"Dave Hall" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 07:49:35 -0500, Harry Krause
wrote:

Dave Hall wrote:
On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 20:02:21 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:


Who has criticized the networks? Besides jps, that is. You mean to
say
that a decent movie about war can be made *without* foul language?

Save those facetious questions for someone else, John. Movies without
that
language were made at a point in history when the country was still
living a
fairy tale existence. But, they can still be historically accurate in
their
own way.


So you feel that when we lived in a time of greater respect, and
consideration for other people, and had better manners, that was
living a "fairy tale" existence?

You obviously are not well-read. The language to which you are objecting
has always been in use.

In use in places which were not considered "public". Hence the term
"locker room talk". It was considered extremely rude and impolite to
use such expletives in the presence of a lady (Of course, nowadays's,
females can trash talk with the worst of the gutter set)

All that really has happened is that much of
what is called "censorship" has been eliminated. In days of old, "cuss
words" were kept out of movies because of the censors, not because such
words were not being used in ordinary discourse.

If by "censors" you mean people who applied good manners, then I guess
you're right. If having respect and good manners is no longer
important, than I guess I can understand your desire to be able to
"let it all hang out" in public for all the world to see.....

This only underscores my point that class, respect, and desire for
civil discourse has eroded in this country.

Dave




Don't forget the censors who arranged for Dick Van Dyke and Mary Tyler Moore
to sleep in separate beds on TV. Same censors who prevented us from hearing
the word "pregnant" during the first 15 years or so of television's
existence.

On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 13:23:49 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:


"Dave Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 17:51:56 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:

Wanna hear something interesting? I can't assume my son's behavior (or
wisdom) is indicative of other kids, but I'll bet he's not that unusual.

A couple of years back, I had the flu. My excellent friend Mike stopped
by
and handed me boxed sets of the first 3 years' of the Sopranos series.
Then,
he ran away so he wouldn't get sick. A week later, I thanked him and said
I'd return them, but he said to pass them on to someone else who's nailed
to
the couch with a fever. So, they're still here.

Recently, I decided my son was old enough to follow the series, so every
so
often, we pop in a tape. If you've watched the show, you know there's an
occasional scene in the strip club, and actual, real genuine boobs are
shown. So, the first time, my son was somewhat riveted. The second time,
we
were talking about fishing and he didn't skip a beat. At that point, I'm
sure he knew that any time we saw the front of the club, it was likely
we'd
see tits. The third time, just as the girls were shown dancing, he got up
and says "I'm gettin' an apple. Ya want one?", and spent a minute washing
them. Didn't rush back in to make sure he wouldn't miss the tits.

After that episode, I said "If your mom finds out I let you watch this,
I'm
in deep ****". He said "Watch what?" I said "This show". He said "What
show?" Then, he paused a moment and said "Besides, I don't know what the
big
deal is. The nudity's not the point of the show. It's just where those
guys
hang out." Later: "Tony's mother's really the center of the show so far.
Reminds me of grandma!*"

Kids should run the world.

Your kid is probably an exception. In my experience, many kids become
like Bevis and Butthead, when it comes to nudity.......

Kids always want what you tell them they cannot have. This is why bad
parents and religion turn out so many twisted kids.


That's why the trick is to not let them know about it, so they don't
"want it". What they don't know about, they won't crave. At least
until they're old enough to be responsible.


Dave

"Dave Hall" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 15:21:35 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:


"Dave Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 20:02:21 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:


Who has criticized the networks? Besides jps, that is. You mean to
say
that a decent movie about war can be made *without* foul language?

Save those facetious questions for someone else, John. Movies without
that
language were made at a point in history when the country was still
living a
fairy tale existence. But, they can still be historically accurate in
their
own way.


So you feel that when we lived in a time of greater respect, and
consideration for other people, and had better manners, that was
living a "fairy tale" existence?

There is no need to be crude, rude, and abusive. If you can't get your
point across without having to resort to the lowest common
denominator, then I would suggest that you are what you watch.

Dave

It's not nothing to do with "greater respect". In the 1950s and earlier,
most war movies presented a squeaky clean image of what war and the armed
forces were like. Even the most brutal of them are not as explicit as
newer
ones like "Deer Hunter" or "Full Metal Jacket".

The point of those movies back then was not to be 100% factually
accurate in every minute detail. Those movies were not documentaries,
they were made to provide entertainment and to instill a positive
attitude with respect to our military.

Hollywood was an ESCAPE from reality. One need only watch the Wizard
of Oz to remember this.

That we seem to feel today, that we have to use the "shock values" of
blood, guts, gore, and racy language to make a point, says something
about the state of our population.

