Yea, but if it was running the water would pretty much be expelled before a
noticable amount could get past the rings into the oil. Having said that it
is always advisable to back down slowly to avoid having the wake overwash
your tail.

As far as cam overlap I have about as much overlap with a crane cam in a sb
as possible with a wet exhaust and I still don't have water in the oil.

The question is how much water??? No water should be in the oil. Any more
than a little is really bad because it goes to the bottom of the oil pan and
that where your oil pump pick up is. And a very slight amount is usually
vaporized and vented. How did you find the water? While draining the oil?

"Eisboch" wrote in message
...
Dr. Dr. Smithers wrote:
Is the mechanic saying that you came off plane and the water came over
the transom and was ingested by the fuel injection system? If so, you
would have noticed if you had ever had that problem, and even if the
water flooded the deck, I can not imagine it leaking into the fuel
injection system. If it will, you need to correct that leak, because you
will always have water in a boat. . I would not accept that answer
from the dealer. You can contact Volvo Penta directly at:

http://www.volvo.com/volvopenta/glob...nited%20States




"Ralph Modica" wrote in message
...

Hello :

I have a 2003 Larson Cabrio 254 Cabin Crusier w/73 hours on the 5.7 Volvo
Penta
I/O.

Have recently discovered water in the engine oil. The dealer's mechanic
is
telling me this is "Normal" and may occur if the boat ingests water while
coming
down off-plane too rapidly or even if water is splashed too high while
putting
the boat in the water at a launch ramp.

Seems this is TOO easy an "explanation" for what I think is a defective
engine
gasket.
IF this IS something common, I'm amazed more people have not complained
to the
manufacturer's about designing their boats better to avoid water
ingestion.

I've also heard water ingestion is a common problem on Volvo 8-cylinder
I/O
engines. There is apparently a problem with valve timing being off - this
allows
the intake stroke to pull vacuum while an exhaust valve is still open,
thus
sucking water into the cylinders. Has anyone here heard of this or have
further
details ?

Thanks in advance !

Ralph




I don't know how the Volvo setup is designed, but I suspect the mechanic
is saying that the water slap on the transom pushed up into the exhaust
risers and then into a cylinder or two through the exhaust valves.

It ain't supposed to happen, but it can.

Eisboch

To All :

Thanks for your quick responses.

The boat is a cabin cruiser with a swim platform on the transom ... water did
not splash over the transom and into the fuel injection system. Water
contamination was found on the dipstick during a pre-launch checkout.

The mechanic is telling me that water may have been sucked in through the
exhaust port - either from coming off plane too quickly (never happens) or may
have splashed up into the exhaust manifold area from being offloaded from the
ramp into the water. He said some manufacturers don't position the engine or
stringers right, so a boat may be more prone to taking on water even from just
being put into the water off the trailer. I've found some info from the BoatUS
consumer site that discusses water ingestion problems .. seems it's a design
flaw that required changes in the exhaust manifold to prevent back suction of
water into the exhaust valve area when it is still partially open during the
intake stroke.

I'm intending to pursue this issue with the manufacturer (LARSON) and Volvo.
Thanks to Dr.Smithers for the link to Volvo.

If I find the dealer and/or Volvo giving me a run-around for what looks like a
design deficiency, I may consider pursuing legal class-action, as I'm probably
not the only one who has been hit with this problem. For anyone out of
warranty, they'd be stuck with the repair bill for something that is due to poor
design. With the co$t of a boat, I don't expect to have to continue to pay
co$tly repair$ for something the manufacturer should have designed correctly in
the first place.

We found the water in oil condition during a routine pre-launch check ... I've
had many years of experience rebuilding automotive engines and readily
recognized the symptoms of water contamination. Further, I just don't buy the
"this is normal and/or expected" types of answers .. it IS a design flaw. Boats
are sold with an implied "fitness of purpose" to be used on the water. To tell
me that I shouldn't abruptly slow down or even worry about boat ramp loading
areas as a problem is unacceptable. In my "day job" I'm an computer engineer ..
if I were to tell someone they could only use their computers under strict
parameters, people would rightly tell me I'm being ridiculous. Boats SHOULD be
designed to function under the types of conditions expected for on-water use -
to have an inherent problem that causes water ingestion under too easy of
conditions is NOT proper design for what the boat was intended to do.

Thanks to all for the feedback !

Ralph




JamesgangNC wrote:

Yea, but if it was running the water would pretty much be expelled before a
noticable amount could get past the rings into the oil. Having said that it
is always advisable to back down slowly to avoid having the wake overwash
your tail.

As far as cam overlap I have about as much overlap with a crane cam in a sb
as possible with a wet exhaust and I still don't have water in the oil.

