"riverman" wrote in message ...
"Tinkerntom" wrote in message
m...
Hello riverman, I began to think that Keenan and I were the only ones
left here on this thread. Seems that others have been lurking for a
change.


Not 'lurking'. Ignoring. Which is something you ought to consider.

rbp has had a recent period of nonuse from several trolls and abusers taking
over the conversations and driving everyone away. A few years ago it was
quite a lively place, with a lot of regulars who paddled together and
swapped lots of info and stories. Then a few 'dissonant personalities' came
around, and just mucked up the place enough that people slipped off to other
forums. Recently, there has been a slow migration back here, but I think the
jury is still out as to whether or not it will stick. Probably a few people
have already tossed in the towel, while more are using the time-honored
technique of not pitching in to a dead-end thread, waiting for it to die.
Unfortunately, the participants usually carry over their agendas onto other
threads, which is what happened previously and killed the group. Worse yet
is when they chase each other onto other groups. Personally, my own
involvement on this thread has been only to help you use this to 'work out
the kinks'. I got no dog in whatever fight you and Keenan are having, but
I'd like to see rbp innoculated from the new 'dissonant personalities' who
seem to have found each other.


I have been having a rather enlightening conversation with Keenan,
which started way back, over who knows what all. Initially, I did not
even choose to attempt to engage him, in that I found his responses to
posts by others such as Retter, to be rather shallow and contrary.

And the reason you felt you had to get involved was...?

In order to carry on this conversation, I took your recommendation to
research who I was talking to, for you were the one who said, "Do you
know who you are talking to?"

Yes, I know what I said.

You take for granted your long term
posting relationship with each other, but I do not have that
advantage, so I researched in order to level the playing field, and
the mystery in some cases was only deepened.

Well, yes and no. I don't know Keenan, or many other posters here, from
Adam, and to my knowledge have never had conversations with him. I'm
figuring him out from reading his posts, but he and I don't go 'way back'
like some other folks here. Certainly he seems to be a bit of a blowhard,
but then again, I have lots of friends who are blowhards. But the reality is
that, yes, many people here DO have long term posting relationships, and
many of us have even met IRL. You can't level that playing field. You have
to just be around long enough to join the clique.

But in the 'do you know who you are talking to' vein: keep in mind, as a
newbie who probably wants access to good information in the future and the
chance to make friendships, that among the regular posters and lurkers here
are olympic boating champions, industry giants in manufacturing,
world-famous outfitters, safety experts and guides, people who invented
half the stuff we are paddling, and up-and-coming boaters of all sizes and
flavors. Not to induce you to be paranoid, but you have come into the big
house....wipe your feet at the door and mind the fingerprints on the fine
china. And no farting in public.


I have, in addition to Keenan, gone back and read previous post by
most of the prolific posters, on both sides of the issue being
discussed, not just Keenan. I have also checked out other web info
where ever I could find it, including you, wilko, etter, Keenan, and a
few others. No love affair here at all for Keenan, or any, or all of
you, but curious as to your background that influenced your
perspective in the specific "US political" discussion, and
particularly your world view.

Good luck with that! :-) Figuring out someone's political perspective, and
the reasons therof, might be one of the toughest things to do even IRL! But
certainly the pursuit might teach you more about the people. In reality,
though, I think the history you create yourself WITH the people is the best
method of 'getting to know' someone. My knowledge of folks here is based
almost entirely on the history of our communication, as is theirs of me. I
think you might learn a LOT if you select someone (you're welcome to use me,
but my posts may be too old); someone who seems to be a good fit here, and
read their first month or so of posts. Just to see how they dealt with
conflict, what they came here looking for, how they were received, and how
they repaired toes they invariably stepped on, or got stepped upon. People
who come in with guns a-blazing, defining the rules and setting the
boundaries among people who already have defined boundaries, almost never
end up being ingratiated or appreciated. Often they get run off. And those
who insist that 'they have a right to be here' end up with the place all to
themselves. Usenet is a weird place that way. My other favorite hangout,
roff, would have chewed you up alive, spit you out and let the door slap you
on the ass on the way out within the hour. We're much more tolerant here,
lucky for you.


