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Boat crash in Ft. Lauderdale
On Fri, 3 Jan 2020 11:05:50 -0800 (PST), Tim
wrote: - show quoted text - I saw that the Navy is going back to teaching celestial navigation to their crews so somebody must think it is important. I suppose someone pointed out the GPS satellites might only last a couple days in a real war. ......... I’d heard Morse code is coming back too. Even for military pilots. I’d think it’s a good deal === SW Tom will be thrilled. |
Boat crash in Ft. Lauderdale
On Fri, 03 Jan 2020 13:47:10 -0500, John H.
wrote: On Fri, 03 Jan 2020 13:43:01 -0500, wrote: On Fri, 03 Jan 2020 11:12:10 -0500, wrote: On Thu, 2 Jan 2020 17:48:30 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: Don't think we were talking "seamanship". That's a wide ranging subject. Boating with "local knowledge" really isn't celestial navigation either. I think very few of us .... with the exception of Wayne ... really needs to know how to navigate by the stars. === I studied celestial navigation back in the early 80s when it was still required for ocean navigation. I own an inexpensive sextant and have taken a few sights with it but don't carry it on the boat since we have multiple, redundant GPS units. Back in the day we used to sail offshore from the Cape Cod Canal up to Maine using paper charts, compass and dead reckoning. Making landfall in Maine on a foggy, windy morning had an element of uncertainty and excitement but always ended up within a mile or so of where we expected. I could still navigate by compass, charts and dead reckoning if the entire GPS system went out but it would take a while to get used to the uncertainty factor. There are tricks of the trade for dealing with positional uncertainty but they are rapidly becoming a lost art. There seem to be a lot of "lost arts" in this age of technology. We always assume the technology will just be there. As long as we have our cell phones, we can always give you a call! :) The problem with that is I probably won't have my cell phone with me. |
Boat crash in Ft. Lauderdale
On Fri, 3 Jan 2020 11:05:50 -0800 (PST), Tim
wrote: - show quoted text - I saw that the Navy is going back to teaching celestial navigation to their crews so somebody must think it is important. I suppose someone pointed out the GPS satellites might only last a couple days in a real war. ......... I’d heard Morse code is coming back too. Even for military pilots. I’d think it’s a good deal I bet "flashing light" could still be handy in this age of stealth ships. You light yourself up as soon as you key a mike. I bet they also have a laser high speed link they can establish between ships. There is no hardware reason not to. Sampling the stable element signal from the fire control system along with a feedback loop, would allow you to keep the laser on target in the roughest seas. |
Boat crash in Ft. Lauderdale
On Fri, 03 Jan 2020 15:13:19 -0500, wrote:
On Fri, 03 Jan 2020 13:47:10 -0500, John H. wrote: On Fri, 03 Jan 2020 13:43:01 -0500, wrote: On Fri, 03 Jan 2020 11:12:10 -0500, wrote: On Thu, 2 Jan 2020 17:48:30 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: Don't think we were talking "seamanship". That's a wide ranging subject. Boating with "local knowledge" really isn't celestial navigation either. I think very few of us .... with the exception of Wayne ... really needs to know how to navigate by the stars. === I studied celestial navigation back in the early 80s when it was still required for ocean navigation. I own an inexpensive sextant and have taken a few sights with it but don't carry it on the boat since we have multiple, redundant GPS units. Back in the day we used to sail offshore from the Cape Cod Canal up to Maine using paper charts, compass and dead reckoning. Making landfall in Maine on a foggy, windy morning had an element of uncertainty and excitement but always ended up within a mile or so of where we expected. I could still navigate by compass, charts and dead reckoning if the entire GPS system went out but it would take a while to get used to the uncertainty factor. There are tricks of the trade for dealing with positional uncertainty but they are rapidly becoming a lost art. There seem to be a lot of "lost arts" in this age of technology. We always assume the technology will just be there. As long as we have our cell phones, we can always give you a call! :) === I'm sorry, the number you are calling is not in service at this time... beep Does anyone remember picking up the phone and getting a human operator that said: "Number please?" Only a few of us are as old as you are. My earliest is when we had separate rings. You could pick up on your neighbor's ring and monitor. (Not that anyone ever did that!) |
Boat crash in Ft. Lauderdale
