Until I got the shop manuals from Plano Power, Plano, TX, I was one happy
camper with my Honda EU3000is inverter genset that is powering my stepvan
shop. Everyone who has seen it and heard it are simply amazed by how quiet
this power plant is. Many boaters and RVers have mentioned getting one so
I'd like to warn them of what I found out, today.

In the SECOND supplement to the shop manual, Honda Power Equipment has
thrown a big, double-ended, ratchet wrench into my EU3000is
experience.......

This genset has been made since 1998 or 9. The date on the shop manual is
1998 for EU2600i and EU3000is. It's not a new unit.

The original maintenance schedule, 1998, is pretty easy and routine:
Oil - Check before use, change first 20 hours and every 100 hours after
that.
Air Cleaner (paper) Clean at 50 hours replace at 200 hours
Sediment cup in carb filter clean every 100 hours.
Spark Plug - clean/adj every 100 hours, replace every 300 hours
Spark Arrester in big muffler clean every 100 hours
Valve Clearance (OHV engine) check/adj every 300 hours
Fuel tank filter - check every 300 hours
fuel line check every 2 years, replace if necessary.
All this is pretty easy to get to and standard for gas, air-cooled engines.

In Dec 1999, page 3-1 was modified to CLEAN the fuel tank filter every 300
hours, which means draining the tank. Not easy but doable. The rest
remained the same, pretty much standard for small gas engines.

Then, Supplement 61ZT700Y came out (IPC 2600.2002.02)and, once again,
replaced page 3-1 in January 2002. A new, disturbing line had been added.

COMBUSTION CHAMBER - CLEAN EVERY 500 HOURS.

WHAT THE H___??!! EVERY 500 HOURS I GOTTA OVERHAUL IT?!!

Something is wrong. Let's call Honda to make sure they didn't mean every
5000 hours. I pointed this out to my Honda dealer and he said it was crazy
and probably wrong. So, I called the factory:

American Honda Power Equipment Division
4900 Marconi Dr.
Alpharetta, GA 30005-2519
678-339-2600
Mon. - Fri. 8:30 - 5:00 EST

Customer Relations
Tel: 770-497-6400
Fax: 678-339-2519
Mon. - Fri. 8:30 - 5:30 EST

FOUR times, today, to talk to the talking heads in Customer Relations, the
office kids. One wonders if any of them could tell the difference between
the carb float and the oil level sensor float, or between the crankshaft
and the valves....???

I was put on hold for a local conversation without my hearing it.....
I was told, Yes, Honda Engineers want me to DISASSEMBLE THE WHOLE TOP OF
THE ENGINE EVERY 500 HOURS AND CLEAN OUT THE CARBON DEPOSITS.

I run this genset about 6-8 hours a work day, probably more in hot summer.
This means that EVERY OTHER or THIRD MONTH I've gotta take the whole end
off the cabinet, remove the entire air cooling shroud, exhaust system,
unbolt the overhead valve-containing head off the engine (which will surely
screw up the OHV somehow), clean the carbon off the oil-cooled head, piston
top, and cylinder/rings, then reassemble it all back the way it was with
NEW GASKETS, RETORQUING THE HEAD BOLTS, of course......EVERY OTHER OR THIRD
MONTH? I hope Honda CARS and expensive 6-cylinder MOTORCYCLES don't
suddenly fall victim to this requirement! This is a GENSET, NOT a super-
high-performance, 30,000 RPM, Formula One racing machine! IT RUNS AT 1200
RPM UNTIL THE LOAD IS OVER 1800 WATTS!!

"What went wrong with this engine that suddenly requires this new MAJOR
maintenance item that will take longer and cost far more than all the other
maintenance steps for this engine, COMBINED?", I questioned. Of course,
being the office boys, they had no idea of the WHY and, to date, I cannot
find the name and phone number of anyone related to the Honda ENGINEERS who
made this questionable decision. Maybe they don't have phones! are
slaves! Noone will answer this question, so I'm asking all of you if you
know of anything like this?

Somethin' ain't right with ANY 1-cyl engine you have to disassemble and
clean every 500 hours!.....My dealer even agrees! If anyone at Honda Power
Equipment reads this message, please answer the question for all of us!

Larry
****ed off owner.....

