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Boat crash in Ft. Lauderdale
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Boat crash in Ft. Lauderdale
wrote:
On Fri, 3 Jan 2020 07:00:02 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 1/2/2020 7:23 PM, wrote: On Thu, 2 Jan 2020 17:32:39 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 1/2/2020 11:34 AM, wrote: On Thu, 2 Jan 2020 07:14:10 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 1/2/2020 1:31 AM, wrote: On Wed, 1 Jan 2020 22:50:10 -0500 (EST), Justan Ohlphart wrote: Wrote in message: On Wed, 01 Jan 2020 13:00:28 -0500, John H. wrote:On Wed, 1 Jan 2020 16:45:16 -0000 (UTC), Bill wrote:John H. wrote: On Tue, 31 Dec 2019 21:13:43 -0500, Alex wrote: Last night... https://wsvn.com/news/local/several-injured-after-boat-crashes-into-jetty-near-fort-lauderdale/ Cocktails? Not every jetty shows up on a GPS. That happened a few times in Deale, MD, when folks would follow the GPS to get home. Midnight and speed. He was not going slow to get that far up the rocks a 42’ boat.For sure speed. Same thing happens in Deale. Going fast and taking the line offered by the GPS hasbeen the problem more than once. Everyone knows I am the real Luddite here but I fear modernelectronics is taking the place of basic seamanship and the importanceof local knowledge. Why do you fear modern ways of navigating? If you should ever decide to expand your horizons, you might embrace some of the newer technology available. Did you read what John wrote? People who trust their GPS blindly, hit things that are not in the database. The database for the bay here is pretty much useless anyway unless you just accept "don't go there" as an answer. The other issue is, if your electronics fail, do you just drop anchor and call sea tow, hoping they can triangulate your position on their radio or something? I know people who think their Garmin Chart Plotter is all they ever need. They don't even have a compass and no charts on board ... if they could read them in the first place. If that chart plotter craps out they are screwed, particularly at night. OTOH I navigate at night using local landmarks (radio towers, condos, mangrove islands I recognize) and simply knowing where I am and where I am going. Greg, your feelings are pretty much exactly how I felt when I first got into ocean boating. But once I graduated to the larger boats equipped with GPS, chart plotters and radar I realized that technology had much to offer over the old ways. I still had paper charts aboard and obviously a compass but found that the only time I had to use the charts was to program way-points into the chart plotter before getting underway in the morning. Never had to revert to navigating by charts and compass alone. I saw that the Navy is going back to teaching celestial navigation to their crews so somebody must think it is important. I suppose someone pointed out the GPS satellites might only last a couple days in a real war. I am not saying these new things are not handy. I am just saying everyone is depending on technology too much and forgetting basic skills. It is not just boating. Stand next to a broken cash register and watch the kid try to make change. It is scary. The Navy is teaching the basics of celestial navigation at the Academy only to midshipmen but it's in no way intended to be a serious navigation tool or method. Part of the reason is a public relations thing after a Navy ship ran aground, but it had nothing to do with failure of GPS or other electronic navigation systems. In other words .... it was operator error. Today, if the GPS system went down, half of our precision guided weaponry wouldn't work either ... or be totally inaccurate. I guess that is why that even the tertiary powers are trying to get anti satellite capability. To put your mind at ease: :-) Military navigation systems (including those aboard ships) are not necessarily dependent on GPS. The systems developed originally for nuke subs are now part of the navigation systems aboard surface ships, missles, etc. The system is called "Inertial Navigation System" (INS) and can work in concert with GPS or independently without GPS. Over the years the components and computers used for INS have been perfected, miniaturized and are incredibly accurate even without GPS input. https://aerospace.honeywell.com/en/learn/products/navigation-and-radios/talin-marine-inertial-navigation-system Yup that is pretty amazing stuff And with lasers and semiconductors, beats the hell out of ring gyros, etc. of Vietnam era. |
Boat crash in Ft. Lauderdale
Tim wrote:
- show quoted text - I saw that the Navy is going back to teaching celestial navigation to their crews so somebody must think it is important. I suppose someone pointed out the GPS satellites might only last a couple days in a real war. ......... I’d heard Morse code is coming back too. Even for military pilots. I’d think it’s a good deal You always had to learn Morse as a military pilot. Just not very fast. As the identifiers on navigation aids was Morse. When I worked on TACAN, we just looked at the tabs to make sure it was set up correctly. |
