in article , Tinkerntom at
wrote on 11/28/04 1:10 PM:

Keenan Wellar wrote in message
news:BDCE0FAD.12800%UseAddressOnWebPageProvided@h otmail.com...
in article , Tinkerntom at
wrote on 11/27/04 8:47 AM:

Keenan Wellar wrote in message
news:BDCD7D6C.127E5%UseAddressOnWebPageProvided@h otmail.com...
in article , Tinkerntom at
wrote on 11/26/04 8:36 PM:

Keenan, Keenan, what are we going to do with such vitrol. I realize
that you have not received the post yet that I sent earlier, and this
may pass your response in cyber space. However, this recent post by
you continues to demonstrate the high level of vitrol present in your
post, you need to check your dipstick. High vitrol, leads to
bitterness, resentment and anger, all of which seems to be present. I
hope that you can find a less public dumping ground than a public
forum to work out your issues, though if you choose to continue here,
you are certainly free to do so, and reap the commentary of Retter and
company.

As is often the case, I have no idea what you are talking about.

I misspelled the word "vitriol" above, defined as in caustic quality,
esp. virulence of feeling or of speech. So probably I left you
wondering what I was speaking of when I mentioned "vitrol." I hope
this clarifies what I was talking about. But if it does not, please
let me qualify further. Often times as you respond, it appears that
you are bitter, angry, and resentful. I assume from my googling, that
you are in your 30s, though it is not really important. If you
continue with this vitriol, someday you will be a bitter old man!

The problem was not your spelling.

Now that you have clarified, I thank you for your misplaced concern.

Now having said that, I detect a lowering of the vitriol even in the
last couple of post, and look forward to having a reasonable
conversation.

That would depend on whether or not you will be speaking within the bounds
of reason.

Reason for one, may be madness for the other, but we can try!

Indeed.


I cherish your civil and professional response which I am sure you are
capable of. The one liners, and childish logic demean your
credentials. Retter needles you as being a fool. I don't perceive you
as a fool, so why do you persist in presenting yourself as one?

Sometimes in order to communicate with a child you need to speak in a
child's language.

I assume you are speaking of your discussions with Retter. I will also
assume the two of you have met before, so you may actually be the best
of friends. For that reason I will not come between you, and will let
you work it out with him.

Uh...how to respond in the positive fashion you crave without reinforcing
the strange conclusions...how's this:

Thank you for understanding that my communications with others are none of
your business.


Keenan, if you post publicly, they become public business.

Let me restate.

While you are obviously free to offer comments on anything you see here, the
idea that you might or might not come between myself and another, and that
you will "let me work it out" with someone else is a rather pompous
offering, in that I never asked you to mediate said communications, not did
I ever consider requesting such a contribution from you.

However
being civil, we turn away from someone ****ing in public, to allow
them their public indecency. I will be glad to allow you and any
others to continue your ****ing contest, but I will exercise my
privilege of not having to watch!

There are different forms of ****ing. I suggest your urine has soaked this
newsgroup rather thoroughly.

Even in this last post of yours, you delve into the depths of the
meaning of extro and intro, and totally miss, or should I say ignore
the true meaning of my post.

I found it...odd...that you felt the need to explain what an extrovert is.

I was not pointing out the difference between "extro and intro" so
much as anwering your question as to why Patton is perceived now as
bitter and unstable. His personality shifted when he was no longer in
control. I am sure that you know the difference between the two words
as most readers here would, but I did not want to assume all
understood the dynamic of the shift from an ENTP to an INTP, or worse,
INTJ. You from your professional training may be familiar with these
nuances, but I did not want to assume that either, since I do not know
your exact professional credentials. Maybe I should do some more
googling. In as much as there is only one of you, it is pretty easy!
Luckily for us!

Yeah, great.

Lots of interesting reading, and you have some very creative friends,

http://www.geocities.com/herblovesje...magination.jpg

http://www.geocities.com/flamingpoul...kmanonlost.jpg

http://www.geocities.com/flamingpoul...manonlost2.jpg

Is cyberstalking part of your cultish personality?

And if that escapes your ability to
comprehend, you also miss the sincere spirit in which I wrote. I do
not find my stability in question, but you are the one that presents a
less than desirable character to be discussing a serious subject. Are
you contrary, for the sake of being contrary, or in the American
Indian sense of the word, if you know what that means?

You've lost me with the American Indian comment.

Some people are contrary just to be mean! However, particularly in the
Souix tribe, there was a group identified as "Contraries". Of course
that was not the word used, but a Souix language word has been
translated as contraries.
The contrary wasn't particularly mean, but went through life doing
things backwards. He walked backwards, and took dirt baths, and wore
his/her clothes backwards, and even learned to talk backwards. Food
that was normally eaten cold, was eaten hot, and vice versus. You
begin to get the point!

The contraries were actually fearsome warriors, because at the time
the conflicting tribes were not so much interested in killing their
enemy, as in counting coup. In the heat of battle, the bravest would
try to get close enough to the adversary to just touch him, and then
get away. If successful they would then capture a part of the spirit
of the one who was touched.

Well, when the contrary came riding into battle, riding backwards. It
would so freak out the other side, who didn't want anything to do with
him, they would often just flee the battlefield. Lest they get touched
by and become under the influence of the contrary spirit.

Now in our society, we would put these crazy folks away, and lock them
up. However, for his own people at that time, he was treated as a
hero, and lived an elevated position in the tribe. Often times, the
men dressed as women, and the women as men. And they usually expressed
the opposite sexual trait as well. Though even that served an accepted
practice and need in the tribe as well. The Souix did not look down
upon the homosexual, but again elevated him because of his dual
spirit.

Now all this has to do with you, if you are contrary because that is
the way you are, or because of a mean spirit. I hope you are not mean,
and that does not imply that any of the rest of the discription
applies either. We are in a different place and a different time.
However, I believe that there is still lots of latitude for personal
expression!

The above description came from the Souix story book, Hanto Yo, which
was originally written in the Souix Language, on a Buffaloe Skin. It
eventually was translated, for publication. Parts of it does sound
familiar to what has gone on this thread, and others, where a bunch of
contrary nitpicking is going on, as if we are trying to count coup on
the other poster, and we prevail when they all leave when things get
too contrary.

That's all very fascinating, but in a fashion that seems typical for you,
you have failed to consider that it may be you who is riding backwards!


Again you are correct, as I may appear to be riding backwards to you.

Or, you may in fact be riding backwards.

It did not take Einstein to figure out that all is relative, the Souix
had it figured out a long time ago.

Yes, a clever bunch.

I have no idea as to your stability outside of this forum. It may simply be
your writing style that leaves an unstable impression. To be honest, you
come across as though you are part of some sort of cult.

As far as writing style, I understand, that it may appear unstable,
for you have seen me take different tacks from time to time. I don't
know if you have done any sailing, but tacking is done to make headway
into an opposing and changing wind. And there has been some wild wind
on this thread about wild places. Tacking was necessary, not for the
purpose of deceit, but inorder to arrive where we are today. I know
that I am still the International Man of Mystery, but we are getting
to know each other better, as the mystery is revealed. Yeah...
Baaby!!!!

Have you ever worked for a carpet cleaning company at which time you went by
the name "Tanya?"

Tanya sounds like a character, but no, I have never worked for a
carpet cleaning company, and I am not Tanya.

You may wish to google on Seinfeld episodes in order to understand this
reference.

In reading, I found that
you have quite a following, between Tanya, Louise, Sharon, and Sandra,
and almost 9000 post, you have made quite a name for yourself. I still
wonder what the secret is for such prolific postings, and that is just
on the usenet, to say nothing of the rest of your posting activity.

I tend to keep my posts a bit more to the point than yourself.

You must be the real superman to do this, and then carry on with your
regular schedule as Clark Kent! When do you ever get time to paddle?

Sadly, I did not get out much this year. My posts will no doubt go down next
year as Julie and I are moving to the waterfront, and thus will surely
paddle on a frequent basis.

Respectfully Tinkerntom, aka KnesisKnosis, Life, Live it!

That particular sig line doesn't help alleviate that impression either.

I would be very interested in your definition of a cult

I'd prefer not to have a discussion about the definition of cults.

From the way you write I picture you with a permanent smile and a vacant
stare.

and what is
your impression of my sig line, how does it bother you?

Respectfully, Tinkerntom, aka KnesisKnosis, Life, Live it!

It doesn't "bother" me it just adds to your cultish personality.