On 1/3/2020 3:06 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 03 Jan 2020 13:31:42 -0500, wrote: On Fri, 3 Jan 2020 07:00:02 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 1/2/2020 7:23 PM, wrote: On Thu, 2 Jan 2020 17:32:39 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 1/2/2020 11:34 AM, wrote: On Thu, 2 Jan 2020 07:14:10 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 1/2/2020 1:31 AM, wrote: On Wed, 1 Jan 2020 22:50:10 -0500 (EST), Justan Ohlphart wrote: Wrote in message: On Wed, 01 Jan 2020 13:00:28 -0500, John H. wrote:On Wed, 1 Jan 2020 16:45:16 -0000 (UTC), Bill wrote:John H. wrote: On Tue, 31 Dec 2019 21:13:43 -0500, Alex wrote: Last night... https://wsvn.com/news/local/several-injured-after-boat-crashes-into-jetty-near-fort-lauderdale/ Cocktails? Not every jetty shows up on a GPS. That happened a few times in Deale, MD, when folks would follow the GPS to get home. Midnight and speed. He was not going slow to get that far up the rocks ina 42’ boat.For sure speed. Same thing happens in Deale. Going fast and taking the line offered by the GPS hasbeen the problem more than once. Everyone knows I am the real Luddite here but I fear modernelectronics is taking the place of basic seamanship and the importanceof local knowledge. Why do you fear modern ways of navigating? If you should ever decide to expand your horizons, you might embrace some of the newer technology available. Did you read what John wrote? People who trust their GPS blindly, hit things that are not in the database. The database for the bay here is pretty much useless anyway unless you just accept "don't go there" as an answer. The other issue is, if your electronics fail, do you just drop anchor and call sea tow, hoping they can triangulate your position on their radio or something? I know people who think their Garmin Chart Plotter is all they ever need. They don't even have a compass and no charts on board ... if they could read them in the first place. If that chart plotter craps out they are screwed, particularly at night. OTOH I navigate at night using local landmarks (radio towers, condos, mangrove islands I recognize) and simply knowing where I am and where I am going. Greg, your feelings are pretty much exactly how I felt when I first got into ocean boating. But once I graduated to the larger boats equipped with GPS, chart plotters and radar I realized that technology had much to offer over the old ways. I still had paper charts aboard and obviously a compass but found that the only time I had to use the charts was to program way-points into the chart plotter before getting underway in the morning. Never had to revert to navigating by charts and compass alone. I saw that the Navy is going back to teaching celestial navigation to their crews so somebody must think it is important. I suppose someone pointed out the GPS satellites might only last a couple days in a real war. I am not saying these new things are not handy. I am just saying everyone is depending on technology too much and forgetting basic skills. It is not just boating. Stand next to a broken cash register and watch the kid try to make change. It is scary. The Navy is teaching the basics of celestial navigation at the Academy only to midshipmen but it's in no way intended to be a serious navigation tool or method. Part of the reason is a public relations thing after a Navy ship ran aground, but it had nothing to do with failure of GPS or other electronic navigation systems. In other words .... it was operator error. Today, if the GPS system went down, half of our precision guided weaponry wouldn't work either ... or be totally inaccurate. I guess that is why that even the tertiary powers are trying to get anti satellite capability. To put your mind at ease: :-) Military navigation systems (including those aboard ships) are not necessarily dependent on GPS. The systems developed originally for nuke subs are now part of the navigation systems aboard surface ships, missles, etc. The system is called "Inertial Navigation System" (INS) and can work in concert with GPS or independently without GPS. Over the years the components and computers used for INS have been perfected, miniaturized and are incredibly accurate even without GPS input. https://aerospace.honeywell.com/en/learn/products/navigation-and-radios/talin-marine-inertial-navigation-system Yup that is pretty amazing stuff === It certainly is. One of the things that really amazes me is electronic "gyroscopes". All of the older IN systems used mechanical gyros but nowadays the whole thing is on a microchip that senses motion by comparing the phase difference of light beams going in opposite directions. Called a "Ring Laser Gyro". I have posted before about my limited experience with the polishing and thin film coatings use for the optics for them. The optical mirror types have the greatest precision but most now use wound fiberoptics for the laser paths. Not quite as accurate as the optical laser mirror type but far less expensive and still more accurate than they need to be. |
Boat crash in Ft. Lauderdale
On Fri, 03 Jan 2020 15:06:00 -0500,
wrote: On Fri, 03 Jan 2020 13:31:42 -0500, wrote: On Fri, 3 Jan 2020 07:00:02 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 1/2/2020 7:23 PM, wrote: On Thu, 2 Jan 2020 17:32:39 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 1/2/2020 11:34 AM, wrote: On Thu, 2 Jan 2020 07:14:10 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 1/2/2020 1:31 AM, wrote: On Wed, 1 Jan 2020 22:50:10 -0500 (EST), Justan Ohlphart wrote: Wrote in message: On Wed, 01 Jan 2020 13:00:28 -0500, John H. wrote:On Wed, 1 Jan 2020 16:45:16 -0000 (UTC), Bill wrote:John H. wrote: On Tue, 31 Dec 2019 21:13:43 -0500, Alex wrote: Last night... https://wsvn.com/news/local/several-injured-after-boat-crashes-into-jetty-near-fort-lauderdale/ Cocktails? Not every jetty shows up on a GPS. That happened a few times in Deale, MD, when folks would follow the GPS to get home. Midnight and speed. He was not going slow to get that far up the rocks ina 42’ boat.For sure speed. Same thing happens in Deale. Going fast and taking the line offered by the GPS hasbeen the problem more than once. Everyone knows I am the real Luddite here but I fear modernelectronics is taking the place of basic seamanship and