What would happen to our warranty claims if we required some off-the-wall
crazy, EXPENSIVE maintenance item in the schedule everyone refused to do?
Will we be able to blame any problems on NOT following the maintenance
schedule, no matter how crazy it is? How crazy is too crazy? Can car
manufacturers absolve themselves by requiring you to change the crankshaft
every 12,000 miles??

DAMN A GOOD TORQUE WRENCH IS EXPENSIVE THESE DAYS!!

Yeah, but thats just it. Your Honda lawnmower runs about 1 hour per week right?
And thats if you mow every week all year long (doubtful).

So at the most, you run that mower 52 hours per year. In 12 years you _may_ have
run it 624 hours.

A genset that runs 10 hours per day will equal that in two months of use.

Now back to Larry's bitch about having to clean the combustion chamber. Most
gasoline engines require some kind of major maintenance (like an overhaul) at
around the 2000 hour mark. With diesels, you can sometimes get TBO's in the
5000 hour range. The problem with that genset is just that you are putting
a _lot_ of hours on it in a very short time.

Does Honda mention the time before overhaul (TBO) on that engine?

Also, although it won't help with your warranty if it is still in effect, you
can probably keep from developing significant carbon deposits by using a fuel
additive which dissolves carbon. There are a number of them on the market.
You'd probably only have to run the additive every 5th to 10th tank to be
effective.

YMMV,

Don W.

WaIIy wrote:
On Thu, 29 Apr 2004 23:24:55 -0000, Larry W4CSC wrote:


Somethin' ain't right with ANY 1-cyl engine you have to disassemble and
clean every 500 hours!.....My dealer even agrees! If anyone at Honda Power
Equipment reads this message, please answer the question for all of us!


I'll sell you my Honda lawnmower to power your generator.

12 years old, never changed oil and always starts on the first pull.

Yeah, but thats just it. Your Honda lawnmower runs about 1 hour per week right?
And thats if you mow every week all year long (doubtful).

So at the most, you run that mower 52 hours per year. In 12 years you _may_ have
run it 624 hours.

A genset that runs 10 hours per day will equal that in two months of use.

Now back to Larry's bitch about having to clean the combustion chamber. Most
gasoline engines require some kind of major maintenance (like an overhaul) at
around the 2000 hour mark. With diesels, you can sometimes get TBO's in the
5000 hour range. The problem with that genset is just that you are putting
a _lot_ of hours on it in a very short time.

Does Honda mention the time before overhaul (TBO) on that engine?

Also, although it won't help with your warranty if it is still in effect, you
can probably keep from developing significant carbon deposits by using a fuel
additive which dissolves carbon. There are a number of them on the market.
You'd probably only have to run the additive every 5th to 10th tank to be
effective.

YMMV,

Don W.

WaIIy wrote:
On Thu, 29 Apr 2004 23:24:55 -0000, Larry W4CSC wrote:


Somethin' ain't right with ANY 1-cyl engine you have to disassemble and
clean every 500 hours!.....My dealer even agrees! If anyone at Honda Power
Equipment reads this message, please answer the question for all of us!


I'll sell you my Honda lawnmower to power your generator.

12 years old, never changed oil and always starts on the first pull.

Larry,

You are being advised to do this maintainence to protect the engine
exhaust emission levels.

Let me tell you what is going on here. (Having worked with engines most
of my life and fought the emissions battle more than a few times.)

Little engines fall into an emissions control catagory where emissions
controls are not required at all times but to meet the emissions
performance over the engines rated life, the builder has determined that
decarboning the combustion chamber will maintain the required
performance.

Carbon fouling of the combustion chamber is a significant cause of
emissions increase.

Could they doing something else?

Yes-

They can fit the engine with computer controlled fuel system and a
catalytic converter.

The engine could be redesigned for liquid cooling so it can be run
closer to stoichiometic (idea air/fuel ratio).

Is this maintenance item absolutely required to maintain satisfactory
operation of your genset? - Not likely.

But, if Honda does not require this service as stipualated maintenance,
they can not sell them in this country at all.

If that did not answer your question, try again and I will too.