You are again so right, I should start a cult where we are happy, and
only look for the good in others, and don't get down on all the
terrible things happening all the time. But instead we are excited to
be alive, and able to live with the faculties we have, to the fullest
of are capabilities. Making no excuses, and laughing allowed when we
screw up. We would even help each other out of the mud and muck of
life, when we fall down, instead of stepping on the neck of a fallen
comrade, and cursing their name. Yeah....Baaby, that's the kind of
cult I would want to belong in. How about you being the first convert,
all you have to do is start smiling!

I spend a lot of time smiling and laughing, but not everything I see is
funny, and serious issues require a serious response from those who believe
that it takes more than "more guns and/or more jesus" to make the world a
better place.

Keenan Wellar wrote in message news:BDCFB1C5.12892%UseAddressOnWebPageProvided@h otmail.com...
in article , Tinkerntom at
wrote on 11/28/04 1:10 PM:

Keenan Wellar wrote in message
news:BDCE0FAD.12800%UseAddressOnWebPageProvided@h otmail.com...
in article , Tinkerntom at
wrote on 11/27/04 8:47 AM:

Keenan Wellar wrote in message
news:BDCD7D6C.127E5%UseAddressOnWebPageProvided@h otmail.com...
in article , Tinkerntom at
wrote on 11/26/04 8:36 PM:

Keenan, Keenan, what are we going to do with such vitrol.
snipped

As is often the case, I have no idea what you are talking about.

In another discussion, that I tracked down, you were stating that you
were not fluent in French, to which the response was that they doubted
you were fluent in English as well. I begin to wonder the same thing!
At one time, I thought you were Clueless in Canada, now I just wonder!

snipped

look forward to having a reasonable conversation.

That would depend on whether or not you will be speaking within the bounds
of reason.

Reason for one, may be madness for the other, but we can try!

Indeed.

We don't have to try, but yes, we can indeed try, if you would like?

snipped

none of your business.


Keenan, if you post publicly, they become public business.

Let me restate.

While you are obviously free to offer comments on anything you see here, the
idea that you might or might not come between myself and another, and that
you will "let me work it out" with someone else is a rather pompous
offering, in that I never asked you to mediate said communications, not did
I ever consider requesting such a contribution from you.

Keenan, Pompous? You should know about being pompous! As if I would
even want to mediate any communications for you. Retter was doing just
fine calling you the fool, and certainly did not need any help from
me. My only offer was to have a resonable conversation myself, with
someone that I thought was capable of entering into something more
than a ****ing contest. What you do with Retter, is your business, and
I am strictly hands off. There is no might about it, in the future,
you two are on your own.




However
being civil, we turn away from someone ****ing in public, to allow
them their public indecency. I will be glad to allow you and any
others to continue your ****ing contest, but I will exercise my
privilege of not having to watch!

There are different forms of ****ing. I suggest your urine has soaked this
newsgroup rather thoroughly.


And now, you get down and personal with me, and accuse me of soaking
this newsgroup. Hardly, judging from your style, are you in a position
to judge. Check out the following,

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=e...rovided%2540ho

Who smothers news groups with there ****ing style? Claiming on one
hand to not be able to understand what is clearly said, and then
acting insulted because anyone would question your higher knowledge
and intelligence. Countering and contradicting every point make by
anyone and everyone. I wonder if that is what the experienced posters
were warning me about?


snipped

totally miss, or should I say ignore the true meaning of my post.
snipped

Yeah, great.

Lots of interesting reading, and you have some very creative friends,

http://www.geocities.com/herblovesje...magination.jpg

http://www.geocities.com/flamingpoul...kmanonlost.jpg

http://www.geocities.com/flamingpoul...manonlost2.jpg

It seems that many are confounded by your posting style, not just me!
and I am trying real hard to give you benefit of the doubt, since we
have just met.


Is cyberstalking part of your cultish personality?

Cyberstalking, again pompous on your part, thinking that I would even
care to stalk you. No, I was encouraged to research those who are
participating in a particular discussion. Prior to that I had been
willing to take, and respond to specific statements made in a
discussion thread, at face value, independet of who was making them.
Obvious to me now, is that those who encouraged me to know my
atagonist, had probably had experience with the atagonist before. They
were probably trying to save me from a fruitless discussion.

I may be the fool, to think that there ever was, or still is hope for
a converstion with real content. But then this is the first time that
I have met you on this or any board, so this discussion has been more
of a curiosity to me than anything else. Cyberstalking, not a chance,
just getting my ducks in a line.

What makes Keenan tick? To get to know you as a person, not just an
impersonal post, disassociated from your environment, and all that you
contribute to that environment. I had no previous knowledge or
experience with you, so I researched. Next time, will be different.
Probably I will have to check out someone else. You will not be the
Belle of the Ball!

Besides, there is that word you don't want to discuss, "cult." Is that
your last line of defiance, to throw that word into a discussion, like
a grenade. A power word, from which I should just run and hide, and
coware because Keenan used the word "cult." Sorry, doesn't work for
me! Nice try, but you are going to have to find something else,
bigger, better, faster, stronger, Man of Steel.


And if that escapes your ability to
comprehend, you also miss the sincere spirit in which I wrote. I do
not find my stability in question, but you are the one that presents a
less than desirable character to be discussing a serious subject. Are
you contrary, for the sake of being contrary, or in the American
Indian sense of the word, if you know what that means?

You've lost me with the American Indian comment.

Some people are contrary just to be mean! However, particularly in the
Souix tribe, there was a group identified as "Contraries".

snipped

That's all very fascinating, but in a fashion that seems typical for you,
you have failed to consider that it may be you who is riding backwards!


Again you are correct, as I may appear to be riding backwards to you.

Or, you may in fact be riding backwards.

It did not take Einstein to figure out that all is relative, the Souix
had it figured out a long time ago.

Yes, a clever bunch.

And some with higher education, haven't figured it out yet! Go figure.



snipped

Have you ever worked for a carpet cleaning company at which time you went by
the name "Tanya?"

Tanya sounds like a character, but no, I have never worked for a
carpet cleaning company, and I am not Tanya.

You may wish to google on Seinfeld episodes in order to understand this
reference.

Well my education continues, I will definitly Google Seinfeld.


In reading, I found that
you have quite a following, between Tanya, Louise, Sharon, and Sandra,
and almost 9000 post, you have made quite a name for yourself. I still
wonder what the secret is for such prolific postings, and that is just
on the usenet, to say nothing of the rest of your posting activity.

I tend to keep my posts a bit more to the point than yourself.

But then the point always remains. What is your point, here and
elsewhere?
What makes you tick? After 9000 post does anyone know, including
yourself?


You must be the real superman to do this, and then carry on with your
regular schedule as Clark Kent! When do you ever get time to paddle?

Sadly, I did not get out much this year. My posts will no doubt go down next
year as Julie and I are moving to the waterfront, and thus will surely
paddle on a frequent basis.

Hey, we're on topic, the waterfront move sounds great. I assume you
mean in Ottawa, what do you mean by water front. Do you have frontage
on a river or lake, or are you just close by? Either way it sounds
great, though I expect that it is pretty cold up there now, and not a
lot of kayaking today.

I googled Ottawa, to learn about your beautiful city, and exactly
where it is located. I know, another dumb American, but I am getting
smarter! I have really never traveled in NE US, so not real familiar
with the geography, and never been able to get to Canada. I can
visualize the St. Lawrence river, but it appears that Ottawa is
located off of the SLR. Are sea going ships able to get into the city
harbor? Does it stay free of ice, or does it ice up? I suppose it
would still be pretty cold water?

When you go kayaking locally, do you go in the Ottawa river, or one of
the other smaller rivers? Seems that dodging big ship could be very
exciting in a very small kayak. It appears that there is water
everywhere you look on the map of that area. You could probably kayak
forever and not see or go everywhere.

Living here in Denver, on the High plains, which is basically a
desert, we have the reservoir, year around, but the river all but
dries up. Of course most of the WW kayakers go up in the mountains
rivers and creeks. But the last few years even that season has been
short, with continuing drought, and low water. There are some other
lakes up in the mtns, that I hope to check out with the Folbot, and do
some camping. But I definitely envy you with all your opportunities
close by.

Keep us posted, and I'll look for pictures and reports on your
website.


Now doesn't that feel much better?


snipped

being the first convert, all you have to do is start smiling!

I spend a lot of time smiling and laughing, but not everything I see is
funny,

Well welcome to the club, er I mean cult then. Now that we got two
members, we need to have a business meeting and come up with a name.
Not really, just joking!

and serious issues require a serious response from those who believe
that it takes more than "more guns and/or more jesus" to make the world a
better place.

