As a precaution I have made digital pictures of every part that I took out
and what strikes me now is that I've initially missed some watermarks on the
intake's reverse side. I'm quite sure, after reexamining pictures that an
intake is my problem but unfortunately I couldn't previously remove the
intake's bottom shield to be 100% certain. It was riveted to the intake's
bottom part. Intake's gasket looked good enough to eliminate it as a
possibility.


"Calif Bill" wrote in message
k.net...


"Paul" wrote in message
.rogers.com...
The problem with pressure test is that it won't show the leak placement
if
I'm correct. It would be a great after-repair confirmation that
everything
is OK though, especially in comparison with the initial one. I have no
testing equip. and can't take the boat to the repair shop (boat is on
blocks
now). I've put the engine back together after replacing both head
gaskets
and it failed the probe miserably so I have to revisit the issue again.



"Calif Bill" wrote in message
nk.net...

"rmcinnis" wrote in message
...

"Paul" wrote in message

. cable.rogers.com...
After taking the boat out just a few times this your I couldn't
crank
the
engine anymore. Replaced the starter, removed all spark plugs,
cranked
and
fount all cylinders in a 5L V8 OMC 305 engine flooded.

Does this mean that water came out of all 8 cylinders after yo had
removed
the plugs?

Since all 8 cyl. were
flooded at the same time with fresh water I do not suspect
exhaust.
(verified by creating a closed loop coolant system and eliminating
exhaust
altogether).

I am not sure what you mean here. How does creating a closed loop
cooling
eliminate the exhaust? Did you create a closed loop cooling system,
run
the
motor and have all 8 cylinders fill with water again?

When you ran the motor this way, did you not have any water running
through
the exhaust system?

My suspect is a leak between cooling passages and cylinders
intakes
in the intake manifold. Can't also imagine how a cracked block
would
flood
all 8 cyl. at once.

If I understand the situation properly it doesn't sound like the
water
enters the cylinder(s) while the engine is running, but rather after
the
engine is shut down. If you get water into one cylinder it is easy
for
it
to migrate to the other cylinders, all it takes is for the intake
valve
to
be open. The water will flow from the flooded cylinder up into the
intake
manifold. At least one other intake valve will be open at the same
time
which means it will flood also. When you crank the engine the
remaining
cylinders will draw in any water remaining in the intake manifold
and
they
will flood as well.

You apparently have a leak between the water jacket and either a
cylinder
directly or into the intake manifold. This could be from a gasket
failure,
either the head gasket (fairly common failure) or the intake
manifold
gasket
(pretty rare, but certainly possible). If the failure is in the head
gasket
a compression check should show which cylinder is the problem.

If the problem is not a gasket then I would bet that the intake
manifold
has
rusted through to the cooling system. If you still have your
"closed
system" rigged up try pressurizing it and seeing if it holds
pressure.
This
is a standard test on radiator systems, and you can purchase a small
pump
and pressure guage that installs in place of the radiator cap for
this
purpose. The cooling system should be able to hold 13 PSI without
any
significant loss.

Rod



Cheaper to take the boat to someone to do the pressure test. It is
about
$135 for the radiator pressure tester. They have been making these
things
for 50 years, and the price is still way to high.





Did you have the heads machined when replacing gaskets? Sometimes the
angle
between the head and the intake changes enough that the intake does not
seal
to the heads. Pull the intake and look at the gasket to see if it is
compressed all over. Auto parts stores do rent tools and you may be able
to
rent a pressure checker.

"Calif Bill" wrote in message ink.net...
"rmcinnis" wrote in message
...

"Paul" wrote in message
. cable.rogers.com...
After taking the boat out just a few times this your I couldn't crank
the
engine anymore. Replaced the starter, removed all spark plugs, cranked
and
fount all cylinders in a 5L V8 OMC 305 engine flooded.

Does this mean that water came out of all 8 cylinders after yo had removed
the plugs?

Since all 8 cyl. were
flooded at the same time with fresh water I do not suspect exhaust.
(verified by creating a closed loop coolant system and eliminating
exhaust
altogether).