Matt Colie


Larry W4CSC wrote:
Until I got the shop manuals from Plano Power, Plano, TX, I was one happy
camper with my Honda EU3000is inverter genset that is powering my stepvan
shop. Everyone who has seen it and heard it are simply amazed by how quiet
this power plant is. Many boaters and RVers have mentioned getting one so
I'd like to warn them of what I found out, today.

In the SECOND supplement to the shop manual, Honda Power Equipment has
thrown a big, double-ended, ratchet wrench into my EU3000is
experience.......

This genset has been made since 1998 or 9. The date on the shop manual is
1998 for EU2600i and EU3000is. It's not a new unit.

The original maintenance schedule, 1998, is pretty easy and routine:
Oil - Check before use, change first 20 hours and every 100 hours after
that.
Air Cleaner (paper) Clean at 50 hours replace at 200 hours
Sediment cup in carb filter clean every 100 hours.
Spark Plug - clean/adj every 100 hours, replace every 300 hours
Spark Arrester in big muffler clean every 100 hours
Valve Clearance (OHV engine) check/adj every 300 hours
Fuel tank filter - check every 300 hours
fuel line check every 2 years, replace if necessary.
All this is pretty easy to get to and standard for gas, air-cooled engines.

In Dec 1999, page 3-1 was modified to CLEAN the fuel tank filter every 300
hours, which means draining the tank. Not easy but doable. The rest
remained the same, pretty much standard for small gas engines.

Then, Supplement 61ZT700Y came out (IPC 2600.2002.02)and, once again,
replaced page 3-1 in January 2002. A new, disturbing line had been added.

COMBUSTION CHAMBER - CLEAN EVERY 500 HOURS.

WHAT THE H___??!! EVERY 500 HOURS I GOTTA OVERHAUL IT?!!

Something is wrong. Let's call Honda to make sure they didn't mean every
5000 hours. I pointed this out to my Honda dealer and he said it was crazy
and probably wrong. So, I called the factory:

American Honda Power Equipment Division
4900 Marconi Dr.
Alpharetta, GA 30005-2519
678-339-2600
Mon. - Fri. 8:30 - 5:00 EST

Customer Relations
Tel: 770-497-6400
Fax: 678-339-2519
Mon. - Fri. 8:30 - 5:30 EST

FOUR times, today, to talk to the talking heads in Customer Relations, the
office kids. One wonders if any of them could tell the difference between
the carb float and the oil level sensor float, or between the crankshaft
and the valves....???

I was put on hold for a local conversation without my hearing it.....
I was told, Yes, Honda Engineers want me to DISASSEMBLE THE WHOLE TOP OF
THE ENGINE EVERY 500 HOURS AND CLEAN OUT THE CARBON DEPOSITS.

I run this genset about 6-8 hours a work day, probably more in hot summer.
This means that EVERY OTHER or THIRD MONTH I've gotta take the whole end
off the cabinet, remove the entire air cooling shroud, exhaust system,
unbolt the overhead valve-containing head off the engine (which will surely
screw up the OHV somehow), clean the carbon off the oil-cooled head, piston
top, and cylinder/rings, then reassemble it all back the way it was with
NEW GASKETS, RETORQUING THE HEAD BOLTS, of course......EVERY OTHER OR THIRD
MONTH? I hope Honda CARS and expensive 6-cylinder MOTORCYCLES don't
suddenly fall victim to this requirement! This is a GENSET, NOT a super-
high-performance, 30,000 RPM, Formula One racing machine! IT RUNS AT 1200
RPM UNTIL THE LOAD IS OVER 1800 WATTS!!

"What went wrong with this engine that suddenly requires this new MAJOR
maintenance item that will take longer and cost far more than all the other
maintenance steps for this engine, COMBINED?", I questioned. Of course,
being the office boys, they had no idea of the WHY and, to date, I cannot
find the name and phone number of anyone related to the Honda ENGINEERS who
made this questionable decision. Maybe they don't have phones! are
slaves! Noone will answer this question, so I'm asking all of you if you
know of anything like this?

Somethin' ain't right with ANY 1-cyl engine you have to disassemble and
clean every 500 hours!.....My dealer even agrees! If anyone at Honda Power
Equipment reads this message, please answer the question for all of us!

Larry
****ed off owner.....

