Tuuk wrote:

Are you nuts??

Ah...mirror, morror anyone?

See, it is educators like you that are the reason why our students here in
the west are failing or far behind students globally.

No, it is lack of adequate parenting that causes the majority of the
problem, IMO. You apparently think the existence of the public school
system is a valid basis on which parents can abdicate responsibility for
child rearing. Home education *in addition to* that provided by the
public, or private, education system, has *always* been a prerequiste
for first rate education. West or East.

And it is morons like
Harry who are the reason why our workers are failing or far behind
employment globally. Are you and harry brothers?

I didn't see a "Harry" in the thread, but ad hominem vitriol as
certainly pursuasive in informed debate...

Jack,, Give your head a shake.

"Physician, heal thyself"

Don't tell me Jack,, you were an economics professor?? lol,,

Parents should have better control on who is teaching their children, they
should see a police record, employment record (if there is one) resume, and
be allowed to interview the teachers who have influence on their children.
They do in many other countries,,, lol,,, and their students do circles
around the western student.

Yes, and parent should get involved (as in PARTICIPATE, not spectate) in
their kids education! Few parents I encounter even know the names of
their children's teachers. Schools, and school boards, respond to the
demands of the community (read 'parents'), and unfortunately, those
demands are too often for a baby-sitting service that passes children
from grade to grade irrespective of their level of attainment. Let me
ask you a couple of questions:

1. Do you think teachers (or professors for that matter) *like* to
reward students for substandard performance?
2. Do you think teachers (or professors for that matter) *like* to to
have students so disruptive that the learning environment for other
students is degraded, without having the disciplinary tools available to
address, or even ameliorate, the situation (small clue here...parents
don't *like* other people to discipline their unruly progeny)?
3. Do you think the responsibility for teaching respect, courtesy, and
discipline lies with the public school teacher (i.e. instead of with the
parents, as it has been since time immemorial)?

If you answered "yes" to any of those questions, I'll be happy to mail
you a quarter should you like to purchase a clue.


Yes,, thanks for proving my point anyway there Jack,,, you teachers have
failed both the taxpayer and the student and their future here in the west.

Once again, you miss the point. Parents have the responsibility for
preparing their children *for* school, monitoring their performance *at*
school (P.T.A., parent-teacher conferences, etc.), and changing the
educational system when it isn't functioning properly. We live in a
democracy in the US, and inherent in the democratic process is both
personal and social responsibility. Vote out the school board, the
system *will* change. Sit back and carp on newsgroups on the other hand,
and...oh, that's right, nothing happens. Get it?


You know that the west is heading for third world status,, they just said so
on the news as over 95% of all Christmas presents purchased in the west were
manufactured offshore. Ever heard of the trade deficit?

Ever heard of greed? We (in the US) live in the short term. We
artifically elevate our standard of living (on the cheap labor of third
world countries, to a large extent) without thought to long term
consequences. That is a serious social/cultural issue we certainly need
to address.

Your postulate, however, that (and I'm paraphrasing of course) if our
children were better educated, *we* would be making the clothes, shoes,
toys, TV's, VCR's, DVD players, etc. that comprise the bulk of that
"95%", is ludicrous on its face. These are produced by unskilled, or
semi-skilled workers (as commonly defined), where the cost per unit
rules the day (almost entirely a function of living standard), NOT the
education level of the workforce.

Sorry to snatch the easy bone from your jaws, but no, I'm not a teacher
(never have been, not married to one). I was, however, lucky enough to
have been raised by parents and grandparents who believed in education,
and their rearing techniques reflected it. So I know adequate parenting
when I see it, even seeing so rarely.

And to those whining about a tax rebate for home schooling, how about
for those who have no children? Shall I get a rebate for the 30 years
I've been paying property taxes for schools I'm not using? Or the roads
*I* don't personally drive on, or the Fire Department *I've* never
personally used, or...get the point? Public education, as with all
social services, benefits *society as a whole* when done properly. We
all reap the benefits, we all pay the costs. We all have a
responsibility to get out and do something when it's not done properly.
Look at voter turnout and tell me how involved people are in society.