Boat crash in Ft. Lauderdale
wrote:
On Fri, 03 Jan 2020 17:22:56 -0500, wrote: On Fri, 03 Jan 2020 15:06:00 -0500, wrote: On Fri, 03 Jan 2020 13:31:42 -0500, wrote: On Fri, 3 Jan 2020 07:00:02 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 1/2/2020 7:23 PM, wrote: On Thu, 2 Jan 2020 17:32:39 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 1/2/2020 11:34 AM, wrote: On Thu, 2 Jan 2020 07:14:10 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 1/2/2020 1:31 AM, wrote: On Wed, 1 Jan 2020 22:50:10 -0500 (EST), Justan Ohlphart wrote: Wrote in message: On Wed, 01 Jan 2020 13:00:28 -0500, John H. wrote:On Wed, 1 Jan 2020 16:45:16 -0000 (UTC), Bill wrote:John H. wrote: On Tue, 31 Dec 2019 21:13:43 -0500, Alex wrote: Last night... https://wsvn.com/news/local/several-injured-after-boat-crashes-into-jetty-near-fort-lauderdale/ Cocktails? Not every jetty shows up on a GPS. That happened a few times in Deale, MD, when folks would follow the GPS to get home. Midnight and speed. He was not going slow to get that far up the rocks a 42 boat.For sure speed. Same thing happens in Deale. Going fast and taking the line offered by the GPS hasbeen the problem more than once. Everyone knows I am the real Luddite here but I fear modernelectronics is taking the place of basic seamanship and the importanceof local knowledge. Why do you fear modern ways of navigating? If you should ever decide to expand your horizons, you might embrace some of the newer technology available. Did you read what John wrote? People who trust their GPS blindly, hit things that are not in the database. The database for the bay here is pretty much useless anyway unless you just accept "don't go there" as an answer. The other issue is, if your electronics fail, do you just drop anchor and call sea tow, hoping they can triangulate your position on their radio or something? I know people who think their Garmin Chart Plotter is all they ever need. They don't even have a compass and no charts on board ... if they could read them in the first place. If that chart plotter craps out they are screwed, particularly at night. OTOH I navigate at night using local landmarks (radio towers, condos, mangrove islands I recognize) and simply knowing where I am and where I am going. Greg, your feelings are pretty much exactly how I felt when I first got into ocean boating. But once I graduated to the larger boats equipped with GPS, chart plotters and radar I realized that technology had much to offer over the old ways. I still had paper charts aboard and obviously a compass but found that the only time I had to use the charts was to program way-points into the chart plotter before getting underway in the morning. Never had to revert to navigating by charts and compass alone. I saw that the Navy is going back to teaching celestial navigation to their crews so somebody must think it is important. I suppose someone pointed out the GPS satellites might only last a couple days in a real war. I am not saying these new things are not handy. I am just saying everyone is depending on technology too much and forgetting basic skills. It is not just boating. Stand next to a broken cash register and watch the kid try to make change. It is scary. The Navy is teaching the basics of celestial navigation at the Academy only to midshipmen but it's in no way intended to be a serious navigation tool or method. Part of the reason is a public relations thing after a Navy ship ran aground, but it had nothing to do with failure of GPS or other electronic navigation systems. In other words .... it was operator error. Today, if the GPS system went down, half of our precision guided weaponry wouldn't work either ... or be totally inaccurate. I guess that is why that even the tertiary powers are trying to get anti satellite capability. To put your mind at ease: :-) Military navigation systems (including those aboard ships) are not necessarily dependent on GPS. The systems developed originally for nuke subs are now part of the navigation systems aboard surface ships, missles, etc. The system is called "Inertial Navigation System" (INS) and can work in concert with GPS or independently without GPS. Over the years the components and computers used for INS have been perfected, miniaturized and are incredibly accurate even without GPS input. https://aerospace.honeywell.com/en/learn/products/navigation-and-radios/talin-marine-inertial-navigation-system Yup that is pretty amazing stuff === It certainly is. One of the things that really amazes me is electronic "gyroscopes". All of the older IN systems used mechanical gyros but nowadays the whole thing is on a microchip that senses motion by comparing the phase difference of light beams going in opposite directions. There was an article in Tech Briefs about that too. I grew up with a gyro, spun up with air, to some unbelievable speed in a box the size of a keg cooler. It was a heavy honker that would keep spinning for a day or so if you lost power. === The Naiad stabilizer system on our trawler uses a gyro