Before you dump on Butch, refresh your messages. IMO, 60% crap.
Regards,
noah

I'm not dumping on Butch. Wouldn't know him if I met him on the street, and if
I did I'd probably think he was all right. All I know about Butch is his
appearance in the NG.

Regarding the Newsgroup persona "Butch Ammon":

A couple of weeks ago it was "I'm outa here. At least until spring. You people
aren't talking about boats enough to suit me and fail to rise to my high
standards." OK, fine. To each his own.

So, a couple of weeks later, we see Butch reappearing to say, "Just wanted you
to know I'm lurking, and by the way the NG still sucks big time! All the good
people have left for other NG's. Oh, and by the way, the liberals here are all
real jerks. Merry Christmas."

So let's see:

"All the good people have left the newsgroup" (Therefore, what, only "bad"
people are left?)

"All the liberals are particularly full of crap."

Well, there we go. Damn glad that high and friggin mighty Butch Ammon, (one of
the "good people" who have left for better pastures), waded into the gutter to
let everybody in rec-boats know that they really suck...........because we
spend so much time telling each other we really suck. Wonderful for him to
lower himself for a moment to chastise rec.boats for too much political
content, and then throw in a jab about liberals. Seems like one heck of a
hypocritical position to me.

You think that irritated my one good nerve?
Nah. Try opening your one good eye. :-)

Whatever newsgroup ol' Butch has landed in, they apparently won't put up with
the crap he posted here...( a group flame and a specific jab at liberals)....he
ought to be darn glad ol rec.boats is around so he has somewhere to go and
sprinkle feces on people from time to time.

Personally, I have little patience for people who flame other people for
flaming, bitch about others being bitchy, launch long name-calling tirades
agaist people who call names, and folks who start 6-10 off topic threads a
month griping about off topic threads.

For better or worse, the group determines the content here. The same half dozen
people start 80 or 90 percent of the threads. Two liberals and a single
conservative probably start 75% of the OT
political threads. Those of us who participate once the ball is in motion are
just as guilty as the initiators. If NOYB, Harry, or jps got *zero* response
the political stuff would die down. Sadly, however, if you want almost zero
response in rec.boats just post something boating related. The only topics that
get any real play are "how do I tune up my outboard" sort of discussions.
That's OK- the group determines the content.

If you think my messages are only 60% crap, you're in serious trouble. They're
99% crap (according to at least a couple of fine folks expressing opinions
here) so be more discriminating. Like I said, the group determines the content.

noah wrote:

Butch apparently posted out of anger, or frustration. Throughout the season, he
has shared his boating pictures, and contributed many more on-topic posts than
he has "gripes". A "regular guy" who's primary interest here is "boating".
Twenty more like him would not be a bad thing. If it meant twenty or thirty
more "egg-nog" gripes per year, I can live with that...

About a year ago, Butch discovered he was a right-wing Republican and
he's been whining ever since. He used to be a fun guy here, but his
membership in the neoCon BORG collective took that away.

--
Email sent to is never read.

About a year ago, Butch discovered he was a right-wing Republican and
he's been whining ever since. He used to be a fun guy here, but his
membership in the neoCon BORG collective took that away.


I'm WHAT?!?!?!

Wait a minute, wait just a darn minute....

Birth year: 1961. I wasn't old enough to vote for Jimmy Carter yet, but here's
a breakdown of my voting history (if you REALLY must know):

Ronald Reagan 81-84
Ronald Reagan 85-88
George Bush 89-92
Bill Clinton 93-96
Bob Dole 96 {lost to Clinton}
George "W" Bush 2001-

See? I *can* vote Democrat if I want to. I saw something in Clinton the first
time around and voted for him. By the second term, I couldn't stand him and
Hillary and voted for Bob Dole.

Butch Ammon

noah wrote:
On Sun, 28 Dec 2003 20:03:30 -0500, Harry Krause wrote:


Did you go for a paddle?

For several hours. It was delightful.


Are you any good at sporting clays?

I'm a pretty fair shot with shotguns, and am solely responsible for
killing entire generations of skeet.




--
Email sent to is never read.

Butch Ammon wrote:

About a year ago, Butch discovered he was a right-wing Republican and
he's been whining ever since. He used to be a fun guy here, but his
membership in the neoCon BORG collective took that away.


I'm WHAT?!?!?!

Wait a minute, wait just a darn minute....

