"Doug Kanter" wrote in message news:xIJWc.2232
I always vote for cleats on docks because there are days when you're trying
to get a line around SOMETHING as you dock, but the wind is not cooperating,
nobody's there to help and you only have one hand free. Try that with a
ring. If it were me, I'd teach the kids how to look out for the cleats.
Besides, nobody's every died from a stubbed toe.

But, if you insist, you could recess normal cleats.

Newer Triton bass boats have recessed cleats, kind of what you are
getting at here. the hull about the cleat has a recessed area that the
cleat sits in, and the top of the cleat is at the same elevation as
the top of the gunwale. The outside then has a notch in it about 2
1/2" in width

One way to avoid cleats and rings entirely is to bolt a 2x4 along the
edge of the dock using thru bolted spacers every 2 feet or so. The
spacer blocks elevate the 2x4 so that you can tie around it. Easy to
make, harder to describe...

I have done this on the edges of a concrete dock and it's very
effective.

===============================================
On Tue, 24 Aug 2004 00:55:26 -0400, Sunny wrote:
I just spent my summer vacation working my butt off building a new dock
at my Muskoka cottage - the old one only lasted 18 years because I used
pine logs and 2 x 6 spruce, but I expect this one to be around a bit
longer due to the 8 x 12 Douglas Fir beams I lugged into place and the
small fortune spent on cedar decking.

We can't use it to moor the boats yet because I haven't found cleats or
mooring rings which meet my requirements at local suppliers. I want
something sturdy enough to withstand wave action (it's a small
freshwater lake, but being on a channel we are subjected to some pretty
inconsiderate wakes), preferably recessed so the kids don't stub their
toes while playing running and diving games, yet still usable in the
late fall when there is often snow and ice on the dock (ice sticks to
galvanised hardware like glue), and, last but not least, rustproof.

The old dock had zinc-plated rings attached with lag-screw eyes. They
held the boats fine (until wood rot set in and they started to pull
out), but the kids were constantly bashing their toes on them and they
rusted. A neighbour has recessed rings which are kid feet-friendly, and
not too bad in fall provided you carry a large screwdriver to prise the
rings up when they are frozen into the recesses, but they are also rusty
- and I'm pretty sure they are actually trapdoor pulls from Home Depot
and were not designed for mooring stresses (Hint: they came with 3/4"
mounting screws).

I've seen some anodised aluminium folding cleats, but they were not
cheap, only available in white (I'd prefer stainless steel), and looked
like they'd be unusable when frozen.

Anyone know where I can obtain recessed stainless steel rings designed
for the task? Or know of a better design given my criteria?

TIA

Sunny

Wayne.B wrote:

One way to avoid cleats and rings entirely is to bolt a 2x4 along the
edge of the dock using thru bolted spacers every 2 feet or so. The
spacer blocks elevate the 2x4 so that you can tie around it. Easy to
make, harder to describe...

I have done this on the edges of a concrete dock and it's very
effective.

Hmmm... very interesting (and economical) idea, but did you mount your
2x4 on the horizontal or vertical surface?

I'm thinking mounting on the horizontal surface would not be very
attractive, while vertical might damage boats if they slam up or down
against it due to wave action - and either way mooring lines might slide
along the 2x4 and allow boats to hit rocks.

This is all a bit difficult to visualize, so I've posted a couple of
pictures - one of the completed dock, and one of the (partially) built
frame so you can see what's underneath for mounting. Beams are 8x12 and
all decking and trim is 6x2:

http://tipperlinne.com/dock

===============================================
On Tue, 24 Aug 2004 00:55:26 -0400, Sunny wrote:

I just spent my summer vacation working my butt off building a new dock
at my Muskoka cottage - the old one only lasted 18 years because I used
pine logs and 2 x 6 spruce, but I expect this one to be around a bit
longer due to the 8 x 12 Douglas Fir beams I lugged into place and the
small fortune spent on cedar decking.