driven by hydraulic fluid. It's hidden away inside a fairly beefy housing but considerably smaller than a beer keg. You can still hear it spinning for several minutes after shutting the engines down. When the boat starts to roll, the gyro activates a set of small valves, that in turn activate a set of much larger valves, similar in concept to a power relay. The larger valves control hydraulic cylinders which rotate fins under the boat and counteract the rolling motion. The whole thing was designed and built by aerospace engineers who have a very high opinion of their $$$ product. The system works well but unfortunately it's also a high maintenance item. http://www.naiad.com/rollstabilizer.asp KISS! The battleships used Magnetic Amplifiers to control the 16” guns. Forgot how they worked anymore, but they could sense the roll of the ship. |
Boat crash in Ft. Lauderdale
On Sat, 04 Jan 2020 00:00:52 -0500, wrote:
On Fri, 03 Jan 2020 17:22:56 -0500, wrote: On Fri, 03 Jan 2020 15:06:00 -0500, wrote: On Fri, 03 Jan 2020 13:31:42 -0500, wrote: On Fri, 3 Jan 2020 07:00:02 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 1/2/2020 7:23 PM, wrote: On Thu, 2 Jan 2020 17:32:39 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 1/2/2020 11:34 AM, wrote: On Thu, 2 Jan 2020 07:14:10 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 1/2/2020 1:31 AM, wrote: On Wed, 1 Jan 2020 22:50:10 -0500 (EST), Justan Ohlphart wrote: Wrote in message: On Wed, 01 Jan 2020 13:00:28 -0500, John H. wrote:On Wed, 1 Jan 2020 16:45:16 -0000 (UTC), Bill wrote:John H. wrote: On Tue, 31 Dec 2019 21:13:43 -0500, Alex wrote: Last night... https://wsvn.com/news/local/several-injured-after-boat-crashes-into-jetty-near-fort-lauderdale/ Cocktails? Not every jetty shows up on a GPS. That happened a few times in Deale, MD, when folks would follow the GPS to get home. Midnight and speed. He was not going slow to get that far up the rocks ina 42 boat.For sure speed. Same thing happens in Deale. Going fast and taking the line offered by the GPS hasbeen the problem more than once. Everyone knows I am the real Luddite here but I fear modernelectronics is taking the place of basic seamanship and the importanceof local knowledge. Why do you fear modern ways of navigating? If you should ever decide to expand your horizons, you might embrace some of the newer technology available. Did you read what John wrote? People who trust their GPS blindly, hit things that are not in the database. The database for the bay here is pretty much useless anyway unless you just accept "don't go there" as an answer. The other issue is, if your electronics fail, do you just drop anchor and call sea tow, hoping they can triangulate your position on their radio or something? I know people who think their Garmin Chart Plotter is all they ever need. They don't even have a compass and no charts on board ... if they could read them in the first place. If that chart plotter craps out they are screwed, particularly at night. OTOH I navigate at night using local landmarks (radio towers, condos, mangrove islands I recognize) and simply knowing where I am and where I am going. Greg, your feelings are pretty much exactly how I felt when I first got into ocean boating. But once I graduated to the larger boats equipped with GPS, chart plotters and radar I realized that technology had much to offer over the old ways. I still had paper charts aboard and obviously a compass but found that the only time I had to use the charts was to program way-points into the chart plotter before getting underway in the morning. Never had to revert to navigating by charts and compass alone. I saw that the Navy is going back to teaching celestial navigation to their crews so somebody must think it is important. I suppose someone pointed out the GPS satellites might only last a couple days in a real war. I am not saying these new things are not handy. I am just saying everyone is depending on technology too much and forgetting basic skills. It is not just boating. Stand next to a broken cash register and watch the kid try to make change. It is scary. The Navy is teaching the basics of celestial navigation at the Academy only to midshipmen but it's in no way intended to be a serious navigation tool or method. Part of the reason is a public relations thing after a Navy ship ran aground, but it had nothing to do with failure of GPS or other electronic navigation systems. In other words .... it was operator error. Today, if the GPS system went down, half of our precision guided weaponry wouldn't work either ... or be totally inaccurate. I guess that is why that even the tertiary powers are trying to get anti satellite capability. To put your mind at ease: :-) Military navigation systems (including those aboard ships) are not necessarily dependent on GPS. The systems developed originally for nuke subs are now part of the navigation systems aboard surface ships, missles, etc. The system is called "Inertial Navigation System" (INS) and can work in concert with GPS or independently without GPS. Over the years the components and