Specifically, I was curious about why a person like Keenan with his
professional and educational credentials would post such tripe. I was
also amazed by the sheer volume of his posting, not only on the RBP,
but throughout usenet, and other discussion groups as well. Personally
I would have preferred to have been discussing anything, with anyone
other than Keenan, but it was an enlightening process, and as far as I
am concerned, he can post whatever, where ever, when ever he wants. I
could care less!

In addition, I found that in some of the other forums, where he has
made a nuisance of himself, that there was even discussion of
restricting his usenet access for Excess Posting, and abusive
postings, described by one victim as rape. To me, and in defense of
Keenan, that seemed a bit strong a description. If a person is on the
net posting, they had better be prepared for the flacK. Even as I have
been dealt on this thread, though it is my first attempt to post to
the Google usenet group, while learning the rules, and the
personalities involved. I requested no special treatment or
consideration, though I appreciate any that you have extended.

You're welcome, but I'll be honest. I could care less if you end up being a
regular here or not....I just am doing my part to keep rbp alive again. But
you think you have gotten flak?? Try this out: You have no idea how tolerant
folks have been of your Liberal-bashing, patronizing, condescending, idiotic
gleeful pseudo-religious insufferable smugness. Personally, I think the vast
majority of people here are supporting Keenan in your little ****ing match,
hoping you'll take a hint and crawl off back under whatever rock you slid
out from. The messages I am hearing are that you should FOAD.

By the way, THAT is just a hint of 'flak'. And I'm just an amateur at it.

You, on the other hand, are about to launch off on your soapbox, telling all
of Usenet 'the rules' again. See below:


I believe Keenan is responsible for the postings he has made.....
(snip)

I am not an administrator of the group, nor does he owe me any sort of
official explanation....

(snip)
He was free to pull out of the
conversation at any time....

(snip)
I encouraged Keenan, to step away from that discussion, and engage me
in something more productive....

(snip)
... and by this time the OT was
completely lost, so any topic was acceptable and appropriate, as long
as we both pursued it....

(snip)
He is a big boy, and could have pulled out at
any time....

(snip)
I also did not go to any other thread on this or any other
group to confront or contact Keenan in any way....

(snip)
If he can't handle the heat,
get out of the kitchen!!

Umm, there you go making the rules again. Do some googling on 'net nannies'.
While you're at it, consider how much you are making ME into one! :-(

I'm going to sign out here...I've told you what I know. I'm not the net
administrator, either, and all this is IMHO, but I've managed to land on
this, and other groups on my feet without having to produce a masterpiece
thesis justifying myself.

My last piece of advice: keep it purely on topic for awhile. You've pretty
much established yourself as a bit of a blowhard, and folks are still
sussing out whether or not you even are interesting in boating, and what you
may possibly have to contribute. And stop pushing your thread....if it
floats, it floats. If not, there's a message to you in that. Sorry for the
reality, but welcome to Usenet.

--riverman

Hello again riverman, I appreciate your sincere and thoughtful
response. I decided not to snip or insert my comments in your
statement, and to let it stand in its present form unedited for the
time being.

I was one of those who came back, and desired a group that was
discussing boating issues. I found a group that seemed to be inclined
just to bash Bush. The bashing was going on long before I got here.
Some others most likely came as well and saw what was going on, and
left again. The apparent ascendency of the elite, Liberal perspective
turned off, and turned away many prospective memebers to the group.
Maybe you should think twice before posting OT post that just lead to
a morass of destruction.

