On Wednesday, April 21, 2021 at 4:44:22 PM UTC-4, John H wrote:
On Tue, 20 Apr 2021 16:48:08 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:
On Tuesday, April 20, 2021 at 7:27:30 PM UTC-4, John H wrote:
On Tue, 20 Apr 2021 07:20:01 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 4/20/2021 6:51 AM, John wrote:
On Tue, 20 Apr 2021 06:30:56 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:


Been thinking about the race related violence and deaths that seem to be
constantly in the news. The media is fixated on the issue of racial
profiling of minorities, especially black folks who are often being
singled out for stopping by police for minor traffic infractions that
escalate into arrests, resisting and too often violence that result in
deaths.

My thought:


When a officer stops a vehicle for a minor traffic infraction,
he or she runs a "check" via radio on the driver's (and sometimes
passenger's) license or ID. That check automatically includes a
search for any outstanding warrants for that person. If a warrant
exists, the person is often cuffed and arrested .... not for the
minor traffic infraction that they were stopped for ... but for
the outstanding bench warrant.

This often turns into resisting arrest with violent results.

This is standard operating procedure for law enforcement.
Not blaming them ... it's just "how it's done".

Maybe that needs to change.

What if outstanding warrants were not automatically included in
the "check" at the time of the vehicle being stopped?

The stop should be only related to the crime or infraction that caused
the police to stop the person, be it for speeding, a broken
tail light or whatever. It should not be an excuse to check for
anything else, based on the officer's suspicions.

If a person has an outstanding warrant, the search for him or her
is a different issue altogether and other means of apprehending
the person should be used, specifically with the warrant being
the issue.

If the warrant is for a violent crime, it's knowledge might be very useful.

I understand but if there is a warrant issued for a violent crime it
should be under investigation and pursuit by other means.

It very well could be.
Some kind of compromise is needed to stop the "profiling" concerns.

It's also consistent with law that a stop for one infraction isn't
cause for arrest for another. A database search is convenient but
not necessarily legal, especially if the initial infraction is a
busted taillight.

Do they issue warrants for such offenses? I can see nothing illegal in searching
the law enforcement's data base for warrants.

So it's not legal to make sure a person that is breaking the law is not under an
active warrant for breaking another law/? WTF?

"It's also consistent with law that a stop for one infraction isn't cause for arrest
for another."
Again, WTF? The cause for arrest is the INITIAL warrant for the first infraction,
not the stop. The stop just brought the individual to the attention of law enforcement.
They had been evading law enforcement until that point.

I'm sure you realize I didn't say those things!

I agree with you!

Yup, sorry. You got caught in the middle.

On Wed, 21 Apr 2021 09:41:10 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 4/20/2021 4:23 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 20 Apr 2021 06:30:56 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:


Been thinking about the race related violence and deaths that seem to be
constantly in the news. The media is fixated on the issue of racial
profiling of minorities, especially black folks who are often being
singled out for stopping by police for minor traffic infractions that
escalate into arrests, resisting and too often violence that result in
deaths.

My thought:


When a officer stops a vehicle for a minor traffic infraction,
he or she runs a "check" via radio on the driver's (and sometimes
passenger's) license or ID. That check automatically includes a
search for any outstanding warrants for that person. If a warrant
exists, the person is often cuffed and arrested .... not for the
minor traffic infraction that they were stopped for ... but for
the outstanding bench warrant.

This often turns into resisting arrest with violent results.

This is standard operating procedure for law enforcement.
Not blaming them ... it's just "how it's done".

Maybe that needs to change.

What if outstanding warrants were not automatically included in
the "check" at the time of the vehicle being stopped?

The stop should be only related to the crime or infraction that caused
the police to stop the person, be it for speeding, a broken
tail light or whatever. It should not be an excuse to check for
anything else, based on the officer's suspicions.

If a person has an outstanding warrant, the search for him or her
is a different issue altogether and other means of apprehending
the person should be used, specifically with the warrant being
the issue.

