"Dave Hall" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 21:29:34 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:


What? No fountain pens at age 13?

I made a typo. It was 13. To complete the story, I steadfastly refused to
focus on bar mitzvah preparation. A week beforehand, the rabbi said
"Look.
This is out of your control. Your parents want this, and they've already
paid for the party and the restaurant". So, in a week, I did the whole
thing. The party was actually pretty good. My friend Gary began flicking
lobster eyeballs at the girls. The whole thing turned into a circus.

That's mature.


I think my parents' mistake was that after Sunday school, they always
took
my sister and I antique shopping. That's ridiculous. If you want to get a
kid to do something they don't like, you don't reward them with something
worse, especially on the weekend. My ex-wife has figured this out. She
gets
my son to attend the Unitarian church because afterwards, she offers to
stick around downtown for a hour so he can take advantage of a park that
has
lots of cement structures that are as attractive to skateboarders as a
shipwreck is to a fisherman looking for bottom structure. :-)

And you wonder why your father "rides" you so hard.......


Dave


Dave, you'd better clarify (if you're able to) the connection here.

"Dave Hall" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 11:44:43 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:


"JohnH" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 20:47:16 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:


"JohnH" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 13:22:32 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:


"Dave Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 18:44:54 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:


And your son was in his late 20's?

If he was an adolescent, and he wasn't interested in the
boobs,
then
he was either too embarrassed to let you know, or he's just
not
very
interested in females (IMHO).

He wasn't raised by a television like so many other kids.

AH! Now you know the point of this whole issue.

He prefers reality.

And that's good for you as a parent, and him as a person who will
likely become a responsible adult. Some people mature early on,
and
can handle the reality of the adult world, and make decisions
based
on
the big picture. Many other kids, though, are empty of guiding
principles, and will lock on to whatever is handy, and too often
that
is the TV. You say that the chaperoning the TV is the parent's
job.
But the parents are often not responsible themselves, or cannot
be
there at every point, or when they are at their friend's homes.

Isn't this interesting? I have a kid with "guiding principles", and
it
somehow happened without religion. Remarkable.


Could it be that your son received his "guiding principles" from
parents who had received "guiding principles" from their parents?

Or has your entire life been devoid of anything religious?

Pretty much. My parents waited till I was 7 or 8 to start attending
synagogue. You can't wait that long to start brainwashing kids. You
have
to
start when they're small so they have no choice. Otherwise, they have
to
find it themselves later in life if they choose to do so. So, by the
time
they got me there, I was skilled at shutting it off. They gave up by
the
time I was 12.


So your parents passed on pretty much nothing in the way of "guiding
principles" to you? I said nothing about 'brainwashing' in the
synagogue.

I'll answer that with a question: Is religion the only way to learn how
to
live a good life?


No. But it is structured in such a way as to provide strong and
convincing incentives to do so.

Dave


That's only necessary for people who are unable to provide those things
without help. Obviously, I have been able to do that, and my son's excellent
qualities are proof of that fact.

"Dave Hall" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 20:47:16 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:


"JohnH" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 13:22:32 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:


"Dave Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 18:44:54 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:


And your son was in his late 20's?

If he was an adolescent, and he wasn't interested in the boobs,
then
he was either too embarrassed to let you know, or he's just not
very
interested in females (IMHO).

He wasn't raised by a television like so many other kids.

AH! Now you know the point of this whole issue.

He prefers reality.

And that's good for you as a parent, and him as a person who will
likely become a responsible adult. Some people mature early on, and
can handle the reality of the adult world, and make decisions based
on
the big picture. Many other kids, though, are empty of guiding
principles, and will lock on to whatever is handy, and too often
that
is the TV. You say that the chaperoning the TV is the parent's job.
But the parents are often not responsible themselves, or cannot be
there at every point, or when they are at their friend's homes.

Isn't this interesting? I have a kid with "guiding principles", and it
somehow happened without religion. Remarkable.


Could it be that your son received his "guiding principles" from
parents who had received "guiding principles" from their parents?

Or has your entire life been devoid of anything religious?

Pretty much. My parents waited till I was 7 or 8 to start attending
synagogue. You can't wait that long to start brainwashing kids. You have
to
start when they're small so they have no choice. Otherwise, they have to
find it themselves later in life if they choose to do so. So, by the time
they got me there, I was skilled at shutting it off. They gave up by the
time I was 12.

