Michael Walker.

and not a reliable source of
objective information, but even they aren't saying Canadians are dying
waiting for health care.
================
LOL Selective reading there too?

Post the proof using your own superior reading skills.



Rick
also offered that there were many other links to support his claim,
data that came from Canadian universites, labor unions, think tanks,
that would not supposedly be anti-Canadian. He did not list any other
specific link that I found.

No, he didn't.
===============
Because fool, you have already shown that if I list a link, you have some
reason not to believe it. I offered you the face-saving way out by
finding your own information. You proved instead that you wished to
remain willfully ignorant.

Nothing in your link proves that Canadians are dying because they are
waiting in health care lines.

Regarding your question, unless there is a distinction between waiting
list, and waiting lines, and irregardless of the credibility of the
links provided as evidence, I believe that rick did provide evidence to
support his claim. So my vote is yes, and I believe you KMAN owe rick a
public apology.

Please provide me with the precise quote from one of his links where it
states that Canadians have in fact died waiting in line for treatment.
================
Read them fool. Then write them and ask. Afterall, they are YOUR
countrymen. I'm sure they'll give you the info. But, as I have stated
before, you are too afraid to find out the truth.

What kind of an ass would refuse to simply post the evidence if it existed?

You are a liar and a coward.



Now I hope this can bring and end to the acrimony, and I would note
that though I believe rick provided the evidence, that I understand
better after reading maybe a hundred post by him that his style can be
abrasive. My only suggestion is that in the future if you want to avoid
the abrasion, don't engage him in debate. TnT
TnT

I would suggest that you be more careful in evaluating the question at
hand.

If you saw evidence provided by Rick (or anywhere else) that Canadians
have died waiting in line for treatment, please post it.
==================
It just was, fool, again. That you wish to ignore it is your problem!

It's not there.

"rick" wrote in message
.net...

"KMAN" wrote in message
. ..

"rick" wrote in message
k.net...

"KMAN" wrote in message
. ..

"rick" wrote in message
.net...

"KMAN" wrote in message
...
in article , KMAN at
wrote on 2/28/05 12:59 AM:


snippage...

"I agree, that you claim, that he made the claim, and failed to
support
it. No mystery here after watching this squabble for the last week!"

...I missed out on the weasel words you threw in there. I guess you
really
are afraid of rick!

While you are still up, Tinkerntom, let me see if you are not too big
of a
coward to give a straight answer.

Have you seen rick provide any evidence to support a claim that
Canadians
are dying in waiting lines for health care?
===============
Nice strawman there fool. He already siad he wasn't, BECAUSE he did
not go back and read the previous posts.
Man, you really are this stupid, aren't you?

Right. So thus far not one person on rec.boats.paddle has seen anything
from you that proves what you have claimed.
===============
No fool, I have provided sites that show that Canadians are
dying in wait lines.

Not one other person has seen anything from you to substantiate your
claims.
====================
You just lied, yet again. But then, you've already proven that that is
what you are best at, eh?

Tinkerntom now says he thinks he has. But then, I don't think he understood
the question. Which is nothing new.