Now on a more serious note, just for you. I don't think, that I said
anything about guns, and two, I don't know that Jesus would make the
world a better place. I don't think I said that either. I would say
that Jesus would make you a better person. I do not believe that
religion would do anything for you or anyone, except make you feel
better maybe for a while. What Jesus offers is forever! Two totally
different issues. Religion in whatever form is man reaching up to
"God", Christianity, is God reaching down to man! How high can you
reach?


KOS Tinkerntom, aka KnesisKnosis, Life, Live it!

"Tinkerntom" wrote in message
m...
Keenan Wellar wrote in message
news:BDCFB1C5.12892%UseAddressOnWebPageProvided@h otmail.com...
in article , Tinkerntom at
wrote on 11/28/04 1:10 PM:

Keenan Wellar wrote in
message
news:BDCE0FAD.12800%UseAddressOnWebPageProvided@h otmail.com...
in article , Tinkerntom
at
wrote on 11/27/04 8:47 AM:

Keenan Wellar wrote in
message
news:BDCD7D6C.127E5%UseAddressOnWebPageProvided@h otmail.com...
in article ,
Tinkerntom at
wrote on 11/26/04 8:36 PM:

Keenan, Keenan, what are we going to do with such vitrol.
snipped

As is often the case, I have no idea what you are talking about.

In another discussion, that I tracked down, you were stating that you
were not fluent in French, to which the response was that they doubted
you were fluent in English as well. I begin to wonder the same thing!
At one time, I thought you were Clueless in Canada, now I just wonder!

Sounds incredibly relevant Tom, whatever the hell it is you are talking
about now.

snipped

look forward to having a reasonable conversation.

That would depend on whether or not you will be speaking within the
bounds
of reason.

Reason for one, may be madness for the other, but we can try!

Indeed.

We don't have to try, but yes, we can indeed try, if you would like?

snipped

none of your business.


Keenan, if you post publicly, they become public business.

Let me restate.

While you are obviously free to offer comments on anything you see here,
the
idea that you might or might not come between myself and another, and
that
you will "let me work it out" with someone else is a rather pompous
offering, in that I never asked you to mediate said communications, not
did
I ever consider requesting such a contribution from you.

Keenan, Pompous? You should know about being pompous! As if I would
even want to mediate any communications for you. Retter was doing just
fine calling you the fool, and certainly did not need any help from
me. My only offer was to have a resonable conversation myself, with
someone that I thought was capable of entering into something more
than a ****ing contest. What you do with Retter, is your business, and
I am strictly hands off. There is no might about it, in the future,
you two are on your own.

Then why comment on it?

However
being civil, we turn away from someone ****ing in public, to allow
them their public indecency. I will be glad to allow you and any
others to continue your ****ing contest, but I will exercise my
privilege of not having to watch!

There are different forms of ****ing. I suggest your urine has soaked
this
newsgroup rather thoroughly.


And now, you get down and personal with me, and accuse me of soaking
this newsgroup.

You went first, Tom. I didn't introduce the ****ing, you did, remember?

Hardly, judging from your style, are you in a position
to judge. Check out the following,

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=e...rovided%2540ho

A discussion about inflation and oil prices? Geezus Tom, if you wanted to
establishing that I can act ****y when posting on usenet, I could have given
you a post ten times better than that one!

Who smothers news groups with there ****ing style? Claiming on one
hand to not be able to understand what is clearly said

Ah. So whatever you say, however you say it, the other person is at fault if
your intent is not both clearly understood and appreciated. Interesting.

and then
acting insulted because anyone would question your higher knowledge
and intelligence.

Are you talking about the time you babbled on about the meaning of
"extrovert" by chance?

Countering and contradicting every point make by
anyone and everyone. I wonder if that is what the experienced posters
were warning me about?

Oooo....the experienced posters were warning you, were they? Of what,
exactly? That I would surf all over the net trying to find out things about
you so that I could introduce unlimited irrelevancy into the discussion here
on rec.boats.paddle?

snipped

totally miss, or should I say ignore the true meaning of my post.
snipped

Yeah, great.

Lots of interesting reading, and you have some very creative friends,

http://www.geocities.com/herblovesje...magination.jpg

http://www.geocities.com/flamingpoul...kmanonlost.jpg

http://www.geocities.com/flamingpoul...manonlost2.jpg

It seems that many are confounded by your posting style, not just me!

Why does it seem that way? Who is confounded?

and I am trying real hard to give you benefit of the doubt, since we
have just met.

The benefit of what doubt?

Is cyberstalking part of your cultish personality?

Cyberstalking, again pompous on your part, thinking that I would even
care to stalk you. No, I was encouraged to research those who are
participating in a particular discussion.

Encouraged...by whom? Your cult masters? Is something controlling you, Tom?
If so, is there a chance for you to get away from them? How can we help?

Prior to that I had been
willing to take, and respond to specific statements made in a
discussion thread, at face value, independet of who was making them.

OK...

Obvious to me now, is that those who encouraged me to know my
atagonist, had probably had experience with the atagonist before. They
were probably trying to save me from a fruitless discussion.

It sounds like an awful lot of people are concerned about you, Tom.

I may be the fool, to think that there ever was, or still is hope for
a converstion with real content. But then this is the first time that
I have met you on this or any board, so this discussion has been more
of a curiosity to me than anything else. Cyberstalking, not a chance,
just getting my ducks in a line.

What ducks?

What makes Keenan tick? To get to know you as a person, not just an
impersonal post, disassociated from your environment, and all that you
contribute to that environment. I had no previous knowledge or
experience with you, so I researched. Next time, will be different.
Probably I will have to check out someone else. You will not be the
Belle of the Ball!

Resarching by googling in newsgroups is likely to be a very limited means of
getting to know someone, Tom.

Besides, there is that word you don't want to discuss, "cult." Is that
your last line of defiance, to throw that word into a discussion, like
a grenade. A power word, from which I should just run and hide, and
coware because Keenan used the word "cult." Sorry, doesn't work for
me! Nice try, but you are going to have to find something else,
bigger, better, faster, stronger, Man of Steel.

Tom, I can promise you 100% that I was in fact certain that you would not be
the least bit troubled by it.


And if that escapes your ability to
comprehend, you also miss the sincere spirit in which I wrote. I
do
not find my stability in question, but you are the one that
presents a
less than desirable character to be discussing a serious subject.
Are
you contrary, for the sake of being contrary, or in the American
Indian sense of the word, if you know what that means?

You've lost me with the American Indian comment.

Some people are contrary just to be mean! However, particularly in
the
Souix tribe, there was a group identified as "Contraries".

snipped

That's all very fascinating, but in a fashion that seems typical for
you,
you have failed to consider that it may be you who is riding
backwards!


Again you are correct, as I may appear to be riding backwards to you.

Or, you may in fact be riding backwards.

It did not take Einstein to figure out that all is relative, the Souix
had it figured out a long time ago.

Yes, a clever bunch.

And some with higher education, haven't figured it out yet! Go figure.

Not surprising in the least.

snipped

Have you ever worked for a carpet cleaning company at which time you
went by
the name "Tanya?"

Tanya sounds like a character, but no, I have never worked for a
carpet cleaning company, and I am not Tanya.

You may wish to google on Seinfeld episodes in order to understand this
reference.

Well my education continues, I will definitly Google Seinfeld.

Excellent!

In reading, I found that
you have quite a following, between Tanya, Louise, Sharon, and Sandra,
and almost 9000 post, you have made quite a name for yourself. I still
wonder what the secret is for such prolific postings, and that is just
on the usenet, to say nothing of the rest of your posting activity.

I tend to keep my posts a bit more to the point than yourself.

But then the point always remains. What is your point, here and
elsewhere?
What makes you tick? After 9000 post does anyone know, including
yourself?

It would depend on the topic at hand, Tom.

You must be the real superman to do this, and then carry on with your
regular schedule as Clark Kent! When do you ever get time to paddle?

Sadly, I did not get out much this year. My posts will no doubt go down
next
year as Julie and I are moving to the waterfront, and thus will surely
paddle on a frequent basis.

Hey, we're on topic, the waterfront move sounds great. I assume you
mean in Ottawa, what do you mean by water front. Do you have frontage
on a river or lake, or are you just close by? Either way it sounds
great, though I expect that it is pretty cold up there now, and not a
lot of kayaking today.

Our back yard (or front yard depending on one's perspective) will in fact be
on the Ottawa River. Very exciting. I intend to paddle until the water
freezes up, at which point a rink will be made and I'll play hockey on it
instead.