We can't use it to moor the boats yet because I haven't found cleats or
mooring rings which meet my requirements at local suppliers. I want
something sturdy enough to withstand wave action (it's a small
freshwater lake, but being on a channel we are subjected to some pretty
inconsiderate wakes), preferably recessed so the kids don't stub their
toes while playing running and diving games, yet still usable in the
late fall when there is often snow and ice on the dock (ice sticks to
galvanised hardware like glue), and, last but not least, rustproof.

The old dock had zinc-plated rings attached with lag-screw eyes. They
held the boats fine (until wood rot set in and they started to pull
out), but the kids were constantly bashing their toes on them and they
rusted. A neighbour has recessed rings which are kid feet-friendly, and
not too bad in fall provided you carry a large screwdriver to prise the
rings up when they are frozen into the recesses, but they are also rusty
- and I'm pretty sure they are actually trapdoor pulls from Home Depot
and were not designed for mooring stresses (Hint: they came with 3/4"
mounting screws).

I've seen some anodised aluminium folding cleats, but they were not
cheap, only available in white (I'd prefer stainless steel), and looked
like they'd be unusable when frozen.

Anyone know where I can obtain recessed stainless steel rings designed
for the task? Or know of a better design given my criteria?

TIA

Sunny

On Tue, 24 Aug 2004 20:44:58 -0400, Sunny wrote:
Hmmm... very interesting (and economical) idea, but did you mount your
2x4 on the horizontal or vertical surface?

I'm thinking mounting on the horizontal surface would not be very
attractive, while vertical might damage boats if they slam up or down
against it due to wave action - and either way mooring lines might slide
along the 2x4 and allow boats to hit rocks.

This is all a bit difficult to visualize, so I've posted a couple of
pictures - one of the completed dock, and one of the (partially) built
frame so you can see what's underneath for mounting. Beams are 8x12 and
all decking and trim is 6x2:

http://tipperlinne.com/dock

===================================

Great looking dock (and property). You can mount the 2x4s either
vertically on the front edge of the dock, or horizontally on the top
edge. Either way it's best to counterbore/recess the washer and bolt
assembly to avoid protruding hardware. My 2x4s are mounted
horizontally on the top edge of the dock and appearance is not really
an issue. Vertical should work OK also as long as you throughbolt
with a backing washer. My 2x4s are lagged into the concrete with zinc
plugs. Different docks, different fasteners. Line slippage is a
minor issue since the spacer blocks will catch it. If you tie the
line next to a spacer block, and oriented with the direction of
strain, there will be no slippage at all. It is an economical
approach compared to stainless or bronze cleats, and you have more
flexibility with positioning your lines since the whole edge of the
dock essentially becomes one large cleat.

Wayne.B wrote:

On Tue, 24 Aug 2004 20:44:58 -0400, Sunny wrote:

Hmmm... very interesting (and economical) idea, but did you mount your
2x4 on the horizontal or vertical surface?

I'm thinking mounting on the horizontal surface would not be very
attractive, while vertical might damage boats if they slam up or down
against it due to wave action - and either way mooring lines might slide
along the 2x4 and allow boats to hit rocks.

This is all a bit difficult to visualize, so I've posted a couple of
pictures - one of the completed dock, and one of the (partially) built
frame so you can see what's underneath for mounting. Beams are 8x12 and
all decking and trim is 6x2:

http://tipperlinne.com/dock


===================================

Great looking dock (and property). You can mount the 2x4s either
vertically on the front edge of the dock, or horizontally on the top
edge. Either way it's best to counterbore/recess the washer and bolt
assembly to avoid protruding hardware. My 2x4s are mounted
horizontally on the top edge of the dock and appearance is not really
an issue. Vertical should work OK also as long as you throughbolt
with a backing washer. My 2x4s are lagged into the concrete with zinc
plugs. Different docks, different fasteners. Line slippage is a
minor issue since the spacer blocks will catch it. If you tie the
line next to a spacer block, and oriented with the direction of
strain, there will be no slippage at all. It is an economical
approach compared to stainless or bronze cleats, and you have more
flexibility with positioning your lines since the whole edge of the
dock essentially becomes one large cleat.