computers used for INS have been perfected, miniaturized and are incredibly accurate even without GPS input. https://aerospace.honeywell.com/en/learn/products/navigation-and-radios/talin-marine-inertial-navigation-system Yup that is pretty amazing stuff === It certainly is. One of the things that really amazes me is electronic "gyroscopes". All of the older IN systems used mechanical gyros but nowadays the whole thing is on a microchip that senses motion by comparing the phase difference of light beams going in opposite directions. There was an article in Tech Briefs about that too. I grew up with a gyro, spun up with air, to some unbelievable speed in a box the size of a keg cooler. It was a heavy honker that would keep spinning for a day or so if you lost power. === The Naiad stabilizer system on our trawler uses a gyro driven by hydraulic fluid. It's hidden away inside a fairly beefy housing but considerably smaller than a beer keg. You can still hear it spinning for several minutes after shutting the engines down. When the boat starts to roll, the gyro activates a set of small valves, that in turn activate a set of much larger valves, similar in concept to a power relay. The larger valves control hydraulic cylinders which rotate fins under the boat and counteract the rolling motion. The whole thing was designed and built by aerospace engineers who have a very high opinion of their $$$ product. The system works well but unfortunately it's also a high maintenance item. http://www.naiad.com/rollstabilizer.asp And this sentence is the last in the description of each model: "The Model 252 is built to last and is virtually maintenance-free." Shame on 'em! |
Boat crash in Ft. Lauderdale
On Fri, 03 Jan 2020 13:47:10 -0500, John H. - show quoted text - === I'm sorry, the number you are calling is not in service at this time... beep Does anyone remember picking up the phone and getting a human operator that said: "Number please?" —— I do! |
Boat crash in Ft. Lauderdale
On Sat, 04 Jan 2020 00:00:52 -0500,
wrote: On Fri, 03 Jan 2020 17:22:56 -0500, wrote: On Fri, 03 Jan 2020 15:06:00 -0500, wrote: On Fri, 03 Jan 2020 13:31:42 -0500, wrote: On Fri, 3 Jan 2020 07:00:02 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 1/2/2020 7:23 PM, wrote: On Thu, 2 Jan 2020 17:32:39 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 1/2/2020 11:34 AM, wrote: On Thu, 2 Jan 2020 07:14:10 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 1/2/2020 1:31 AM, wrote: On Wed, 1 Jan 2020 22:50:10 -0500 (EST), Justan Ohlphart wrote: Wrote in message: On Wed, 01 Jan 2020 13:00:28 -0500, John H. wrote:On Wed, 1 Jan 2020 16:45:16 -0000 (UTC), Bill wrote:John H. wrote: On Tue, 31 Dec 2019 21:13:43 -0500, Alex wrote: Last night... https://wsvn.com/news/local/several-injured-after-boat-crashes-into-jetty-near-fort-lauderdale/ Cocktails? Not every jetty shows up on a GPS. That happened a few times in Deale, MD, when folks would follow the GPS to get home. Midnight and speed. He was not going slow to get that far up the rocks ina 42’ boat.For sure speed. Same thing happens in Deale. Going fast and taking the line offered by the GPS hasbeen the problem more than once. Everyone knows I am the real Luddite here but I fear modernelectronics is taking the place of basic seamanship and the importanceof local knowledge. Why do you fear modern ways of navigating? If you should ever decide to expand your horizons, you might embrace some of the newer technology available. Did you read what John wrote? People who trust their GPS blindly, hit things that are not in the database. The database for the bay here is pretty much useless anyway unless you just accept "don't go there" as an answer. The other issue is, if your electronics fail, do you just drop anchor and call sea tow, hoping they can triangulate your position on their radio or something? I know people who think their Garmin Chart Plotter is all they ever need. They don't even have a compass and no charts on board ... if they could read them in the first place. If that chart plotter craps out they are screwed, particularly at night. OTOH I navigate at night using local landmarks (radio towers, condos, mangrove islands I recognize) and simply knowing where I am and where I am going. Greg, your feelings are pretty much exactly how I felt when I first got into ocean boating. But once I graduated to the larger boats equipped with GPS, chart plotters and radar I realized that technology had much to offer over the old ways. I still had paper charts aboard and obviously a compass but found that the only time I had to use the charts was to program way-points into the chart plotter before getting underway in the morning. Never had to revert to navigating by charts and compass alone. I saw that the Navy is going back to teaching celestial navigation to their crews so somebody must think it is important. I suppose someone pointed out the GPS satellites might only last a couple days in a real war. I am not saying these new things are not handy. I am just saying everyone is depending on technology too much and forgetting