I googled Ottawa, to learn about your beautiful city, and exactly
where it is located. I know, another dumb American, but I am getting
smarter! I have really never traveled in NE US, so not real familiar
with the geography, and never been able to get to Canada. I can
visualize the St. Lawrence river, but it appears that Ottawa is
located off of the SLR. Are sea going ships able to get into the city
harbor? Does it stay free of ice, or does it ice up? I suppose it
would still be pretty cold water?

No sea ships. There are a number of areas on the Ottawa that are currently
impassible, although from time to time a plot surfaces to make it fully
navigable.

When you go kayaking locally, do you go in the Ottawa river, or one of
the other smaller rivers? Seems that dodging big ship could be very
exciting in a very small kayak. It appears that there is water
everywhere you look on the map of that area. You could probably kayak
forever and not see or go everywhere.

Tom, I thought you'd been to my kayaking website! Perhaps you should have
spent more time there instead of googling my participation on usenet.

Living here in Denver, on the High plains, which is basically a
desert, we have the reservoir, year around, but the river all but
dries up. Of course most of the WW kayakers go up in the mountains
rivers and creeks. But the last few years even that season has been
short, with continuing drought, and low water. There are some other
lakes up in the mtns, that I hope to check out with the Folbot, and do
some camping. But I definitely envy you with all your opportunities
close by.

Interesting...this is a pretty good whitewater area. I am a "sea kayaker"
myself so often a bit of a trip is in order to get full enjoyment.

Keep us posted, and I'll look for pictures and reports on your
website.

Now doesn't that feel much better?

I was aware that I wasn't feeling well. But if you feel, better, that's
good!

snipped

being the first convert, all you have to do is start smiling!

I spend a lot of time smiling and laughing, but not everything I see is
funny,

Well welcome to the club, er I mean cult then. Now that we got two
members, we need to have a business meeting and come up with a name.
Not really, just joking!

Funny, Tom.

and serious issues require a serious response from those who believe
that it takes more than "more guns and/or more jesus" to make the world a
better place.

Now on a more serious note, just for you. I don't think, that I said
anything about guns, and two, I don't know that Jesus would make the
world a better place.

Sorry Tom, that was actually a generic comment.

I don't think I said that either. I would say
that Jesus would make you a better person. I do not believe that
religion would do anything for you or anyone, except make you feel
better maybe for a while. What Jesus offers is forever! Two totally
different issues. Religion in whatever form is man reaching up to
"God", Christianity, is God reaching down to man! How high can you
reach?


KOS Tinkerntom, aka KnesisKnosis, Life, Live it!

Tom, take it slow, you are sounding scary again.

"Tinkerntom" wrote in message
m...
And now, you get down and personal with me, and accuse me of soaking
this newsgroup. Hardly, judging from your style, are you in a position
to judge. Check out the following,

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=e...rovided%2540ho


Umm, Tom, I'm going to put on my 'guide' hat here, because you need one at
this point.

If you insist on pasting single snippets from other threads (which is
generally frowned upon in Usenet, (see below)), or if you want to paste long
URLs, use a shortcutting site. For example, go to www.tinyurl.com or
www.makeashorterlink.com and paste the monster link in, and it will give you
a shortcut to the same site. The entire above link was abbreviated to
http://tinyurl.com/55543, for example.

Everything you post on usenet is replicated on millions of servers
worldwide. The long URLs are considered a tremendous waste of bandwidth;
doesn't seem like much, but when you multiply it by all the times it happens
on all newsgroups, times all the computers it happens on, times all the days
and all the years it happens, you get the idea of why there are protocols.

That's also the reason people usually cut threads down instead of just
replicating the entire thread each time. Its not to be rude, and shouldn't
be to be deflective (although granted, it often gets used for that), but to
be efficient.


Lots of interesting reading, and you have some very creative friends,

http://www.geocities.com/herblovesje...magination.jpg

http://www.geocities.com/flamingpoul...kmanonlost.jpg

http://www.geocities.com/flamingpoul...manonlost2.jpg

It seems that many are confounded by your posting style, not just me!
and I am trying real hard to give you benefit of the doubt, since we
have just met.


Is cyberstalking part of your cultish personality?

Cyberstalking, again pompous on your part, thinking that I would even
care to stalk you. No, I was encouraged to research those who are
participating in a particular discussion. Prior to that I had been
willing to take, and respond to specific statements made in a
discussion thread, at face value, independet of who was making them.
Obvious to me now, is that those who encouraged me to know my
atagonist, had probably had experience with the atagonist before. They
were probably trying to save me from a fruitless discussion.


Umm, that would be me that encouraged you. Let me be more specific, because
I was definately not trying to warn you away from a fruitless experience
with an antagonist, be it Keenan, Wilko, me or anyone else. I was trying to
help YOU from becoming a clueless newbie, repeating rather common newbie
errors, and unwittingly (or otherwise) finding yourSELF as the antagonist.

(Now, I know you can split hairs and say "I said "MY antagonist", etc, but
my message is the same: you are misconstruing why I encouraged you to
research people.)

First of all, what you are doing to Keenan, as much as you might not intend
it to be, IS a form of Cyberstalking. What makes it so is that your intent
is to cause him harm: in specific, you are trying to discredit or compromise
him by researching his previous posts and using what he said against him. If
he goes a single step further and asks you to cease, you are legally (in the
US, at least) required to do so. Otherwise, you can be reported to net.abuse
sites, and your Usenet priviledges will be revoked. There are many faqs out
there with advice on how to use Usenet and avoid common pitfalls like how to
avoid cyberstalking, how to avoid plagarizing people, when you can and
cannot repost what people have written (for example, you should not post
content of private emails to you), and how to conduct reasonable
conversations. It may SEEM like a people are arguing a certain way here, but
the truth is that you are crossing all sorts of lines regularly, and
apparently (I hope) not even knowing it. There is a great difference between
'researching' and 'cyberstalking'.

What you are intending to do seems reasonable on the surface: to find out
about who he is from his previous posts. But, as you said, with 9000+ posts
under his belt, taking a few phrases out of context is at best bad form, and
at worse, really really bad form. Now, in your defense, I will acknowledge
that this is a common thing to do with some things like Biblical references:
people go nuts over things like "In 5th Thessalations, chapter 9, verse 6,
subparagraph b, clause 6, the Great Poohbah used the word "OUT" instead of
"OUTSIDE", which clearly means that he is referring to....." etc etc.
But in usenet (and in real life), this type of nitpicking detail is pretty
obtruse and inaccurate. Someone could come in, and just from your own dozen
or so posts (note the difference: I'm guessing you have a dozen or so posts
which clearly means I have not spent the evening pouring over statistic
sites, trying to find out as much about you as possible to be used against
you in some argument, but instead am just tossing out a polite
conversational approximation...very different imagery, no?) Anyway, in your
own dozen or so posts, before you reconsidered your rocky arrival here,
there is PLENTY of harvestable fruit for someone to throw at you, in detail,
to win some lame argument later on. And if someone DID do that, you'd pretty
quickly see how offensive and especially how inaccurate it is.



I may be the fool, to think that there ever was, or still is hope for
a converstion with real content. But then this is the first time that
I have met you on this or any board, so this discussion has been more
of a curiosity to me than anything else. Cyberstalking, not a chance,
just getting my ducks in a line.

What makes Keenan tick? To get to know you as a person, not just an
impersonal post, disassociated from your environment, and all that you
contribute to that environment. I had no previous knowledge or
experience with you, so I researched. Next time, will be different.
Probably I will have to check out someone else. You will not be the
Belle of the Ball!


See, there it is again. You just crossed the line again: you are making a
'threat' (although you don't see it that way, I'm sure) to 'Cyberstalk'
someone else. Yes, you *should* research people: not knowing Wilko was from
outside the US was a stupid error on your part, especially as you flamed him
for something, assuming he was American. By 'research', I mean to learn
about people so you know who you are discussing, not to gather picayune
'ammo' to later throw at them to try to win some argument points. And
especially not to go LOOKING for ammo that fits whatever specific argument
that you are currently having. When you were accused of being 'contrary',
Keenan was trying to point out to you that you are doing all sorts of things
(here in rbp, at least) that are way contrary to convention and protocol,
and worse yet, you don't even know it. Your response was to continue doing
it.

And even more, you are doing the exact thing that you claim to despise in
the 'elite intellectual liberal': you are taking a small amount of
knowledge, accurate or not, and twisting it to serve your purpose, and
defiantly digging in with your point of view (in this case, your use of
quotations and your posting style).