The question is how much water??? No water should be in the oil. Any more
than a little is really bad because it goes to the bottom of the oil pan and
that where your oil pump pick up is. And a very slight amount is usually
vaporized and vented. How did you find the water? While draining the oil?

"Eisboch" wrote in message
...
Dr. Dr. Smithers wrote:
Is the mechanic saying that you came off plane and the water came over
the transom and was ingested by the fuel injection system? If so, you
would have noticed if you had ever had that problem, and even if the
water flooded the deck, I can not imagine it leaking into the fuel
injection system. If it will, you need to correct that leak, because you
will always have water in a boat. . I would not accept that answer
from the dealer. You can contact Volvo Penta directly at:

http://www.volvo.com/volvopenta/glob...nited%20States




"Ralph Modica" wrote in message
...

Hello :

I have a 2003 Larson Cabrio 254 Cabin Crusier w/73 hours on the 5.7 Volvo
Penta
I/O.

Have recently discovered water in the engine oil. The dealer's mechanic
is
telling me this is "Normal" and may occur if the boat ingests water while
coming
down off-plane too rapidly or even if water is splashed too high while
putting
the boat in the water at a launch ramp.

Seems this is TOO easy an "explanation" for what I think is a defective
engine
gasket.
IF this IS something common, I'm amazed more people have not complained
to the
manufacturer's about designing their boats better to avoid water
ingestion.

I've also heard water ingestion is a common problem on Volvo 8-cylinder
I/O
engines. There is apparently a problem with valve timing being off - this
allows
the intake stroke to pull vacuum while an exhaust valve is still open,
thus
sucking water into the cylinders. Has anyone here heard of this or have
further
details ?

Thanks in advance !

Ralph




I don't know how the Volvo setup is designed, but I suspect the mechanic
is saying that the water slap on the transom pushed up into the exhaust
risers and then into a cylinder or two through the exhaust valves.

It ain't supposed to happen, but it can.

Eisboch

Ralph Modica wrote:
To All :

Thanks for your quick responses.

The boat is a cabin cruiser with a swim platform on the transom ... water did
not splash over the transom and into the fuel injection system. Water
contamination was found on the dipstick during a pre-launch checkout.

The mechanic is telling me that water may have been sucked in through the
exhaust port - either from coming off plane too quickly (never happens) or may
have splashed up into the exhaust manifold area from being offloaded from the
ramp into the water. He said some manufacturers don't position the engine or
stringers right, so a boat may be more prone to taking on water even from just
being put into the water off the trailer. I've found some info from the BoatUS
consumer site that discusses water ingestion problems .. seems it's a design
flaw that required changes in the exhaust manifold to prevent back suction of
water into the exhaust valve area when it is still partially open during the
intake stroke.

I'm intending to pursue this issue with the manufacturer (LARSON) and Volvo.
Thanks to Dr.Smithers for the link to Volvo.

If I find the dealer and/or Volvo giving me a run-around for what looks like a
design deficiency, I may consider pursuing legal class-action, as I'm probably
not the only one who has been hit with this problem. For anyone out of
warranty, they'd be stuck with the repair bill for something that is due to poor
design. With the co$t of a boat, I don't expect to have to continue to pay
co$tly repair$ for something the manufacturer should have designed correctly in
the first place.

We found the water in oil condition during a routine pre-launch check ... I've
had many years of experience rebuilding automotive engines and readily
recognized the symptoms of water contamination. Further, I just don't buy the
"this is normal and/or expected" types of answers .. it IS a design flaw. Boats
are sold with an implied "fitness of purpose" to be used on the water. To tell
me that I shouldn't abruptly slow down or even worry about boat ramp loading
areas as a problem is unacceptable. In my "day job" I'm an computer engineer ..
if I were to tell someone they could only use their computers under strict
parameters, people would rightly tell me I'm being ridiculous. Boats SHOULD be
designed to function under the types of conditions expected for on-water use -
to have an inherent problem that causes water ingestion under too easy of
conditions is NOT proper design for what the boat was intended to do.

Thanks to all for the feedback !

Ralph


The water in the oil is most likely not from the manifolds... this would
suggest a hydro-lock exposure... and would be a very unusual
circumstance on the Volvo I/O(especially this new). The Mercruiser, for
example, has a flapper in the leg to prevent power-off or reverse
intrusion(although it commonly fatigues & fails - & owners run the boats
in all kinds of conditions for years and never notice it has been gone
for a long time) and the Volvo likely has a similar protection feature.

Then, even if it does get past the leg, the risers are next. Unless the
manifolds have been severely ravaged by exposure/corrosion, cylinder
intrusion is unlikely in a properly operating running engine. Even
then, the mechanic is suggesting that the water then got past the
pistons & rings - highly improbable. The valve timing overlap is a
non-issue - that engine is of a relatively mild tune - more like an RV
cam grind for torque & low end grunt(under 5000 rpm power) not a radical
street/strip shaft.