Cops would be quick to point out, traffic stops solve more felonies
and result in more felony arrests than detective work. Without traffic
stops about half of the drug war wouldn't be able to be prosecuted.
Cops call a traffic stop a "tool", AKA a way to get around your
rights. (searches, interrogations without Miranda etc)
They are not going to give that up.

Look at it another way. If they catch a wanted serial killer on a
traffic stop, do you want him driving away with a speeding ticket and
a smile on his face?



Every case of a serial killer on the loose that I've read about
results in a dedicated and massive manhunt for the
person. Cops don't start stopping every car on the road
searching for him.

That doesn't mean the killer couldn't be caught while stopped for an infraction.
Suppose a felony warrant is discovered at a sobriety checkpoint?
--

Freedom Isn't Free!

On Wed, 21 Apr 2021 13:17:51 -0700 (PDT), True North
wrote:

On Wednesday, 21 April 2021 at 16:08:43 UTC-3, Bill wrote:
Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 4/20/2021 9:10 AM, wrote:
On Tuesday, April 20, 2021 at 7:20:01 AM UTC-4, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 4/20/2021 6:51 AM, John wrote:
On Tue, 20 Apr 2021 06:30:56 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:


Been thinking about the race related violence and deaths that seem to be
constantly in the news. The media is fixated on the issue of racial
profiling of minorities, especially black folks who are often being
singled out for stopping by police for minor traffic infractions that
escalate into arrests, resisting and too often violence that result in
deaths.

My thought:


When a officer stops a vehicle for a minor traffic infraction,
he or she runs a "check" via radio on the driver's (and sometimes
passenger's) license or ID. That check automatically includes a
search for any outstanding warrants for that person. If a warrant
exists, the person is often cuffed and arrested .... not for the
minor traffic infraction that they were stopped for ... but for
the outstanding bench warrant.

This often turns into resisting arrest with violent results.

This is standard operating procedure for law enforcement.
Not blaming them ... it's just "how it's done".

Maybe that needs to change.

What if outstanding warrants were not automatically included in
the "check" at the time of the vehicle being stopped?

The stop should be only related to the crime or infraction that caused
the police to stop the person, be it for speeding, a broken
tail light or whatever. It should not be an excuse to check for
anything else, based on the officer's suspicions.

If a person has an outstanding warrant, the search for him or her
is a different issue altogether and other means of apprehending
the person should be used, specifically with the warrant being
the issue.

If the warrant is for a violent crime, it's knowledge might be very useful.
I understand but if there is a warrant issued for a violent crime it
should be under investigation and pursuit by other means.

Some kind of compromise is needed to stop the "profiling" concerns.

It's also consistent with law that a stop for one infraction isn't
cause for arrest for another. A database search is convenient but
not necessarily legal, especially if the initial infraction is a
busted taillight.

So the fix for stopping arrests of wanted criminals is to just not engage them,
and let them go so things don't get violent? If the person has a history of violence,
you don't think the officer should know about that when making a legal stop?
When you hire someone you do a background check so you know who you are
bringing into your company everyday. But police officers should have their hands
tied and not know who they are dealing with? They are doing a very valuable and
dangerous job, but their moral is at an all-time low and are leaving their jobs at
record rates, at least according to some articles I've read lately. I just can't get
behind your proposal that puts them at real risk.

I have an idea. If the person being stopped could act properly and treat the officer with
the respect they deserve, then there will be no issue and everyone will
go on about their day.
However, if the person being stopped has an outstanding warrant for their arrest, I'd like
for the police to get them off the street ASAP to insure the public's safety and security.
If the lawbreaker gets their feelings hurt in the process, well too damn
bad. Don't do the crime
if you can't do the time.



The issue is racial profiling and stopping people for a minor
traffic infraction just to see if they happen to be wanted for
something else.

My proposal isn't popular for sure but what else can be done?



We have all been stopped for minor offense, like no brake lights, broken
tail light, failure to,signal, etc. They always run the license plate
first, to see if the car is known from a crime to be stolen or dangerous.
Same with the drivers license. Is it legal, suspended, etc. So, you are
just going to have a cop walk to a car without knowing anything about what
they are stopping? Maybe, if black lives mattered, the black community
would make,sure the kids finished school, and did not shoot each other with
so much frequency. How can Chuvin bee guilty of murder when trying to
restrain a violent person, but the Federal Government says there is no
evidence of a crime if a Federal officer shoots a unarmed fat white lady?