You need to read some Usenet faqs, and you really ought to consider what you
are really here for. Its looking like you are trying to learn about arguing
on Usenet, but (maybe in typical ENTP style?) by creating your own set of
rules, roughly shaped on twisting the advice of others and your own
observations to your own advantage. All your discussions so far have the
same imagery to me, like seeing someone who is obviously new at something
standing in a crowd, yelling their own 'expert' opinion at the top of their
lungs, while pretty much everyone around them is rolling their eyes at the
newbie with the big ego and poor skills.

Just trying to help out; whatever point you are trying to make with Keenan
is lost in the noise.

YMMV.
--riverman

Hello riverman, I began to think that Keenan and I were the only ones
left here on this thread. Seems that others have been lurking for a
change.

I have been having a rather enlightening conversation with Keenan,
which started way back, over who knows what all. Initially, I did not
even choose to attempt to engage him, in that I found his responses to
posts by others such as Retter, to be rather shallow and contrary. In
order to carry on this conversation, I took your recommendation to
research who I was talking to, for you were the one who said, "Do you
know who you are talking to?" You take for granted your long term
posting relationship with each other, but I do not have that
advantage, so I researched in order to level the playing field, and
the mystery in some cases was only deepened.

I have, in addition to Keenan, gone back and read previous post by
most of the prolific posters, on both sides of the issue being
discussed, not just Keenan. I have also checked out other web info
where ever I could find it, including you, wilko, etter, Keenan, and a
few others. No love affair here at all for Keenan, or any, or all of
you, but curious as to your background that influenced your
perspective in the specific "US political" discussion, and
particularly your world view.

Specifically, I was curious about why a person like Keenan with his
professional and educational credentials would post such tripe. I was
also amazed by the sheer volume of his posting, not only on the RBP,
but throughout usenet, and other discussion groups as well. Personally
I would have preferred to have been discussing anything, with anyone
other than Keenan, but it was an enlightening process, and as far as I
am concerned, he can post whatever, where ever, when ever he wants. I
could care less!

In addition, I found that in some of the other forums, where he has
made a nuisance of himself, that there was even discussion of
restricting his usenet access for Excess Posting, and abusive
postings, described by one victim as rape. To me, and in defense of
Keenan, that seemed a bit strong a description. If a person is on the
net posting, they had better be prepared for the flacK. Even as I have
been dealt on this thread, though it is my first attempt to post to
the Google usenet group, while learning the rules, and the
personalities involved. I requested no special treatment or
consideration, though I appreciate any that you have extended.

I believe Keenan is responsible for the postings he has made. I was
interested in presenting him with the opportunity for a civil, and
productive conversation, as an opportunity for him to clarify and put
to rest any controversy or misunderstanding. In contrast to his
apparent proclivity to post contrary nonsense, I copied certain links,
single snippets etc. as documentation, which he implied were needed
for any claim on my part to be valid.

I am not an administrator of the group, nor does he owe me any sort of
official explanation. But I was curious as to what motivated him.
What made him tick? And in learning this, I would know how to respond
to any post of his that I come across in the future, and hopefully be
able to have a meaningful dialog. He was free to pull out of the
conversation at any time, however he continued to post his response.

The thread typically, strayed from the original topic as stated in
your original post. The original post itself was not directly germaine
to boating issues, except as to possibly the connection of paddling in
the wilderness. By the time Keenan and I got to the point of personal
conversation, most of the other poster had left, and the discussion
had deteriorated to a "he said/she said" conversation between Retter
and Keenan.

I encouraged Keenan, to step away from that discussion, and engage me
in something more productive. Since that time, Retter has not posted
any further to this thread. Leaving Keenan and I to discuss and
respond to each other as we each saw fit, and by this time the OT was
completely lost, so any topic was acceptable and appropriate, as long
as we both pursued it. He is a big boy, and could have pulled out at
any time. I also did not go to any other thread on this or any other
group to confront or contact Keenan in any way. I threatened no harm,
or personal contact in any way with him. Purely intellectual
curiosity, nothing more, nothing less. If he can't handle the heat,
get out of the kitchen!!


Working in the personal security field, and directly with law
enforcement, I understand the sensitivity of cyberstalking as far as
causing harm to anyone by using the internet, and certainly no harm
was intended. However through out the previous parts of the thread,
Keenan presented himself to me and to others as an agressive
antagonist. He has also done so in a majority of approx. 9000 post
that I found, though I did not check out all 9000. I definitely took a
sampling of those post and copied single snippets to the posting on
this thread, to give him opportunity to respond, to the documented
incidents of his previous posting style and how it impacted on the
discussion I thought we were trying to have. Any Info that I copied
and posted, was public info. and available for anyone to find. I did
not present this info for any reason but to allow him to refute, or
put in proper perspective as he chose.

He was free to post any example of his posting to demonstrate a more
ameniable style, which I would have been delighted to see and share. I
have said all along that I believe that he is capable of much more,
and throughly enjoyed his website, the pictures, and the vivid and
intellectually stimulating reports. If he could have just stuck to the
subject of paddling while on the RBP, I am sure there would never have
been this discussion! In my last post, I discussed his move to the
Ottawa waterfront, and how envious I am of him living with such an
abundance of navigatable water with such a beautiful back drop as the
area around Ottawa. And in his last post to me, he appeared to
sincerely appreciate my comments. It was actually a very civil
exchange.


There is no libel, and no cyberstalking here!! If I have hurt his
feelings, I will gladly apologize, and for those who are concerned, I
will not in the future respond to his post, unless he first responds
to mine. That should make him feel safe out there in cyberspace, at
least from me. And the rest of you can know that I will try to follow
the proper netiquette closer in the future, regarding copying your
previous, and embarrasing post to a current thread. Hopefully you all
can sleep better tonight as well, feeling safer from the past.

I do appreciate your guidance to the web site to reduce the size of
links, and will definitly check it out. Band width is an important
consideration, and it would seem to me that the greatest waste of band
width occurs with the continual nesting of conversation threads, that
are repeated ad naseum with each new response. Even with all the
snipping, and then the discussion really gets hard to follow and lends
itself to deception, and misleading the reader. I post on other
boards, and this is the first that I have run into this system. It is
not that hard to follow a conversation flows from one self contained
post to another, and you would save a massive amount of bandwidth.

Regarding other usenet policies, I will be studying them, and
observing your practices. I appreciate, and encourage your
instruction, and will eventually get this beast figured out, "yelling
their own 'expert' opinion," this is the real wild place!!!

Regards to Dave Van, Boatin'Buddy, and all, and it would help all us
newbies, if you would update your "Who Am I? How did I get here?"
That way, we could just go there, and not have to fish around all over
the net to get to know you. And that way you would also have more
input as to how the picture is painted.


KOS Tinkerntom, aka KnesisKnosis, Life, Live it!

"Tinkerntom" wrote in message
m...
Hello riverman, I began to think that Keenan and I were the only ones
left here on this thread. Seems that others have been lurking for a
change.


Not 'lurking'. Ignoring. Which is something you ought to consider.

rbp has had a recent period of nonuse from several trolls and abusers taking
over the conversations and driving everyone away. A few years ago it was
quite a lively place, with a lot of regulars who paddled together and
swapped lots of info and stories. Then a few 'dissonant personalities' came
around, and just mucked up the place enough that people slipped off to other
forums. Recently, there has been a slow migration back here, but I think the
jury is still out as to whether or not it will stick. Probably a few people
have already tossed in the towel, while more are using the time-honored
technique of not pitching in to a dead-end thread, waiting for it to die.
Unfortunately, the participants usually carry over their agendas onto other
threads, which is what happened previously and killed the group. Worse yet
is when they chase each other onto other groups. Personally, my own
involvement on this thread has been only to help you use this to 'work out
the kinks'. I got no dog in whatever fight you and Keenan are having, but
I'd like to see rbp innoculated from the new 'dissonant personalities' who
seem to have found each other.


I have been having a rather enlightening conversation with Keenan,
which started way back, over who knows what all. Initially, I did not
even choose to attempt to engage him, in that I found his responses to
posts by others such as Retter, to be rather shallow and contrary.

And the reason you felt you had to get involved was...?

In order to carry on this conversation, I took your recommendation to
research who I was talking to, for you were the one who said, "Do you
know who you are talking to?"

Yes, I know what I said.

You take for granted your long term
posting relationship with each other, but I do not have that
advantage, so I researched in order to level the playing field, and
the mystery in some cases was only deepened.