I am not sure what you mean here. How does creating a closed loop cooling
eliminate the exhaust? Did you create a closed loop cooling system, run
the
motor and have all 8 cylinders fill with water again?

When you ran the motor this way, did you not have any water running
through
the exhaust system?

My suspect is a leak between cooling passages and cylinders intakes
in the intake manifold. Can't also imagine how a cracked block would
flood
all 8 cyl. at once.

If I understand the situation properly it doesn't sound like the water
enters the cylinder(s) while the engine is running, but rather after the
engine is shut down. If you get water into one cylinder it is easy for it
to migrate to the other cylinders, all it takes is for the intake valve to
be open. The water will flow from the flooded cylinder up into the intake
manifold. At least one other intake valve will be open at the same time
which means it will flood also. When you crank the engine the remaining
cylinders will draw in any water remaining in the intake manifold and they
will flood as well.

You apparently have a leak between the water jacket and either a cylinder
directly or into the intake manifold. This could be from a gasket failure,
either the head gasket (fairly common failure) or the intake manifold
gasket
(pretty rare, but certainly possible). If the failure is in the head
gasket
a compression check should show which cylinder is the problem.

If the problem is not a gasket then I would bet that the intake manifold
has
rusted through to the cooling system. If you still have your "closed
system" rigged up try pressurizing it and seeing if it holds pressure.
This
is a standard test on radiator systems, and you can purchase a small pump
and pressure guage that installs in place of the radiator cap for this
purpose. The cooling system should be able to hold 13 PSI without any
significant loss.

Rod



Cheaper to take the boat to someone to do the pressure test. It is about
$135 for the radiator pressure tester. They have been making these things
for 50 years, and the price is still way to high.

Why? All you need is a non-relieving cap with 1/4" nipple, available
at NAPA for less than $10, a low pressure gauge, and your air
compressor, even the little tiny ones will work.

"basskisser" wrote in message
om...
"Calif Bill" wrote in message
ink.net...
"rmcinnis" wrote in message
...

"Paul" wrote in message
. cable.rogers.com...
After taking the boat out just a few times this your I couldn't
crank
the
engine anymore. Replaced the starter, removed all spark plugs,
cranked
and
fount all cylinders in a 5L V8 OMC 305 engine flooded.

Does this mean that water came out of all 8 cylinders after yo had
removed
the plugs?

Since all 8 cyl. were
flooded at the same time with fresh water I do not suspect exhaust.
(verified by creating a closed loop coolant system and eliminating
exhaust
altogether).

I am not sure what you mean here. How does creating a closed loop
cooling
eliminate the exhaust? Did you create a closed loop cooling system,
run
the
motor and have all 8 cylinders fill with water again?

When you ran the motor this way, did you not have any water running
through
the exhaust system?

My suspect is a leak between cooling passages and cylinders intakes
in the intake manifold. Can't also imagine how a cracked block would
flood
all 8 cyl. at once.

If I understand the situation properly it doesn't sound like the water
enters the cylinder(s) while the engine is running, but rather after
the
engine is shut down. If you get water into one cylinder it is easy
for it
to migrate to the other cylinders, all it takes is for the intake
valve to
be open. The water will flow from the flooded cylinder up into the
intake
manifold. At least one other intake valve will be open at the same
time
which means it will flood also. When you crank the engine the
remaining
cylinders will draw in any water remaining in the intake manifold and
they
will flood as well.

You apparently have a leak between the water jacket and either a
cylinder
directly or into the intake manifold. This could be from a gasket
failure,
either the head gasket (fairly common failure) or the intake manifold
gasket
(pretty rare, but certainly possible). If the failure is in the head
gasket
a compression check should show which cylinder is the problem.

If the problem is not a gasket then I would bet that the intake
manifold
has
rusted through to the cooling system. If you still have your "closed
system" rigged up try pressurizing it and seeing if it holds pressure.
This
is a standard test on radiator systems, and you can purchase a small
pump
and pressure guage that installs in place of the radiator cap for this
purpose. The cooling system should be able to hold 13 PSI without any
significant loss.