Thanks - the positive feedback is appreciated given how hard I worked to
build that dock!

The more I think about this approach, the more I want to try it to see
how well it works - another advantage that comes to mind is the "cleat
rail" could also be used as a grab handle and step for kids pulling
themselves out of the water onto the dock.

I'm thinking I'll rout all 4 edges of the 2x4 with a 3/4" round-over
bit, and mount it on the vertical face of the dock using 8"x3/8 lag
screws set into the gap between the two face boards with short lengths
of 3/4" galvanised steel pipe as spacers - I could even cut and glue
wood plugs to cover the recessed lag screw heads and improve appearance.

I can do this using tools and materials already on-site, but if it
doesn't work well it could be removed and the mounting holes plugged so
all would be as before the experiment, on the other hand if lag screws
prove inadequate they could be replaced with long bolts right through
the beams for permanence.

Unless someone comes up with a better idea (or a good reason it won't
work), I think I'll try it this weekend :-)

Thanks again,

Sunny

On Tue, 24 Aug 2004 23:53:33 -0400, Sunny wrote:

I'm thinking I'll rout all 4 edges of the 2x4 with a 3/4" round-over
bit, and mount it on the vertical face of the dock using 8"x3/8 lag
screws set into the gap between the two face boards with short lengths
of 3/4" galvanised steel pipe as spacers

=========================================

That's an interesting variation. I'm concerned that the 2x4 may have
a tendency to wobble however unless you use fairly large diameter
pipe. My spacers are 2x4 pieces cut to about 4 inch lengths.

Sunny wrote:

This is all a bit difficult to visualize, so I've posted a couple of
pictures - one of the completed dock, and one of the (partially) built
frame so you can see what's underneath for mounting. Beams are 8x12 and
all decking and trim is 6x2:

Nice work. How about these: http://www.tempcleat.com/ ?

I don't think I'd leave a boat tied up that way over night, but it
should be fine during the day.

dave

--
-----
news_bucket e-mail address goes to a blackhole. Sorry. Send e-mail to
"respond" at the same domain.
http://www.tempcleat.com/

Dave Skolnick wrote:

Sunny wrote:


This is all a bit difficult to visualize, so I've posted a couple of
pictures - one of the completed dock, and one of the (partially) built
frame so you can see what's underneath for mounting. Beams are 8x12
and all decking and trim is 6x2:


Nice work. How about these: http://www.tempcleat.com/ ?

Thanks :-)

I carry a couple of devices similar to those in my boat, but they are
spring-loaded so you push down and turn to lock them between deck
boards. Quite good, but I agree I wouldn't be comfortable leaving a boat
unattended for extended periods while using them.

I don't think I'd leave a boat tied up that way over night, but it
should be fine during the day.

dave

--
-----
news_bucket e-mail address goes to a blackhole. Sorry. Send e-mail to
"respond" at the same domain.
http://www.tempcleat.com/

Sunny wrote:
I just spent my summer vacation working my butt off building a new dock
at my Muskoka cottage - the old one only lasted 18 years because I used
pine logs and 2 x 6 spruce, but I expect this one to be around a bit
longer due to the 8 x 12 Douglas Fir beams I lugged into place and the
small fortune spent on cedar decking.

We can't use it to moor the boats yet because I haven't found cleats or
mooring rings which meet my requirements at local suppliers. I want
something sturdy enough to withstand wave action (it's a small
freshwater lake, but being on a channel we are subjected to some pretty
inconsiderate wakes), preferably recessed so the kids don't stub their
toes while playing running and diving games, yet still usable in the
late fall when there is often snow and ice on the dock (ice sticks to
galvanised hardware like glue), and, last but not least, rustproof.