No...we haven't.
I can't remember the last time I was stopped by a cop, maybe in the early 80s.
I keep everything working on my Highlander, obey all traffic signals etc and rarely exceed the posted speed limit.

On the one hand you say, "No...we haven't." Then you contradict yourself with
your stop by a cop 'in the early 80's'.

Just how f'ing stupid are you?
--

Freedom Isn't Free!

True North wrote:
On Wednesday, 21 April 2021 at 16:08:43 UTC-3, Bill wrote:
Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 4/20/2021 9:10 AM, wrote:
On Tuesday, April 20, 2021 at 7:20:01 AM UTC-4, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 4/20/2021 6:51 AM, John wrote:
On Tue, 20 Apr 2021 06:30:56 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:


Been thinking about the race related violence and deaths that seem to be
constantly in the news. The media is fixated on the issue of racial
profiling of minorities, especially black folks who are often being
singled out for stopping by police for minor traffic infractions that
escalate into arrests, resisting and too often violence that result in
deaths.

My thought:


When a officer stops a vehicle for a minor traffic infraction,
he or she runs a "check" via radio on the driver's (and sometimes
passenger's) license or ID. That check automatically includes a
search for any outstanding warrants for that person. If a warrant
exists, the person is often cuffed and arrested .... not for the
minor traffic infraction that they were stopped for ... but for
the outstanding bench warrant.

This often turns into resisting arrest with violent results.

This is standard operating procedure for law enforcement.
Not blaming them ... it's just "how it's done".

Maybe that needs to change.

What if outstanding warrants were not automatically included in
the "check" at the time of the vehicle being stopped?

The stop should be only related to the crime or infraction that caused
the police to stop the person, be it for speeding, a broken
tail light or whatever. It should not be an excuse to check for
anything else, based on the officer's suspicions.

If a person has an outstanding warrant, the search for him or her
is a different issue altogether and other means of apprehending
the person should be used, specifically with the warrant being
the issue.

If the warrant is for a violent crime, it's knowledge might be very useful.
I understand but if there is a warrant issued for a violent crime it
should be under investigation and pursuit by other means.

Some kind of compromise is needed to stop the "profiling" concerns.

It's also consistent with law that a stop for one infraction isn't
cause for arrest for another. A database search is convenient but
not necessarily legal, especially if the initial infraction is a
busted taillight.

So the fix for stopping arrests of wanted criminals is to just not engage them,
and let them go so things don't get violent? If the person has a history of violence,
you don't think the officer should know about that when making a legal stop?
When you hire someone you do a background check so you know who you are
bringing into your company everyday. But police officers should have their hands
tied and not know who they are dealing with? They are doing a very valuable and
dangerous job, but their moral is at an all-time low and are leaving their jobs at
record rates, at least according to some articles I've read lately. I just can't get
behind your proposal that puts them at real risk.

I have an idea. If the person being stopped could act properly and
treat the officer with
the respect they deserve, then there will be no issue and everyone will
go on about their day.
However, if the person being stopped has an outstanding warrant for
their arrest, I'd like
for the police to get them off the street ASAP to insure the public's
safety and security.
If the lawbreaker gets their feelings hurt in the process, well too damn
bad. Don't do the crime
if you can't do the time.



The issue is racial profiling and stopping people for a minor
traffic infraction just to see if they happen to be wanted for
something else.

My proposal isn't popular for sure but what else can be done?



We have all been stopped for minor offense, like no brake lights, broken
tail light, failure to,signal, etc. They always run the license plate
first, to see if the car is known from a crime to be stolen or dangerous.
Same with the drivers license. Is it legal, suspended, etc. So, you are
just going to have a cop walk to a car without knowing anything about what
they are stopping? Maybe, if black lives mattered, the black community
would make,sure the kids finished school, and did not shoot each other with
so much frequency. How can Chuvin bee guilty of murder when trying to
restrain a violent person, but the Federal Government says there is no
evidence of a crime if a Federal officer shoots a unarmed fat white lady?