Keith Hughes

And to those whining about a tax rebate for home schooling, how about for
those who have no children? Shall I get a rebate for the 30 years I've
been paying property taxes for schools I'm not using? Or the roads *I*
don't personally drive on, or the Fire Department *I've* never personally
used, or...get the point? Public education, as with all social services,
benefits *society as a whole* when done properly. We all reap the
benefits, we all pay the costs. We all have a responsibility to get out
and do something when it's not done properly. Look at voter turnout and
tell me how involved people are in society.

Keith Hughes

Ummmm...in the context of the thread, the silly point was offered that home
schoolers should be "consistent" in their philosophy and not seek any
services from the public school system. Some of us pointed out that there is
no inconsistency in this at all, since those who home school pay into the
system through taxes and are entitled to get something out of it. Indeed,
whatever services a home schooling parent would receive is far less than
what has been paid in.

Now, even if there were a "rebate" for home schooling, that money would be
used to eduate the children in question, though outside of the public
system. This would still provide the alleged societal benefit you are
touting above. Unless, of course, the real issue isn't whether children
receive an education but whether it is the government doing it?

BTW: My wife is a public school teacher in So. California. She's a great
teacher but it's a really crappy system--massively top heavy bureaucracy,
wasteful, poorly run, etc. Granting that we cannot abolish the public
education system entirely (my personal preference), we support vouchers as a
good compromise. And as for the teacher's union, we got her out of that
years ago (though we are obligated to pay a relatively small amount of dues
that goes to the collective bargaining portion, but nothing that goes to
support their political agenda).

--Alan Gomes

Mr. Gomes

Alan Gomes wrote:
And to those whining about a tax rebate for home schooling, how about for
those who have no children? Shall I get a rebate for the 30 years I've
been paying property taxes for schools I'm not using? Or the roads *I*
don't personally drive on, or the Fire Department *I've* never personally
used, or...get the point? Public education, as with all social services,
benefits *society as a whole* when done properly. We all reap the
benefits, we all pay the costs. We all have a responsibility to get out
and do something when it's not done properly. Look at voter turnout and
tell me how involved people are in society.

Keith Hughes


Ummmm...in the context of the thread, the silly point was offered that home
schoolers should be "consistent" in their philosophy and not seek any
services from the public school system.

'Silly' how exactly?

Some of us pointed out that there is
no inconsistency in this at all, since those who home school pay into the
system through taxes and are entitled to get something out of it.

Therein lies the fallacy. You are not entitled to "get something out of
it", you are entitled to *participate in* it. My wife and I, by virtue
of being childless, *cannot* get anything out of it, yet we support the
system equally along with the 'users'. You seem to be misconstruing the
purpose of a social program. The sufficiently affluent have always opted
out of social programs, yet they have always been required to support
them. The point is, *Society* has determined the structure and number of
the social systems it supports (nearly a truism), the purpose being to
advance the needs and goals of society as a whole, not to address
individual needs. By virtue of being part of society, we are all
required to support society.

Indeed,
whatever services a home schooling parent would receive is far less than
what has been paid in.

Again, your taxes support societal needs and desires. Save for sales
tax, there is no quid pro quo relative to taxation.

Now, even if there were a "rebate" for home schooling, that money would be
used to eduate the children in question, though outside of the public
system. This would still provide the alleged societal benefit you are
touting above.

To an extent. Also, to the extent that money is withdrawn from the
public system by those who, with voucher money, can afford high cost
private schools, the public system is further impoverished, and the
education of those left behind suffers accordingly. Even in a well run
system, there will be a large fixed overhead that is not proportional to
the number of students (e.g. facilities, maintenance, utilities,
administration, etc.). As dollars are withdrawn from the system, a
higher proportion of the available dollars goes to support this
overhead, and the dollars/student drops accordingly. A net loss for
society IMO.

Unless, of course, the real issue isn't whether children
receive an education but whether it is the government doing it?