The first time I was in a church (since I was baptized) was when I was
invited to attend a wedding sometime in my late teens.

The first time I attended a bona-fide "service" was Christmas Eve when
I was 19, and my then girlfriend though it would be "nice" to go to
church.

Dave

Girlfriend. In that case, your motives were obvious.

"Dave Hall" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 13:23:49 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:


"Dave Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 17:51:56 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:

Wanna hear something interesting? I can't assume my son's behavior (or
wisdom) is indicative of other kids, but I'll bet he's not that
unusual.

A couple of years back, I had the flu. My excellent friend Mike
stopped
by
and handed me boxed sets of the first 3 years' of the Sopranos series.
Then,
he ran away so he wouldn't get sick. A week later, I thanked him and
said
I'd return them, but he said to pass them on to someone else who's
nailed
to
the couch with a fever. So, they're still here.

Recently, I decided my son was old enough to follow the series, so
every
so
often, we pop in a tape. If you've watched the show, you know there's
an
occasional scene in the strip club, and actual, real genuine boobs are
shown. So, the first time, my son was somewhat riveted. The second
time,
we
were talking about fishing and he didn't skip a beat. At that point,
I'm
sure he knew that any time we saw the front of the club, it was likely
we'd
see tits. The third time, just as the girls were shown dancing, he got
up
and says "I'm gettin' an apple. Ya want one?", and spent a minute
washing
them. Didn't rush back in to make sure he wouldn't miss the tits.

After that episode, I said "If your mom finds out I let you watch
this,
I'm
in deep ****". He said "Watch what?" I said "This show". He said "What
show?" Then, he paused a moment and said "Besides, I don't know what
the
big
deal is. The nudity's not the point of the show. It's just where those
guys
hang out." Later: "Tony's mother's really the center of the show so
far.
Reminds me of grandma!*"

Kids should run the world.

Your kid is probably an exception. In my experience, many kids become
like Bevis and Butthead, when it comes to nudity.......

Kids always want what you tell them they cannot have. This is why bad
parents and religion turn out so many twisted kids.


That's why the trick is to not let them know about it, so they don't
"want it". What they don't know about, they won't crave. At least
until they're old enough to be responsible.


Dave


In this case: Not let them "have" nudity????? Dave, a real man can look at a
woman wearing baggy pants, winter boots, 2 sweaters and a down parka and
know if she's good looking underneath all of it. Nudity is unnecessary to
being interesting. And, what about the beach? Only an idiot can't look at a
woman wearing even the most conservative swimsuit and figure out plenty.

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Dave Hall wrote:
On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 13:23:49 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:


"Dave Hall" wrote in message
. ..
On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 17:51:56 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:

Wanna hear something interesting? I can't assume my son's behavior
(or
wisdom) is indicative of other kids, but I'll bet he's not that
unusual.

A couple of years back, I had the flu. My excellent friend Mike
stopped
by
and handed me boxed sets of the first 3 years' of the Sopranos
series.
Then,
he ran away so he wouldn't get sick. A week later, I thanked him and
said
I'd return them, but he said to pass them on to someone else who's
nailed
to
the couch with a fever. So, they're still here.

Recently, I decided my son was old enough to follow the series, so
every
so
often, we pop in a tape. If you've watched the show, you know there's
an
occasional scene in the strip club, and actual, real genuine boobs
are
shown. So, the first time, my son was somewhat riveted. The second
time,
we
were talking about fishing and he didn't skip a beat. At that point,
I'm
sure he knew that any time we saw the front of the club, it was
likely
we'd
see tits. The third time, just as the girls were shown dancing, he
got up
and says "I'm gettin' an apple. Ya want one?", and spent a minute
washing
them. Didn't rush back in to make sure he wouldn't miss the tits.

After that episode, I said "If your mom finds out I let you watch
this,
I'm
in deep ****". He said "Watch what?" I said "This show". He said
"What
show?" Then, he paused a moment and said "Besides, I don't know what
the
big
deal is. The nudity's not the point of the show. It's just where
those
guys
hang out." Later: "Tony's mother's really the center of the show so
far.
Reminds me of grandma!*"

Kids should run the world.

Your kid is probably an exception. In my experience, many kids become
like Bevis and Butthead, when it comes to nudity.......

Kids always want what you tell them they cannot have. This is why bad
parents and religion turn out so many twisted kids.