What would happen to our warranty claims if we required some off-the-wall
crazy, EXPENSIVE maintenance item in the schedule everyone refused to do?
Will we be able to blame any problems on NOT following the maintenance
schedule, no matter how crazy it is? How crazy is too crazy? Can car
manufacturers absolve themselves by requiring you to change the crankshaft
every 12,000 miles??

DAMN A GOOD TORQUE WRENCH IS EXPENSIVE THESE DAYS!!

Larry,

You are being advised to do this maintainence to protect the engine
exhaust emission levels.

Let me tell you what is going on here. (Having worked with engines most
of my life and fought the emissions battle more than a few times.)

Little engines fall into an emissions control catagory where emissions
controls are not required at all times but to meet the emissions
performance over the engines rated life, the builder has determined that
decarboning the combustion chamber will maintain the required
performance.

Carbon fouling of the combustion chamber is a significant cause of
emissions increase.

Could they doing something else?

Yes-

They can fit the engine with computer controlled fuel system and a
catalytic converter.

The engine could be redesigned for liquid cooling so it can be run
closer to stoichiometic (idea air/fuel ratio).

Is this maintenance item absolutely required to maintain satisfactory
operation of your genset? - Not likely.

But, if Honda does not require this service as stipualated maintenance,
they can not sell them in this country at all.

If that did not answer your question, try again and I will too.

Matt Colie


Larry W4CSC wrote:
Until I got the shop manuals from Plano Power, Plano, TX, I was one happy
camper with my Honda EU3000is inverter genset that is powering my stepvan
shop. Everyone who has seen it and heard it are simply amazed by how quiet
this power plant is. Many boaters and RVers have mentioned getting one so
I'd like to warn them of what I found out, today.

In the SECOND supplement to the shop manual, Honda Power Equipment has
thrown a big, double-ended, ratchet wrench into my EU3000is
experience.......

This genset has been made since 1998 or 9. The date on the shop manual is
1998 for EU2600i and EU3000is. It's not a new unit.

The original maintenance schedule, 1998, is pretty easy and routine:
Oil - Check before use, change first 20 hours and every 100 hours after
that.
Air Cleaner (paper) Clean at 50 hours replace at 200 hours
Sediment cup in carb filter clean every 100 hours.
Spark Plug - clean/adj every 100 hours, replace every 300 hours
Spark Arrester in big muffler clean every 100 hours
Valve Clearance (OHV engine) check/adj every 300 hours
Fuel tank filter - check every 300 hours
fuel line check every 2 years, replace if necessary.
All this is pretty easy to get to and standard for gas, air-cooled engines.

In Dec 1999, page 3-1 was modified to CLEAN the fuel tank filter every 300
hours, which means draining the tank. Not easy but doable. The rest
remained the same, pretty much standard for small gas engines.

Then, Supplement 61ZT700Y came out (IPC 2600.2002.02)and, once again,
replaced page 3-1 in January 2002. A new, disturbing line had been added.

COMBUSTION CHAMBER - CLEAN EVERY 500 HOURS.

WHAT THE H___??!! EVERY 500 HOURS I GOTTA OVERHAUL IT?!!

Something is wrong. Let's call Honda to make sure they didn't mean every
5000 hours. I pointed this out to my Honda dealer and he said it was crazy
and probably wrong. So, I called the factory:

American Honda Power Equipment Division
4900 Marconi Dr.
Alpharetta, GA 30005-2519
678-339-2600
Mon. - Fri. 8:30 - 5:00 EST

Customer Relations
Tel: 770-497-6400
Fax: 678-339-2519
Mon. - Fri. 8:30 - 5:30 EST

FOUR times, today, to talk to the talking heads in Customer Relations, the
office kids. One wonders if any of them could tell the difference between
the carb float and the oil level sensor float, or between the crankshaft
and the valves....???

I was put on hold for a local conversation without my hearing it.....
I was told, Yes, Honda Engineers want me to DISASSEMBLE THE WHOLE TOP OF
THE ENGINE EVERY 500 HOURS AND CLEAN OUT THE CARBON DEPOSITS.