Rod



Cheaper to take the boat to someone to do the pressure test. It is
about
$135 for the radiator pressure tester. They have been making these
things
for 50 years, and the price is still way to high.

Why? All you need is a non-relieving cap with 1/4" nipple, available
at NAPA for less than $10, a low pressure gauge, and your air
compressor, even the little tiny ones will work.

Some people like to use the tool designed for the job. For less than $10
and no time expended, you can rent the tool.

"Calif Bill" wrote in message link.net...
"basskisser" wrote in message
om...
"Calif Bill" wrote in message
ink.net...
"rmcinnis" wrote in message
...

"Paul" wrote in message
. cable.rogers.com...
After taking the boat out just a few times this your I couldn't
crank
the
engine anymore. Replaced the starter, removed all spark plugs,
cranked
and
fount all cylinders in a 5L V8 OMC 305 engine flooded.

Does this mean that water came out of all 8 cylinders after yo had
removed
the plugs?

Since all 8 cyl. were
flooded at the same time with fresh water I do not suspect exhaust.
(verified by creating a closed loop coolant system and eliminating
exhaust
altogether).

I am not sure what you mean here. How does creating a closed loop
cooling
eliminate the exhaust? Did you create a closed loop cooling system,
run
the
motor and have all 8 cylinders fill with water again?

When you ran the motor this way, did you not have any water running
through
the exhaust system?

My suspect is a leak between cooling passages and cylinders intakes
in the intake manifold. Can't also imagine how a cracked block would
flood
all 8 cyl. at once.

If I understand the situation properly it doesn't sound like the water
enters the cylinder(s) while the engine is running, but rather after
the
engine is shut down. If you get water into one cylinder it is easy
for it
to migrate to the other cylinders, all it takes is for the intake
valve to
be open. The water will flow from the flooded cylinder up into the
intake
manifold. At least one other intake valve will be open at the same
time
which means it will flood also. When you crank the engine the
remaining
cylinders will draw in any water remaining in the intake manifold and
they
will flood as well.

You apparently have a leak between the water jacket and either a
cylinder
directly or into the intake manifold. This could be from a gasket
failure,
either the head gasket (fairly common failure) or the intake manifold
gasket
(pretty rare, but certainly possible). If the failure is in the head
gasket
a compression check should show which cylinder is the problem.

If the problem is not a gasket then I would bet that the intake
manifold
has
rusted through to the cooling system. If you still have your "closed
system" rigged up try pressurizing it and seeing if it holds pressure.
This
is a standard test on radiator systems, and you can purchase a small
pump
and pressure guage that installs in place of the radiator cap for this
purpose. The cooling system should be able to hold 13 PSI without any
significant loss.

Rod



Cheaper to take the boat to someone to do the pressure test. It is
about
$135 for the radiator pressure tester. They have been making these
things
for 50 years, and the price is still way to high.

Why? All you need is a non-relieving cap with 1/4" nipple, available
at NAPA for less than $10, a low pressure gauge, and your air
compressor, even the little tiny ones will work.

Some people like to use the tool designed for the job. For less than $10
and no time expended, you can rent the tool.

The tool I've described IS "designed for the job". For less than $10 you can OWN it.

"basskisser" wrote in message


Why? All you need is a non-relieving cap with 1/4" nipple, available
at NAPA for less than $10, a low pressure gauge, and your air
compressor, even the little tiny ones will work.

I am not sure how you would make that tool. It wouldn't be hard to drill a
clearance hole in the outer bracket of the radiator cap. The pipe, as you
describe, would probably fit down the center of the pressure relief spring
okay. What I don't see is how you fasten the pipe to the seal surface
without destroying the sealing surface and/or gasket and make sure that it
doesn't become a source of leaks.

Since he would need to be jury-rigging the closed loop system he could just
simply not use a radiator cap. Simply close the system with a pair of hose
barbs fitted into regular old pipe. With a Tee and some reducer bushings
you could arrange for a tire valve and pressure guage with ease.

Just be real careful with the pressure if you don't have the pressure relief
of the radiator cap. I would recommend a hand pump instead of an air
compressor.