The problem sounds like an intake manifold gasket, and it is not
"normal". How much water do you think it was in the mix? This is a GM
engine, but Volvo should be able to address the issue. The brand of
boat would seem to be irrelevant. Get it fixed under warranty... I'm
wondering if the mechanic or shop is trying to put off the job until he
can be paid an off-warranty rate for the work.

Rob

I agree with Rob on this one, I doubt it from exhaust reversion while
running. The cam is just way too mild for that.

Sometimes a lot of water getting back up the exhaust will leak past the
rings into the oil but in that situation you have to have the engine off
when the water enters the exhaust and stay off for a long time for the water
to leak past the rings. Seldom happens on a trailer boat. You launch, you
start the engine. Merc does have riser extenders for large boats where the
engine is mounted close to the water line. I don't know about Volvo.

I'd be looking for other sources like gaskets. Where are you located and
how often was the boat used this summer? Was it properly winterized last
winter? Have you drained the oil to determine the amount of water yet? The
total amount of water is really going to be a useful clue. When you say
water was found on the dipstick, you mean the white crud resulting from a
water/oil mix? Remove the oil filler cap and look there too. Does it live
outside on the trailer? Always stored with the bow high?

As to fitness of purpose I'm guessing maybe this is your first boat? Boats
are nothing like cars and they have a whole lot harder life that most
things. Combine that with the fact that most boat builders are more like a
cottage industry than a major manufacturer and you soon figure out why they
call boats a hole in the water you pour money into :-)

"Ralph Modica" wrote in message
...
To All :

Thanks for your quick responses.

The boat is a cabin cruiser with a swim platform on the transom ... water
did
not splash over the transom and into the fuel injection system. Water
contamination was found on the dipstick during a pre-launch checkout.

The mechanic is telling me that water may have been sucked in through the
exhaust port - either from coming off plane too quickly (never happens) or
may
have splashed up into the exhaust manifold area from being offloaded from
the
ramp into the water. He said some manufacturers don't position the engine
or
stringers right, so a boat may be more prone to taking on water even from
just
being put into the water off the trailer. I've found some info from the
BoatUS
consumer site that discusses water ingestion problems .. seems it's a
design
flaw that required changes in the exhaust manifold to prevent back suction
of
water into the exhaust valve area when it is still partially open during
the
intake stroke.

I'm intending to pursue this issue with the manufacturer (LARSON) and
Volvo.
Thanks to Dr.Smithers for the link to Volvo.

If I find the dealer and/or Volvo giving me a run-around for what looks
like a
design deficiency, I may consider pursuing legal class-action, as I'm
probably
not the only one who has been hit with this problem. For anyone out of
warranty, they'd be stuck with the repair bill for something that is due
to poor
design. With the co$t of a boat, I don't expect to have to continue to pay
co$tly repair$ for something the manufacturer should have designed
correctly in
the first place.

We found the water in oil condition during a routine pre-launch check ...
I've
had many years of experience rebuilding automotive engines and readily
recognized the symptoms of water contamination. Further, I just don't buy
the
"this is normal and/or expected" types of answers .. it IS a design flaw.
Boats
are sold with an implied "fitness of purpose" to be used on the water. To
tell
me that I shouldn't abruptly slow down or even worry about boat ramp
loading
areas as a problem is unacceptable. In my "day job" I'm an computer
engineer ..
if I were to tell someone they could only use their computers under strict
parameters, people would rightly tell me I'm being ridiculous. Boats
SHOULD be
designed to function under the types of conditions expected for on-water
use -
to have an inherent problem that causes water ingestion under too easy of
conditions is NOT proper design for what the boat was intended to do.

Thanks to all for the feedback !

Ralph




JamesgangNC wrote:

Yea, but if it was running the water would pretty much be expelled before
a
noticable amount could get past the rings into the oil. Having said that
it
is always advisable to back down slowly to avoid having the wake overwash
your tail.

As far as cam overlap I have about as much overlap with a crane cam in a
sb
as possible with a wet exhaust and I still don't have water in the oil.

The question is how much water??? No water should be in the oil. Any
more
than a little is really bad because it goes to the bottom of the oil pan
and
that where your oil pump pick up is. And a very slight amount is usually
vaporized and vented. How did you find the water? While draining the
oil?

"Eisboch" wrote in message
...
Dr. Dr. Smithers wrote:
Is the mechanic saying that you came off plane and the water came over
the transom and was ingested by the fuel injection system? If so, you
would have noticed if you had ever had that problem, and even if the
water flooded the deck, I can not imagine it leaking into the fuel
injection system. If it will, you need to correct that leak, because
you
will always have water in a boat. . I would not accept that answer
from the dealer. You can contact Volvo Penta directly at:

http://www.volvo.com/volvopenta/glob...nited%20States




"Ralph Modica" wrote in message
...