That Hollywood has become more and more political in their productions
(And decidedly left leaning) is also of concern. No one need look any
further than Michael Moore's propaganda films to see it. By using
"shock" tactics, it's easy to sway popular opinion against certain
operations or political ideals by showcasing it in a graphic,
negative setting.


My dad flew a TBF Avenger (torpedo bomber) in the pacific. After a
successful mission and returning to his carrier, he'd get a handshake
from
his CO. Afterward, he had to deal with a half dozen guys who thought it
was
a kick to beat up the Jew-boys. He'd been a pretty decent boxer in high
school. His CO suggested that he might not notice if some of the half
dozen
ended up too black & blue to walk straight for a few days. That's how the
problem got straightened out.

That's how everyone solved their problems back then. As a kid growing
up, if you were not the most popular and became the object of bullies,
you either learned to be tolerant of pain, or you fought back and
gained their respect.

You don't see details like that in old movies. You *do* see it in movies
about Vietnam - major friction within groups who are supposed to be on
the
same side.

And why do you suppose that is? I'll give you a hint, it has much to
do with liberals and the anti-war element, who are attempting to sway
public opinion through the guise of "entertainment".

Dave

OK....you'd better clarify that last paragraph, Dave. Are you intimately
acquainted with Francis Ford Coppola and his political leanings?

On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 20:47:16 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:


"JohnH" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 13:22:32 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:


"Dave Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 18:44:54 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:


And your son was in his late 20's?

If he was an adolescent, and he wasn't interested in the boobs, then
he was either too embarrassed to let you know, or he's just not very
interested in females (IMHO).

He wasn't raised by a television like so many other kids.

AH! Now you know the point of this whole issue.

He prefers reality.

And that's good for you as a parent, and him as a person who will
likely become a responsible adult. Some people mature early on, and
can handle the reality of the adult world, and make decisions based on
the big picture. Many other kids, though, are empty of guiding
principles, and will lock on to whatever is handy, and too often that
is the TV. You say that the chaperoning the TV is the parent's job.
But the parents are often not responsible themselves, or cannot be
there at every point, or when they are at their friend's homes.

Isn't this interesting? I have a kid with "guiding principles", and it
somehow happened without religion. Remarkable.


Could it be that your son received his "guiding principles" from
parents who had received "guiding principles" from their parents?

Or has your entire life been devoid of anything religious?

Pretty much. My parents waited till I was 7 or 8 to start attending
synagogue. You can't wait that long to start brainwashing kids. You have to
start when they're small so they have no choice. Otherwise, they have to
find it themselves later in life if they choose to do so. So, by the time
they got me there, I was skilled at shutting it off. They gave up by the
time I was 12.

The first time I was in a church (since I was baptized) was when I was
invited to attend a wedding sometime in my late teens.

The first time I attended a bona-fide "service" was Christmas Eve when
I was 19, and my then girlfriend though it would be "nice" to go to
church.

Dave

On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 21:29:34 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:


What? No fountain pens at age 13?

I made a typo. It was 13. To complete the story, I steadfastly refused to
focus on bar mitzvah preparation. A week beforehand, the rabbi said "Look.
This is out of your control. Your parents want this, and they've already
paid for the party and the restaurant". So, in a week, I did the whole
thing. The party was actually pretty good. My friend Gary began flicking
lobster eyeballs at the girls. The whole thing turned into a circus.

That's mature.


I think my parents' mistake was that after Sunday school, they always took
my sister and I antique shopping. That's ridiculous. If you want to get a
kid to do something they don't like, you don't reward them with something
worse, especially on the weekend. My ex-wife has figured this out. She gets
my son to attend the Unitarian church because afterwards, she offers to
stick around downtown for a hour so he can take advantage of a park that has
lots of cement structures that are as attractive to skateboarders as a
shipwreck is to a fisherman looking for bottom structure. :-)

And you wonder why your father "rides" you so hard.......


Dave

On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 23:44:12 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:


Hey...at least the ex is taking the kid to a Unitarian church...he isn't
going to pick up any of the fundie idiocy there.

Oh no. That's one of her better qualities. One thing I'd love to see: George
(aka "peckerhead) Bush in a locked room with my ex, her giving him The Look.
He'd die within seconds.

Is that what happened to you?


Dave

On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 19:12:30 -0500, JohnH
wrote:

On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 23:16:22 GMT, "Don White"
wrote:


"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...


I made a typo. It was 13. To complete the story, I steadfastly refused to
focus on bar mitzvah preparation. A week beforehand, the rabbi said "Look.
This is out of your control. Your parents want this, and they've already
paid for the party and the restaurant". So, in a week, I did the whole
thing. The party was actually pretty good. My friend Gary began flicking
lobster eyeballs at the girls. The whole thing turned into a circus.

