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Boat crash in Ft. Lauderdale
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Boat crash in Ft. Lauderdale
Alex wrote:
Last night... https://wsvn.com/news/local/several-...rt-lauderdale/ Cocktails? Amazing how little damage to the hull from the video. Alcohol, lots of alcohol fueled that boat. |
Boat crash in Ft. Lauderdale
On Tue, 31 Dec 2019 21:13:43 -0500, Alex wrote:
Last night... https://wsvn.com/news/local/several-...rt-lauderdale/ Cocktails? Not every jetty shows up on a GPS. That happened a few times in Deale, MD, when folks would follow the GPS to get home. |
Boat crash in Ft. Lauderdale
John H. wrote:
On Tue, 31 Dec 2019 21:13:43 -0500, Alex wrote: Last night... https://wsvn.com/news/local/several-...rt-lauderdale/ Cocktails? Not every jetty shows up on a GPS. That happened a few times in Deale, MD, when folks would follow the GPS to get home. Midnight and speed. He was not going slow to get that far up the rocks in a 42β boat. |
Boat crash in Ft. Lauderdale
On Wed, 1 Jan 2020 16:45:16 -0000 (UTC), Bill wrote:
John H. wrote: On Tue, 31 Dec 2019 21:13:43 -0500, Alex wrote: Last night... https://wsvn.com/news/local/several-...rt-lauderdale/ Cocktails? Not every jetty shows up on a GPS. That happened a few times in Deale, MD, when folks would follow the GPS to get home. Midnight and speed. He was not going slow to get that far up the rocks in a 42 boat. For sure speed. Same thing happens in Deale. Going fast and taking the line offered by the GPS has been the problem more than once. |
Boat crash in Ft. Lauderdale
On Wed, 01 Jan 2020 13:00:28 -0500, John H.
wrote: On Wed, 1 Jan 2020 16:45:16 -0000 (UTC), Bill wrote: John H. wrote: On Tue, 31 Dec 2019 21:13:43 -0500, Alex wrote: Last night... https://wsvn.com/news/local/several-...rt-lauderdale/ Cocktails? Not every jetty shows up on a GPS. That happened a few times in Deale, MD, when folks would follow the GPS to get home. Midnight and speed. He was not going slow to get that far up the rocks in a 42β boat. For sure speed. Same thing happens in Deale. Going fast and taking the line offered by the GPS has been the problem more than once. Everyone knows I am the real Luddite here but I fear modern electronics is taking the place of basic seamanship and the importance of local knowledge. |
Boat crash in Ft. Lauderdale
wrote:
On Wed, 01 Jan 2020 13:00:28 -0500, John H. wrote: On Wed, 1 Jan 2020 16:45:16 -0000 (UTC), Bill wrote: John H. wrote: On Tue, 31 Dec 2019 21:13:43 -0500, Alex wrote: Last night... https://wsvn.com/news/local/several-...rt-lauderdale/ Cocktails? Not every jetty shows up on a GPS. That happened a few times in Deale, MD, when folks would follow the GPS to get home. Midnight and speed. He was not going slow to get that far up the rocks in a 42β boat. For sure speed. Same thing happens in Deale. Going fast and taking the line offered by the GPS has been the problem more than once. Everyone knows I am the real Luddite here but I fear modern electronics is taking the place of basic seamanship and the importance of local knowledge. They were from Indiana but the driver has a $10MM home in Ft, Lauderdale: https://www.local10.com/news/local/2...derdale-jetty/ |
Boat crash in Ft. Lauderdale
Wrote in message:
On Wed, 01 Jan 2020 13:00:28 -0500, John H. wrote:On Wed, 1 Jan 2020 16:45:16 -0000 (UTC), Bill wrote:John H. wrote: On Tue, 31 Dec 2019 21:13:43 -0500, Alex wrote: Last night... https://wsvn.com/news/local/several-injured-after-boat-crashes-into-jetty-near-fort-lauderdale/ Cocktails? Not every jetty shows up on a GPS. That happened a few times in Deale, MD, when folks would follow the GPS to get home. Midnight and speed. He was not going slow to get that far up the rocks ina 42+IBk boat.For sure speed. Same thing happens in Deale. Going fast and taking the line offered by the GPS hasbeen the problem more than once. Everyone knows I am the real Luddite here but I fear modernelectronics is taking the place of basic seamanship and the importanceof local knowledge. Why do you fear modern ways of navigating? If you should ever decide to expand your horizons, you might embrace some of the newer technology available. -- .. ----Android NewsGroup Reader---- http://usenet.sinaapp.com/ |
Boat crash in Ft. Lauderdale
On Wed, 1 Jan 2020 22:50:10 -0500 (EST), Justan Ohlphart
wrote: Wrote in message: On Wed, 01 Jan 2020 13:00:28 -0500, John H. wrote:On Wed, 1 Jan 2020 16:45:16 -0000 (UTC), Bill wrote:John H. wrote: On Tue, 31 Dec 2019 21:13:43 -0500, Alex wrote: Last night... https://wsvn.com/news/local/several-injured-after-boat-crashes-into-jetty-near-fort-lauderdale/ Cocktails? Not every jetty shows up on a GPS. That happened a few times in Deale, MD, when folks would follow the GPS to get home. Midnight and speed. He was not going slow to get that far up the rocks ina 42β boat.For sure speed. Same thing happens in Deale. Going fast and taking the line offered by the GPS hasbeen the problem more than once. Everyone knows I am the real Luddite here but I fear modernelectronics is taking the place of basic seamanship and the importanceof local knowledge. Why do you fear modern ways of navigating? If you should ever decide to expand your horizons, you might embrace some of the newer technology available. Did you read what John wrote? People who trust their GPS blindly, hit things that are not in the database. The database for the bay here is pretty much useless anyway unless you just accept "don't go there" as an answer. The other issue is, if your electronics fail, do you just drop anchor and call sea tow, hoping they can triangulate your position on their radio or something? I know people who think their Garmin Chart Plotter is all they ever need. They don't even have a compass and no charts on board ... if they could read them in the first place. If that chart plotter craps out they are screwed, particularly at night. OTOH I navigate at night using local landmarks (radio towers, condos, mangrove islands I recognize) and simply knowing where I am and where I am going. |
Boat crash in Ft. Lauderdale
On 1/1/2020 10:50 PM, Justan Ohlphart wrote:
Wrote in message: On Wed, 01 Jan 2020 13:00:28 -0500, John H. wrote:On Wed, 1 Jan 2020 16:45:16 -0000 (UTC), Bill wrote:John H. wrote: On Tue, 31 Dec 2019 21:13:43 -0500, Alex wrote: Last night... https://wsvn.com/news/local/several-injured-after-boat-crashes-into-jetty-near-fort-lauderdale/ Cocktails? Not every jetty shows up on a GPS. That happened a few times in Deale, MD, when folks would follow the GPS to get home. Midnight and speed. He was not going slow to get that far up the rocks ina 42β boat.For sure speed. Same thing happens in Deale. Going fast and taking the line offered by the GPS hasbeen the problem more than once. Everyone knows I am the real Luddite here but I fear modernelectronics is taking the place of basic seamanship and the importanceof local knowledge. Why do you fear modern ways of navigating? If you should ever decide to expand your horizons, you might embrace some of the newer technology available. I think that the advent of GPS, chart plotters and radar (if understood and used properly) have made boating (and aviation) much safer than in the days of compasses and paper charts. |
Boat crash in Ft. Lauderdale
On 1/2/2020 1:31 AM, wrote:
On Wed, 1 Jan 2020 22:50:10 -0500 (EST), Justan Ohlphart wrote: Wrote in message: On Wed, 01 Jan 2020 13:00:28 -0500, John H. wrote:On Wed, 1 Jan 2020 16:45:16 -0000 (UTC), Bill wrote:John H. wrote: On Tue, 31 Dec 2019 21:13:43 -0500, Alex wrote: Last night... https://wsvn.com/news/local/several-injured-after-boat-crashes-into-jetty-near-fort-lauderdale/ Cocktails? Not every jetty shows up on a GPS. That happened a few times in Deale, MD, when folks would follow the GPS to get home. Midnight and speed. He was not going slow to get that far up the rocks ina 42β boat.For sure speed. Same thing happens in Deale. Going fast and taking the line offered by the GPS hasbeen the problem more than once. Everyone knows I am the real Luddite here but I fear modernelectronics is taking the place of basic seamanship and the importanceof local knowledge. Why do you fear modern ways of navigating? If you should ever decide to expand your horizons, you might embrace some of the newer technology available. Did you read what John wrote? People who trust their GPS blindly, hit things that are not in the database. The database for the bay here is pretty much useless anyway unless you just accept "don't go there" as an answer. The other issue is, if your electronics fail, do you just drop anchor and call sea tow, hoping they can triangulate your position on their radio or something? I know people who think their Garmin Chart Plotter is all they ever need. They don't even have a compass and no charts on board ... if they could read them in the first place. If that chart plotter craps out they are screwed, particularly at night. OTOH I navigate at night using local landmarks (radio towers, condos, mangrove islands I recognize) and simply knowing where I am and where I am going. Greg, your feelings are pretty much exactly how I felt when I first got into ocean boating. But once I graduated to the larger boats equipped with GPS, chart plotters and radar I realized that technology had much to offer over the old ways. I still had paper charts aboard and obviously a compass but found that the only time I had to use the charts was to program way-points into the chart plotter before getting underway in the morning. Never had to revert to navigating by charts and compass alone. |
