Gould,

Kerry was forced into going to Viet Nam like most of the people over there.
He did everything he could think of to get out of Viet Nam, like most of
those drafted. Unlike most draftee's, he succeeded in getting out in 4
months. More power to him, I would have done the same thing.

But don't ask for a deferment to go to Paris, file for 4 purple hearts after
receiving minor cuts and then claim to be a war hero. He was an average GI,
doing the best he could in a terrible war, when he came home, he was against
the war, stated their was wide spread atrocities and he was guilty of
committing them the atrocities. That is his right as an American citizen,
but considering these facts, he should run on his record of the past 20 yrs.
and not make his 4 month military record a center piece of his campaign.

Kerry bought this upon himself, when he tried to make himself out as a war
hero, which is a gross distortion of the facts.




"Gould 0738" wrote in message
...
Do you think his statements accusing soldiers of widespread atrocities
helped
the attitudes of the people at home?


Do you think that isolating a portion of a person's testimony, out of
context,
and feigning blindness or indifference toward the balance helps you
appreciate
the truth?

Kerry was forced into going to Viet Nam like most of the people over there.
He did everything he could think of to get out of Viet Nam, like most of
those drafted.

Kerry volunteered.


Unlike most draftee's, he succeeded in getting out in 4
months.

He wasn't a draftee.
He served 16 months in Viet Nam. One 12-month tour and 4 months of a second
tour. How many people volunteered for a second tour or served any portion of
one?

Just goes to prove that if enough people repeat the same lies over and over,
pretty soon a great number of folks begin to believe them.



But don't ask for a deferment to go to Paris, file for 4 purple hearts after
receiving minor cuts and then claim to be a war hero.

Wasn't it three purple hearts? And a Bronze Star. And a Silver Star.

BTW, any soldier qualifies for the purple heart if he or she suffers any combat
related injury, (has to be caused directly by enemy action), if that combat
related injury requires medical attention. There doesn't even need to be a loss
of blood. Broken bones and contusions count. If you get nicked in the arm and
need two or three stitches to sew it up, that meets the
qualification for purple heart.

The only "heroism" attached to Kerry's record was fishing Rassman out of the
river.

Kerry bought this upon himself, when he tried to make himself out as a war
hero, which is a gross distortion of the facts.

Absolutely a critical campaign mistake.
It lets the Repubs shift the focus to arguing about things that happened 35
years ago rather than taking a hard look at what's going on today. *Exactly*
the break a failing administration needed.

Gould,
Kerry enlisted in the Navy to get out of being drafted into the army. He
requested a 2S deferment, was denied and chose the Navy as a better
alternative to the army.

I do appreciate the correction concerning this first term of duty, I was not
aware of that. The question I have is if he spent 12 months in VN, he knew
we were burning villages, raping the population, killing innocent people,
and committing extreme atrocities and war crimes, why did he volunteer for a
term of duty?


"Gould 0738" wrote in message
...
Kerry was forced into going to Viet Nam like most of the people over
there.
He did everything he could think of to get out of Viet Nam, like most of
those drafted.

Kerry volunteered.


Unlike most draftee's, he succeeded in getting out in 4
months.

He wasn't a draftee.
He served 16 months in Viet Nam. One 12-month tour and 4 months of a
second
tour. How many people volunteered for a second tour or served any portion
of
one?

Just goes to prove that if enough people repeat the same lies over and
over,
pretty soon a great number of folks begin to believe them.



But don't ask for a deferment to go to Paris, file for 4 purple hearts
after
receiving minor cuts and then claim to be a war hero.

Wasn't it three purple hearts? And a Bronze Star. And a Silver Star.

BTW, any soldier qualifies for the purple heart if he or she suffers any
combat
related injury, (has to be caused directly by enemy action), if that
combat
related injury requires medical attention. There doesn't even need to be a
loss
of blood. Broken bones and contusions count. If you get nicked in the arm
and
need two or three stitches to sew it up, that meets the
qualification for purple heart.

The only "heroism" attached to Kerry's record was fishing Rassman out of
the
river.

Kerry bought this upon himself, when he tried to make himself out as a war
hero, which is a gross distortion of the facts.