Rod

I did the pressure test today. Filled the engine with water, closed the
cooling system and eliminated manifolds from the loop. Then applied 20 psi
pressure to the cooling system (water jacket). It held easily for 20 min. no
change (twice). The pressure dropped sligthly when I was cranking the engine
with plugs out while keeping cooling sys. pressurized.. Spoke with a local
rebuilder that suggested the above while canking the engine and watching for
water appearing in cylinders (coming out of plug sockets), crankcase or
elsewhere. Drained the oil and watched for water dripping from underneath.
Nada. Filled both manifolds (with raisers) with water to look for leaks.
None. I guess that I got to check them under pressure.
In summary, no obvious leaks. There may be some (tiny) there that might show
if the engine is warm. That would be my next step I guess. As advised here I
built a tool for pressure testing using a piece of plastic 3/4 inch pipe,
plastic screw-on cap and a tire valve that I installed in a cap. Worked
great. Used a small compressor (tire type) to apply pressure and since its
gauge was constanlty showing pressure changes I knew exactly what's
happening. Despite that there's no pregress locating the leak. Any ideas?


"rmcinnis" wrote in message
...

"basskisser" wrote in message


Why? All you need is a non-relieving cap with 1/4" nipple, available
at NAPA for less than $10, a low pressure gauge, and your air
compressor, even the little tiny ones will work.

I am not sure how you would make that tool. It wouldn't be hard to drill a
clearance hole in the outer bracket of the radiator cap. The pipe, as you
describe, would probably fit down the center of the pressure relief spring
okay. What I don't see is how you fasten the pipe to the seal surface
without destroying the sealing surface and/or gasket and make sure that it
doesn't become a source of leaks.

Since he would need to be jury-rigging the closed loop system he could
just
simply not use a radiator cap. Simply close the system with a pair of
hose
barbs fitted into regular old pipe. With a Tee and some reducer bushings
you could arrange for a tire valve and pressure guage with ease.

Just be real careful with the pressure if you don't have the pressure
relief
of the radiator cap. I would recommend a hand pump instead of an air
compressor.

Rod

Yes, water was presesnt in all cylinders, all plugs were wet and most of the
water was in the middle cyl. 4,6,3,7 but also in the rest of them. Intake
passages are nicely red, so are the connecting cyl. head ports.

I created a closed loop bypassing exhaust altogether, only the block, heads
and intake was in the loop. Water inlet was inside the bucket, so was the
outlet that would normally lead to exhaust manifolds. You could see the
engine sucking from and throwing water back out into the bucket.

Engine also takes the water running (steam) but it is all more apparent whan
you shut down.
I can't comprehend the idea of water travelling from one cyl to another.
Cylinders are air-tight´and intake valve is open only during the downstroke
so how could the piston push water out into the intake (?). That would make
the engine fail any compression test wouldn't it?
As to compression, it is 150-170 on all cyl.
Head gaskets were replaced and old ones were still good, no problem. Bottom
of the carb is quite badly rusted indicating that it has freq. contact with
water (?).
This is a major leak and lots of water enters the engine and cylinders.



"rmcinnis" wrote in message
...

"Paul" wrote in message
. cable.rogers.com...
After taking the boat out just a few times this your I couldn't crank
the
engine anymore. Replaced the starter, removed all spark plugs, cranked
and
fount all cylinders in a 5L V8 OMC 305 engine flooded.

Does this mean that water came out of all 8 cylinders after yo had removed
the plugs?

Since all 8 cyl. were
flooded at the same time with fresh water I do not suspect exhaust.
(verified by creating a closed loop coolant system and eliminating
exhaust
altogether).

I am not sure what you mean here. How does creating a closed loop cooling
eliminate the exhaust? Did you create a closed loop cooling system, run
the
motor and have all 8 cylinders fill with water again?

When you ran the motor this way, did you not have any water running
through
the exhaust system?

My suspect is a leak between cooling passages and cylinders intakes
in the intake manifold. Can't also imagine how a cracked block would
flood
all 8 cyl. at once.