basic skills. It is not just boating. Stand next to a broken cash register and watch the kid try to make change. It is scary. The Navy is teaching the basics of celestial navigation at the Academy only to midshipmen but it's in no way intended to be a serious navigation tool or method. Part of the reason is a public relations thing after a Navy ship ran aground, but it had nothing to do with failure of GPS or other electronic navigation systems. In other words .... it was operator error. Today, if the GPS system went down, half of our precision guided weaponry wouldn't work either ... or be totally inaccurate. I guess that is why that even the tertiary powers are trying to get anti satellite capability. To put your mind at ease: :-) Military navigation systems (including those aboard ships) are not necessarily dependent on GPS. The systems developed originally for nuke subs are now part of the navigation systems aboard surface ships, missles, etc. The system is called "Inertial Navigation System" (INS) and can work in concert with GPS or independently without GPS. Over the years the components and computers used for INS have been perfected, miniaturized and are incredibly accurate even without GPS input. https://aerospace.honeywell.com/en/learn/products/navigation-and-radios/talin-marine-inertial-navigation-system Yup that is pretty amazing stuff === It certainly is. One of the things that really amazes me is electronic "gyroscopes". All of the older IN systems used mechanical gyros but nowadays the whole thing is on a microchip that senses motion by comparing the phase difference of light beams going in opposite directions. There was an article in Tech Briefs about that too. I grew up with a gyro, spun up with air, to some unbelievable speed in a box the size of a keg cooler. It was a heavy honker that would keep spinning for a day or so if you lost power. === The Naiad stabilizer system on our trawler uses a gyro driven by hydraulic fluid. It's hidden away inside a fairly beefy housing but considerably smaller than a beer keg. You can still hear it spinning for several minutes after shutting the engines down. When the boat starts to roll, the gyro activates a set of small valves, that in turn activate a set of much larger valves, similar in concept to a power relay. The larger valves control hydraulic cylinders which rotate fins under the boat and counteract the rolling motion. The whole thing was designed and built by aerospace engineers who have a very high opinion of their $$$ product. The system works well but unfortunately it's also a high maintenance item. http://www.naiad.com/rollstabilizer.asp That sounds like the stabilization of a 5"/38. It was all hydraulic using a "heart cam" in each axis and the only place the spool valve was happy was in the "V" at the top of the heart. This was originally a product of the 20s-30s I think but it was certainly pre WWII. I never actually worked on it but I did take the course ~55 years ago. It didn't seem to fail that often. I guess sometime old school is better ;-) |
Boat crash in Ft. Lauderdale
On Sat, 04 Jan 2020 00:03:29 -0500,
wrote: On Fri, 03 Jan 2020 15:54:05 -0500, wrote: On Fri, 3 Jan 2020 11:05:50 -0800 (PST), Tim wrote: - show quoted text - I saw that the Navy is going back to teaching celestial navigation to their crews so somebody must think it is important. I suppose someone pointed out the GPS satellites might only last a couple days in a real war. ......... I’d heard Morse code is coming back too. Even for military pilots. I’d think it’s a good deal I bet "flashing light" could still be handy in this age of stealth ships. You light yourself up as soon as you key a mike. I bet they also have a laser high speed link they can establish between ships. There is no hardware reason not to. Sampling the stable element signal from the fire control system along with a feedback loop, would allow you to keep the laser on target in the roughest seas. === It's entirely possible but probably secret if it exists. I'd use an infrared laser that would be invisible to the human eye. The idea of light based data channels is no secret. They just have not gained as wide acceptance as 2.4gz. The potential bandwidth is actually greater and they do use IR. I agree I don't remember hearing about the Navy using it but it seems too good to ignore. |
Boat crash in Ft. Lauderdale
On Sat, 4 Jan 2020 05:22:03 -0000 (UTC), Bill
wrote: Tim wrote: - show quoted text - I saw that the Navy is going back to teaching celestial navigation to their crews so somebody must think it is important. I suppose someone pointed out the GPS satellites might only last a couple days in a real war. ......... I’d heard Morse code is coming back too. Even for military pilots. I’d think it’s a good deal You always had to learn Morse as a military pilot. Just not very fast. As the identifiers on navigation aids was Morse. When I worked on TACAN, we just looked at the tabs to make sure it was set up correctly. We had to be able to copy 6 WPM in boot camp. |
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