I know that this is a really, really broad question about engine hours
(that is below), but since I'm new here, I'll naively ask it anyway.

Having been a life-long sailor, I now have 4 kids and am in the power
boat mode. So, I am searching for a nice 1960's wooden cabin cruiser
in the 33'-38' foot range. Give or take a little if it's the right
boat. I don't want to spend a ton of money, either. Let's say my
budget is $12,000-$20,000.

I have seen a wide variety of these boats on the internet in a wide
variety of conditions. What I am interested in is a good, reliable boat
that I can take the family on weekend outings in the San Joaquin delta
or maybe SF Bay. The boat doesn't have too look factory new, but I
don't want it to look like its on its last legs either. Just solid and
presentable.

I've been around boats all of my life and I don't mind quaint, 40 year
old ways of doing things. That's part of the charm.

So here's the question: what is a reasonable number of hours that one
can expect from average type use on one of this type of boats? (see, I
told you it was a broad question).

Let's say a typical family owwner who doesn't push the boat that hard
that often and uses it a reasonable amount each year. With typical
maintenance what's reasonable? I see boats with 300 hours (good) and
1,600 hours (bad?) and I've read somewhere that about 1,000 is typical
(that's about 60,000 miles in auto speak if I drive 60 mph and get to
1,000 hours.

What can I use as a guide?

Thanks!

You'll want to do a mechanical survey or engine inspection on any used
boat.

It could be a mistake to assume that any gas engine with just a few
hundred hours on it must be in good mechanical condition. It doesn't
take too many hundred hours of neglect and abuse to destroy an engine.

It could also be a mistake to just write off boats with over 1000 hours
as unworthy of inspection or consideration.

The guys who really take special care of gas engines, and have a
moderate amount of good luck, often manage to get 2000 hours service
before major overhaul or replacement.......but not always. You'll hear
of cases where the engine lasted a good deal longer, but the reason
those stories make the rounds is because that sort of longevity is
atypical.

Once past 1200-1500 hours, most people begin to consider a gas engine
thoroughly used, if not used up.
Hopefully, the seller of the boat will have priced the vessel
accordingly.

In the end, the only variable that matters is the shape of the engine
in the boat that *you* want to buy, and that can't be determined by
hours alone. Just don't pay a premium price for a gas engine boat with
hours in the middle teens, even if it is running OK when you buy it.
Nobody expects a 65 year old man that the doctor pronounces "in perfect
health" to outlive a 35 year old receiving the same evaluation. :-)

On 4 Jan 2005 16:31:22 -0800, wrote:

You'll want to do a mechanical survey or engine inspection on any used
boat.

It could be a mistake to assume that any gas engine with just a few
hundred hours on it must be in good mechanical condition. It doesn't
take too many hundred hours of neglect and abuse to destroy an engine.

It could also be a mistake to just write off boats with over 1000 hours
as unworthy of inspection or consideration.

The guys who really take special care of gas engines, and have a
moderate amount of good luck, often manage to get 2000 hours service
before major overhaul or replacement.......but not always. You'll hear
of cases where the engine lasted a good deal longer, but the reason
those stories make the rounds is because that sort of longevity is
atypical.

Once past 1200-1500 hours, most people begin to consider a gas engine
thoroughly used, if not used up.
Hopefully, the seller of the boat will have priced the vessel
accordingly.

In the end, the only variable that matters is the shape of the engine
in the boat that *you* want to buy, and that can't be determined by
hours alone. Just don't pay a premium price for a gas engine boat with
hours in the middle teens, even if it is running OK when you buy it.
Nobody expects a 65 year old man that the doctor pronounces "in perfect
health" to outlive a 35 year old receiving the same evaluation. :-)

Good advice and well said.

John H

On the 'PocoLoco' out of Deale, MD,
on the beautiful Chesapeake Bay!

"Divide each difficulty into as many parts as is feasible and necessary to resolve it."
Rene Descartes

wrote in message
ups.com...
You'll want to do a mechanical survey or engine inspection on any used
boat.

It could be a mistake to assume that any gas engine with just a few
hundred hours on it must be in good mechanical condition. It doesn't
take too many hundred hours of neglect and abuse to destroy an engine.

It could also be a mistake to just write off boats with over 1000 hours
as unworthy of inspection or consideration.

The guys who really take special care of gas engines, and have a
moderate amount of good luck, often manage to get 2000 hours service
before major overhaul or replacement.......but not always. You'll hear
of cases where the engine lasted a good deal longer, but the reason
those stories make the rounds is because that sort of longevity is
atypical.