Well, yes and no. I don't know Keenan, or many other posters here, from
Adam, and to my knowledge have never had conversations with him. I'm
figuring him out from reading his posts, but he and I don't go 'way back'
like some other folks here. Certainly he seems to be a bit of a blowhard,
but then again, I have lots of friends who are blowhards. But the reality is
that, yes, many people here DO have long term posting relationships, and
many of us have even met IRL. You can't level that playing field. You have
to just be around long enough to join the clique.

But in the 'do you know who you are talking to' vein: keep in mind, as a
newbie who probably wants access to good information in the future and the
chance to make friendships, that among the regular posters and lurkers here
are olympic boating champions, industry giants in manufacturing,
world-famous outfitters, safety experts and guides, people who invented
half the stuff we are paddling, and up-and-coming boaters of all sizes and
flavors. Not to induce you to be paranoid, but you have come into the big
house....wipe your feet at the door and mind the fingerprints on the fine
china. And no farting in public.


I have, in addition to Keenan, gone back and read previous post by
most of the prolific posters, on both sides of the issue being
discussed, not just Keenan. I have also checked out other web info
where ever I could find it, including you, wilko, etter, Keenan, and a
few others. No love affair here at all for Keenan, or any, or all of
you, but curious as to your background that influenced your
perspective in the specific "US political" discussion, and
particularly your world view.

Good luck with that! :-) Figuring out someone's political perspective, and
the reasons therof, might be one of the toughest things to do even IRL! But
certainly the pursuit might teach you more about the people. In reality,
though, I think the history you create yourself WITH the people is the best
method of 'getting to know' someone. My knowledge of folks here is based
almost entirely on the history of our communication, as is theirs of me. I
think you might learn a LOT if you select someone (you're welcome to use me,
but my posts may be too old); someone who seems to be a good fit here, and
read their first month or so of posts. Just to see how they dealt with
conflict, what they came here looking for, how they were received, and how
they repaired toes they invariably stepped on, or got stepped upon. People
who come in with guns a-blazing, defining the rules and setting the
boundaries among people who already have defined boundaries, almost never
end up being ingratiated or appreciated. Often they get run off. And those
who insist that 'they have a right to be here' end up with the place all to
themselves. Usenet is a weird place that way. My other favorite hangout,
roff, would have chewed you up alive, spit you out and let the door slap you
on the ass on the way out within the hour. We're much more tolerant here,
lucky for you.


Specifically, I was curious about why a person like Keenan with his
professional and educational credentials would post such tripe. I was
also amazed by the sheer volume of his posting, not only on the RBP,
but throughout usenet, and other discussion groups as well. Personally
I would have preferred to have been discussing anything, with anyone
other than Keenan, but it was an enlightening process, and as far as I
am concerned, he can post whatever, where ever, when ever he wants. I
could care less!

In addition, I found that in some of the other forums, where he has
made a nuisance of himself, that there was even discussion of
restricting his usenet access for Excess Posting, and abusive
postings, described by one victim as rape. To me, and in defense of
Keenan, that seemed a bit strong a description. If a person is on the
net posting, they had better be prepared for the flacK. Even as I have
been dealt on this thread, though it is my first attempt to post to
the Google usenet group, while learning the rules, and the
personalities involved. I requested no special treatment or
consideration, though I appreciate any that you have extended.

You're welcome, but I'll be honest. I could care less if you end up being a
regular here or not....I just am doing my part to keep rbp alive again. But
you think you have gotten flak?? Try this out: You have no idea how tolerant
folks have been of your Liberal-bashing, patronizing, condescending, idiotic
gleeful pseudo-religious insufferable smugness. Personally, I think the vast
majority of people here are supporting Keenan in your little ****ing match,
hoping you'll take a hint and crawl off back under whatever rock you slid
out from. The messages I am hearing are that you should FOAD.

By the way, THAT is just a hint of 'flak'. And I'm just an amateur at it.

You, on the other hand, are about to launch off on your soapbox, telling all
of Usenet 'the rules' again. See below:


I believe Keenan is responsible for the postings he has made.....
(snip)

I am not an administrator of the group, nor does he owe me any sort of
official explanation....

(snip)
He was free to pull out of the
conversation at any time....

(snip)
I encouraged Keenan, to step away from that discussion, and engage me
in something more productive....

(snip)
... and by this time the OT was
completely lost, so any topic was acceptable and appropriate, as long
as we both pursued it....

(snip)
He is a big boy, and could have pulled out at
any time....

(snip)
I also did not go to any other thread on this or any other
group to confront or contact Keenan in any way....

(snip)
If he can't handle the heat,
get out of the kitchen!!

Umm, there you go making the rules again. Do some googling on 'net nannies'.
While you're at it, consider how much you are making ME into one! :-(

I'm going to sign out here...I've told you what I know. I'm not the net
administrator, either, and all this is IMHO, but I've managed to land on
this, and other groups on my feet without having to produce a masterpiece
thesis justifying myself.

My last piece of advice: keep it purely on topic for awhile. You've pretty
much established yourself as a bit of a blowhard, and folks are still
sussing out whether or not you even are interesting in boating, and what you
may possibly have to contribute. And stop pushing your thread....if it
floats, it floats. If not, there's a message to you in that. Sorry for the
reality, but welcome to Usenet.

--riverman

"riverman" wrote in message ...
"Tinkerntom" wrote in message
m...
Hello riverman, I began to think that Keenan and I were the only ones
left here on this thread. Seems that others have been lurking for a
change.


Not 'lurking'. Ignoring. Which is something you ought to consider.

rbp has had a recent period of nonuse from several trolls and abusers taking
over the conversations and driving everyone away. A few years ago it was
quite a lively place, with a lot of regulars who paddled together and
swapped lots of info and stories. Then a few 'dissonant personalities' came
around, and just mucked up the place enough that people slipped off to other
forums. Recently, there has been a slow migration back here, but I think the
jury is still out as to whether or not it will stick. Probably a few people
have already tossed in the towel, while more are using the time-honored
technique of not pitching in to a dead-end thread, waiting for it to die.
Unfortunately, the participants usually carry over their agendas onto other
threads, which is what happened previously and killed the group. Worse yet
is when they chase each other onto other groups. Personally, my own
involvement on this thread has been only to help you use this to 'work out
the kinks'. I got no dog in whatever fight you and Keenan are having, but
I'd like to see rbp innoculated from the new 'dissonant personalities' who
seem to have found each other.


I have been having a rather enlightening conversation with Keenan,
which started way back, over who knows what all. Initially, I did not
even choose to attempt to engage him, in that I found his responses to
posts by others such as Retter, to be rather shallow and contrary.

And the reason you felt you had to get involved was...?

In order to carry on this conversation, I took your recommendation to
research who I was talking to, for you were the one who said, "Do you
know who you are talking to?"

Yes, I know what I said.

You take for granted your long term
posting relationship with each other, but I do not have that
advantage, so I researched in order to level the playing field, and
the mystery in some cases was only deepened.

Well, yes and no. I don't know Keenan, or many other posters here, from
Adam, and to my knowledge have never had conversations with him. I'm
figuring him out from reading his posts, but he and I don't go 'way back'
like some other folks here. Certainly he seems to be a bit of a blowhard,
but then again, I have lots of friends who are blowhards. But the reality is
that, yes, many people here DO have long term posting relationships, and
many of us have even met IRL. You can't level that playing field. You have
to just be around long enough to join the clique.

But in the 'do you know who you are talking to' vein: keep in mind, as a
newbie who probably wants access to good information in the future and the
chance to make friendships, that among the regular posters and lurkers here
are olympic boating champions, industry giants in manufacturing,
world-famous outfitters, safety experts and guides, people who invented
half the stuff we are paddling, and up-and-coming boaters of all sizes and
flavors. Not to induce you to be paranoid, but you have come into the big
house....wipe your feet at the door and mind the fingerprints on the fine
china. And no farting in public.


I have, in addition to Keenan, gone back and read previous post by
most of the prolific posters, on both sides of the issue being
discussed, not just Keenan. I have also checked out other web info
where ever I could find it, including you, wilko, etter, Keenan, and a
few others. No love affair here at all for Keenan, or any, or all of
you, but curious as to your background that influenced your
perspective in the specific "US political" discussion, and
particularly your world view.