No...we haven't.
I can't remember the last time I was stopped by a cop, maybe in the early 80s.
I keep everything working on my Highlander, obey all traffic signals etc
and rarely exceed the posted speed limit.


Maybe the cops already know you from cleaning their **** up.

On 4/21/2021 4:55 PM, John wrote:
On Wed, 21 Apr 2021 09:41:10 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 4/20/2021 4:23 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 20 Apr 2021 06:30:56 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:


Been thinking about the race related violence and deaths that seem to be
constantly in the news. The media is fixated on the issue of racial
profiling of minorities, especially black folks who are often being
singled out for stopping by police for minor traffic infractions that
escalate into arrests, resisting and too often violence that result in
deaths.

My thought:


When a officer stops a vehicle for a minor traffic infraction,
he or she runs a "check" via radio on the driver's (and sometimes
passenger's) license or ID. That check automatically includes a
search for any outstanding warrants for that person. If a warrant
exists, the person is often cuffed and arrested .... not for the
minor traffic infraction that they were stopped for ... but for
the outstanding bench warrant.

This often turns into resisting arrest with violent results.

This is standard operating procedure for law enforcement.
Not blaming them ... it's just "how it's done".

Maybe that needs to change.

What if outstanding warrants were not automatically included in
the "check" at the time of the vehicle being stopped?

The stop should be only related to the crime or infraction that caused
the police to stop the person, be it for speeding, a broken
tail light or whatever. It should not be an excuse to check for
anything else, based on the officer's suspicions.

If a person has an outstanding warrant, the search for him or her
is a different issue altogether and other means of apprehending
the person should be used, specifically with the warrant being
the issue.

Cops would be quick to point out, traffic stops solve more felonies
and result in more felony arrests than detective work. Without traffic
stops about half of the drug war wouldn't be able to be prosecuted.
Cops call a traffic stop a "tool", AKA a way to get around your
rights. (searches, interrogations without Miranda etc)
They are not going to give that up.

Look at it another way. If they catch a wanted serial killer on a
traffic stop, do you want him driving away with a speeding ticket and
a smile on his face?



Every case of a serial killer on the loose that I've read about
results in a dedicated and massive manhunt for the
person. Cops don't start stopping every car on the road
searching for him.


That doesn't mean the killer couldn't be caught while stopped for an infraction.
Suppose a felony warrant is discovered at a sobriety checkpoint?

John, I am not debating the logic or reasoning of running checks if
stopped for a traffic violation.

I am questioning using them as a racially profiling tool due to the
number of unnecessary shootings and deaths. I've heard all the
arguments .... "Don't resist and you won't get shot" ... and I
fundamentally agree with them.

But I am not black or a minority. (as far as I know) :-)


--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

On 4/21/2021 11:09 AM, Keyser Söze wrote:
On 4/21/21 9:37 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 4/20/2021 7:27 PM, John wrote:
On Tue, 20 Apr 2021 07:20:01 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 4/20/2021 6:51 AM, John wrote:
On Tue, 20 Apr 2021 06:30:56 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:


Been thinking about the race related violence and deaths that seem
to be
constantly in the news.Â* The media is fixated on the issue of racial
profiling of minorities, especially black folks who are often being
singled out for stopping by police for minor traffic infractions that
escalate into arrests, resisting and too often violence that
result in
deaths.

My thought:


When a officer stops a vehicle for a minor traffic infraction,
he or she runs a "check" via radio on the driver's (and sometimes
passenger's) license or ID.Â* That check automatically includes a
search for any outstanding warrants for that person.Â* If a warrant
exists, the person is often cuffed and arrested .... not for the
minor traffic infraction that they were stopped for ... but for
the outstanding bench warrant.

This often turns into resisting arrest with violent results.

This is standard operating procedure for law enforcement.
Not blaming them ... it's just "how it's done".

Maybe that needs to change.

What if outstanding warrants were not automatically included in
the "check" at the time of the vehicle being stopped?