That's why the trick is to not let them know about it, so they don't
"want it". What they don't know about, they won't crave. At least
until they're old enough to be responsible.


Dave


Hehehe. I love it. Boy, are you in for a surprise, fella.

I wonder if Mrs Hall breast fed the babies, and if so, did she do it through
a 3" hole cut in the clothing, and blindfold the babies, just in case.

On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 11:44:43 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:


"JohnH" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 20:47:16 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:


"JohnH" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 13:22:32 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:


"Dave Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 18:44:54 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:


And your son was in his late 20's?

If he was an adolescent, and he wasn't interested in the boobs,
then
he was either too embarrassed to let you know, or he's just not
very
interested in females (IMHO).

He wasn't raised by a television like so many other kids.

AH! Now you know the point of this whole issue.

He prefers reality.

And that's good for you as a parent, and him as a person who will
likely become a responsible adult. Some people mature early on, and
can handle the reality of the adult world, and make decisions based
on
the big picture. Many other kids, though, are empty of guiding
principles, and will lock on to whatever is handy, and too often
that
is the TV. You say that the chaperoning the TV is the parent's job.
But the parents are often not responsible themselves, or cannot be
there at every point, or when they are at their friend's homes.

Isn't this interesting? I have a kid with "guiding principles", and it
somehow happened without religion. Remarkable.


Could it be that your son received his "guiding principles" from
parents who had received "guiding principles" from their parents?

Or has your entire life been devoid of anything religious?

Pretty much. My parents waited till I was 7 or 8 to start attending
synagogue. You can't wait that long to start brainwashing kids. You have
to
start when they're small so they have no choice. Otherwise, they have to
find it themselves later in life if they choose to do so. So, by the time
they got me there, I was skilled at shutting it off. They gave up by the
time I was 12.


So your parents passed on pretty much nothing in the way of "guiding
principles" to you? I said nothing about 'brainwashing' in the
synagogue.

I'll answer that with a question: Is religion the only way to learn how to
live a good life?

That's not an answer, that's a subject change to avoid an answer.

John H

On the 'PocoLoco' out of Deale, MD,
on the beautiful Chesapeake Bay!

On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 11:44:02 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:


"JohnH" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 21:29:34 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:


"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Doug Kanter wrote:
"JohnH" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 13:22:32 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:


"Dave Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 18:44:54 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:


And your son was in his late 20's?

If he was an adolescent, and he wasn't interested in the
boobs,
then
he was either too embarrassed to let you know, or he's just
not
very
interested in females (IMHO).

He wasn't raised by a television like so many other kids.

AH! Now you know the point of this whole issue.

He prefers reality.

And that's good for you as a parent, and him as a person who will
likely become a responsible adult. Some people mature early on,
and
can handle the reality of the adult world, and make decisions
based
on
the big picture. Many other kids, though, are empty of guiding
principles, and will lock on to whatever is handy, and too often
that
is the TV. You say that the chaperoning the TV is the parent's
job.
But the parents are often not responsible themselves, or cannot
be
there at every point, or when they are at their friend's homes.

Isn't this interesting? I have a kid with "guiding principles", and
it
somehow happened without religion. Remarkable.


Could it be that your son received his "guiding principles" from
parents who had received "guiding principles" from their parents?

Or has your entire life been devoid of anything religious?

Pretty much. My parents waited till I was 7 or 8 to start attending
synagogue. You can't wait that long to start brainwashing kids. You
have
to
start when they're small so they have no choice. Otherwise, they have
to
find it themselves later in life if they choose to do so. So, by the
time
they got me there, I was skilled at shutting it off. They gave up by
the
time I was 12.




What? No fountain pens at age 13?

I made a typo. It was 13. To complete the story, I steadfastly refused to
focus on bar mitzvah preparation. A week beforehand, the rabbi said
"Look.
This is out of your control. Your parents want this, and they've already
paid for the party and the restaurant". So, in a week, I did the whole
thing. The party was actually pretty good. My friend Gary began flicking
lobster eyeballs at the girls. The whole thing turned into a circus.

I think my parents' mistake was that after Sunday school, they always
took
my sister and I antique shopping. That's ridiculous. If you want to get a
kid to do something they don't like, you don't reward them with something
worse, especially on the weekend. My ex-wife has figured this out. She
gets
my son to attend the Unitarian church because afterwards, she offers to
stick around downtown for a hour so he can take advantage of a park that
has
lots of cement structures that are as attractive to skateboarders as a
shipwreck is to a fisherman looking for bottom structure. :-)


Is all this to imply that your parents had no part in the
determination of your guiding principles, and therefore the guiding
principles you pass to your son?