Good luck with that! :-) Figuring out someone's political perspective, and
the reasons therof, might be one of the toughest things to do even IRL! But
certainly the pursuit might teach you more about the people. In reality,
though, I think the history you create yourself WITH the people is the best
method of 'getting to know' someone. My knowledge of folks here is based
almost entirely on the history of our communication, as is theirs of me. I
think you might learn a LOT if you select someone (you're welcome to use me,
but my posts may be too old); someone who seems to be a good fit here, and
read their first month or so of posts. Just to see how they dealt with
conflict, what they came here looking for, how they were received, and how
they repaired toes they invariably stepped on, or got stepped upon. People
who come in with guns a-blazing, defining the rules and setting the
boundaries among people who already have defined boundaries, almost never
end up being ingratiated or appreciated. Often they get run off. And those
who insist that 'they have a right to be here' end up with the place all to
themselves. Usenet is a weird place that way. My other favorite hangout,
roff, would have chewed you up alive, spit you out and let the door slap you
on the ass on the way out within the hour. We're much more tolerant here,
lucky for you.


Specifically, I was curious about why a person like Keenan with his
professional and educational credentials would post such tripe. I was
also amazed by the sheer volume of his posting, not only on the RBP,
but throughout usenet, and other discussion groups as well. Personally
I would have preferred to have been discussing anything, with anyone
other than Keenan, but it was an enlightening process, and as far as I
am concerned, he can post whatever, where ever, when ever he wants. I
could care less!

In addition, I found that in some of the other forums, where he has
made a nuisance of himself, that there was even discussion of
restricting his usenet access for Excess Posting, and abusive
postings, described by one victim as rape. To me, and in defense of
Keenan, that seemed a bit strong a description. If a person is on the
net posting, they had better be prepared for the flacK. Even as I have
been dealt on this thread, though it is my first attempt to post to
the Google usenet group, while learning the rules, and the
personalities involved. I requested no special treatment or
consideration, though I appreciate any that you have extended.

You're welcome, but I'll be honest. I could care less if you end up being a
regular here or not....I just am doing my part to keep rbp alive again. But
you think you have gotten flak?? Try this out: You have no idea how tolerant
folks have been of your Liberal-bashing, patronizing, condescending, idiotic
gleeful pseudo-religious insufferable smugness. Personally, I think the vast
majority of people here are supporting Keenan in your little ****ing match,
hoping you'll take a hint and crawl off back under whatever rock you slid
out from. The messages I am hearing are that you should FOAD.

By the way, THAT is just a hint of 'flak'. And I'm just an amateur at it.

You, on the other hand, are about to launch off on your soapbox, telling all
of Usenet 'the rules' again. See below:


I believe Keenan is responsible for the postings he has made.....
(snip)

I am not an administrator of the group, nor does he owe me any sort of
official explanation....

(snip)
He was free to pull out of the
conversation at any time....

(snip)
I encouraged Keenan, to step away from that discussion, and engage me
in something more productive....

(snip)
... and by this time the OT was
completely lost, so any topic was acceptable and appropriate, as long
as we both pursued it....

(snip)
He is a big boy, and could have pulled out at
any time....

(snip)
I also did not go to any other thread on this or any other
group to confront or contact Keenan in any way....

(snip)
If he can't handle the heat,
get out of the kitchen!!

Umm, there you go making the rules again. Do some googling on 'net nannies'.
While you're at it, consider how much you are making ME into one! :-(

I'm going to sign out here...I've told you what I know. I'm not the net
administrator, either, and all this is IMHO, but I've managed to land on
this, and other groups on my feet without having to produce a masterpiece
thesis justifying myself.

My last piece of advice: keep it purely on topic for awhile. You've pretty
much established yourself as a bit of a blowhard, and folks are still
sussing out whether or not you even are interesting in boating, and what you
may possibly have to contribute. And stop pushing your thread....if it
floats, it floats. If not, there's a message to you in that. Sorry for the
reality, but welcome to Usenet.

--riverman

Hello again riverman, I appreciate your sincere and thoughtful
response. I decided not to snip or insert my comments in your
statement, and to let it stand in its present form unedited for the
time being.

I was one of those who came back, and desired a group that was
discussing boating issues. I found a group that seemed to be inclined
just to bash Bush. The bashing was going on long before I got here.
Some others most likely came as well and saw what was going on, and
left again. The apparent ascendency of the elite, Liberal perspective
turned off, and turned away many prospective memebers to the group.
Maybe you should think twice before posting OT post that just lead to
a morass of destruction.

I on the other hand, am not inclined to leave, nor to give way to
contrary positions, just to keep peace, as you and others well know.
Newbie, yes. Learning the rope, certainly. If I've stepped on some
toes, quick to apologize. If I've hurt someones feelings just because
I do not agree with them, tough!

The bashing and trashing had nothing to do with paddling, or for that
matter the wilderness, or the environment. I have a long standing post
that has yet to be responded to on this thread, that was posted
directly to the OP. It strayed from the political bashing, and offered
a discussion about our individual love and respect of the wilderness.
Apparently no one here really wanted to talk about that, they just
wanted to bash Bush. There are other groups that offer a political
free for all, that if someone is so inclined, they are welcome to go
and post whatever they choose, and the playing field is level, and
everyone know the rules, and still choose to be there. If my post was
ignored, because I was not a member of the elite clique, then it
stands as a monument to the true interest and intentions of the
clique. If it still ignored, after we have gotten to know each other,
then it still is a monument to the clique, and sadly its eventual
demise.

I sincerely respect you and others, as elite paddlers, and cherish
your experience, stories, and input. Your elite status, does not
necessarily carry over to OT subjects. Nor was I willing to get
involved in the sword drawing contest, my sword is sharper than yours.
I came here to talk boating, not to listen to debates, and
dissertations about the political arena. I did not try to compare my
data, details and statistics with yours.

There is another thread, "Stupid, S.......Americans" which I have
specifically chosen not to get involved in. A discussion like this,
out beside the river, or over a beer, between three buddies, can be
lots of fun, where you know and respect each other. Bringing it into
a public forum is crass, and especially if OT. Why would any American
want to join this group to be abused by the clique?

I also respect your desire, which I believe is sincere, for the RBP to
be a dynamic healthy community of paddlers, that love to talk about
boating, and our own foopahs. I am more than willing to assist in
making this happen. I posted, "Who am I, Where did I come from?" to
help identify members and define community. I went so far as to expose
my own bio and vulnerabilities. However if the community is a closed
clique to which you have to be initiated, I would expect that could be
a big reason that the general boating public wants to have little to
do with it. Nothing turns off most Americans than the exclusive
country club elite mentality, unless of course they are the ones
inside the country club! Neither is it an exclusive realm of
Americans, and I feel fortunate to have had my herizon broadened
already with the limited contact I have had with "foreigners, and
those with a different world view." This definitely includes you, who
only a short time ago was a total stranger, and now we have gotten to
know each other a little better, and you are an American.

I have posted to some other boating related threads in this group, and
tried to stay on topic, with some color added, and I made no attempt
to take over the thread. I am not opposed to personal color, and non
threatening jabs, in good fun. In my research, I have observed how
certain individuals, to remain unnamed, have taken over threads as
evidenced in this group, and documented in my recent post, and others.
I understand how this would kill the thread. I have not carried the
conversation of this thread beyond this thread, with in this group,or
to any other group.

If there is any ignoring going on here or on my post on the other
threads, it is by the same elitist clique who control the group
dynamic. Again, why would most any new member be willing to run the
gauntlet, to achieve the approval of a few elite snobs. I was done
with that in highschool. If I say something, that is wrong, instruct
me; If I say something that is funny, laugh; but if you ignore me, you
are showing a whole lot of others that they will be ignored as well.
Most of them will just go somewhere else. It will be your party, but
you will be dancing with yourselves.

I do not believe that I am making the rules, but attempting to define
them for myself, and apply them equally. I will check out "Net
Nannies", no time right now.

In the meantime, I encourage you to be one of the first to update your
bio on "Who am I? Where did I come from?" I think it was called
Detente - openess. Show me and other prospective new members that this
is not a exclusive club with a secret membership, but instead all are
welcome to participate and maybe even make a few mistakes, even if all
you paddle is a Folbot!

If I am a blowhard, now you know it. Don't put so much on my plate at
one time, and cut it up real small!

Respectfully Tinkerntom, aka Knesisknosis, Life, Live it!

"Tinkerntom" wrote in message
...

Hello again riverman, I appreciate your sincere and thoughtful
response. I decided not to snip or insert my comments in your
statement, and to let it stand in its present form unedited for the
time being.

Well, that was bad form. Delete stuff you aren't directly replying to.