Absolutely a critical campaign mistake.
It lets the Repubs shift the focus to arguing about things that happened
35
years ago rather than taking a hard look at what's going on today.
*Exactly*
the break a failing administration needed.

Gould,
Kerry enlisted in the Navy to get out of being drafted into the army. He
requested a 2S deferment, was denied and chose the Navy as a better
alternative to the army.

And therefore he was not a draftee.

One whole bunch of people opted to join the Coast Guard, the Navy, the Texas
Air National Guard, or etc to avoid trudging through tropical forests while
lugging heavy weapons.

One who volunteers, regardless of the motivation, is not a draftee.

I do appreciate the correction concerning this first term of duty, I was not
aware of that. The question I have is if he spent 12 months in VN, he knew
we were burning villages, raping the population, killing innocent people,
and committing extreme atrocities and war crimes, why did he volunteer for a
term of duty?

Who knows?

In December of 1968, we had 535,000 troops in Viet Nam.

Take any city of 1/2 million people. There are going to be a lot of bad actors.
If 98% of the troops observed the Geneva conventions, and 2% did not, that
means we had about 10,000 jerkoffs in country
who could very conceivably commit atrocities.

Did all, or most, of the guys in Viet Nam commit atrocities? Heck no, unless
you count war itself as an atrocity. Did some guys do every one of the things
that the Winter Soldiers testified about? Certainly.

Without getting bogged down in detail, one of the most lethal forces we had in
Viet Nam was the CIA.

We ran a program called "Phoenix" in Viet Nam, the Viet Namese called if Phung
Hoang. The Phung Hoang, like the Phoenix, was also a giant bird. The Phung
Hoang of legend would snatch people out of their beds at night, just like the
CIA.

"Phoenix" involved methods not in the least approved the Geneva conventions.
Our enlisted fround forces were often used as "muscle" by the CIA, with full
cooperation from the highest levels of command
..
Here's an excerpt from a book by a very highly decorated VN veteran. His
experience was not typical, but it does
add some credibility to stories about cutting off ears, etc.

"The problem was, how do you find the people on the blacklist? It's not like
you had their address and telephone number. The normal procedure would be to go
into a village and just grab someone and say, 'Where's Nguyen so-and-so?' Half
the time the people were so afraid they would say anything. Then a Phoenix team
would take the informant, put a sandbag over his head, poke out two holes so he
could see, put commo wire around his neck like a long leash, and walk him
through the village and say, 'When we go by Nguyen's house scratch your head.'
Then that night Phoenix would come back, knock on the door, and say, 'April
Fool, mother****er.' Whoever answered the door would get wasted. As far as they
were concerned whoever answered was a Communist, including family members.
Sometimes they'd come back to camp with ears to prove that they killed people."
-- Vincent Okamoto, combat officer (Lieutenant) in Vietnam in 1968, and
recipient of Distinguished Service Cross, the second highest award conferred by
the U.S. Army. Wounded 3 times. He was also an intelligence liaison officer for
the Phoenix Program for 2 months in 1968. Quote is from page 361 of the
hardback 2003 first edition of the book "Patriots: the Vietnam War remembered
from all sides."

"Gould 0738" wrote in message
...
Kerry was forced into going to Viet Nam like most of the people over
there.
He did everything he could think of to get out of Viet Nam, like most of
those drafted.

Kerry volunteered.


Unlike most draftee's, he succeeded in getting out in 4
months.

He wasn't a draftee.
He served 16 months in Viet Nam. One 12-month tour and 4 months of a
second
tour. How many people volunteered for a second tour or served any portion
of
one?

The log book of the USS Gridely has been checked and it was in SEA for five
weeks during Kerry's 12 month tour on the ship. So, Kerry did not serve 16
monts in country.


Just goes to prove that if enough people repeat the same lies over and
over,
pretty soon a great number of folks begin to believethem.

It appears that you are falling into the repeating of lies.



But don't ask for a deferment to go to Paris, file for 4 purple hearts
after
receiving minor cuts and then claim to be a war hero.

Wasn't it three purple hearts? And a Bronze Star. And a Silver Star.

For scratches and wounds due to Kerry's own incompetence.