I think my parents' mistake was that after Sunday school, they always took
my sister and I antique shopping. That's ridiculous. If you want to get a
kid to do something they don't like, you don't reward them with something
worse, especially on the weekend. My ex-wife has figured this out. She
gets
my son to attend the Unitarian church because afterwards, she offers to
stick around downtown for a hour so he can take advantage of a park that
has
lots of cement structures that are as attractive to skateboarders as a
shipwreck is to a fisherman looking for bottom structure. :-)


Gotta be careful what you do in front of the kids. When mine were very
young (5 and 3), I would take them to Sunday Mass
and sit near the back so we could slip out early just after communion. I was
always in a rush to get to the boat club and our Siren 17 sailboat. To this
day, my older son (now 25) will throw that up at me if I bring up church.


Now *that* is shameful! Not to say I didn't do it several times
myself. Of course, very often there was a nun who just 'happened' to
be standing back there to make sure folks didn't 'accidentally' just
keep walking after communion.

Ah, those were the days!

John H

On the 'PocoLoco' out of Deale, MD,
on the beautiful Chesapeake Bay!

On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 23:16:22 GMT, "Don White"
wrote:


"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...


I made a typo. It was 13. To complete the story, I steadfastly refused to
focus on bar mitzvah preparation. A week beforehand, the rabbi said "Look.
This is out of your control. Your parents want this, and they've already
paid for the party and the restaurant". So, in a week, I did the whole
thing. The party was actually pretty good. My friend Gary began flicking
lobster eyeballs at the girls. The whole thing turned into a circus.

I think my parents' mistake was that after Sunday school, they always took
my sister and I antique shopping. That's ridiculous. If you want to get a
kid to do something they don't like, you don't reward them with something
worse, especially on the weekend. My ex-wife has figured this out. She
gets
my son to attend the Unitarian church because afterwards, she offers to
stick around downtown for a hour so he can take advantage of a park that
has
lots of cement structures that are as attractive to skateboarders as a
shipwreck is to a fisherman looking for bottom structure. :-)


Gotta be careful what you do in front of the kids. When mine were very
young (5 and 3), I would take them to Sunday Mass
and sit near the back so we could slip out early just after communion. I was
always in a rush to get to the boat club and our Siren 17 sailboat. To this
day, my older son (now 25) will throw that up at me if I bring up church.


One of the reason why my parents never went to church was that for the
entire summer season, practically every weekend, he'd want to spend it
down at our boat in Atlantic City. Hmmm... Boating vs. Church.....
tough choice....

Dave

On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 11:44:43 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:


"JohnH" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 20:47:16 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:


"JohnH" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 13:22:32 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:


"Dave Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 18:44:54 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:


And your son was in his late 20's?

If he was an adolescent, and he wasn't interested in the boobs,
then
he was either too embarrassed to let you know, or he's just not
very
interested in females (IMHO).

He wasn't raised by a television like so many other kids.

AH! Now you know the point of this whole issue.

He prefers reality.

And that's good for you as a parent, and him as a person who will
likely become a responsible adult. Some people mature early on, and
can handle the reality of the adult world, and make decisions based
on
the big picture. Many other kids, though, are empty of guiding
principles, and will lock on to whatever is handy, and too often
that
is the TV. You say that the chaperoning the TV is the parent's job.
But the parents are often not responsible themselves, or cannot be
there at every point, or when they are at their friend's homes.

Isn't this interesting? I have a kid with "guiding principles", and it
somehow happened without religion. Remarkable.


Could it be that your son received his "guiding principles" from
parents who had received "guiding principles" from their parents?

Or has your entire life been devoid of anything religious?

Pretty much. My parents waited till I was 7 or 8 to start attending
synagogue. You can't wait that long to start brainwashing kids. You have
to
start when they're small so they have no choice. Otherwise, they have to
find it themselves later in life if they choose to do so. So, by the time
they got me there, I was skilled at shutting it off. They gave up by the
time I was 12.


So your parents passed on pretty much nothing in the way of "guiding
principles" to you? I said nothing about 'brainwashing' in the
synagogue.

I'll answer that with a question: Is religion the only way to learn how to
live a good life?


No. But it is structured in such a way as to provide strong and
convincing incentives to do so.

Dave

"Dave Hall" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 23:44:12 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:


Hey...at least the ex is taking the kid to a Unitarian church...he
isn't
going to pick up any of the fundie idiocy there.

Oh no. That's one of her better qualities. One thing I'd love to see:
George
(aka "peckerhead) Bush in a locked room with my ex, her giving him The
Look.
He'd die within seconds.

Is that what happened to you?


Dave


No. My son and I found it funny. My son, in particular, found it hilarious.
He knew he was a cute kid, which dissolved her powers completely.