It appears that your wife is 'doing it'. Is she the government? "The
Government" is merely a mental construct we use for convenience. It does
not exist as an entity. It is 'us', and as we nurture it, it is healthy
and productive, but as we neglect it, it grows weeds or lies fallow.

BTW: My wife is a public school teacher in So. California. She's a great
teacher but it's a really crappy system--massively top heavy bureaucracy,
wasteful, poorly run, etc.

There are a great many wonderful teachers out there. I'm glad your wife
is one of them. But the system will remain "massively top heavy
bureaucracy, wasteful, poorly run, etc." as long as people continue to
be mentally lazy and talk in terms of "they", or "them", or "the
guvumint", to conveniently divorce themselves from any personal
responsibility for either creating, or solving, the problem. Again, look
at the voter turnout in this country. Can we really expect parents that
are too lazy to even vote, to put adequate effort into rearing and
educating their children?

Granting that we cannot abolish the public
education system entirely (my personal preference), we support vouchers as a
good compromise.

Well, this is a basic matter of philosophy. Abolish the public system,
and only the affluent will be able to afford decent education. And I'm
not defending the performance of the extant public school system. It
*will* however, work well with parental participation. It happens in
*MANY* places.

As for vouchers, again, they benefit the affluent, but at the cost of
impoverishing the public system. AND it's another bureaucracy, AND it
will still require tax money, AND it will still disproportionately
disadvantage poor states/counties/municipalities unless federally
administered, etc. Hardly a panacea to my mind.

And I'm sure you'll easily find a great school that you can afford with
*only* the voucher money. One at which your wife would be happy
teaching...with the concomitant salary and benefits package of course.

And as for the teacher's union, we got her out of that
years ago (though we are obligated to pay a relatively small amount of dues
that goes to the collective bargaining portion, but nothing that goes to
support their political agenda).

Historically, labor unions have played an invaluable role in forming our
society, and establishing basic human rights (i.e. labor vs. servitude).
Laudable accomplishments. They have also been a source of graft and
corruption, often on a grand scale, and thus need policed just as does
the government. Given the history of union accomplishments, the right to
unionize should clearly be protected, IMO. The 'right to work' should
also be protected, IMO. Personally, I've never been in a union, and
detest the "union mentality", at least as stereo-typified (i.e. 'it aint
*my* job, call a ______[insert trade]'), it's stupid, wasteful, and
counterproductive.

Bottom line, if you don't want "the government" involved in education,
then stay away from *MY* tax dollars - they, like yours, support society
at large, and you don't get "line-item abdication" for societal
responsibilities. You want to use private schools, great. You want to
home school, great. I have no problem with either. But *IF* tax dollars
are used for education, they should be used for the maximum benefit to
the maximum number of students, irrespective of socioeconomic status.
Vouchers don't do that. A reorganization of how public education is
funded, administered, and evaluated could. But it would be a lot more
work, and lacking sufficient motivation (i.e. angry voters), congress,
legislatures, and school boards aren't going to do it.

Keith Hughes

Ok, Keith. You win. I'm convinced. The public school system produces such a
massive societal benefit that no amount of taxation to support it is
excessive. Without it we'd have a society of kids who could not read or
write and who are in general functionally illiterate, who could not do
simple math, and who had no knowledge of world history or even of the great
books of western civilization.

Oh, wait! That's what we presently have *with* the public school system.
Quick! Someone raise my property taxes so we can throw some more money at
it!

Well, it's been fun playing. Gotta get back to life beyond usenet. So go
ahead and have the last word and I'll see you around sometime--maybe on the
water. (A feeble attempt at getting back to something sailing related
here....)

--Alan

On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 18:17:40 UTC, "Alan Gomes" wrote:

Ok, Keith. You win. I'm convinced. The public school system produces such a
massive societal benefit that no amount of taxation to support it is
excessive. Without it we'd have a society of kids who could not read or
write and who are in general functionally illiterate, who could not do
simple math, and who had no knowledge of world history or even of the great
books of western civilization.

Oh, wait! That's what we presently have *with* the public school system.
Quick! Someone raise my property taxes so we can throw some more money at
it!