BTW, any soldier qualifies for the purple heart if he or she suffers any
combat
related injury, (has to be caused directly by enemy action), if that
combat
related injury requires medical attention. There doesn't even need to be a
loss
of blood. Broken bones and contusions count. If you get nicked in the arm
and
need two or three stitches to sew it up, that meets the
qualification for purple heart.

You are correct. But, Kerry should be ashamed for asking for purple hearts
for scratches.

The only "heroism" attached to Kerry's record was fishing Rassman out of
the
river.

Kerry bought this upon himself, when he tried to make himself out as a
war
hero, which is a gross distortion of the facts.

Absolutely a critical campaign mistake.
It lets the Repubs shift the focus to arguing about things that happened
35
years ago rather than taking a hard look at what's going on today.
*Exactly*
the break a failing administration needed.

Maybe if Kerry had done more in the Senate he could run on that record.

On Sat, 04 Sep 2004 12:09:46 -0400, Bert Robbins wrote:


You are correct. But, Kerry should be ashamed for asking for purple hearts
for scratches.


As it is a two man race, it seems to me we should be comparing the two
candidates military records. I have found a site that does just that.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/4/21/19216/5237

"thunder" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 04 Sep 2004 12:09:46 -0400, Bert Robbins wrote:


You are correct. But, Kerry should be ashamed for asking for purple
hearts
for scratches.


As it is a two man race, it seems to me we should be comparing the two
candidates military records. I have found a site that does just that.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/4/21/19216/5237

Ok, lets compare accomplishments:

Pres. Bush was governor of Texas, elected and re-elected. And, Pres. Bush
was elected to be President of the US.

Kerry's executive management of large governmental organizations is what?

The log book of the USS Gridely has been checked and it was in SEA for five
weeks during Kerry's 12 month tour on the ship. So, Kerry did not serve 16
monts in country.

Just goes to prove that if enough people repeat the same lies over and
over,
pretty soon a great number of folks begin to believethem.

It appears that you are falling into the repeating of lies.

Excuse me!

The ship was at sea for five weeks out of a 52-week year. So he was five weeks
short of 16 months.

So, let's test truth here. Rush Limbaugh, Hannity, Savage, and the rest of your
cheerleaders all keep repeating "four months in Viet Nam!"

I said 16 months, as he was on duty on a ship that was patrolling the coast of
Viet Nam for (most of) 12-months.

Right Wing Hate Radio Version: "Four months in Viet Nam"

Gould's Version: Sixteen months.

If we pick nits and subtract the five weeks the ship was at sea, we are still
left with
14 months, 3 weeks.

Who is making a better effort to be accurate?

"Gould 0738" wrote in message
...
The log book of the USS Gridely has been checked and it was in SEA for
five
weeks during Kerry's 12 month tour on the ship. So, Kerry did not serve 16
monts in country.

Just goes to prove that if enough people repeat the same lies over and
over,
pretty soon a great number of folks begin to believethem.

It appears that you are falling into the repeating of lies.

Excuse me!

The ship was at sea for five weeks out of a 52-week year. So he was five
weeks
short of 16 months.

So, let's test truth here. Rush Limbaugh, Hannity, Savage, and the rest of
your
cheerleaders all keep repeating "four months in Viet Nam!"

I said 16 months, as he was on duty on a ship that was patrolling the
coast of
Viet Nam for (most of) 12-months.

Right Wing Hate Radio Version: "Four months in Viet Nam"

Gould's Version: Sixteen months.

If we pick nits and subtract the five weeks the ship was at sea, we are
still
left with
14 months, 3 weeks.

Who is making a better effort to be accurate?



4 months, 14 months 24 months....who cares. What does it have to do with
Kerry being fit to be POTUS?

How about his 240 months in the senate? Why is this not more important?

4 months, 14 months 24 months....who cares. What does it have to do with
Kerry being fit to be POTUS?

How about his 240 months in the senate? Why is this not more important?

Ask your strategists. They chose, at the highest levels, (I did hear that
Bush's attorney had to step down due to conflict of interest when he was
serving as legal advisor to the Swift Boat crew), to attack Kerry' record in
Viet Nam moreso than his record in the Senate.