The stop should be only related to the crime or infraction that
caused
the police to stop the person, be it for speeding, a broken
tail light or whatever.Â* It should not be an excuse to check for
anything else, based on the officer's suspicions.

If a person has an outstanding warrant, the search for him or her
is a different issue altogether and other means of apprehending
the person should be used, specifically with the warrant being
the issue.

If the warrant is for a violent crime, it's knowledge might be very
useful.

I understand but if there is a warrant issued for a violent crime it
should be under investigation and pursuit by other means.

It very well could be.

Some kind of compromise is needed to stop the "profiling" concerns.

It's also consistent with law that a stop for one infraction isn't
cause for arrest for another. A database search is convenient but
not necessarily legal, especially if the initial infraction is a
busted taillight.

Do they issue warrants for such offenses? I can see nothing illegal
in searching
the law enforcement's data base for warrants.
--

Freedom Isn't Free!



You are all arguing the policies police can use as they exist now.

That was not the point of my "proposal".

I was trying to address the issue of people getting shot because
they are stopped for a minor infraction and then try to bolt
because the police then attempt to arrest for an outstanding
warrant.

If the stop was *because* of the outstanding warrant ... fine,
arrest the person.

If the stop was for a broken taillight, expired tags or
inspection sticker ... that's the offense they should be
guilty of and receive a ticket.

I know this doesn't make sense to most. It's not common
sense.Â* But the ability of the police to arrest
you for something else in your record that had nothing
to do with the reason for stopping the person in the
first place, will result in these
shootings and killings to continue.

Attempted robbery is not a death sentence felony.
Drug dealing is not a death sentence felony.
Failure to pay child support is not a death
penalty crime.

If someone is guilty of the above, they should be
located and arrested on the merit of the outstanding
warrant, not for a traffic violation that it seems
too often escalates into a shooting.

I am not "anti-police" nor am I turning into a
screwed-up screaming liberal like some.Â* Just
trying to think of ways to keep people alive.




Part of the answer may be found in "policing" the recruiting, hiring,
and training practices of police departments, and ensuring that they
operate in a civilized way that treats everyone encountered decently,
and that maximum force is used only when the physical danger to the
public or the police is obvious and imminent.

George Floyd was handcuffed and on the ground with four cops surrounding
him. He should have remained there until he was able to be moved safely.
Period.



The jury's verdict was completely justified.

My "proposal" obviously makes little sense if one stays in the
thinking that they have been accustom to. I was simply trying
to think outside the box a little to address racial profiling
that I am 100 percent convinced occurs on a regular basis.

Did you hear or read about the Maryland state cop that shot and
killed a teenage white female a couple of weeks ago?

Very little to no media coverage about it. Why?

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

On 4/21/2021 4:49 PM, John wrote:
On Wed, 21 Apr 2021 09:37:28 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 4/20/2021 7:27 PM, John wrote:
On Tue, 20 Apr 2021 07:20:01 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 4/20/2021 6:51 AM, John wrote:
On Tue, 20 Apr 2021 06:30:56 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:


Been thinking about the race related violence and deaths that seem to be
constantly in the news. The media is fixated on the issue of racial
profiling of minorities, especially black folks who are often being
singled out for stopping by police for minor traffic infractions that
escalate into arrests, resisting and too often violence that result in
deaths.

My thought:


When a officer stops a vehicle for a minor traffic infraction,
he or she runs a "check" via radio on the driver's (and sometimes
passenger's) license or ID. That check automatically includes a
search for any outstanding warrants for that person. If a warrant
exists, the person is often cuffed and arrested .... not for the
minor traffic infraction that they were stopped for ... but for
the outstanding bench warrant.

This often turns into resisting arrest with violent results.

This is standard operating procedure for law enforcement.
Not blaming them ... it's just "how it's done".

Maybe that needs to change.

What if outstanding warrants were not automatically included in
the "check" at the time of the vehicle being stopped?

The stop should be only related to the crime or infraction that caused
the police to stop the person, be it for speeding, a broken
tail light or whatever. It should not be an excuse to check for
anything else, based on the officer's suspicions.