John, you really have comprehension issues. That doesn't make you a bad
person. I'm just sayin'.....

It implies that religion played no part in my beliefs. The first time I saw
"fear" and "god" on the same page, I shut it all down. Anyone who falls for
that is a fool.


So somehow, your parents managed to raise you and totally withhold any
effects of their religion on your "guiding principles." Somehow, I
think you are being false to your parents.

John H

On the 'PocoLoco' out of Deale, MD,
on the beautiful Chesapeake Bay!

"JohnH" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 11:44:02 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:


"JohnH" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 21:29:34 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:


"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Doug Kanter wrote:
"JohnH" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 13:22:32 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:


"Dave Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 18:44:54 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:


And your son was in his late 20's?

If he was an adolescent, and he wasn't interested in the
boobs,
then
he was either too embarrassed to let you know, or he's just
not
very
interested in females (IMHO).

He wasn't raised by a television like so many other kids.

AH! Now you know the point of this whole issue.

He prefers reality.

And that's good for you as a parent, and him as a person who
will
likely become a responsible adult. Some people mature early
on,
and
can handle the reality of the adult world, and make decisions
based
on
the big picture. Many other kids, though, are empty of guiding
principles, and will lock on to whatever is handy, and too
often
that
is the TV. You say that the chaperoning the TV is the parent's
job.
But the parents are often not responsible themselves, or
cannot
be
there at every point, or when they are at their friend's
homes.

Isn't this interesting? I have a kid with "guiding principles",
and
it
somehow happened without religion. Remarkable.


Could it be that your son received his "guiding principles" from
parents who had received "guiding principles" from their parents?

Or has your entire life been devoid of anything religious?

Pretty much. My parents waited till I was 7 or 8 to start
attending
synagogue. You can't wait that long to start brainwashing kids.
You
have
to
start when they're small so they have no choice. Otherwise, they
have
to
find it themselves later in life if they choose to do so. So, by
the
time
they got me there, I was skilled at shutting it off. They gave up
by
the
time I was 12.




What? No fountain pens at age 13?

I made a typo. It was 13. To complete the story, I steadfastly refused
to
focus on bar mitzvah preparation. A week beforehand, the rabbi said
"Look.
This is out of your control. Your parents want this, and they've
already
paid for the party and the restaurant". So, in a week, I did the whole
thing. The party was actually pretty good. My friend Gary began
flicking
lobster eyeballs at the girls. The whole thing turned into a circus.

I think my parents' mistake was that after Sunday school, they always
took
my sister and I antique shopping. That's ridiculous. If you want to
get a
kid to do something they don't like, you don't reward them with
something
worse, especially on the weekend. My ex-wife has figured this out. She
gets
my son to attend the Unitarian church because afterwards, she offers
to
stick around downtown for a hour so he can take advantage of a park
that
has
lots of cement structures that are as attractive to skateboarders as a
shipwreck is to a fisherman looking for bottom structure. :-)


Is all this to imply that your parents had no part in the
determination of your guiding principles, and therefore the guiding
principles you pass to your son?

John, you really have comprehension issues. That doesn't make you a bad
person. I'm just sayin'.....

It implies that religion played no part in my beliefs. The first time I
saw
"fear" and "god" on the same page, I shut it all down. Anyone who falls
for
that is a fool.


So somehow, your parents managed to raise you and totally withhold any
effects of their religion on your "guiding principles." Somehow, I
think you are being false to your parents.

I have no idea what motivated THEM. My mother said she hardly ever attended
while growing up. My father's family attended with some regularity. Matter
of fact, his brother was a rabbi. But, there was at least a 10 year span
after he left the service when he and my mother were in no way involved. I'm
convinced their return to the synagogue was a reaction to our moving from
Queens to a neighborhood and school district almost totally devoid of Jewish
families.

You can theorize all you want about how I got this way, but the fact remains
that there are families comprised of multiple generations of atheists who've
lived perfectly good lives and raised perfectly fine children. You do NOT
need religion (a central brain) to figure out how to live in harmony with
other people.

"JohnH" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 11:44:43 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:


"JohnH" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 20:47:16 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:


"JohnH" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 13:22:32 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:


"Dave Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 18:44:54 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:


And your son was in his late 20's?