I was one of those who came back, and desired a group that was
discussing boating issues. I found a group that seemed to be inclined
just to bash Bush. The bashing was going on long before I got here.
Some others most likely came as well and saw what was going on, and
left again. The apparent ascendency of the elite, Liberal perspective
turned off, and turned away many prospective memebers to the group.
Maybe you should think twice before posting OT post that just lead to
a morass of destruction.

Man, you ARE one piece of work! If you truly have no idea how revolting and
inflammatory that statement is, then you are hopeless. In fact, if you DO
have an idea of how revolting and inflammatory that statement is, then you
are hopeless.

EOT for me; I know a waste of time when I see it. Good luck making friends.
Let us know how it goes.

--riverman

How big a hat do you have to wear to contain your bloated ego? Is it made of
tinfoil?

Thanks for the laughs, Tinerntom!

Life! Not really a wholesome cereal!

"Tinkerntom" wrote in message
m...
Hello riverman, I began to think that Keenan and I were the only ones
left here on this thread. Seems that others have been lurking for a
change.

I have been having a rather enlightening conversation with Keenan,
which started way back, over who knows what all. Initially, I did not
even choose to attempt to engage him, in that I found his responses to
posts by others such as Retter, to be rather shallow and contrary. In
order to carry on this conversation, I took your recommendation to
research who I was talking to, for you were the one who said, "Do you
know who you are talking to?" You take for granted your long term
posting relationship with each other, but I do not have that
advantage, so I researched in order to level the playing field, and
the mystery in some cases was only deepened.

I have, in addition to Keenan, gone back and read previous post by
most of the prolific posters, on both sides of the issue being
discussed, not just Keenan. I have also checked out other web info
where ever I could find it, including you, wilko, etter, Keenan, and a
few others. No love affair here at all for Keenan, or any, or all of
you, but curious as to your background that influenced your
perspective in the specific "US political" discussion, and
particularly your world view.

Specifically, I was curious about why a person like Keenan with his
professional and educational credentials would post such tripe. I was
also amazed by the sheer volume of his posting, not only on the RBP,
but throughout usenet, and other discussion groups as well. Personally
I would have preferred to have been discussing anything, with anyone
other than Keenan, but it was an enlightening process, and as far as I
am concerned, he can post whatever, where ever, when ever he wants. I
could care less!

In addition, I found that in some of the other forums, where he has
made a nuisance of himself, that there was even discussion of
restricting his usenet access for Excess Posting, and abusive
postings, described by one victim as rape. To me, and in defense of
Keenan, that seemed a bit strong a description. If a person is on the
net posting, they had better be prepared for the flacK. Even as I have
been dealt on this thread, though it is my first attempt to post to
the Google usenet group, while learning the rules, and the
personalities involved. I requested no special treatment or
consideration, though I appreciate any that you have extended.

I believe Keenan is responsible for the postings he has made. I was
interested in presenting him with the opportunity for a civil, and
productive conversation, as an opportunity for him to clarify and put
to rest any controversy or misunderstanding. In contrast to his
apparent proclivity to post contrary nonsense, I copied certain links,
single snippets etc. as documentation, which he implied were needed
for any claim on my part to be valid.

I am not an administrator of the group, nor does he owe me any sort of
official explanation. But I was curious as to what motivated him.
What made him tick? And in learning this, I would know how to respond
to any post of his that I come across in the future, and hopefully be
able to have a meaningful dialog. He was free to pull out of the
conversation at any time, however he continued to post his response.

The thread typically, strayed from the original topic as stated in
your original post. The original post itself was not directly germaine
to boating issues, except as to possibly the connection of paddling in
the wilderness. By the time Keenan and I got to the point of personal
conversation, most of the other poster had left, and the discussion
had deteriorated to a "he said/she said" conversation between Retter
and Keenan.

I encouraged Keenan, to step away from that discussion, and engage me
in something more productive. Since that time, Retter has not posted
any further to this thread. Leaving Keenan and I to discuss and
respond to each other as we each saw fit, and by this time the OT was
completely lost, so any topic was acceptable and appropriate, as long
as we both pursued it. He is a big boy, and could have pulled out at
any time. I also did not go to any other thread on this or any other
group to confront or contact Keenan in any way. I threatened no harm,
or personal contact in any way with him. Purely intellectual
curiosity, nothing more, nothing less. If he can't handle the heat,
get out of the kitchen!!


Working in the personal security field, and directly with law
enforcement, I understand the sensitivity of cyberstalking as far as
causing harm to anyone by using the internet, and certainly no harm
was intended. However through out the previous parts of the thread,
Keenan presented himself to me and to others as an agressive
antagonist. He has also done so in a majority of approx. 9000 post
that I found, though I did not check out all 9000. I definitely took a
sampling of those post and copied single snippets to the posting on
this thread, to give him opportunity to respond, to the documented
incidents of his previous posting style and how it impacted on the
discussion I thought we were trying to have. Any Info that I copied
and posted, was public info. and available for anyone to find. I did
not present this info for any reason but to allow him to refute, or
put in proper perspective as he chose.

He was free to post any example of his posting to demonstrate a more
ameniable style, which I would have been delighted to see and share. I
have said all along that I believe that he is capable of much more,
and throughly enjoyed his website, the pictures, and the vivid and
intellectually stimulating reports. If he could have just stuck to the
subject of paddling while on the RBP, I am sure there would never have
been this discussion! In my last post, I discussed his move to the
Ottawa waterfront, and how envious I am of him living with such an
abundance of navigatable water with such a beautiful back drop as the
area around Ottawa. And in his last post to me, he appeared to
sincerely appreciate my comments. It was actually a very civil
exchange.


There is no libel, and no cyberstalking here!! If I have hurt his
feelings, I will gladly apologize, and for those who are concerned, I
will not in the future respond to his post, unless he first responds
to mine. That should make him feel safe out there in cyberspace, at
least from me. And the rest of you can know that I will try to follow
the proper netiquette closer in the future, regarding copying your
previous, and embarrasing post to a current thread. Hopefully you all
can sleep better tonight as well, feeling safer from the past.

I do appreciate your guidance to the web site to reduce the size of
links, and will definitly check it out. Band width is an important
consideration, and it would seem to me that the greatest waste of band
width occurs with the continual nesting of conversation threads, that
are repeated ad naseum with each new response. Even with all the
snipping, and then the discussion really gets hard to follow and lends
itself to deception, and misleading the reader. I post on other
boards, and this is the first that I have run into this system. It is
not that hard to follow a conversation flows from one self contained
post to another, and you would save a massive amount of bandwidth.

Regarding other usenet policies, I will be studying them, and
observing your practices. I appreciate, and encourage your
instruction, and will eventually get this beast figured out, "yelling
their own 'expert' opinion," this is the real wild place!!!

Regards to Dave Van, Boatin'Buddy, and all, and it would help all us
newbies, if you would update your "Who Am I? How did I get here?"
That way, we could just go there, and not have to fish around all over
the net to get to know you. And that way you would also have more
input as to how the picture is painted.


KOS Tinkerntom, aka KnesisKnosis, Life, Live it!

"Tinkerntom" wrote in message
m...
I believe Keenan is responsible for the postings he has made.

Did Keenan ever say he wasn't?

In contrast to his apparent proclivity to post contrary nonsense

Contary to.....you.

And that's clearly where the problem lies here.

I copied certain links, single snippets etc. as documentation, which he
implied were needed for any claim on my part to be valid.

Posting snippets from conversations I've been having with people over the
course (in some cases) of several years on usenet tells you nothing about
my character, and is irrelevant to whatever "claims" you have made.

The folly of your strategy can be clearly illustrated with two of the links
that you posted.

http://www.geocities.com/flamingpoul...kmanonlost.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/flamingpoul...manonlost2.jpg

In what way do those links - which YOU posted - support any of your claims,
Tinkerntom?

Be honest with yourself, Tinkerntom.

You didn't like it that I disagreed with your views, and you went on an
old-fashioned low-down dirty-dog character assassination. You crawled in the
mud, and now you stink. And shame on you!

Understand, Tinkerntom, that your mud-slinging doesn't bother me a bit. And
no, it's not just because you did such a lousy job of it and only served to
humiliate yourself. It's because I've got nothing to hide.

Your mud-slinging doesn't say a lot about me.

But it says a lot about YOU that you felt the need to do that.

If it was really just about educating yourself, you wouldn't have attempted
a public character assassination. You would simply have absorbed the
information and let it shape your future communications with me. But that's
not what you did, Tinkerntom, and you know it. You were hurt, so you lashed
out.

Be honest with yourself, Tinkerntom. This is not about me. It's about you.