Birth year: 1961. I wasn't old enough to vote for Jimmy Carter yet, but here's
a breakdown of my voting history (if you REALLY must know):

Ronald Reagan 81-84
Ronald Reagan 85-88
George Bush 89-92
Bill Clinton 93-96
Bob Dole 96 {lost to Clinton}
George "W" Bush 2001-

See? I *can* vote Democrat if I want to. I saw something in Clinton the first
time around and voted for him. By the second term, I couldn't stand him and
Hillary and voted for Bob Dole.

Butch Ammon

I was wondering who voted for Dole.
I really like Dole, but not as POTUS. He spends a lot of his time these
days down in Bal Harbour.

--
Email sent to is never read.

1. Why is it that the "freedom of speech" claimed by the OT posters is
rarely
extended to those opposed to OT? I have seen thousands of OT posts that
never
raised an eyebrow, yet *one* post in opposition to OT is invariably attacked,
and usually denigrated.

Good question. The answer is most likely related to two factors. First, the
majority of people who log on just to gripe about OT posting *never* post on
topic. They don't participate, but would presume to dictate how the people who
do participate should go about it. Second, some of the folks who complain about
OT posts have a Joan of Arc complex and see it as their mission to
"save" rec.boats from OT posts, specific individual posters, or etc.

Yeah, freedom of speech extends to everybody. Even those with nothing
intelligent to say. You're free to express your opinion, and others are free to
say you're a such-and-such, no-good, blankety blank SOB for daring to think
that way. That's how it works. (Just imagine being a liberal in the current rw
political environment, you'll see what I mean) :-)





2. You posted above "Sadly, however, if you want almost zero
response in rec.boats just post something boating related." That is sad.

Perhaps it's an indication of the number of boaters who no longer frequent
here.
A number of posters, including myself, try to respond if we have something to
offer.

A number of OT posters never post about boats. Is that OK with you?

I would prefer that the NG have more boating content. It doesn't matter if its
"OK" with me......it isn't up to me, to you,
to Butch Ammon, or anybody else to dictate the tone of the NG. We can
"influence" it through participation, but we have no right to demand that the
very few people who see cut and pasting political newspaper articles as the
primary reason to visit rec.boats take their act somewhere else.

3, and last. The acceptance of OT posting just encourages more OT posters,
and
creates a larger "bog". If everyone on Usenet followed this "anything goes"
precept, we would be up to our necks in "dog grooming", "kinky pet lovers",
and
"philatilist phobias". Most people recognise that the group name indicates
the
content. You stated above that "the group determines the content.", yet I
have
never detected any concern from the OT posters for Usenet protocol or group
opinion. A handful of posters produce about 70-80% of the posts, all
Off-topic.
As in #1 above, dissenters are normally attacked, and many don't come back.
They didn't come here for an argument, they came here to read and post about
boats, were disappointed, and left.. Are you saying that "whosoever posts
legitimizes his post by posting"? I don't get it. I understand that my
opinion
is not popular here, but it is not intended to be popular. I do try to make
it
logical, respectful, and to engage others in discussion.

Regards,
noah

To email me, remove the "OT-" from OT-wrecked.boats.noah.
...as you were. )


I don't get around to hardly any other NG's beyond rec.boats. But, I am
beginning to suspect the problem is universal throughout the medium and not
just islolated in the rec.boats NG.

Example: I'm beginning the process of learning to play the bagpipe. What better
instrument for a guy who's a natural windbag, "drones" on incessantly, and
toots his own horn? (Actually, I have come to appeciate the oboe-like tone and
the heritage of the instrument).

I thought I'd check out the bagpipe newsgroup to see what I should be trying to
learn.......

That lasted about five minutes. The topics listed were about half left wing or
right wing political, a couple of general laments along the theme "Why has our
newsgroup gone to hell so?", Some Specific Person is a pedophile, We Should be
Ashamed of our role in Iraq, We Should be Proud of our role in Iraq, a half
dozen assorted flaming and name calling sessions, several posts attacking a
specific, prolific, poster who seems to have annoyed almost everybody, etc. If
you picked through all the crap, there were acutally two or three posts related
to playing the bagpipe. Not much different than here, and I'll bet there's
little or no crossover.

My bagpipe newsgroup experience must have been very similar to that of a boater
just passing through rec.boats. If I were just stumbling across rec.boats
today, I wouldn't stick around either.