If he was an adolescent, and he wasn't interested in the
boobs,
then
he was either too embarrassed to let you know, or he's just
not
very
interested in females (IMHO).

He wasn't raised by a television like so many other kids.

AH! Now you know the point of this whole issue.

He prefers reality.

And that's good for you as a parent, and him as a person who will
likely become a responsible adult. Some people mature early on,
and
can handle the reality of the adult world, and make decisions
based
on
the big picture. Many other kids, though, are empty of guiding
principles, and will lock on to whatever is handy, and too often
that
is the TV. You say that the chaperoning the TV is the parent's
job.
But the parents are often not responsible themselves, or cannot
be
there at every point, or when they are at their friend's homes.

Isn't this interesting? I have a kid with "guiding principles", and
it
somehow happened without religion. Remarkable.


Could it be that your son received his "guiding principles" from
parents who had received "guiding principles" from their parents?

Or has your entire life been devoid of anything religious?

Pretty much. My parents waited till I was 7 or 8 to start attending
synagogue. You can't wait that long to start brainwashing kids. You
have
to
start when they're small so they have no choice. Otherwise, they have
to
find it themselves later in life if they choose to do so. So, by the
time
they got me there, I was skilled at shutting it off. They gave up by
the
time I was 12.


So your parents passed on pretty much nothing in the way of "guiding
principles" to you? I said nothing about 'brainwashing' in the
synagogue.

I'll answer that with a question: Is religion the only way to learn how
to
live a good life?

That's not an answer, that's a subject change to avoid an answer.

John H

It most certainly is not. You're working on the assumption that living a
certain way requires a kick in the ass from religion or some other outside
source. I'm leading your around by the nose until you 'fess up and admit how
silly that is. You don't like being led around by the nose, but I'm not done
yet.

On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 21:55:07 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:


"JohnH" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 11:44:43 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:


"JohnH" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 20:47:16 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:


"JohnH" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 13:22:32 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:


"Dave Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 18:44:54 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:


And your son was in his late 20's?

If he was an adolescent, and he wasn't interested in the
boobs,
then
he was either too embarrassed to let you know, or he's just
not
very
interested in females (IMHO).

He wasn't raised by a television like so many other kids.

AH! Now you know the point of this whole issue.

He prefers reality.

And that's good for you as a parent, and him as a person who will
likely become a responsible adult. Some people mature early on,
and
can handle the reality of the adult world, and make decisions
based
on
the big picture. Many other kids, though, are empty of guiding
principles, and will lock on to whatever is handy, and too often
that
is the TV. You say that the chaperoning the TV is the parent's
job.
But the parents are often not responsible themselves, or cannot
be
there at every point, or when they are at their friend's homes.

Isn't this interesting? I have a kid with "guiding principles", and
it
somehow happened without religion. Remarkable.


Could it be that your son received his "guiding principles" from
parents who had received "guiding principles" from their parents?

Or has your entire life been devoid of anything religious?

Pretty much. My parents waited till I was 7 or 8 to start attending
synagogue. You can't wait that long to start brainwashing kids. You
have
to
start when they're small so they have no choice. Otherwise, they have
to
find it themselves later in life if they choose to do so. So, by the
time
they got me there, I was skilled at shutting it off. They gave up by
the
time I was 12.


So your parents passed on pretty much nothing in the way of "guiding
principles" to you? I said nothing about 'brainwashing' in the
synagogue.

I'll answer that with a question: Is religion the only way to learn how
to
live a good life?

That's not an answer, that's a subject change to avoid an answer.

John H

It most certainly is not. You're working on the assumption that living a
certain way requires a kick in the ass from religion or some other outside
source. I'm leading your around by the nose until you 'fess up and admit how
silly that is. You don't like being led around by the nose, but I'm not done
yet.


I'm neither working on, nor have made, any assumptions. I've also not
said anything about a requirement for religion. You stated that you
have a kid with "guiding principles" that happened without religion.
You won't admit that you received any guiding principles from your
parents, who were religious. (You stated your father was Jewish, and
was 'ostracized' for it.)

You're too shallow to admit that religion *did* play a part in your
guiding principle, the ones you've passed on to your son.

End of discussion.
John H

On the 'PocoLoco' out of Deale, MD,
on the beautiful Chesapeake Bay!