Tuuk wrote:

Are you nuts??

Ah...mirror, morror anyone?

See, it is educators like you that are the reason why our students here in
the west are failing or far behind students globally.

No, it is lack of adequate parenting that causes the majority of the
problem, IMO. You apparently think the existence of the public school
system is a valid basis on which parents can abdicate responsibility for
child rearing. Home education *in addition to* that provided by the
public, or private, education system, has *always* been a prerequiste
for first rate education. West or East.

And it is morons like
Harry who are the reason why our workers are failing or far behind
employment globally. Are you and harry brothers?

I didn't see a "Harry" in the thread, but ad hominem vitriol as
certainly pursuasive in informed debate...

Jack,, Give your head a shake.

"Physician, heal thyself"

Don't tell me Jack,, you were an economics professor?? lol,,

Parents should have better control on who is teaching their children, they
should see a police record, employment record (if there is one) resume, and
be allowed to interview the teachers who have influence on their children.
They do in many other countries,,, lol,,, and their students do circles
around the western student.

Yes, and parent should get involved (as in PARTICIPATE, not spectate) in
their kids education! Few parents I encounter even know the names of
their children's teachers. Schools, and school boards, respond to the
demands of the community (read 'parents'), and unfortunately, those
demands are too often for a baby-sitting service that passes children
from grade to grade irrespective of their level of attainment. Let me
ask you a couple of questions:

1. Do you think teachers (or professors for that matter) *like* to
reward students for substandard performance?
2. Do you think teachers (or professors for that matter) *like* to to
have students so disruptive that the learning environment for other
students is degraded, without having the disciplinary tools available to
address, or even ameliorate, the situation (small clue here...parents
don't *like* other people to discipline their unruly progeny)?
3. Do you think the responsibility for teaching respect, courtesy, and
discipline lies with the public school teacher (i.e. instead of with the
parents, as it has been since time immemorial)?

If you answered "yes" to any of those questions, I'll be happy to mail
you a quarter should you like to purchase a clue.


Yes,, thanks for proving my point anyway there Jack,,, you teachers have
failed both the taxpayer and the student and their future here in the west.

Once again, you miss the point. Parents have the responsibility for
preparing their children *for* school, monitoring their performance *at*
school (P.T.A., parent-teacher conferences, etc.), and changing the
educational system when it isn't functioning properly. We live in a
democracy in the US, and inherent in the democratic process is both
personal and social responsibility. Vote out the school board, the
system *will* change. Sit back and carp on newsgroups on the other hand,
and...oh, that's right, nothing happens. Get it?


You know that the west is heading for third world status,, they just said so
on the news as over 95% of all Christmas presents purchased in the west were
manufactured offshore. Ever heard of the trade deficit?

Ever heard of greed? We (in the US) live in the short term. We
artifically elevate our standard of living (on the cheap labor of third
world countries, to a large extent) without thought to long term
consequences. That is a serious social/cultural issue we certainly need
to address.

Your postulate, however, that (and I'm paraphrasing of course) if our
children were better educated, *we* would be making the clothes, shoes,
toys, TV's, VCR's, DVD players, etc. that comprise the bulk of that
"95%", is ludicrous on its face. These are produced by unskilled, or
semi-skilled workers (as commonly defined), where the cost per unit
rules the day (almost entirely a function of living standard), NOT the
education level of the workforce.

Sorry to snatch the easy bone from your jaws, but no, I'm not a teacher
(never have been, not married to one). I was, however, lucky enough to
have been raised by parents and grandparents who believed in education,
and their rearing techniques reflected it. So I know adequate parenting
when I see it, even seeing so rarely.

And to those whining about a tax rebate for home schooling, how about
for those who have no children? Shall I get a rebate for the 30 years
I've been paying property taxes for schools I'm not using? Or the roads
*I* don't personally drive on, or the Fire Department *I've* never
personally used, or...get the point? Public education, as with all
social services, benefits *society as a whole* when done properly. We
all reap the benefits, we all pay the costs. We all have a
responsibility to get out and do something when it's not done properly.
Look at voter turnout and tell me how involved people are in society.

Keith Hughes