I run this genset about 6-8 hours a work day, probably more in hot summer.
This means that EVERY OTHER or THIRD MONTH I've gotta take the whole end
off the cabinet, remove the entire air cooling shroud, exhaust system,
unbolt the overhead valve-containing head off the engine (which will surely
screw up the OHV somehow), clean the carbon off the oil-cooled head, piston
top, and cylinder/rings, then reassemble it all back the way it was with
NEW GASKETS, RETORQUING THE HEAD BOLTS, of course......EVERY OTHER OR THIRD
MONTH? I hope Honda CARS and expensive 6-cylinder MOTORCYCLES don't
suddenly fall victim to this requirement! This is a GENSET, NOT a super-
high-performance, 30,000 RPM, Formula One racing machine! IT RUNS AT 1200
RPM UNTIL THE LOAD IS OVER 1800 WATTS!!

"What went wrong with this engine that suddenly requires this new MAJOR
maintenance item that will take longer and cost far more than all the other
maintenance steps for this engine, COMBINED?", I questioned. Of course,
being the office boys, they had no idea of the WHY and, to date, I cannot
find the name and phone number of anyone related to the Honda ENGINEERS who
made this questionable decision. Maybe they don't have phones! are
slaves! Noone will answer this question, so I'm asking all of you if you
know of anything like this?

Somethin' ain't right with ANY 1-cyl engine you have to disassemble and
clean every 500 hours!.....My dealer even agrees! If anyone at Honda Power
Equipment reads this message, please answer the question for all of us!

Larry
****ed off owner.....

What would happen to our warranty claims if we required some off-the-wall
crazy, EXPENSIVE maintenance item in the schedule everyone refused to do?
Will we be able to blame any problems on NOT following the maintenance
schedule, no matter how crazy it is? How crazy is too crazy? Can car
manufacturers absolve themselves by requiring you to change the crankshaft
every 12,000 miles??

DAMN A GOOD TORQUE WRENCH IS EXPENSIVE THESE DAYS!!

On Fri, 30 Apr 2004 15:50:39 GMT, Don W
wrote:


Also, although it won't help with your warranty if it is still in effect, you
can probably keep from developing significant carbon deposits by using a fuel
additive which dissolves carbon. There are a number of them on the market.
You'd probably only have to run the additive every 5th to 10th tank to be
effective.

YMMV,

Don W.

NOW you're talking! Like a scent spray bottle of distiled water
in the carb throat every 250 hours.....

Brian W

On Fri, 30 Apr 2004 15:50:39 GMT, Don W
wrote:


Also, although it won't help with your warranty if it is still in effect, you
can probably keep from developing significant carbon deposits by using a fuel
additive which dissolves carbon. There are a number of them on the market.
You'd probably only have to run the additive every 5th to 10th tank to be
effective.

YMMV,

Don W.

NOW you're talking! Like a scent spray bottle of distiled water
in the carb throat every 250 hours.....

Brian W

Don W wrote in
m:

Yeah, but thats just it. Your Honda lawnmower runs about 1 hour per
week right? And thats if you mow every week all year long (doubtful).

So at the most, you run that mower 52 hours per year. In 12 years you
_may_ have run it 624 hours.

A genset that runs 10 hours per day will equal that in two months of
use.

Now back to Larry's bitch about having to clean the combustion
chamber. Most gasoline engines require some kind of major maintenance
(like an overhaul) at around the 2000 hour mark. With diesels, you
can sometimes get TBO's in the 5000 hour range. The problem with that
genset is just that you are putting a _lot_ of hours on it in a very
short time.

Does Honda mention the time before overhaul (TBO) on that engine?

No, not at all. I don't think they have "overhaul" in mind...(c;

Last night I downloaded about 20 new owner's manuals off Honda's website
for all kinds of power equipment. EVERY ONE of them now has this clean-
the-carbon-out-the-hard-way nonsense! This makes me suspicious that some
government bureaucrat hell bent on breathing the exhaust instead of the air
is behind this. Not all the Honda engines could have carboned up all at
once in 2002....(c;


Also, although it won't help with your warranty if it is still in
effect, you can probably keep from developing significant carbon
deposits by using a fuel additive which dissolves carbon. There are a
number of them on the market. You'd probably only have to run the
additive every 5th to 10th tank to be effective.