the importanceof local knowledge. Why do you fear modern ways of navigating? If you should ever decide to expand your horizons, you might embrace some of the newer technology available. Did you read what John wrote? People who trust their GPS blindly, hit things that are not in the database. The database for the bay here is pretty much useless anyway unless you just accept "don't go there" as an answer. The other issue is, if your electronics fail, do you just drop anchor and call sea tow, hoping they can triangulate your position on their radio or something? I know people who think their Garmin Chart Plotter is all they ever need. They don't even have a compass and no charts on board ... if they could read them in the first place. If that chart plotter craps out they are screwed, particularly at night. OTOH I navigate at night using local landmarks (radio towers, condos, mangrove islands I recognize) and simply knowing where I am and where I am going. Greg, your feelings are pretty much exactly how I felt when I first got into ocean boating. But once I graduated to the larger boats equipped with GPS, chart plotters and radar I realized that technology had much to offer over the old ways. I still had paper charts aboard and obviously a compass but found that the only time I had to use the charts was to program way-points into the chart plotter before getting underway in the morning. Never had to revert to navigating by charts and compass alone. I saw that the Navy is going back to teaching celestial navigation to their crews so somebody must think it is important. I suppose someone pointed out the GPS satellites might only last a couple days in a real war. I am not saying these new things are not handy. I am just saying everyone is depending on technology too much and forgetting basic skills. It is not just boating. Stand next to a broken cash register and watch the kid try to make change. It is scary. The Navy is teaching the basics of celestial navigation at the Academy only to midshipmen but it's in no way intended to be a serious navigation tool or method. Part of the reason is a public relations thing after a Navy ship ran aground, but it had nothing to do with failure of GPS or other electronic navigation systems. In other words .... it was operator error. Today, if the GPS system went down, half of our precision guided weaponry wouldn't work either ... or be totally inaccurate. I guess that is why that even the tertiary powers are trying to get anti satellite capability. To put your mind at ease: :-) Military navigation systems (including those aboard ships) are not necessarily dependent on GPS. The systems developed originally for nuke subs are now part of the navigation systems aboard surface ships, missles, etc. The system is called "Inertial Navigation System" (INS) and can work in concert with GPS or independently without GPS. Over the years the components and computers used for INS have been perfected, miniaturized and are incredibly accurate even without GPS input. https://aerospace.honeywell.com/en/learn/products/navigation-and-radios/talin-marine-inertial-navigation-system Yup that is pretty amazing stuff === It certainly is. One of the things that really amazes me is electronic "gyroscopes". All of the older IN systems used mechanical gyros but nowadays the whole thing is on a microchip that senses motion by comparing the phase difference of light beams going in opposite directions. There was an article in Tech Briefs about that too. I grew up with a gyro, spun up with air, to some unbelievable speed in a box the size of a keg cooler. It was a heavy honker that would keep spinning for a day or so if you lost power. |
Boat crash in Ft. Lauderdale
On Fri, 03 Jan 2020 15:13:19 -0500,
wrote: On Fri, 03 Jan 2020 13:47:10 -0500, John H. wrote: On Fri, 03 Jan 2020 13:43:01 -0500, wrote: On Fri, 03 Jan 2020 11:12:10 -0500, wrote: On Thu, 2 Jan 2020 17:48:30 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: Don't think we were talking "seamanship". That's a wide ranging subject. Boating with "local knowledge" really isn't celestial navigation either. I think very few of us .... with the exception of Wayne ... really needs to know how to navigate by the stars. === I studied celestial navigation back in the early 80s when it was still required for ocean navigation. I own an inexpensive sextant and have taken a few sights with it but don't carry it on the boat since we have multiple, redundant GPS units. Back in the day we used to sail offshore from the Cape Cod Canal up to Maine using paper charts, compass and dead reckoning. Making landfall in Maine on a foggy, windy morning had an element of uncertainty and excitement but always ended up within a mile or so of where we expected. I could still navigate by compass, charts and dead reckoning if the entire GPS system went out but it would take a while to get used to the uncertainty factor. There are tricks of the trade for dealing with positional uncertainty but they are rapidly becoming a lost art. There seem to be a lot of "lost arts" in this age of technology. We always assume the technology will just be there. As long as we have our cell phones, we can always give you a call! :) === I'm sorry, the number you are calling is not in service at this time... beep No, it says "This geezer hasn't setup his voice mail yet", or words to that effect. Does anyone remember picking up the phone and getting a human operator that said: "Number please?" |
Boat crash in Ft. Lauderdale
On Fri, 03 Jan 2020 16:12:25 -0500, John H.