Boat crash in Ft. Lauderdale
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Boat crash in Ft. Lauderdale
On Thu, 2 Jan 2020 07:05:19 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote: On 1/1/2020 10:50 PM, Justan Ohlphart wrote: Wrote in message: On Wed, 01 Jan 2020 13:00:28 -0500, John H. wrote:On Wed, 1 Jan 2020 16:45:16 -0000 (UTC), Bill wrote:John H. wrote: On Tue, 31 Dec 2019 21:13:43 -0500, Alex wrote: Last night... https://wsvn.com/news/local/several-injured-after-boat-crashes-into-jetty-near-fort-lauderdale/ Cocktails? Not every jetty shows up on a GPS. That happened a few times in Deale, MD, when folks would follow the GPS to get home. Midnight and speed. He was not going slow to get that far up the rocks ina 42 boat.For sure speed. Same thing happens in Deale. Going fast and taking the line offered by the GPS hasbeen the problem more than once. Everyone knows I am the real Luddite here but I fear modernelectronics is taking the place of basic seamanship and the importanceof local knowledge. Why do you fear modern ways of navigating? If you should ever decide to expand your horizons, you might embrace some of the newer technology available. I think that the advent of GPS, chart plotters and radar (if understood and used properly) have made boating (and aviation) much safer than in the days of compasses and paper charts. === There's no question about it. I started long distance cruising in 1974 when we bought our first sailboat big enough to sleep on. We had no electronic aids at all other than an old fashioned, flashing light depth sounder, and an inexpensive radio direction finder which was cumbersome to use and very imprecise. The RDF and depth sounder put us ahead of many other boat of that time however, and we navigated for many years and thousands of miles with nothing else. Dead reckoning and shore bearings were the gold standards of coastal navigation until the mid 1980s when Loran-C became widely available. Suddenly we now knew where we were within 100 yards or so, at least most of the time. |
Boat crash in Ft. Lauderdale
On 1/2/2020 1:31 AM, wrote:
On Wed, 1 Jan 2020 22:50:10 -0500 (EST), Justan Ohlphart wrote: Wrote in message: On Wed, 01 Jan 2020 13:00:28 -0500, John H. wrote:On Wed, 1 Jan 2020 16:45:16 -0000 (UTC), Bill wrote:John H. wrote: On Tue, 31 Dec 2019 21:13:43 -0500, Alex wrote: Last night... https://wsvn.com/news/local/several-injured-after-boat-crashes-into-jetty-near-fort-lauderdale/ Cocktails? Not every jetty shows up on a GPS. That happened a few times in Deale, MD, when folks would follow the GPS to get home. Midnight and speed. He was not going slow to get that far up the rocks ina 42β boat.For sure speed. Same thing happens in Deale. Going fast and taking the line offered by the GPS hasbeen the problem more than once. Everyone knows I am the real Luddite here but I fear modernelectronics is taking the place of basic seamanship and the importanceof local knowledge. Why do you fear modern ways of navigating? If you should ever decide to expand your horizons, you might embrace some of the newer technology available. Did you read what John wrote? People who trust their GPS blindly, hit things that are not in the database. The database for the bay here is pretty much useless anyway unless you just accept "don't go there" as an answer. The other issue is, if your electronics fail, do you just drop anchor and call sea tow, hoping they can triangulate your position on their radio or something? I know people who think their Garmin Chart Plotter is all they ever need. They don't even have a compass and no charts on board ... if they could read them in the first place. If that chart plotter craps out they are screwed, particularly at night. OTOH I navigate at night using local landmarks (radio towers, condos, mangrove islands I recognize) and simply knowing where I am and where I am going. I did. Knowing where you are and where you are going is a lot easier if you have help from a variety of electronic and mechanical instruments. Having local knowledge helps if you are local and you can see what is around you. I remember when all I had was a compass, binoculars, a chart and a Ray Jefferson RDF.Dividers and parallel rules came shortly after. We've come a long way since then. |
Boat crash in Ft. Lauderdale
On Thu, 2 Jan 2020 07:05:19 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote: On 1/1/2020 10:50 PM, Justan Ohlphart wrote: Wrote in message: On Wed, 01 Jan 2020 13:00:28 -0500, John H. wrote:On Wed, 1 Jan 2020 16:45:16 -0000 (UTC), Bill wrote:John H. wrote: On Tue, 31 Dec 2019 21:13:43 -0500, Alex wrote: Last night... https://wsvn.com/news/local/several-injured-after-boat-crashes-into-jetty-near-fort-lauderdale/ Cocktails? Not every jetty shows up on a GPS. That happened a few times in Deale, MD, when folks would follow the GPS to get home. Midnight and speed. He was not going slow to get that far up the rocks ina 42β boat.For sure speed. Same thing happens in Deale. Going fast and taking the line offered by the GPS hasbeen the problem more than once. Everyone knows I am the real Luddite here but I fear modernelectronics is taking the place of basic seamanship and the importanceof local knowledge. Why do you fear modern ways of navigating? If you should ever decide to expand your horizons, you might embrace some of the newer technology available. I think that the advent of GPS, chart plotters and radar (if understood and used properly) have made boating (and aviation) much safer than in the days of compasses and paper charts. That still doesn't mean you can avoid learning the basics of seamanship and navigation. For a river and bay boater like me, that is all overkill anyway. If I was trying to find a small Caribbean island in a big ocean, I see the need but just trying to avoid a jetty or oyster bar that may not be in the database in the first place is just giving a false sense of security. |
Boat crash in Ft. Lauderdale
On Thu, 2 Jan 2020 07:14:10 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote: On 1/2/2020 1:31 AM, wrote: On Wed, 1 Jan 2020 22:50:10 -0500 (EST), Justan Ohlphart wrote: Wrote in message: On Wed, 01 Jan 2020 13:00:28 -0500, John H. wrote:On Wed, 1 Jan 2020 16:45:16 -0000 (UTC), Bill wrote:John H. wrote: On Tue, 31 Dec 2019 21:13:43 -0500, Alex wrote: Last night... https://wsvn.com/news/local/several-injured-after-boat-crashes-into-jetty-near-fort-lauderdale/ Cocktails? Not every jetty shows up on a GPS. That happened a few times in Deale, MD, when folks would follow the GPS to get home. Midnight and speed. He was not going slow to get that far up the rocks ina 42β boat.For sure speed. Same thing happens in Deale. Going fast and taking the line offered by the GPS hasbeen the problem more than once. Everyone knows I am the real Luddite here but I fear modernelectronics is taking the place of basic seamanship and the importanceof local knowledge. Why do you fear modern ways of navigating? If you should ever decide to expand your horizons, you might embrace some of the newer technology available. Did you read what John wrote? People who trust their GPS blindly, hit things that are not in the database. The database for the bay here is pretty much useless anyway unless you just accept "don't go there" as an answer. The other issue is, if your electronics fail, do you just drop anchor and call sea tow, hoping they can triangulate your position on their radio or something? I know people who think their Garmin Chart Plotter is all they ever need. They don't even have a compass and no charts on board ... if they could read them in the first place. If that chart plotter craps out they are screwed, particularly at night. OTOH I navigate at night using local landmarks (radio towers, condos, mangrove islands I recognize) and simply knowing where I am and where I am going. Greg, your feelings are pretty much exactly how I felt when I first got into ocean boating. But once I graduated to the larger boats equipped with GPS, chart plotters and radar I realized that technology had much to offer over the old ways. I still had paper charts aboard and obviously a compass but found that the only time I had to use the charts was to program way-points into the chart plotter before getting underway in the morning. Never had to revert to navigating by charts and compass alone. I saw that the Navy is going back to teaching celestial navigation to their crews so somebody must think it is important. I suppose someone pointed out the GPS satellites might only last a couple days in a real war. I am not saying these new things are not handy. I am just saying everyone is depending on technology too much and forgetting basic skills. It is not just boating. Stand next to a broken cash register and watch the kid try to make change. It is scary. |