Once past 1200-1500 hours, most people begin to consider a gas engine
thoroughly used, if not used up.
Hopefully, the seller of the boat will have priced the vessel
accordingly.

In the end, the only variable that matters is the shape of the engine
in the boat that *you* want to buy, and that can't be determined by
hours alone. Just don't pay a premium price for a gas engine boat with
hours in the middle teens, even if it is running OK when you buy it.
Nobody expects a 65 year old man that the doctor pronounces "in perfect
health" to outlive a 35 year old receiving the same evaluation. :-)


Good advice from Chuck. Take a ride up the delta and check out the
marina's. Especially Bethel Island. I see lots of dock queens with for
sale signs in a lot of the marina's. They have been tied up a long time, so
the price may be a lot less than the 10K and you can repower and be in less
than $13k.

Get a copy of "Wooden Boat" you might find the boat of your dreams on the
last page marked for "free boats"... or then, you might get a lifetime of
trouble, too.

--
RichG manager, Carolina Skiff Owners Group on MSN
http://groups.msn.com/CarolinaSkiffOwners

On 4 Jan 2005 15:24:48 -0800, wrote:

I know that this is a really, really broad question about engine hours
(that is below), but since I'm new here, I'll naively ask it anyway.

Having been a life-long sailor, I now have 4 kids and am in the power
boat mode. So, I am searching for a nice 1960's wooden cabin cruiser
in the 33'-38' foot range. Give or take a little if it's the right
boat. I don't want to spend a ton of money, either. Let's say my
budget is $12,000-$20,000.

I have seen a wide variety of these boats on the internet in a wide
variety of conditions. What I am interested in is a good, reliable boat
that I can take the family on weekend outings in the San Joaquin delta
or maybe SF Bay. The boat doesn't have too look factory new, but I
don't want it to look like its on its last legs either. Just solid and
presentable.

I've been around boats all of my life and I don't mind quaint, 40 year
old ways of doing things. That's part of the charm.

So here's the question: what is a reasonable number of hours that one
can expect from average type use on one of this type of boats? (see, I
told you it was a broad question).

Let's say a typical family owwner who doesn't push the boat that hard
that often and uses it a reasonable amount each year. With typical
maintenance what's reasonable? I see boats with 300 hours (good) and
1,600 hours (bad?) and I've read somewhere that about 1,000 is typical
(that's about 60,000 miles in auto speak if I drive 60 mph and get to
1,000 hours.

What can I use as a guide?

Thanks!

I don't know what's good or bad, but I was told that a gas engine will
usually require a rebuild of some sort after about a thousand hours. I
do quite a bit of fishing, my engine (5.7L Mercruiser) has seen 8
seasons, and has about 490 hours thereon. I change the oil every fall,
and have never had to add any. I'm getting pretty good service out of
it. I should have replaced the exhaust manifolds and risers at the
beginning of this past season, but thought I could get another year
out of them. I didn't.

I do my boating in the Chesapeake Bay, which probably doesn't have the
salinity of San Francisco Bay. I would guess that the higher the
salinity, the sooner you'd have to worry about rust, etc.

I have a 21' Proline with a cuddy cabin. It's comfortable, for day
tripping, with up to three additional people. I've had more on board,
but kids can put up with riding on the cuddy cabin - i.e. without a
seat.

I plan to keep my boat for several more years, unless Harry Krause
makes me an offer I can't refuse. Then I might go for a Parker.

John H

On the 'PocoLoco' out of Deale, MD,
on the beautiful Chesapeake Bay!

"Divide each difficulty into as many parts as is feasible and necessary to resolve it."
Rene Descartes

On Tuesday 04 January 2005 11:24 pm in rec.boats wrote:


Let's say a typical family owwner who doesn't push the boat that hard
that often and uses it a reasonable amount each year. With typical
maintenance what's reasonable? I see boats with 300 hours (good) and
1,600 hours (bad?) and I've read somewhere that about 1,000 is typical
(that's about 60,000 miles in auto speak if I drive 60 mph and get to
1,000 hours.

What can I use as a guide?

Average usage is generally accepted as being 100 hours/year
for main engines and 200 hours/year for generators.
Obviously some boats will do less and others rather more.

A petrol (US gasoline) engine will probably have a usefull
life of a few thousand hours, OTOH decent diesels such as
CAT or Volvo should be good for between 10,000 and 20,000
hours because they are designed for heavy truck duty.