A pathetic strawman setup - that's not what he said, as you well know,
but you don't know how to address what he did say.

Just to summarise/simplify it for you and the other 'public bad,
private good' folks, he did say:
the system has flaws;
it won't be fixed by opting out with your money;
it is the result of people (parents in this case) opting out with
their other resources, like participation.


Well, it's been fun playing. Gotta get back to life beyond usenet. So go
ahead and have the last word and I'll see you around sometime--maybe on the
water. (A feeble attempt at getting back to something sailing related
here....)

--Alan

Chris
--

On Sun, 26 Dec 2004 22:12:02 UTC, "Alan Gomes" wrote:

Now, even if there were a "rebate" for home schooling, that money would be
used to eduate the children in question, though outside of the public
system. This would still provide the alleged societal benefit you are
touting above. Unless, of course, the real issue isn't whether children
receive an education but whether it is the government doing it?

Yes, but we all benefit from OTHER people's children getting an
education too...

Chris-

Leaving much (edited for brevity) of Keith's diatribe for context, my
comments at the end:

"Keith Hughes" wrote in message
...

Yes, and parent should get involved (as in PARTICIPATE, not spectate) in
their kids education! Few parents I encounter even know the names of
their children's teachers. Schools, and school boards, respond to the
demands of the community (read 'parents'), and unfortunately, those
demands are too often for a baby-sitting service that passes children
from grade to grade irrespective of their level of attainment.

Once again, you miss the point. Parents have the responsibility for
preparing their children *for* school, monitoring their performance *at*
school (P.T.A., parent-teacher conferences, etc.), and changing the
educational system when it isn't functioning properly. We live in a
democracy in the US, and inherent in the democratic process is both
personal and social responsibility. Vote out the school board, the
system *will* change. Sit back and carp on newsgroups on the other hand,
and...oh, that's right, nothing happens. Get it?

Sorry to snatch the easy bone from your jaws, but no, I'm not a teacher
(never have been, not married to one). I was, however, lucky enough to
have been raised by parents and grandparents who believed in education,
and their rearing techniques reflected it. So I know adequate parenting
when I see it, even seeing so rarely.

And to those whining about a tax rebate for home schooling, how about
for those who have no children? Shall I get a rebate for the 30 years
I've been paying property taxes for schools I'm not using? Or the roads
*I* don't personally drive on, or the Fire Department *I've* never
personally used, or...get the point? Public education, as with all
social services, benefits *society as a whole* when done properly. We
all reap the benefits, we all pay the costs. We all have a
responsibility to get out and do something when it's not done properly.
Look at voter turnout and tell me how involved people are in society.

Keith Hughes

Interesting you should say that. In our county, for a few years out of the
last several, the fastest growing in the country (read: infrastructure
challenges), 65 and over get exempted from the school portion of the
property taxes.

As that comprises about 90% of the property tax burden, and they then also
get a homestead exemption, doubled for 65, seniors in our county get to kick
back for a few years until they snuff it. If I'd have known that, I'd have
the technical owner of my home having registered for that privilege! (My
kids are long out of the system; I was very involved in their schooling and
activities, and didn't begrudge the taxes paid.)

(The technical owner part is that rather than take a deed, I did a contract
for deed. So, the original owner is still "owner of record" despite our
beneficial ownership. Because it's more appropriate at this time, I'll be
getting the deed this year - but I'm some way from qualifying for the break,
let alone that we're cutting the cord and leaving!)

L8R

Skip

--
Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig
http://tinyurl.com/384p2

"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you
didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail
away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore.
Dream. Discover." - Mark Twain

On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 11:48:45 -0500, "Skip Gundlach" skipgundlach sez
use my name at earthlink dot fishcatcher (net) - with apologies for
the spamtrap wrote:

Interesting you should say that. In our county, for a few years out of the
last several, the fastest growing in the country (read: infrastructure
challenges), 65 and over get exempted from the school portion of the
property taxes.

Not in Connecticut. Or MA. Or RI. Or NY I believe.