There is no doubt the NG has gone downhill over the last few years. In my
opinion, it's the bitchy and childish nature of the OT posts, more than the
subject matter, that contribute to the deterioration.
Do you realize there are several posters in the NG who post an insult almost
every time they participate?

We disagree because we see the NG from our two unique perspectives. You, for
example, are a classroom teacher. It makes all the sense in the world to you to
post a sign outside the classroom door that says "Advanced Physics" and expect
everybody in class to restrict discussion to physics, or topics immediately
related to same.

Myself, I operate in a mad scramble where the fewer the rules the better I like
it. I promote a society where individuals accept responsibilty for their own
actions and in exchange are not highly regulated by others. (As Dylan said, "To
live outside the law, you must be honest").

Live and let live------even if we might not personally see value in the choices
made by others. It's not always important that we do.

Butch Ammon wrote:
About a year ago, Butch discovered he was a right-wing Republican and
he's been whining ever since. He used to be a fun guy here, but his
membership in the neoCon BORG collective took that away.



I'm WHAT?!?!?!

Wait a minute, wait just a darn minute....

Birth year: 1961. I wasn't old enough to vote for Jimmy Carter yet, but here's
a breakdown of my voting history (if you REALLY must know):

Ronald Reagan 81-84
Ronald Reagan 85-88
George Bush 89-92
Bill Clinton 93-96
Bob Dole 96 {lost to Clinton}
George "W" Bush 2001-

See? I *can* vote Democrat if I want to. I saw something in Clinton the first
time around and voted for him. By the second term, I couldn't stand him and
Hillary and voted for Bob Dole.

Butch Ammon

Hay Butch:

Don't let these fools get you down. If you disagree with one thing they
like... thats it... You are "a this" or "a that" (gee I wonder how
predjudice's get started) They have no idea who or what you are and
could never figure someone out unless they fit in there little bigited
catagories.

Look foward to the new year and another season on the water. I still
have my little 14ft fishing boat in service. But may put it away for the
rest of the season as I don't like to much of a chill when in the little
tin cup :-)

I was just at the marina where I keep the cuddy and it is sleeping well.
But starting to show a little fading on the gellcoat as it is out side
on the trailer.

Take care amigo, It's good to see you posting again.

Capt Jack R..

On 26 Dec 2003 21:18:19 GMT, 123 (Butch Ammon) wrote:

You know what??? It's people like you who bring this NG down to the lowest
level!!!

I don't think so. I wasnt' the one who came on and took a jab at
anyone of a liberal bent, and anyone who continues to read the group.
If you want to cast general insults, don't be hurt if someone takes
offense to your remarks.

I hope for next year, that you are a kinder person on this NG.

I hope, if you come back around, you don't start out by insulting
anyone who has continued to read the group, or anyone who doesn't
share your political leanings.

bb

On 26 Dec 2003 22:52:37 -0600, noah
wrote:


Dear "blackies at work",

I don't have clue what caused you to select your fudged email, but it is
interesting. Perhaps you could tell us the history and motivation.

The blackie thing goes way back, do you really care? When I'm at
home, I use the "at home" thing. When I'm at work, I use the "at
work" thing. I don't really see any great mystery to it, or that
anyone would really have an interest.

Butch Ammon is a decent guy, who likes boats.

Yeah, I've seen Butch's posts for some time. Although our boating
experiences appear to be very different, I have seen his occaisional
boating related posts.

That kinda' pre-qualifies him to
post to rec.boats.

But it doesn't pre-qualify him to make general disparging remarks
about anyone, or any qroup. Butch's post was certainly not much
different than what he complains about.

bb

On 29 Dec 2003 22:07:08 -0600, noah
wrote:


We disagree. Butch normally posts about his boat.

I'd have to say I've seen Butch post more ot and bitching about
liberals than I have seen him post about his boat in the driveway.
But yeah, I know about the old green tri-hull that used to be his
dad's.

Got a boat? I'd love to hear about it.

Sure, currently a 190 Seastrike. I've posted about it before, and
several other boats I've owned. If I see a boating topic I think I
can add something to, I'll do it.

If I see someone come in and make generalized derogitory comments
about groups I happen to belong to, I'll respond as I see fit. If my
taking offense to Butch's offensive comments offends you, my
apologies, please ignore my future posts.

bb