Boat crash in Ft. Lauderdale
Wayne.B wrote:
On Thu, 2 Jan 2020 07:05:19 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 1/1/2020 10:50 PM, Justan Ohlphart wrote: Wrote in message: On Wed, 01 Jan 2020 13:00:28 -0500, John H. wrote:On Wed, 1 Jan 2020 16:45:16 -0000 (UTC), Bill wrote:John H. wrote: On Tue, 31 Dec 2019 21:13:43 -0500, Alex wrote: Last night... https://wsvn.com/news/local/several-injured-after-boat-crashes-into-jetty-near-fort-lauderdale/ Cocktails? Not every jetty shows up on a GPS. That happened a few times in Deale, MD, when folks would follow the GPS to get home. Midnight and speed. He was not going slow to get that far up the rocks ina 42Β boat.For sure speed. Same thing happens in Deale. Going fast and taking the line offered by the GPS hasbeen the problem more than once. Everyone knows I am the real Luddite here but I fear modernelectronics is taking the place of basic seamanship and the importanceof local knowledge. Why do you fear modern ways of navigating? If you should ever decide to expand your horizons, you might embrace some of the newer technology available. I think that the advent of GPS, chart plotters and radar (if understood and used properly) have made boating (and aviation) much safer than in the days of compasses and paper charts. === There's no question about it. I started long distance cruising in 1974 when we bought our first sailboat big enough to sleep on. We had no electronic aids at all other than an old fashioned, flashing light depth sounder, and an inexpensive radio direction finder which was cumbersome to use and very imprecise. The RDF and depth sounder put us ahead of many other boat of that time however, and we navigated for many years and thousands of miles with nothing else. Dead reckoning and shore bearings were the gold standards of coastal navigation until the mid 1980s when Loran-C became widely available. Suddenly we now knew where we were within 100 yards or so, at least most of the time. I can remember as a kid in the 1950βs, using a cheap portable radio with a directional antenna to help navigate back to the Golden Gate Bridge in the fog from the Farallon Islands. A coupe radio stations had a tower by the eastern end of the Oakland Bay Bridge which somewhat lined up with the Gate. |
Boat crash in Ft. Lauderdale
Wrote in message:
On Thu, 2 Jan 2020 07:14:10 -0500, "Mr. wrote:On 1/2/2020 1:31 AM, wrote: On Wed, 1 Jan 2020 22:50:10 -0500 (EST), Justan Ohlphart wrote: Wrote in message: On Wed, 01 Jan 2020 13:00:28 -0500, John H. wrote:On Wed, 1 Jan 2020 16:45:16 -0000 (UTC), Bill wrote:John H. wrote: On Tue, 31 Dec 2019 21:13:43 -0500, Alex wrote: Last night... https://wsvn.com/news/local/several-injured-after-boat-crashes-into-jetty-near-fort-lauderdale/ Cocktails? Not every jetty shows up on a GPS. That happened a few times in Deale, MD, when folks would follow the GPS to get home. Midnight and speed. He was not going slow to get that far up the rocks ina 42+IBk boat.For sure speed. Same thing happens in Deale. Going fast and taking the line offered by the GPS hasbeen the problem more than once. Everyone knows I am the real Luddite here but I fear modernelectronics is taking the place of basic seamanship and the importanceof local knowledge. Why do you fear modern ways of navigating? If you should ever decide to expand your horizons, you might embrace some of the newer technology available. Did you read what John wrote? People who trust their GPS blindly, hit things that are not in the database. The database for the bay here is pretty much useless anyway unless you just accept "don't go there" as an answer. The other issue is, if your electronics fail, do you just drop anchor and call sea tow, hoping they can triangulate your position on their radio or something? I know people who think their Garmin Chart Plotter is all they ever need. They don't even have a compass and no charts on board ... if they could read them in the first place. If that chart plotter craps out they are screwed, particularly at night. OTOH I navigate at night using local landmarks (radio towers, condos, mangrove islands I recognize) and simply knowing where I am and where I am going. Greg, your feelings are pretty much exactly how I felt when I first gotinto ocean boating. But once I graduated to the larger boats equippedwith GPS, chart plotters and radar I realized that technology had muchto offer over the old ways.I still had paper charts aboard and obviously a compass but found thatthe only time I had to use the charts was to program way-points intothe chart plotter before getting underway in the morning. Never hadto revert to navigating by charts and compass alone.I saw that the Navy is going back to teaching celestial navigation totheir crews so somebody must think it is important. I suppose someonepointed out the GPS satellites might only last a couple days in a realwar. I am not saying these new things are not handy. I am just sayingeveryone is depending on technology too much and forgetting basicskills. It is not just boating. Stand next to a broken cash registerand watch the kid try to make change. It is scary. Pretty soon all us folks who remember how it used to be will be dead and material currency will be a collectors item. Wars will be fought with joysticks. Future combatants are being trained by video games. ----Android NewsGroup Reader---- http://usenet.sinaapp.com/ |
Boat crash in Ft. Lauderdale
On Thu, 2 Jan 2020 17:04:44 -0000 (UTC), Bill
wrote: Wayne.B wrote: On Thu, 2 Jan 2020 07:05:19 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 1/1/2020 10:50 PM, Justan Ohlphart wrote: Wrote in message: On Wed, 01 Jan 2020 13:00:28 -0500, John H. wrote:On Wed, 1 Jan 2020 16:45:16 -0000 (UTC), Bill wrote:John H. wrote: On Tue, 31 Dec 2019 21:13:43 -0500, Alex wrote: Last night... https://wsvn.com/news/local/several-injured-after-boat-crashes-into-jetty-near-fort-lauderdale/ Cocktails? Not every jetty shows up on a GPS. That happened a few times in Deale, MD, when folks would follow the GPS to get home. Midnight and speed. He was not going slow to get that far up the rocks ina 42? boat.For sure speed. Same thing happens in Deale. Going fast and taking the line offered by the GPS hasbeen the problem more than once. Everyone knows I am the real Luddite here but I fear modernelectronics is taking the place of basic seamanship and the importanceof local knowledge. Why do you fear modern ways of navigating? If you should ever decide to expand your horizons, you might embrace some of the newer technology available. I think that the advent of GPS, chart plotters and radar (if understood and used properly) have made boating (and aviation) much safer than in the days of compasses and paper charts. === There's no question about it. I started long distance cruising in 1974 when we bought our first sailboat big enough to sleep on. We had no electronic aids at all other than an old fashioned, flashing light depth sounder, and an inexpensive radio direction finder which was cumbersome to use and very imprecise. The RDF and depth sounder put us ahead of many other boat of that time however, and we navigated for many years and thousands of miles with nothing else. Dead reckoning and shore bearings were the gold standards of coastal navigation until the mid 1980s when Loran-C became widely available. Suddenly we now knew where we were within 100 yards or so, at least most of the time. I can remember as a kid in the 1950βs, using a cheap portable radio with a directional antenna to help navigate back to the Golden Gate Bridge in the fog from the Farallon Islands. A coupe radio stations had a tower by the eastern end of the Oakland Bay Bridge which somewhat lined up with the Gate. I started using the radio towers here for a visual indication of where I was and they all have unique blink rates at night so they are easy to differentiate. It turns out there are three that do an excellent job of marking the path you need to move around in the bay at night and if you also use the 96 K-Rock tower, in conjunction with the bridge lights to get through Big Carlos Pass without hitting the bars on both sides. |