As that comprises about 90% of the property tax burden, and they then also
get a homestead exemption, doubled for 65, seniors in our county get to kick
back for a few years until they snuff it. If I'd have known that, I'd have
the technical owner of my home having registered for that privilege! (My
kids are long out of the system; I was very involved in their schooling and
activities, and didn't begrudge the taxes paid.)

Where do you live because that sure as hell doesn't happen in this
state.

Later,

Tom

Keith Hughes wrote:
snip



No, it is lack of adequate parenting that causes the majority of the
problem, IMO. You apparently think the existence of the public school
system is a valid basis on which parents can abdicate responsibility for
child rearing.

Nobody said that!!! Indeed this thread is all about the parents wanting
to take responsibility?? You can read?? or did you get a union organised
education??

Home education *in addition to* that provided by the
public, or private, education system, has *always* been a prerequiste
for first rate education. West or East.

This is nonsense, you seem to want to take away from the fact western
education standards are dropping & blame parents, that's your right just
as most every parents these days blame unionised dead beat lefty
teachers, the difference is the parents are putting their money where
their mouth is & sending their kids to private "proper" schools instead
of lefty union indoctrination camps.

snip


Yes, and parent should get involved (as in PARTICIPATE, not spectate) in
their kids education!

So again you agree?? this planned boat trip is a good idea
educationally??? Apart from your mantra about not having access to any
govt funded programs because what?? it competes with the unions draining
the system dry??

Few parents I encounter even know the names of
their children's teachers. Schools, and school boards, respond to the
demands of the community (read 'parents'), and unfortunately, those
demands are too often for a baby-sitting service that passes children
from grade to grade irrespective of their level of attainment. Let me
ask you a couple of questions:

You are in fairyland!! The majority of union teachers are not
interested in anything nor anyone but themselves & how much they can
bludge from the system. Krause claims to have been a teacher, probably a
lie like everything else he claims, but can you imagine letting your
kids anywhere near him??? By all means teachers can hold views on all
sorts of things, other than the curriculum just don't teach them to
other peoples' kids.


1. Do you think teachers (or professors for that matter) *like* to
reward students for substandard performance?

Of course not, indeed they even help students cheat to avoid it, so
their institutions don't look bad, the parents don't ask how come?? &
the general public don't get wise to the lousy teaching job they're
doing!!! The jig is up, the public have figured it out & don't just take
my word for it; look at how many people are prepared to forgo life's
little luxuries so they can "pay extra" to have their children properly
educated, without the lefty union bias attached.

2. Do you think teachers (or professors for that matter) *like* to to
have students so disruptive that the learning environment for other
students is degraded, without having the disciplinary tools available to
address, or even ameliorate, the situation (small clue here...parents
don't *like* other people to discipline their unruly progeny)?

So first you blame the parents now it's the kids?? give it up it's the
unionised public teachers. But again have a look at the stats public
lefty union teachered schools are avoided like the plague by any parent
who can afford to save their children from them.


3. Do you think the responsibility for teaching respect, courtesy, and
discipline lies with the public school teacher (i.e. instead of with the
parents, as it has been since time immemorial)?

Again so you agree then that these people will do a better job of
educating their boys than your union teachers??? Great ... we agree.

As for the money thing well we can just disagree:-)


If you answered "yes" to any of those questions, I'll be happy to mail
you a quarter should you like to purchase a clue.

Purchase a clue!!!... ahhhh the true socialist:-) They demand
everything be given to "them" free, but have a different view about
themselves

you miss the point. Parents have the responsibility for
preparing their children *for* school, monitoring their performance *at*
school (P.T.A., parent-teacher conferences, etc.), and changing the
educational system when it isn't functioning properly.

Parents have a responsibility to protect their kids from lefty union
teachers who don't educate (have a look at the stats) but do try to
spread the lefty socialist mantra in the classroom.

We live in a
democracy in the US, and inherent in the democratic process is both
personal and social responsibility. Vote out the school board, the
system *will* change. Sit back and carp on newsgroups on the other hand,
and...oh, that's right, nothing happens. Get it?