If a person has an outstanding warrant, the search for him or her
is a different issue altogether and other means of apprehending
the person should be used, specifically with the warrant being
the issue.

If the warrant is for a violent crime, it's knowledge might be very useful.

I understand but if there is a warrant issued for a violent crime it
should be under investigation and pursuit by other means.

It very well could be.

Some kind of compromise is needed to stop the "profiling" concerns.

It's also consistent with law that a stop for one infraction isn't
cause for arrest for another. A database search is convenient but
not necessarily legal, especially if the initial infraction is a
busted taillight.

Do they issue warrants for such offenses? I can see nothing illegal in searching
the law enforcement's data base for warrants.
--

Freedom Isn't Free!



You are all arguing the policies police can use as they exist now.

That was not the point of my "proposal".

I was trying to address the issue of people getting shot because
they are stopped for a minor infraction and then try to bolt
because the police then attempt to arrest for an outstanding
warrant.

If the stop was *because* of the outstanding warrant ... fine,
arrest the person.

If the stop was for a broken taillight, expired tags or
inspection sticker ... that's the offense they should be
guilty of and receive a ticket.

I know this doesn't make sense to most. It's not common
sense. But the ability of the police to arrest
you for something else in your record that had nothing
to do with the reason for stopping the person in the
first place, will result in these
shootings and killings to continue.

Attempted robbery is not a death sentence felony.
Drug dealing is not a death sentence felony.
Failure to pay child support is not a death
penalty crime.

If someone is guilty of the above, they should be
located and arrested on the merit of the outstanding
warrant, not for a traffic violation that it seems
too often escalates into a shooting.

I am not "anti-police" nor am I turning into a
screwed-up screaming liberal like some. Just
trying to think of ways to keep people alive.

If an individual is a criminal and gets caught because of a traffic violation,
so be it.

I'd rather that than have him get caught running out of a 7/11 after shooting
the cashier.



Again, that is not what I am discussing. Forget it.



--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

On 4/21/21 6:31 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 4/21/2021 11:09 AM, Keyser Söze wrote:
On 4/21/21 9:37 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 4/20/2021 7:27 PM, John wrote:
On Tue, 20 Apr 2021 07:20:01 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 4/20/2021 6:51 AM, John wrote:
On Tue, 20 Apr 2021 06:30:56 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:


Been thinking about the race related violence and deaths that
seem to be
constantly in the news.Â* The media is fixated on the issue of racial
profiling of minorities, especially black folks who are often being
singled out for stopping by police for minor traffic infractions
that
escalate into arrests, resisting and too often violence that
result in
deaths.

My thought:


When a officer stops a vehicle for a minor traffic infraction,
he or she runs a "check" via radio on the driver's (and sometimes
passenger's) license or ID.Â* That check automatically includes a
search for any outstanding warrants for that person.Â* If a warrant
exists, the person is often cuffed and arrested .... not for the
minor traffic infraction that they were stopped for ... but for
the outstanding bench warrant.

This often turns into resisting arrest with violent results.

This is standard operating procedure for law enforcement.
Not blaming them ... it's just "how it's done".

Maybe that needs to change.

What if outstanding warrants were not automatically included in
the "check" at the time of the vehicle being stopped?

The stop should be only related to the crime or infraction that
caused
the police to stop the person, be it for speeding, a broken
tail light or whatever.Â* It should not be an excuse to check for
anything else, based on the officer's suspicions.

If a person has an outstanding warrant, the search for him or her
is a different issue altogether and other means of apprehending
the person should be used, specifically with the warrant being
the issue.

If the warrant is for a violent crime, it's knowledge might be
very useful.

I understand but if there is a warrant issued for a violent crime it
should be under investigation and pursuit by other means.

It very well could be.

Some kind of compromise is needed to stop the "profiling" concerns.

It's also consistent with law that a stop for one infraction isn't
cause for arrest for another. A database search is convenient but
not necessarily legal, especially if the initial infraction is a
busted taillight.

Do they issue warrants for such offenses? I can see nothing illegal
in searching
the law enforcement's data base for warrants.
--

Freedom Isn't Free!