Boat crash in Ft. Lauderdale
On Thu, 2 Jan 2020 12:29:27 -0500 (EST), Justan Ohlphart
wrote: Wrote in message: On Thu, 2 Jan 2020 07:14:10 -0500, "Mr. wrote:On 1/2/2020 1:31 AM, wrote: On Wed, 1 Jan 2020 22:50:10 -0500 (EST), Justan Ohlphart wrote: Wrote in message: On Wed, 01 Jan 2020 13:00:28 -0500, John H. wrote:On Wed, 1 Jan 2020 16:45:16 -0000 (UTC), Bill wrote:John H. wrote: On Tue, 31 Dec 2019 21:13:43 -0500, Alex wrote: Last night... https://wsvn.com/news/local/several-injured-after-boat-crashes-into-jetty-near-fort-lauderdale/ Cocktails? Not every jetty shows up on a GPS. That happened a few times in Deale, MD, when folks would follow the GPS to get home. Midnight and speed. He was not going slow to get that far up the rocks ina 42β boat.For sure speed. Same thing happens in Deale. Going fast and taking the line offered by the GPS hasbeen the problem more than once. Everyone knows I am the real Luddite here but I fear modernelectronics is taking the place of basic seamanship and the importanceof local knowledge. Why do you fear modern ways of navigating? If you should ever decide to expand your horizons, you might embrace some of the newer technology available. Did you read what John wrote? People who trust their GPS blindly, hit things that are not in the database. The database for the bay here is pretty much useless anyway unless you just accept "don't go there" as an answer. The other issue is, if your electronics fail, do you just drop anchor and call sea tow, hoping they can triangulate your position on their radio or something? I know people who think their Garmin Chart Plotter is all they ever need. They don't even have a compass and no charts on board ... if they could read them in the first place. If that chart plotter craps out they are screwed, particularly at night. OTOH I navigate at night using local landmarks (radio towers, condos, mangrove islands I recognize) and simply knowing where I am and where I am going. Greg, your feelings are pretty much exactly how I felt when I first gotinto ocean boating. But once I graduated to the larger boats equippedwith GPS, chart plotters and radar I realized that technology had muchto offer over the old ways.I still had paper charts aboard and obviously a compass but found thatthe only time I had to use the charts was to program way-points intothe chart plotter before getting underway in the morning. Never hadto revert to navigating by charts and compass alone.I saw that the Navy is going back to teaching celestial navigation totheir crews so somebody must think it is important. I suppose someonepointed out the GPS satellites might only last a couple days in a realwar. I am not saying these new things are not handy. I am just sayingeveryone is depending on technology too much and forgetting basicskills. It is not just boating. Stand next to a broken cash registerand watch the kid try to make change. It is scary. Pretty soon all us folks who remember how it used to be will be dead and material currency will be a collectors item. Wars will be fought with joysticks. Future combatants are being trained by video games. Wars may be fought with joysticks but they will be won by a guy with a rifle on the ground. You just have to look at Iraq to see that. We bombed the **** out of them but we needed to occupy the country to actually change anything, even if it was for the worse. |
Boat crash in Ft. Lauderdale
On 1/2/2020 11:34 AM, wrote:
On Thu, 2 Jan 2020 07:14:10 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 1/2/2020 1:31 AM, wrote: On Wed, 1 Jan 2020 22:50:10 -0500 (EST), Justan Ohlphart wrote: Wrote in message: On Wed, 01 Jan 2020 13:00:28 -0500, John H. wrote:On Wed, 1 Jan 2020 16:45:16 -0000 (UTC), Bill wrote:John H. wrote: On Tue, 31 Dec 2019 21:13:43 -0500, Alex wrote: Last night... https://wsvn.com/news/local/several-injured-after-boat-crashes-into-jetty-near-fort-lauderdale/ Cocktails? Not every jetty shows up on a GPS. That happened a few times in Deale, MD, when folks would follow the GPS to get home. Midnight and speed. He was not going slow to get that far up the rocks ina 42β boat.For sure speed. Same thing happens in Deale. Going fast and taking the line offered by the GPS hasbeen the problem more than once. Everyone knows I am the real Luddite here but I fear modernelectronics is taking the place of basic seamanship and the importanceof local knowledge. Why do you fear modern ways of navigating? If you should ever decide to expand your horizons, you might embrace some of the newer technology available. Did you read what John wrote? People who trust their GPS blindly, hit things that are not in the database. The database for the bay here is pretty much useless anyway unless you just accept "don't go there" as an answer. The other issue is, if your electronics fail, do you just drop anchor and call sea tow, hoping they can triangulate your position on their radio or something? I know people who think their Garmin Chart Plotter is all they ever need. They don't even have a compass and no charts on board ... if they could read them in the first place. If that chart plotter craps out they are screwed, particularly at night. OTOH I navigate at night using local landmarks (radio towers, condos, mangrove islands I recognize) and simply knowing where I am and where I am going. Greg, your feelings are pretty much exactly how I felt when I first got into ocean boating. But once I graduated to the larger boats equipped with GPS, chart plotters and radar I realized that technology had much to offer over the old ways. I still had paper charts aboard and obviously a compass but found that the only time I had to use the charts was to program way-points into the chart plotter before getting underway in the morning. Never had to revert to navigating by charts and compass alone. I saw that the Navy is going back to teaching celestial navigation to their crews so somebody must think it is important. I suppose someone pointed out the GPS satellites might only last a couple days in a real war. I am not saying these new things are not handy. I am just saying everyone is depending on technology too much and forgetting basic skills. It is not just boating. Stand next to a broken cash register and watch the kid try to make change. It is scary. The Navy is teaching the basics of celestial navigation at the Academy only to midshipmen but it's in no way intended to be a serious navigation tool or method. Part of the reason is a public relations thing after a Navy ship ran aground, but it had nothing to do with failure of GPS or other electronic navigation systems. In other words .... it was operator error. Today, if the GPS system went down, half of our precision guided weaponry wouldn't work either ... or be totally inaccurate. |
Boat crash in Ft. Lauderdale
On 1/2/2020 11:29 AM, wrote:
On Thu, 2 Jan 2020 07:05:19 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 1/1/2020 10:50 PM, Justan Ohlphart wrote: Wrote in message: On Wed, 01 Jan 2020 13:00:28 -0500, John H. wrote:On Wed, 1 Jan 2020 16:45:16 -0000 (UTC), Bill wrote:John H. wrote: On Tue, 31 Dec 2019 21:13:43 -0500, Alex wrote: Last night... https://wsvn.com/news/local/several-injured-after-boat-crashes-into-jetty-near-fort-lauderdale/ Cocktails? Not every jetty shows up on a GPS. That happened a few times in Deale, MD, when folks would follow the GPS to get home. Midnight and speed. He was not going slow to get that far up the rocks ina 42β boat.For sure speed. Same thing happens in Deale. Going fast and taking the line offered by the GPS hasbeen the problem more than once. Everyone knows I am the real Luddite here but I fear modernelectronics is taking the place of basic seamanship and the importanceof local knowledge. Why do you fear modern ways of navigating? If you should ever decide to expand your horizons, you might embrace some of the newer technology available. I think that the advent of GPS, chart plotters and radar (if understood and used properly) have made boating (and aviation) much safer than in the days of compasses and paper charts. That still doesn't mean you can avoid learning the basics of seamanship and navigation. For a river and bay boater like me, that is all overkill anyway. If I was trying to find a small Caribbean island in a big ocean, I see the need but just trying to avoid a jetty or oyster bar that may not be in the database in the first place is just giving a false sense of security. Don't think we were talking "seamanship". That's a wide ranging subject. Boating with "local knowledge" really isn't celestial navigation either. I think very few of us .... with the exception of Wayne ... really needs to know how to navigate by the stars. Even local boating for me was primarily local knowledge. Even on fishing trips, 30-40 miles off shore didn't require any great navigation skills. In fact, without GPS, it would be almost impossible to find our "secret spot" for cod. Without GPS, I would probably be up to a half mile away. With GPS, I could find the rise on the ocean bottom in 260 feet of water that was our "secret spot" within a couple of yards. If the GPS crapped out, all I really had to do is follow the compass west. Eventually, I'd hit land. |
Boat crash in Ft. Lauderdale
Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 1/2/2020 11:29 AM, wrote: On Thu, 2 Jan 2020 07:05:19 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 1/1/2020 10:50 PM, Justan Ohlphart wrote: Wrote in message: On Wed, 01 Jan 2020 13:00:28 -0500, John H. wrote:On Wed, 1 Jan 2020 16:45:16 -0000 (UTC), Bill wrote:John H. wrote: On Tue, 31 Dec 2019 21:13:43 -0500, Alex wrote: Last night... https://wsvn.com/news/local/several-injured-after-boat-crashes-into-jetty-near-fort-lauderdale/ Cocktails? Not every jetty shows up on a GPS. That happened a few times in Deale, MD, when folks would follow the GPS to get home. Midnight and speed. He was not going slow to get that far up the rocks a 42β boat.For sure speed. Same thing happens in Deale. Going fast and taking the line offered by the GPS hasbeen the problem more than once. Everyone knows I am the real Luddite here but I fear modernelectronics is taking the place of basic seamanship and the importanceof local knowledge. Why do you fear modern ways of navigating? If you should ever decide to expand your horizons, you might embrace some of the newer technology available. I think that the advent of GPS, chart plotters and radar (if understood and used properly) have made boating (and aviation) much safer than in the days of compasses and paper charts. That still doesn't mean you can avoid learning the basics of seamanship and navigation. For a river and bay boater like me, that is all overkill anyway. If I was trying to find a small Caribbean island in a big ocean, I see the need but just trying to avoid a jetty or oyster bar that may not be in the database in the first place is just giving a false sense of security. Don't think we were talking "seamanship". That's a wide ranging subject. Boating with "local knowledge" really isn't celestial navigation either. I think very few of us .... with the exception of Wayne ... really needs to know how to navigate by the stars. Even local boating for me was primarily local knowledge. Even on fishing trips, 30-40 miles off shore didn't require any great navigation skills. In fact, without GPS, it would be almost impossible to find our "secret spot" for cod. Without GPS, I would probably be up to a half mile away. With GPS, I could find the rise on the ocean bottom in 260 feet of water that was our "secret spot" within a couple of yards. If the GPS crapped out, all I really had to do is follow the compass west. Eventually, I'd hit land. Unfortunately, if I headed west looking for land, odds are I would have empty tank before land. |
Boat crash in Ft. Lauderdale
On Thursday, January 2, 2020 at 6:17:08 PM UTC-5, Bill wrote:
Mr. Luddite wrote: On 1/2/2020 11:29 AM, wrote: On Thu, 2 Jan 2020 07:05:19 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 1/1/2020 10:50 PM, Justan Ohlphart wrote: Wrote in message: On Wed, 01 Jan 2020 13:00:28 -0500, John H. wrote:On Wed, 1 Jan 2020 16:45:16 -0000 (UTC), Bill wrote:John H. wrote: On Tue, 31 Dec 2019 21:13:43 -0500, Alex wrote: Last night... https://wsvn.com/news/local/several-injured-after-boat-crashes-into-jetty-near-fort-lauderdale/ Cocktails? Not every jetty shows up on a GPS. That happened a few times in Deale, MD, when folks would follow the GPS to get home. Midnight and speed. He was not going slow to get that far up the rocks a 42β boat.For sure speed. Same thing happens in Deale. Going fast and taking the line offered by the GPS hasbeen the problem more than once. Everyone knows I am the real Luddite here but I fear modernelectronics is taking the place of basic seamanship and the importanceof local knowledge. Why do you fear modern ways of navigating? If you should ever decide to expand your horizons, you might embrace some of the newer technology available. I think that the advent of GPS, chart plotters and radar (if understood and used properly) have made boating (and aviation) much safer than in the days of compasses and paper charts. That still doesn't mean you can avoid learning the basics of seamanship and navigation. For a river and bay boater like me, that is all overkill anyway. If I was trying to find a small Caribbean island in a big ocean, I see the need but just trying to avoid a jetty or oyster bar that may not be in the database in the first place is just giving a false sense of security. Don't think we were talking "seamanship". That's a wide ranging subject. |
Boat crash in Ft. Lauderdale
On Thu, 2 Jan 2020 15:30:59 -0800 (PST), Its Me wrote:
On Thursday, January 2, 2020 at 6:17:08 PM UTC-5, Bill wrote: Mr. Luddite wrote: On 1/2/2020 11:29 AM, wrote: On Thu, 2 Jan 2020 07:05:19 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 1/1/2020 10:50 PM, Justan Ohlphart wrote: Wrote in message: On Wed, 01 Jan 2020 13:00:28 -0500, John H. wrote:On Wed, 1 Jan 2020 16:45:16 -0000 (UTC), Bill wrote:John H. wrote: On Tue, 31 Dec 2019 21:13:43 -0500, Alex wrote: Last night... https://wsvn.com/news/local/several-injured-after-boat-crashes-into-jetty-near-fort-lauderdale/ Cocktails? Not every jetty shows up on a GPS. That happened a few times in Deale, MD, when folks would follow the GPS to get home. Midnight and speed. He was not going slow to get that far up the rocks a 42 boat.For sure speed. Same thing happens in Deale. Going fast and taking the line offered by the GPS hasbeen the problem more than once. Everyone knows I am the real Luddite here but I fear modernelectronics is taking the place of basic seamanship and the importanceof local knowledge. Why do you fear modern ways of navigating? If you should ever decide to expand your horizons, you might embrace some of the newer technology available. I think that the advent of GPS, chart plotters and radar (if understood and used properly) have made boating (and aviation) much safer than in the days of compasses and paper charts. That still doesn't mean you can avoid learning the basics of seamanship and navigation. For a river and bay boater like me, that is all overkill anyway. If I was trying to find a small Caribbean island in a big ocean, I see the need but just trying to avoid a jetty or oyster bar that may not be in the database in the first place is just giving a false sense of security. Don't think we were talking "seamanship". That's a wide ranging subject. Boating with "local knowledge" really isn't celestial navigation either. I think very few of us .... with the exception of Wayne ... really needs to know how to navigate by the stars. Even local boating for me was primarily local knowledge. Even on fishing trips, 30-40 miles off shore didn't require any great navigation skills. In fact, without GPS, it would be almost impossible to find our "secret spot" for cod. Without GPS, I would probably be up to a half mile away. With GPS, I could find the rise on the ocean bottom in 260 feet of water that was our "secret spot" within a couple of yards. If the GPS crapped out, all I really had to do is follow the compass west. Eventually, I'd hit land. Unfortunately, if I headed west looking for land, odds are I would have empty tank before land. Turn your compass around. :) LOL! |
Boat crash in Ft. Lauderdale