Look for a full service history with receipts and logbooks.
A boat with twin diesels is far more likely to get you home
than a single or petrol (US gasoline) powered boat. Fuel
costs will also be better.

On a limited budget you should go for the best engines you
can find so long as the hull is good. Interior trim, carpets,
etc are easy to upgrade, replacement engines are expensive.


--
My real address is crn (at) netunix (dot) com
WARNING all messages containing attachments or html will be silently
deleted. Send only plain text.

On Wed, 05 Jan 2005 02:22:36 +0000, Chris Newport
wrote:

A petrol (US gasoline) engine will probably have a usefull
life of a few thousand hours, OTOH decent diesels such as
CAT or Volvo should be good for between 10,000 and 20,000
hours because they are designed for heavy truck duty.

===========================================

With all due respect, that is wildly optimistic. Gas engines that
make it to 2,000 hours with out a major rebuild are the exception not
the rule. Some do, but not very many, probably under 20%. More than
50% last less than 1200 hours or so in marine service. I have a 24 ft
I/O with a 1978 5.7L Chevy still going strong with countless hours but
it has been rebuilt piece-by-piece, some pieces more than once.

Marine diesels that make it past 4 or 5 thousand hours with out a
major overhaul are also the exception. Many last far less depending
on maintenance and usage.

A petrol (US gasoline) engine will probably have a usefull
life of a few thousand hours, OTOH decent diesels such as
CAT or Volvo should be good for between 10,000 and 20,000
hours because they are designed for heavy truck duty.


Dream on. The only way to realize 10,000 - 20,000 or even many more
hours from a marine diesel would be to run it almost continuously. The
average intermittent use pleasure boater will be very lucky to get
5,000 hours from a diesel, and even then it will need to be one of the
slower turning models.
You even find some old trawlers with hours up in the 6-7K range, but
10,000 or more is almost unheard of. Cripes, it would take the average
pleasure boater 50-100 years to do 10,000 hours and by that time the
darn thing would simply rust apart. :-)

wrote in message
oups.com...

Dream on. The only way to realize 10,000 - 20,000 or even many more
hours from a marine diesel would be to run it almost continuously. The
average intermittent use pleasure boater will be very lucky to get
5,000 hours from a diesel, and even then it will need to be one of the
slower turning models.
You even find some old trawlers with hours up in the 6-7K range, but
10,000 or more is almost unheard of. Cripes, it would take the average
pleasure boater 50-100 years to do 10,000 hours and by that time the
darn thing would simply rust apart. :-)


Chuck,

I realize your post is related to the boating time required to acquire over
10,000 engine hours but, in terms of engine longevity, you might be
interested in the following email response I received from Bob Smith at
American Diesel Corp. American Diesel sells replacement engines and
components and owns the inventory and intellectual property of the former
Leyman Ford.

I had posed a question regarding service life of the Leyman Ford, 120 hp
diesel in Mrs. E's Grand Banks because the engine meter showed 6800 hours.
His response was as follows:

===================================
Dear Richard,

You can expect between 20,000 - 25,000 hours before wear might require
a rebuild. At 6,800 hours it is just starting to run at it's best.
Maintain the bolt on items is the important thing. We have various upgrades
and
improvements for the 120, but you will probably find them already
installed.

What is the boat and owners name? Maybe I know the boat.

We can supply you the latest (current production) Ford engine with all
new marine equipment for about $12,000. Fits in same bolt holes. But
you will not need it.

Check out the transmission. Have oil sample done on the transmission
oil. It is probably a Borg Warner 1013-000-003 CR2 unit.

Best regards,
Bob Smith

================================================== ==========

Although I think he may be a little optimistic, Bob Smith enjoys a excellent
reputation for his knowledge and honesty. I mentioned this to the surveyor
who inspected my wife's boat and is also a Grand Banks owner and he agreed
with what Bob had said.

In my opinion the newer turbocharged diesels that are tweaking lots of
horsepower at high RPM out of small packages have a much shorter service
life. In this case however, the normally aspirated Leyman Ford is physically
almost the same size of the Volvo engines in my Navigator that produce over
three times the hp.

One final note. I have a friend who just completed his first east coast
trip from MA to Florida in his '72 Hat. with normally aspirated DD 671's.
Both engines have well over 10,000 hours as the boat has been regularly used
for fishing. They both run fine, although the port engine has some minor
scouring on one cylinder wall. The diesel mechanic that inspected it told
him not to worry about it, he still had a few thousand hours left before a
rebuild would be required.

Eisboch