You are all arguing the policies police can use as they exist now.

That was not the point of my "proposal".

I was trying to address the issue of people getting shot because
they are stopped for a minor infraction and then try to bolt
because the police then attempt to arrest for an outstanding
warrant.

If the stop was *because* of the outstanding warrant ... fine,
arrest the person.

If the stop was for a broken taillight, expired tags or
inspection sticker ... that's the offense they should be
guilty of and receive a ticket.

I know this doesn't make sense to most. It's not common
sense.Â* But the ability of the police to arrest
you for something else in your record that had nothing
to do with the reason for stopping the person in the
first place, will result in these
shootings and killings to continue.

Attempted robbery is not a death sentence felony.
Drug dealing is not a death sentence felony.
Failure to pay child support is not a death
penalty crime.

If someone is guilty of the above, they should be
located and arrested on the merit of the outstanding
warrant, not for a traffic violation that it seems
too often escalates into a shooting.

I am not "anti-police" nor am I turning into a
screwed-up screaming liberal like some.Â* Just
trying to think of ways to keep people alive.




Part of the answer may be found in "policing" the recruiting, hiring,
and training practices of police departments, and ensuring that they
operate in a civilized way that treats everyone encountered decently,
and that maximum force is used only when the physical danger to the
public or the police is obvious and imminent.

George Floyd was handcuffed and on the ground with four cops
surrounding him. He should have remained there until he was able to be
moved safely. Period.



The jury's verdict was completely justified.

My "proposal" obviously makes little sense if one stays in the
thinking that they have been accustom to.Â* I was simply trying
to think outside the box a little to address racial profiling
that I am 100 percent convinced occurs on a regular basis.

Did you hear or read about the Maryland state cop that shot and
killed a teenage white female a couple of weeks ago?

Very little to no media coverage about it.Â* Why?

No, but I did read of a state trooper here who shot a kit who pointed an
"airsoft" pistol at him.

--
* Lock up Trump and his family of grifters. *

On Wed, 21 Apr 2021 18:33:45 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 4/21/2021 4:49 PM, John wrote:
On Wed, 21 Apr 2021 09:37:28 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 4/20/2021 7:27 PM, John wrote:
On Tue, 20 Apr 2021 07:20:01 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 4/20/2021 6:51 AM, John wrote:
On Tue, 20 Apr 2021 06:30:56 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:


Been thinking about the race related violence and deaths that seem to be
constantly in the news. The media is fixated on the issue of racial
profiling of minorities, especially black folks who are often being
singled out for stopping by police for minor traffic infractions that
escalate into arrests, resisting and too often violence that result in
deaths.

My thought:


When a officer stops a vehicle for a minor traffic infraction,
he or she runs a "check" via radio on the driver's (and sometimes
passenger's) license or ID. That check automatically includes a
search for any outstanding warrants for that person. If a warrant
exists, the person is often cuffed and arrested .... not for the
minor traffic infraction that they were stopped for ... but for
the outstanding bench warrant.

This often turns into resisting arrest with violent results.

This is standard operating procedure for law enforcement.
Not blaming them ... it's just "how it's done".

Maybe that needs to change.

What if outstanding warrants were not automatically included in
the "check" at the time of the vehicle being stopped?

The stop should be only related to the crime or infraction that caused
the police to stop the person, be it for speeding, a broken
tail light or whatever. It should not be an excuse to check for
anything else, based on the officer's suspicions.

If a person has an outstanding warrant, the search for him or her
is a different issue altogether and other means of apprehending
the person should be used, specifically with the warrant being
the issue.

If the warrant is for a violent crime, it's knowledge might be very useful.

I understand but if there is a warrant issued for a violent crime it
should be under investigation and pursuit by other means.

It very well could be.

Some kind of compromise is needed to stop the "profiling" concerns.

It's also consistent with law that a stop for one infraction isn't
cause for arrest for another. A database search is convenient but
not necessarily legal, especially if the initial infraction is a
busted taillight.