On Thu, 2 Jan 2020 17:32:39 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote: On 1/2/2020 11:34 AM, wrote: On Thu, 2 Jan 2020 07:14:10 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 1/2/2020 1:31 AM, wrote: On Wed, 1 Jan 2020 22:50:10 -0500 (EST), Justan Ohlphart wrote: Wrote in message: On Wed, 01 Jan 2020 13:00:28 -0500, John H. wrote:On Wed, 1 Jan 2020 16:45:16 -0000 (UTC), Bill wrote:John H. wrote: On Tue, 31 Dec 2019 21:13:43 -0500, Alex wrote: Last night... https://wsvn.com/news/local/several-injured-after-boat-crashes-into-jetty-near-fort-lauderdale/ Cocktails? Not every jetty shows up on a GPS. That happened a few times in Deale, MD, when folks would follow the GPS to get home. Midnight and speed. He was not going slow to get that far up the rocks ina 42β boat.For sure speed. Same thing happens in Deale. Going fast and taking the line offered by the GPS hasbeen the problem more than once. Everyone knows I am the real Luddite here but I fear modernelectronics is taking the place of basic seamanship and the importanceof local knowledge. Why do you fear modern ways of navigating? If you should ever decide to expand your horizons, you might embrace some of the newer technology available. Did you read what John wrote? People who trust their GPS blindly, hit things that are not in the database. The database for the bay here is pretty much useless anyway unless you just accept "don't go there" as an answer. The other issue is, if your electronics fail, do you just drop anchor and call sea tow, hoping they can triangulate your position on their radio or something? I know people who think their Garmin Chart Plotter is all they ever need. They don't even have a compass and no charts on board ... if they could read them in the first place. If that chart plotter craps out they are screwed, particularly at night. OTOH I navigate at night using local landmarks (radio towers, condos, mangrove islands I recognize) and simply knowing where I am and where I am going. Greg, your feelings are pretty much exactly how I felt when I first got into ocean boating. But once I graduated to the larger boats equipped with GPS, chart plotters and radar I realized that technology had much to offer over the old ways. I still had paper charts aboard and obviously a compass but found that the only time I had to use the charts was to program way-points into the chart plotter before getting underway in the morning. Never had to revert to navigating by charts and compass alone. I saw that the Navy is going back to teaching celestial navigation to their crews so somebody must think it is important. I suppose someone pointed out the GPS satellites might only last a couple days in a real war. I am not saying these new things are not handy. I am just saying everyone is depending on technology too much and forgetting basic skills. It is not just boating. Stand next to a broken cash register and watch the kid try to make change. It is scary. The Navy is teaching the basics of celestial navigation at the Academy only to midshipmen but it's in no way intended to be a serious navigation tool or method. Part of the reason is a public relations thing after a Navy ship ran aground, but it had nothing to do with failure of GPS or other electronic navigation systems. In other words .... it was operator error. Today, if the GPS system went down, half of our precision guided weaponry wouldn't work either ... or be totally inaccurate. I guess that is why that even the tertiary powers are trying to get anti satellite capability. |
Boat crash in Ft. Lauderdale
On Thu, 2 Jan 2020 17:48:30 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote: On 1/2/2020 11:29 AM, wrote: On Thu, 2 Jan 2020 07:05:19 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 1/1/2020 10:50 PM, Justan Ohlphart wrote: Wrote in message: On Wed, 01 Jan 2020 13:00:28 -0500, John H. wrote:On Wed, 1 Jan 2020 16:45:16 -0000 (UTC), Bill wrote:John H. wrote: On Tue, 31 Dec 2019 21:13:43 -0500, Alex wrote: Last night... https://wsvn.com/news/local/several-injured-after-boat-crashes-into-jetty-near-fort-lauderdale/ Cocktails? Not every jetty shows up on a GPS. That happened a few times in Deale, MD, when folks would follow the GPS to get home. Midnight and speed. He was not going slow to get that far up the rocks ina 42β boat.For sure speed. Same thing happens in Deale. Going fast and taking the line offered by the GPS hasbeen the problem more than once. Everyone knows I am the real Luddite here but I fear modernelectronics is taking the place of basic seamanship and the importanceof local knowledge. Why do you fear modern ways of navigating? If you should ever decide to expand your horizons, you might embrace some of the newer technology available. I think that the advent of GPS, chart plotters and radar (if understood and used properly) have made boating (and aviation) much safer than in the days of compasses and paper charts. That still doesn't mean you can avoid learning the basics of seamanship and navigation. For a river and bay boater like me, that is all overkill anyway. If I was trying to find a small Caribbean island in a big ocean, I see the need but just trying to avoid a jetty or oyster bar that may not be in the database in the first place is just giving a false sense of security. Don't think we were talking "seamanship". That's a wide ranging subject. Boating with "local knowledge" really isn't celestial navigation either. I think very few of us .... with the exception of Wayne ... really needs to know how to navigate by the stars. Even local boating for me was primarily local knowledge. Even on fishing trips, 30-40 miles off shore didn't require any great navigation skills. In fact, without GPS, it would be almost impossible to find our "secret spot" for cod. Without GPS, I would probably be up to a half mile away. With GPS, I could find the rise on the ocean bottom in 260 feet of water that was our "secret spot" within a couple of yards. If the GPS crapped out, all I really had to do is follow the compass west. Eventually, I'd hit land. Back in the olden days (79-80) my buddy could find his secret spot in the Chesapeake bay just using landmarks onshore and a depth "scratcher". It was a 33 mile run down there from the marina. Now it is trivial to see using google earth and a $59 GPS would put you down on it. 37.736061 -75.934284 Then follow that cut southwest. |
Boat crash in Ft. Lauderdale
On Thu, 2 Jan 2020 23:17:06 -0000 (UTC), Bill
wrote: Mr. Luddite wrote: On 1/2/2020 11:29 AM, wrote: On Thu, 2 Jan 2020 07:05:19 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 1/1/2020 10:50 PM, Justan Ohlphart wrote: Wrote in message: On Wed, 01 Jan 2020 13:00:28 -0500, John H. wrote:On Wed, 1 Jan 2020 16:45:16 -0000 (UTC), Bill wrote:John H. wrote: On Tue, 31 Dec 2019 21:13:43 -0500, Alex wrote: Last night... https://wsvn.com/news/local/several-injured-after-boat-crashes-into-jetty-near-fort-lauderdale/ Cocktails? Not every jetty shows up on a GPS. That happened a few times in Deale, MD, when folks would follow the GPS to get home. Midnight and speed. He was not going slow to get that far up the rocks a 42β boat.For sure speed. Same thing happens in Deale. Going fast and taking the line offered by the GPS hasbeen the problem more than once. Everyone knows I am the real Luddite here but I fear modernelectronics is taking the place of basic seamanship and the importanceof local knowledge. Why do you fear modern ways of navigating? If you should ever decide to expand your horizons, you might embrace some of the newer technology available. I think that the advent of GPS, chart plotters and radar (if understood and used properly) have made boating (and aviation) much safer than in the days of compasses and paper charts. That still doesn't mean you can avoid learning the basics of seamanship and navigation. For a river and bay boater like me, that is all overkill anyway. If I was trying to find a small Caribbean island in a big ocean, I see the need but just trying to avoid a jetty or oyster bar that may not be in the database in the first place is just giving a false sense of security. Don't think we were talking "seamanship". That's a wide ranging subject. Boating with "local knowledge" really isn't celestial navigation either. I think very few of us .... with the exception of Wayne ... really needs to know how to navigate by the stars. Even local boating for me was primarily local knowledge. Even on fishing trips, 30-40 miles off shore didn't require any great navigation skills. In fact, without GPS, it would be almost impossible to find our "secret spot" for cod. Without GPS, I would probably be up to a half mile away. With GPS, I could find the rise on the ocean bottom in 260 feet of water that was our "secret spot" within a couple of yards. If the GPS crapped out, all I really had to do is follow the compass west. Eventually, I'd hit land. Unfortunately, if I headed west looking for land, odds are I would have empty tank before land. Me too. That was how the 5 "lost patrol" guys died. They were over the Atlantic and thought they were in the Gulf. My sailboat buddy did the opposite coming back from Belize. They thought they were in the Atlantic and they were in the Gulf. They decided due North was the best plan. They would hit North Carolina. They hit St Pete. Being a sailboat, fuel was not an issue but food and water were getting pretty serious. |