Get it ?? Hmmmmm the socialist control freak, you're wrong & wrong
because you're an uneducated simpleton, pretty much it seems another
wasted life, we measure them in Krause lives:-). I hate to mention this
here, but do you think we may have our oxygen back???


Ever heard of greed? We (in the US) live in the short term. We
artifically elevate our standard of living (on the cheap labor of third
world countries, to a large extent) without thought to long term
consequences. That is a serious social/cultural issue we certainly need
to address.

You are another Krause type socialist, who's totally uneducated & has
no understanding of anything. World trade is the best thing going for
the US & the rest of the west & wait for it....... also the countries
you pretend to be worried about. You've never looked into it but don't
bother, for you don't have the wherewithal to understand.


Your postulate, however, that (and I'm paraphrasing of course) if our
children were better educated, *we* would be making the clothes, shoes,
toys, TV's, VCR's, DVD players, etc. that comprise the bulk of that
"95%", is ludicrous on its face. These are produced by unskilled, or
semi-skilled workers (as commonly defined), where the cost per unit
rules the day (almost entirely a function of living standard), NOT the
education level of the workforce.

It's the desire for those things from the west that makes the market,
but it's also the design inventive skills & much more importantly the
capital from the west that creates all those jobs, & those jobs are the
driver of a better world for all.

Now if the funds saved assembling cheap widgets & helping the 3rd world
at the same time, could have created a better education system in the
west then we would invent ever better things, which we would demand be
manufactured etc etc. The flies on the dung heap are the western unions,
particularly the teachers, who are living in the past & can't see past
the comfort of their union organised thug campaigns.


Sorry to snatch the easy bone from your jaws

It's easy to see which bone you hang onto.

, but no, I'm not a teacher
(never have been, not married to one). I was, however, lucky enough to
have been raised by parents and grandparents who believed in education,
and their rearing techniques reflected it. So I know adequate parenting
when I see it, even seeing so rarely.

You're not a teacher, you can't understand anything the socialist
mantra hasn't fed you, which end did they feed it???


And to those whining about a tax rebate for home schooling,

Nobody asked for a rebate!!! you brought up that you didn't want these
boat boys to have access to the system their parents have helped pay
for. Yes education is a social good but let parents decide how they
achieve it for their own kids, subject to mandated standards of academic
achievement. Hey lefty parents can support the lefty teachers?? oops no
no no:-) guess what?? it's the lefty parents leading the charge of
sending their kids to proper schools.

Damn the union teachers won't even allow us to test to confirm what we
all know, which is they're hopeless at what we pay them for; to teach.

how about
for those who have no children? Shall I get a rebate for the 30 years
I've been paying property taxes for schools I'm not using? Or the roads
*I* don't personally drive on, or the Fire Department *I've* never
personally used, or...get the point? Public education, as with all
social services, benefits *society as a whole* when done properly. We
all reap the benefits, we all pay the costs. We all have a
responsibility to get out and do something when it's not done properly.
Look at voter turnout and tell me how involved people are in society.

Well at least it's good to know Darwinism is at work as regards you.
Now how about that oxygen, any chance we may have it back???

K

Keith Hughes

K. Smith wrote:
snipped because for the 4th or 5th time he hasn't had a damn thing to
say about the OP's question

I'll be brief. Normally I don't respond to this type of polemic but
after having read your posts in this thread, and getting my giggling
under control, I've decided that your ignorance is so overwhelming as to
demand informing. I'm not confident that it will be more than a pearl
to you.

You sir are the poster boy for right-wing boneheads everywhere. There
is no discussing anything with people like you because a) your writing
makes you appear to be as dumb as a post and (this is the scary part) b)
you think *You're right* and everybody else who doesn't think like you
is not only wrong, but somehow a threat to your narrow little world
view. The anti-teacher, anti-union vitriol you're spewing in here
verges on the pathological. Were you found to be incompetent and fired
from a teaching job? The grapes seem _really_ sour.

In the meantime, pull your gaze away from your self-satisfied little
American navel and read a book or two -or better still- take your boat
somewhere foreign, keep your big mouth shut and just watch and learn.
You're in desperate need.