Hello :

I have a 2003 Larson Cabrio 254 Cabin Crusier w/73 hours on the 5.7
Volvo
Penta
I/O.

Have recently discovered water in the engine oil. The dealer's
mechanic
is
telling me this is "Normal" and may occur if the boat ingests water
while
coming
down off-plane too rapidly or even if water is splashed too high while
putting
the boat in the water at a launch ramp.

Seems this is TOO easy an "explanation" for what I think is a
defective
engine
gasket.
IF this IS something common, I'm amazed more people have not
complained
to the
manufacturer's about designing their boats better to avoid water
ingestion.

I've also heard water ingestion is a common problem on Volvo
8-cylinder
I/O
engines. There is apparently a problem with valve timing being off -
this
allows
the intake stroke to pull vacuum while an exhaust valve is still open,
thus
sucking water into the cylinders. Has anyone here heard of this or
have
further
details ?

Thanks in advance !

Ralph




I don't know how the Volvo setup is designed, but I suspect the
mechanic
is saying that the water slap on the transom pushed up into the exhaust
risers and then into a cylinder or two through the exhaust valves.

It ain't supposed to happen, but it can.

Eisboch

Risers are too short for the engine/hull configuration. You'll never get the
dealer to admit it, but check around with other owners of your hull/engine
combo in your area and see who else has the same tbl.
Best of luck
Mike

Mike, I was on the fence about that one. Typically you experience hydrolock
symptoms at least some times with water coming back through the exhaust. If
the boat was used as an overnighter that might increase the possibility. A
lot of factors have to happen just right to get water through the exhaust
and past the rings without the operator noticing it when they try to start
the engine.

Do you know if volvo makes riser extenders similar to the merc ones? Their
manifolds look a lot like mercs. If that's the problem then the fix is
fairly straight forward. Also makes the problem entirely Larson's, Volvo
has not control over engine placement relative to the waterline beyond
recomendations which I'm sure they make.

Ralph, here's what the riser extenders look like for merc. You can see they
are simply blocks with the correct passsages designed to go between the
manifolds and the risers. They raise the exhaust riser for situations where
the boat engine sits low in the hull. It keeps the riser far enough above
the waterline to keep water from entering the exhaust while the engine is
off. If I were at a dealer I'd be tempted to just put one agains a volvo
riser to see if the pattern is the same. I know next to nothing about volvo
so I don't know if they have their own riser extenders. Volvo has the
advantage of being better engineered, merc has been around forever. Due to
overwhelming numbers they have had to confront a lot of real world problems.

http://www.perfprotech.com/Home/Tech...0manifolds.htm


"CaptMP" wrote in message
...
Risers are too short for the engine/hull configuration. You'll never get
the
dealer to admit it, but check around with other owners of your hull/engine
combo in your area and see who else has the same tbl.
Best of luck
Mike

"Ralph Modica" wrote in message
...
To All :

Thanks for your quick responses.

I had another thought that you might want to consider.

It's a boat, it leaks. Normally this water collects in the bilge until it
gets high enough to activate the bilge pump and then the water level lowers
some amount.

Many boats have their bilge pump on a three position switch: On, Auto, and
OFF. If left in the off position the water level can accumulate in the
bilge. The amount that accumulates might not be a problem while operating
on a fairly level keel.

Then you reach the launch ramp. The steep incline while pulling out makes
all the water run to the back. The three of four inches that had been
distributed along most of the length is now concentrated in the engine
compartment. It is possible for the water level to get high enough to cover
the dipstick tube and thus water can enter the engine.

You get to the top of the ramp, the boat levels out and the water spreads
itself out again so you never get to see the water level in the engine
compartment at its highest level.

Just a thought.....

Rod

rmcinnis wrote:

"Ralph Modica" wrote in message
...

To All :

Thanks for your quick responses.


I had another thought that you might want to consider.

It's a boat, it leaks. Normally this water collects in the bilge until it
gets high enough to activate the bilge pump and then the water level lowers
some amount.

Many boats have their bilge pump on a three position switch: On, Auto, and
OFF. If left in the off position the water level can accumulate in the
bilge. The amount that accumulates might not be a problem while operating
on a fairly level keel.

Then you reach the launch ramp. The steep incline while pulling out makes
all the water run to the back. The three of four inches that had been
distributed along most of the length is now concentrated in the engine
compartment. It is possible for the water level to get high enough to cover
the dipstick tube and thus water can enter the engine.

You get to the top of the ramp, the boat levels out and the water spreads
itself out again so you never get to see the water level in the engine
compartment at its highest level.

Just a thought.....

Rod



NO WAY without noticing! That would be so much weight in water to cause
serious listing/swamping/trailering issues...

Rob