Do they issue warrants for such offenses? I can see nothing illegal in searching
the law enforcement's data base for warrants.
--

Freedom Isn't Free!



You are all arguing the policies police can use as they exist now.

That was not the point of my "proposal".

I was trying to address the issue of people getting shot because
they are stopped for a minor infraction and then try to bolt
because the police then attempt to arrest for an outstanding
warrant.

If the stop was *because* of the outstanding warrant ... fine,
arrest the person.

If the stop was for a broken taillight, expired tags or
inspection sticker ... that's the offense they should be
guilty of and receive a ticket.

I know this doesn't make sense to most. It's not common
sense. But the ability of the police to arrest
you for something else in your record that had nothing
to do with the reason for stopping the person in the
first place, will result in these
shootings and killings to continue.

Attempted robbery is not a death sentence felony.
Drug dealing is not a death sentence felony.
Failure to pay child support is not a death
penalty crime.

If someone is guilty of the above, they should be
located and arrested on the merit of the outstanding
warrant, not for a traffic violation that it seems
too often escalates into a shooting.

I am not "anti-police" nor am I turning into a
screwed-up screaming liberal like some. Just
trying to think of ways to keep people alive.

If an individual is a criminal and gets caught because of a traffic violation,
so be it.

I'd rather that than have him get caught running out of a 7/11 after shooting
the cashier.



Again, that is not what I am discussing. Forget it.

OK.
--

Freedom Isn't Free!

On Wed, 21 Apr 2021 18:24:57 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 4/21/2021 4:55 PM, John wrote:
On Wed, 21 Apr 2021 09:41:10 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 4/20/2021 4:23 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 20 Apr 2021 06:30:56 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:


Been thinking about the race related violence and deaths that seem to be
constantly in the news. The media is fixated on the issue of racial
profiling of minorities, especially black folks who are often being
singled out for stopping by police for minor traffic infractions that
escalate into arrests, resisting and too often violence that result in
deaths.

My thought:


When a officer stops a vehicle for a minor traffic infraction,
he or she runs a "check" via radio on the driver's (and sometimes
passenger's) license or ID. That check automatically includes a
search for any outstanding warrants for that person. If a warrant
exists, the person is often cuffed and arrested .... not for the
minor traffic infraction that they were stopped for ... but for
the outstanding bench warrant.

This often turns into resisting arrest with violent results.

This is standard operating procedure for law enforcement.
Not blaming them ... it's just "how it's done".

Maybe that needs to change.

What if outstanding warrants were not automatically included in
the "check" at the time of the vehicle being stopped?

The stop should be only related to the crime or infraction that caused
the police to stop the person, be it for speeding, a broken
tail light or whatever. It should not be an excuse to check for
anything else, based on the officer's suspicions.

If a person has an outstanding warrant, the search for him or her
is a different issue altogether and other means of apprehending
the person should be used, specifically with the warrant being
the issue.

Cops would be quick to point out, traffic stops solve more felonies
and result in more felony arrests than detective work. Without traffic
stops about half of the drug war wouldn't be able to be prosecuted.
Cops call a traffic stop a "tool", AKA a way to get around your
rights. (searches, interrogations without Miranda etc)
They are not going to give that up.

Look at it another way. If they catch a wanted serial killer on a
traffic stop, do you want him driving away with a speeding ticket and
a smile on his face?



Every case of a serial killer on the loose that I've read about
results in a dedicated and massive manhunt for the
person. Cops don't start stopping every car on the road
searching for him.


That doesn't mean the killer couldn't be caught while stopped for an infraction.
Suppose a felony warrant is discovered at a sobriety checkpoint?

John, I am not debating the logic or reasoning of running checks if
stopped for a traffic violation.

I am questioning using them as a racially profiling tool due to the
number of unnecessary shootings and deaths. I've heard all the
arguments .... "Don't resist and you won't get shot" ... and I
fundamentally agree with them.

But I am not black or a minority. (as far as I know) :-)

I agree that stops should not be made based on race, and I believe many are. I
also believe motorcyclists shouldn't be targeted for sobriety checks, but I
believe many are.

--

Freedom Isn't Free!