The old dock had zinc-plated rings attached with lag-screw eyes. They
held the boats fine (until wood rot set in and they started to pull
out), but the kids were constantly bashing their toes on them and they
rusted. A neighbour has recessed rings which are kid feet-friendly, and
not too bad in fall provided you carry a large screwdriver to prise the
rings up when they are frozen into the recesses, but they are also rusty
- and I'm pretty sure they are actually trapdoor pulls from Home Depot
and were not designed for mooring stresses (Hint: they came with 3/4"
mounting screws).

I've seen some anodised aluminium folding cleats, but they were not
cheap, only available in white (I'd prefer stainless steel), and looked
like they'd be unusable when frozen.

Anyone know where I can obtain recessed stainless steel rings designed
for the task? Or know of a better design given my criteria?

TIA

Sunny

Many thanks for all the helpful suggestions.

In the end I found a supplier who stocked 6" black nylon cleats. They
have nicely rounded ends (hard to see how kids could injure themselves),
snow and ice don't adhere very well to nylon, and they seem fairly solid
when mounted with two #14 x 4" stainless steel screws (which go right
through the cedar decking and just over an inch into the fir beams).

This solution was cheap in terms of both financial outlay and
installation time, and I'm optimistic it will prove satisfactory over
the long term.

Pity the same can't be said for my efforts to preserve and protect the
decking - it was nicely dry after 3 days of hot weather, with a 48 hour
forecast of 'a mix of sun and cloud', so I applied a coat of water seal
- then it poured rain for 16 hours straight :-(

Sunny

If you ever replace the nylon cleats and want to entertain the idea of
metal, try West Marine. I bought some stainless steel ones a few years back.
All edges are beautifully smoothed, and they still look as good as the day I
bought them.

"Sunny" wrote in message
.. .


Sunny wrote:
I just spent my summer vacation working my butt off building a new dock
at my Muskoka cottage - the old one only lasted 18 years because I used
pine logs and 2 x 6 spruce, but I expect this one to be around a bit
longer due to the 8 x 12 Douglas Fir beams I lugged into place and the
small fortune spent on cedar decking.

We can't use it to moor the boats yet because I haven't found cleats or
mooring rings which meet my requirements at local suppliers. I want
something sturdy enough to withstand wave action (it's a small
freshwater lake, but being on a channel we are subjected to some pretty
inconsiderate wakes), preferably recessed so the kids don't stub their
toes while playing running and diving games, yet still usable in the
late fall when there is often snow and ice on the dock (ice sticks to
galvanised hardware like glue), and, last but not least, rustproof.

The old dock had zinc-plated rings attached with lag-screw eyes. They
held the boats fine (until wood rot set in and they started to pull
out), but the kids were constantly bashing their toes on them and they
rusted. A neighbour has recessed rings which are kid feet-friendly, and
not too bad in fall provided you carry a large screwdriver to prise the
rings up when they are frozen into the recesses, but they are also rusty
- and I'm pretty sure they are actually trapdoor pulls from Home Depot
and were not designed for mooring stresses (Hint: they came with 3/4"
mounting screws).

I've seen some anodised aluminium folding cleats, but they were not
cheap, only available in white (I'd prefer stainless steel), and looked
like they'd be unusable when frozen.

Anyone know where I can obtain recessed stainless steel rings designed
for the task? Or know of a better design given my criteria?

TIA

Sunny

Many thanks for all the helpful suggestions.

In the end I found a supplier who stocked 6" black nylon cleats. They
have nicely rounded ends (hard to see how kids could injure themselves),
snow and ice don't adhere very well to nylon, and they seem fairly solid
when mounted with two #14 x 4" stainless steel screws (which go right
through the cedar decking and just over an inch into the fir beams).

This solution was cheap in terms of both financial outlay and
installation time, and I'm optimistic it will prove satisfactory over
the long term.

Pity the same can't be said for my efforts to preserve and protect the
decking - it was nicely dry after 3 days of hot weather, with a 48 hour
forecast of 'a mix of sun and cloud', so I applied a coat of water seal
- then it poured rain for 16 hours straight :-(

Sunny