There's no hourmeter on any of it, and they tell the commercial users of it
to keep a logbook so they know how many hours it has run. Right next to
the 12V cigarette lighter jack I installed over the AGM starting battery so
I could monitor its state of charge and charging without complete
disassembly of the inverter end of the genset, I mounted a 115VAC, 60 Hz
old military hour meter that optimistically reads out to 99999.9
hours...(c; For $2 at a flea market, no hour log is necessary. I write the
hours on the meter in felt tip marker on the case above the meter to remind
me. I'm not very good at unnecessary paperwork, the reason I wasn't a very
good government bureaucrat. Next to the hourmeter is a new 60 Hz reed
frequency meter and RMS AC DVM so I can watch the output of the inverter,
mostly for fun. The reed at 60 Hz is the only one that moves no matter
what the load or motor speed! It's like crystal controlled! I also leave
a little goose neck 12V map light plugged into the cig lighter outlet so I
can click it on to see how we're doing in the dark. (Honda, feel free to
add the lighter jack and $2 light from Dollar General. I release the idea
to the public domain.)

I'd put a plexiglass window in the aluminum, fold down weather cover I made
for its permanent mounting, but that would invite the thieves too much.

Larry
I must admit it IS kinda fun being your own power company....(c;

Don W wrote in
m:

Yeah, but thats just it. Your Honda lawnmower runs about 1 hour per
week right? And thats if you mow every week all year long (doubtful).

So at the most, you run that mower 52 hours per year. In 12 years you
_may_ have run it 624 hours.

A genset that runs 10 hours per day will equal that in two months of
use.

Now back to Larry's bitch about having to clean the combustion
chamber. Most gasoline engines require some kind of major maintenance
(like an overhaul) at around the 2000 hour mark. With diesels, you
can sometimes get TBO's in the 5000 hour range. The problem with that
genset is just that you are putting a _lot_ of hours on it in a very
short time.

Does Honda mention the time before overhaul (TBO) on that engine?

No, not at all. I don't think they have "overhaul" in mind...(c;

Last night I downloaded about 20 new owner's manuals off Honda's website
for all kinds of power equipment. EVERY ONE of them now has this clean-
the-carbon-out-the-hard-way nonsense! This makes me suspicious that some
government bureaucrat hell bent on breathing the exhaust instead of the air
is behind this. Not all the Honda engines could have carboned up all at
once in 2002....(c;


Also, although it won't help with your warranty if it is still in
effect, you can probably keep from developing significant carbon
deposits by using a fuel additive which dissolves carbon. There are a
number of them on the market. You'd probably only have to run the
additive every 5th to 10th tank to be effective.

There's no hourmeter on any of it, and they tell the commercial users of it
to keep a logbook so they know how many hours it has run. Right next to
the 12V cigarette lighter jack I installed over the AGM starting battery so
I could monitor its state of charge and charging without complete
disassembly of the inverter end of the genset, I mounted a 115VAC, 60 Hz
old military hour meter that optimistically reads out to 99999.9
hours...(c; For $2 at a flea market, no hour log is necessary. I write the
hours on the meter in felt tip marker on the case above the meter to remind
me. I'm not very good at unnecessary paperwork, the reason I wasn't a very
good government bureaucrat. Next to the hourmeter is a new 60 Hz reed
frequency meter and RMS AC DVM so I can watch the output of the inverter,
mostly for fun. The reed at 60 Hz is the only one that moves no matter
what the load or motor speed! It's like crystal controlled! I also leave
a little goose neck 12V map light plugged into the cig lighter outlet so I
can click it on to see how we're doing in the dark. (Honda, feel free to
add the lighter jack and $2 light from Dollar General. I release the idea
to the public domain.)

I'd put a plexiglass window in the aluminum, fold down weather cover I made
for its permanent mounting, but that would invite the thieves too much.

Larry
I must admit it IS kinda fun being your own power company....(c;

Matt Colie wrote in
:


If that did not answer your question, try again and I will too.

Matt Colie


Thanks, Matt. After downloading 20 different owner's manuals for all kinds
of Honda power equipment last night and finding the same requirement now in
all of them, I suspected some government bureaucrat was involved.....

But, why couldn't Honda Power Equipment just SAY THAT on the phone when I
asked them WHY this expensive job was a requirement? It would have been so
easy.....

Larry