wrote: On Fri, 03 Jan 2020 15:13:19 -0500, wrote: On Fri, 03 Jan 2020 13:47:10 -0500, John H. wrote: On Fri, 03 Jan 2020 13:43:01 -0500, wrote: On Fri, 03 Jan 2020 11:12:10 -0500, wrote: On Thu, 2 Jan 2020 17:48:30 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: Don't think we were talking "seamanship". That's a wide ranging subject. Boating with "local knowledge" really isn't celestial navigation either. I think very few of us .... with the exception of Wayne ... really needs to know how to navigate by the stars. === I studied celestial navigation back in the early 80s when it was still required for ocean navigation. I own an inexpensive sextant and have taken a few sights with it but don't carry it on the boat since we have multiple, redundant GPS units. Back in the day we used to sail offshore from the Cape Cod Canal up to Maine using paper charts, compass and dead reckoning. Making landfall in Maine on a foggy, windy morning had an element of uncertainty and excitement but always ended up within a mile or so of where we expected. I could still navigate by compass, charts and dead reckoning if the entire GPS system went out but it would take a while to get used to the uncertainty factor. There are tricks of the trade for dealing with positional uncertainty but they are rapidly becoming a lost art. There seem to be a lot of "lost arts" in this age of technology. We always assume the technology will just be there. As long as we have our cell phones, we can always give you a call! :) === I'm sorry, the number you are calling is not in service at this time... beep Does anyone remember picking up the phone and getting a human operator that said: "Number please?" Only a few of us are as old as you are. My earliest is when we had separate rings. You could pick up on your neighbor's ring and monitor. (Not that anyone ever did that!) I was a city boy in those days, everyone had a dial phone if they had a phone at all but it was all ala carte. You paid for "call units" and long distance was ridiculous. I suppose you all heard about calling home, person to person and asking for yourself. It was just to say you were OK, for free. |
Boat crash in Ft. Lauderdale
On Fri, 03 Jan 2020 17:30:52 -0500, wrote:
On Fri, 03 Jan 2020 16:12:25 -0500, John H. wrote: On Fri, 03 Jan 2020 15:13:19 -0500, wrote: On Fri, 03 Jan 2020 13:47:10 -0500, John H. wrote: On Fri, 03 Jan 2020 13:43:01 -0500, wrote: On Fri, 03 Jan 2020 11:12:10 -0500, wrote: On Thu, 2 Jan 2020 17:48:30 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: Don't think we were talking "seamanship". That's a wide ranging subject. Boating with "local knowledge" really isn't celestial navigation either. I think very few of us .... with the exception of Wayne ... really needs to know how to navigate by the stars. === I studied celestial navigation back in the early 80s when it was still required for ocean navigation. I own an inexpensive sextant and have taken a few sights with it but don't carry it on the boat since we have multiple, redundant GPS units. Back in the day we used to sail offshore from the Cape Cod Canal up to Maine using paper charts, compass and dead reckoning. Making landfall in Maine on a foggy, windy morning had an element of uncertainty and excitement but always ended up within a mile or so of where we expected. I could still navigate by compass, charts and dead reckoning if the entire GPS system went out but it would take a while to get used to the uncertainty factor. There are tricks of the trade for dealing with positional uncertainty but they are rapidly becoming a lost art. There seem to be a lot of "lost arts" in this age of technology. We always assume the technology will just be there. As long as we have our cell phones, we can always give you a call! :) === I'm sorry, the number you are calling is not in service at this time... beep Does anyone remember picking up the phone and getting a human operator that said: "Number please?" Only a few of us are as old as you are. My earliest is when we had separate rings. You could pick up on your neighbor's ring and monitor. (Not that anyone ever did that!) I was a city boy in those days, everyone had a dial phone if they had a phone at all but it was all ala carte. You paid for "call units" and long distance was ridiculous. I suppose you all heard about calling home, person to person and asking for yourself. It was just to say you were OK, for free. When I got drafted, that's how I kept in touch! |
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