If I understand the situation properly it doesn't sound like the water
enters the cylinder(s) while the engine is running, but rather after the
engine is shut down. If you get water into one cylinder it is easy for it
to migrate to the other cylinders, all it takes is for the intake valve to
be open. The water will flow from the flooded cylinder up into the intake
manifold. At least one other intake valve will be open at the same time
which means it will flood also. When you crank the engine the remaining
cylinders will draw in any water remaining in the intake manifold and they
will flood as well.

You apparently have a leak between the water jacket and either a cylinder
directly or into the intake manifold. This could be from a gasket failure,
either the head gasket (fairly common failure) or the intake manifold
gasket
(pretty rare, but certainly possible). If the failure is in the head
gasket
a compression check should show which cylinder is the problem.

If the problem is not a gasket then I would bet that the intake manifold
has
rusted through to the cooling system. If you still have your "closed
system" rigged up try pressurizing it and seeing if it holds pressure.
This
is a standard test on radiator systems, and you can purchase a small pump
and pressure guage that installs in place of the radiator cap for this
purpose. The cooling system should be able to hold 13 PSI without any
significant loss.

Rod

I took it apart already. It wasn't perfect as it lacked caps to make it good
for pressure testing. I lead the engine water inlet into the bucket. Both
outlets on the thermostat housing were connected with the "T" connector and
the outlet was also put into the bucket. The engine was running with a
closed loop feeding itself from the bucket (also spitting out into it).
About 10-15 min. into this the engine was reaching its temperature's
"operating range" mid-point.. Impeller was out.
It ran pretty well so I was optimistic. That has proven to be short lived.

Yesterday I spoke with the engine rebuilder and his judgment was "bad
intake" (rusted through or cracked). For now I'm kind of tired with
rerigging the engine again to I've pretty much decided to replace the
intake. My approach is this:
it is a § 100 fix, if successful I'm set. Since after the intake replacement
I'd have to pressure test water-jacket anyway I decided to do it afterwards.
I'm going to get the vacuum tester and I'll have a better idea as to the
intake, valves, head gasket etc. performance. But that will be done after
the intake replacement. I'll also need to stop by a local church to make a
donation, just in case...

"rmcinnis" wrote in message
...

"Paul" wrote in message
. cable.rogers.com...
After taking the boat out just a few times this your I couldn't crank
the
engine anymore. Replaced the starter, removed all spark plugs, cranked
and
fount all cylinders in a 5L V8 OMC 305 engine flooded.

Does this mean that water came out of all 8 cylinders after yo had removed
the plugs?

Since all 8 cyl. were
flooded at the same time with fresh water I do not suspect exhaust.
(verified by creating a closed loop coolant system and eliminating
exhaust
altogether).

I am not sure what you mean here. How does creating a closed loop cooling
eliminate the exhaust? Did you create a closed loop cooling system, run
the
motor and have all 8 cylinders fill with water again?

When you ran the motor this way, did you not have any water running
through
the exhaust system?

My suspect is a leak between cooling passages and cylinders intakes
in the intake manifold. Can't also imagine how a cracked block would
flood
all 8 cyl. at once.

If I understand the situation properly it doesn't sound like the water
enters the cylinder(s) while the engine is running, but rather after the
engine is shut down. If you get water into one cylinder it is easy for it
to migrate to the other cylinders, all it takes is for the intake valve to
be open. The water will flow from the flooded cylinder up into the intake
manifold. At least one other intake valve will be open at the same time
which means it will flood also. When you crank the engine the remaining
cylinders will draw in any water remaining in the intake manifold and they
will flood as well.

You apparently have a leak between the water jacket and either a cylinder
directly or into the intake manifold. This could be from a gasket failure,
either the head gasket (fairly common failure) or the intake manifold
gasket
(pretty rare, but certainly possible). If the failure is in the head
gasket
a compression check should show which cylinder is the problem.

If the problem is not a gasket then I would bet that the intake manifold
has
rusted through to the cooling system. If you still have your "closed
system" rigged up try pressurizing it and seeing if it holds pressure.
This
is a standard test on radiator systems, and you can purchase a small pump
and pressure guage that installs in place of the radiator cap for this
purpose. The cooling system should be able to hold 13 PSI without any
significant loss.

Rod