I on the other hand, am not inclined to leave, nor to give way to
contrary positions, just to keep peace, as you and others well know.
Newbie, yes. Learning the rope, certainly. If I've stepped on some
toes, quick to apologize. If I've hurt someones feelings just because
I do not agree with them, tough!

The bashing and trashing had nothing to do with paddling, or for that
matter the wilderness, or the environment. I have a long standing post
that has yet to be responded to on this thread, that was posted
directly to the OP. It strayed from the political bashing, and offered
a discussion about our individual love and respect of the wilderness.
Apparently no one here really wanted to talk about that, they just
wanted to bash Bush. There are other groups that offer a political
free for all, that if someone is so inclined, they are welcome to go
and post whatever they choose, and the playing field is level, and
everyone know the rules, and still choose to be there. If my post was
ignored, because I was not a member of the elite clique, then it
stands as a monument to the true interest and intentions of the
clique. If it still ignored, after we have gotten to know each other,
then it still is a monument to the clique, and sadly its eventual
demise.

I sincerely respect you and others, as elite paddlers, and cherish
your experience, stories, and input. Your elite status, does not
necessarily carry over to OT subjects. Nor was I willing to get
involved in the sword drawing contest, my sword is sharper than yours.
I came here to talk boating, not to listen to debates, and
dissertations about the political arena. I did not try to compare my
data, details and statistics with yours.

There is another thread, "Stupid, S.......Americans" which I have
specifically chosen not to get involved in. A discussion like this,
out beside the river, or over a beer, between three buddies, can be
lots of fun, where you know and respect each other. Bringing it into
a public forum is crass, and especially if OT. Why would any American
want to join this group to be abused by the clique?

I also respect your desire, which I believe is sincere, for the RBP to
be a dynamic healthy community of paddlers, that love to talk about
boating, and our own foopahs. I am more than willing to assist in
making this happen. I posted, "Who am I, Where did I come from?" to
help identify members and define community. I went so far as to expose
my own bio and vulnerabilities. However if the community is a closed
clique to which you have to be initiated, I would expect that could be
a big reason that the general boating public wants to have little to
do with it. Nothing turns off most Americans than the exclusive
country club elite mentality, unless of course they are the ones
inside the country club! Neither is it an exclusive realm of
Americans, and I feel fortunate to have had my herizon broadened
already with the limited contact I have had with "foreigners, and
those with a different world view." This definitely includes you, who
only a short time ago was a total stranger, and now we have gotten to
know each other a little better, and you are an American.

I have posted to some other boating related threads in this group, and
tried to stay on topic, with some color added, and I made no attempt
to take over the thread. I am not opposed to personal color, and non
threatening jabs, in good fun. In my research, I have observed how
certain individuals, to remain unnamed, have taken over threads as
evidenced in this group, and documented in my recent post, and others.
I understand how this would kill the thread. I have not carried the
conversation of this thread beyond this thread, with in this group,or
to any other group.

If there is any ignoring going on here or on my post on the other
threads, it is by the same elitist clique who control the group
dynamic. Again, why would most any new member be willing to run the
gauntlet, to achieve the approval of a few elite snobs. I was done
with that in highschool. If I say something, that is wrong, instruct
me; If I say something that is funny, laugh; but if you ignore me, you
are showing a whole lot of others that they will be ignored as well.
Most of them will just go somewhere else. It will be your party, but
you will be dancing with yourselves.

I do not believe that I am making the rules, but attempting to define
them for myself, and apply them equally. I will check out "Net
Nannies", no time right now.

In the meantime, I encourage you to be one of the first to update your
bio on "Who am I? Where did I come from?" I think it was called
Detente - openess. Show me and other prospective new members that this
is not a exclusive club with a secret membership, but instead all are
welcome to participate and maybe even make a few mistakes, even if all
you paddle is a Folbot!

If I am a blowhard, now you know it. Don't put so much on my plate at
one time, and cut it up real small!

Respectfully Tinkerntom, aka Knesisknosis, Life, Live it!