Boat crash in Ft. Lauderdale
On 1/2/2020 7:34 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 2 Jan 2020 17:48:30 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 1/2/2020 11:29 AM, wrote: On Thu, 2 Jan 2020 07:05:19 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 1/1/2020 10:50 PM, Justan Ohlphart wrote: Wrote in message: On Wed, 01 Jan 2020 13:00:28 -0500, John H. wrote:On Wed, 1 Jan 2020 16:45:16 -0000 (UTC), Bill wrote:John H. wrote: On Tue, 31 Dec 2019 21:13:43 -0500, Alex wrote: Last night... https://wsvn.com/news/local/several-injured-after-boat-crashes-into-jetty-near-fort-lauderdale/ Cocktails? Not every jetty shows up on a GPS. That happened a few times in Deale, MD, when folks would follow the GPS to get home. Midnight and speed. He was not going slow to get that far up the rocks ina 42β boat.For sure speed. Same thing happens in Deale. Going fast and taking the line offered by the GPS hasbeen the problem more than once. Everyone knows I am the real Luddite here but I fear modernelectronics is taking the place of basic seamanship and the importanceof local knowledge. Why do you fear modern ways of navigating? If you should ever decide to expand your horizons, you might embrace some of the newer technology available. I think that the advent of GPS, chart plotters and radar (if understood and used properly) have made boating (and aviation) much safer than in the days of compasses and paper charts. That still doesn't mean you can avoid learning the basics of seamanship and navigation. For a river and bay boater like me, that is all overkill anyway. If I was trying to find a small Caribbean island in a big ocean, I see the need but just trying to avoid a jetty or oyster bar that may not be in the database in the first place is just giving a false sense of security. Don't think we were talking "seamanship". That's a wide ranging subject. Boating with "local knowledge" really isn't celestial navigation either. I think very few of us .... with the exception of Wayne ... really needs to know how to navigate by the stars. Even local boating for me was primarily local knowledge. Even on fishing trips, 30-40 miles off shore didn't require any great navigation skills. In fact, without GPS, it would be almost impossible to find our "secret spot" for cod. Without GPS, I would probably be up to a half mile away. With GPS, I could find the rise on the ocean bottom in 260 feet of water that was our "secret spot" within a couple of yards. If the GPS crapped out, all I really had to do is follow the compass west. Eventually, I'd hit land. Back in the olden days (79-80) my buddy could find his secret spot in the Chesapeake bay just using landmarks onshore and a depth "scratcher". It was a 33 mile run down there from the marina. Now it is trivial to see using google earth and a $59 GPS would put you down on it. 37.736061 -75.934284 Then follow that cut southwest. Difference is that my "secret spot" was 32 miles offshore from Scituate, MA and there are no on-shore landmarks in sight. |
Boat crash in Ft. Lauderdale
On 1/2/2020 7:23 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 2 Jan 2020 17:32:39 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 1/2/2020 11:34 AM, wrote: On Thu, 2 Jan 2020 07:14:10 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 1/2/2020 1:31 AM, wrote: On Wed, 1 Jan 2020 22:50:10 -0500 (EST), Justan Ohlphart wrote: Wrote in message: On Wed, 01 Jan 2020 13:00:28 -0500, John H. wrote:On Wed, 1 Jan 2020 16:45:16 -0000 (UTC), Bill wrote:John H. wrote: On Tue, 31 Dec 2019 21:13:43 -0500, Alex wrote: Last night... https://wsvn.com/news/local/several-injured-after-boat-crashes-into-jetty-near-fort-lauderdale/ Cocktails? Not every jetty shows up on a GPS. That happened a few times in Deale, MD, when folks would follow the GPS to get home. Midnight and speed. He was not going slow to get that far up the rocks ina 42β boat.For sure speed. Same thing happens in Deale. Going fast and taking the line offered by the GPS hasbeen the problem more than once. Everyone knows I am the real Luddite here but I fear modernelectronics is taking the place of basic seamanship and the importanceof local knowledge. Why do you fear modern ways of navigating? If you should ever decide to expand your horizons, you might embrace some of the newer technology available. Did you read what John wrote? People who trust their GPS blindly, hit things that are not in the database. The database for the bay here is pretty much useless anyway unless you just accept "don't go there" as an answer. The other issue is, if your electronics fail, do you just drop anchor and call sea tow, hoping they can triangulate your position on their radio or something? I know people who think their Garmin Chart Plotter is all they ever need. They don't even have a compass and no charts on board ... if they could read them in the first place. If that chart plotter craps out they are screwed, particularly at night. OTOH I navigate at night using local landmarks (radio towers, condos, mangrove islands I recognize) and simply knowing where I am and where I am going. Greg, your feelings are pretty much exactly how I felt when I first got into ocean boating. But once I graduated to the larger boats equipped with GPS, chart plotters and radar I realized that technology had much to offer over the old ways. I still had paper charts aboard and obviously a compass but found that the only time I had to use the charts was to program way-points into the chart plotter before getting underway in the morning. Never had to revert to navigating by charts and compass alone. I saw that the Navy is going back to teaching celestial navigation to their crews so somebody must think it is important. I suppose someone pointed out the GPS satellites might only last a couple days in a real war. I am not saying these new things are not handy. I am just saying everyone is depending on technology too much and forgetting basic skills. It is not just boating. Stand next to a broken cash register and watch the kid try to make change. It is scary. The Navy is teaching the basics of celestial navigation at the Academy only to midshipmen but it's in no way intended to be a serious navigation tool or method. Part of the reason is a public relations thing after a Navy ship ran aground, but it had nothing to do with failure of GPS or other electronic navigation systems. In other words .... it was operator error. Today, if the GPS system went down, half of our precision guided weaponry wouldn't work either ... or be totally inaccurate. I guess that is why that even the tertiary powers are trying to get anti satellite capability. To put your mind at ease: :-) Military navigation systems (including those aboard ships) are not necessarily dependent on GPS. The systems developed originally for nuke subs are now part of the navigation systems aboard surface ships, missles, etc. The system is called "Inertial Navigation System" (INS) and can work in concert with GPS or independently without GPS. Over the years the components and computers used for INS have been perfected, miniaturized and are incredibly accurate even without GPS input. https://aerospace.honeywell.com/en/learn/products/navigation-and-radios/talin-marine-inertial-navigation-system |
Boat crash in Ft. Lauderdale
On Thu, 02 Jan 2020 19:34:18 -0500, wrote:
On Thu, 2 Jan 2020 17:48:30 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 1/2/2020 11:29 AM, wrote: On Thu, 2 Jan 2020 07:05:19 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 1/1/2020 10:50 PM, Justan Ohlphart wrote: Wrote in message: On Wed, 01 Jan 2020 13:00:28 -0500, John H. wrote:On Wed, 1 Jan 2020 16:45:16 -0000 (UTC), Bill wrote:John H. wrote: On Tue, 31 Dec 2019 21:13:43 -0500, Alex wrote: Last night... https://wsvn.com/news/local/several-injured-after-boat-crashes-into-jetty-near-fort-lauderdale/ Cocktails? Not every jetty shows up on a GPS. That happened a few times in Deale, MD, when folks would follow the GPS to get home. Midnight and speed. He was not going slow to get that far up the rocks ina 42 boat.For sure speed. Same thing happens in Deale. Going fast and taking the line offered by the GPS hasbeen the problem more than once. Everyone knows I am the real Luddite here but I fear modernelectronics is taking the place of basic seamanship and the importanceof local knowledge. Why do you fear modern ways of navigating? If you should ever decide to expand your horizons, you might embrace some of the newer technology available. I think that the advent of GPS, chart plotters and radar (if understood and used properly) have made boating (and aviation) much safer than in the days of compasses and paper charts. That still doesn't mean you can avoid learning the basics of seamanship and navigation. For a river and bay boater like me, that is all overkill anyway. If I was trying to find a small Caribbean island in a big ocean, I see the need but just trying to avoid a jetty or oyster bar that may not be in the database in the first place is just giving a false sense of security. Don't think we were talking "seamanship". That's a wide ranging subject. Boating with "local knowledge" really isn't celestial navigation either. I think very few of us .... with the exception of Wayne ... really needs to know how to navigate by the stars. Even local boating for me was primarily local knowledge. Even on fishing trips, 30-40 miles off shore didn't require any great navigation skills. In fact, without GPS, it would be almost impossible to find our "secret spot" for cod. Without GPS, I would probably be up to a half mile away. With GPS, I could find the rise on the ocean bottom in 260 feet of water that was our "secret spot" within a couple of yards. If the GPS crapped out, all I really had to do is follow the compass west. Eventually, I'd hit land. Back in the olden days (79-80) my buddy could find his secret spot in the Chesapeake bay just using landmarks onshore and a depth "scratcher". It was a 33 mile run down there from the marina. Now it is trivial to see using google earth and a $59 GPS would put you down on it. 37.736061-75.934284 Then follow that cut southwest. Add an 'N' and a 'W' or you may end up in China. Why so far south. I'd always be able to limit out on stripers just outside Deale. |
Boat crash in Ft. Lauderdale
On Thu, 2 Jan 2020 17:48:30 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote: Don't think we were talking "seamanship". That's a wide ranging subject. Boating with "local knowledge" really isn't celestial navigation either. I think very few of us .... with the exception of Wayne ... really needs to know how to navigate by the stars. === I studied celestial navigation back in the early 80s when it was still required for ocean navigation. I own an inexpensive sextant and have taken a few sights with it but don't carry it on the boat since we have multiple, redundant GPS units. Back in the day we used to sail offshore from the Cape Cod Canal up to Maine using paper charts, compass and dead reckoning. Making landfall in Maine on a foggy, windy morning had an element of uncertainty and excitement but always ended up within a mile or so of where we expected. I could still navigate by compass, charts and dead reckoning if the entire GPS system went out but it would take a while to get used to the uncertainty factor. There are tricks of the trade for dealing with positional uncertainty but they are rapidly becoming a lost art. |
Boat crash in Ft. Lauderdale
On Fri, 3 Jan 2020 06:47:47 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote: On 1/2/2020 7:34 PM, wrote: On Thu, 2 Jan 2020 17:48:30 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 1/2/2020 11:29 AM, wrote: On Thu, 2 Jan 2020 07:05:19 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 1/1/2020 10:50 PM, Justan Ohlphart wrote: Wrote in message: On Wed, 01 Jan 2020 13:00:28 -0500, John H. wrote:On Wed, 1 Jan 2020 16:45:16 -0000 (UTC), Bill wrote:John H. wrote: On Tue, 31 Dec 2019 21:13:43 -0500, Alex wrote: Last night... https://wsvn.com/news/local/several-injured-after-boat-crashes-into-jetty-near-fort-lauderdale/ Cocktails? Not every jetty shows up on a GPS. That happened a few times in Deale, MD, when folks would follow the GPS to get home. Midnight and speed. He was not going slow to get that far up the rocks ina 42β boat.For sure speed. Same thing happens in Deale. Going fast and taking the line offered by the GPS hasbeen the problem more than once. Everyone knows I am the real Luddite here but I fear modernelectronics is taking the place of basic seamanship and the importanceof local knowledge. Why do you fear modern ways of navigating? If you should ever decide to expand your horizons, you might embrace some of the newer technology available. I think that the advent of GPS, chart plotters and radar (if understood and used properly) have made boating (and aviation) much safer than in the days of compasses and paper charts. That still doesn't mean you can avoid learning the basics of seamanship and navigation. For a river and bay boater like me, that is all overkill anyway. If I was trying to find a small Caribbean island in a big ocean, I see the need but just trying to avoid a jetty or oyster bar that may not be in the database in the first place is just giving a false sense of security. Don't think we were talking "seamanship". That's a wide ranging subject. Boating with "local knowledge" really isn't celestial navigation either. I think very few of us .... with the exception of Wayne ... really needs to know how to navigate by the stars. Even local boating for me was primarily local knowledge. Even on fishing trips, 30-40 miles off shore didn't require any great navigation skills. In fact, without GPS, it would be almost impossible to find our "secret spot" for cod. Without GPS, I would probably be up to a half mile away. With GPS, I could find the rise on the ocean bottom in 260 feet of water that was our "secret spot" within a couple of yards. If the GPS crapped out, all I really had to do is follow the compass west. Eventually, I'd hit land. Back in the olden days (79-80) my buddy could find his secret spot in the Chesapeake bay just using landmarks onshore and a depth "scratcher". It was a 33 mile run down there from the marina. Now it is trivial to see using google earth and a $59 GPS would put you down on it. 37.736061 -75.934284 Then follow that cut southwest. Difference is that my "secret spot" was 32 miles offshore from Scituate, MA and there are no on-shore landmarks in sight. I have already said if you are offshore, GPS is a godsend. Most boaters never leave sight of land and for the guy in Ft Lauderdale "land" was his problem. He hit it. |
Boat crash in Ft. Lauderdale
On Fri, 3 Jan 2020 07:00:02 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote: On 1/2/2020 7:23 PM, wrote: On Thu, 2 Jan 2020 17:32:39 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 1/2/2020 11:34 AM, wrote: On Thu, 2 Jan 2020 07:14:10 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 1/2/2020 1:31 AM, wrote: On Wed, 1 Jan 2020 22:50:10 -0500 (EST), Justan Ohlphart wrote: Wrote in message: On Wed, 01 Jan 2020 13:00:28 -0500, John H. wrote:On Wed, 1 Jan 2020 16:45:16 -0000 (UTC), Bill wrote:John H. wrote: On Tue, 31 Dec 2019 21:13:43 -0500, Alex wrote: Last night... https://wsvn.com/news/local/several-injured-after-boat-crashes-into-jetty-near-fort-lauderdale/ Cocktails? Not every jetty shows up on a GPS. That happened a few times in Deale, MD, when folks would follow the GPS to get home. Midnight and speed. He was not going slow to get that far up the rocks ina 42β boat.For sure speed. Same thing happens in Deale. Going fast and taking the line offered by the GPS hasbeen the problem more than once. Everyone knows I am the real Luddite here but I fear modernelectronics is taking the place of basic seamanship and the importanceof local knowledge. Why do you fear modern ways of navigating? If you should ever decide to expand your horizons, you might embrace some of the newer technology available. Did you read what John wrote? People who trust their GPS blindly, hit things that are not in the database. The database for the bay here is pretty much useless anyway unless you just accept "don't go there" as an answer. The other issue is, if your electronics fail, do you just drop anchor and call sea tow, hoping they can triangulate your position on their radio or something? I know people who think their Garmin Chart Plotter is all they ever need. They don't even have a compass and no charts on board ... if they could read them in the first place. If that chart plotter craps out they are screwed, particularly at night. OTOH I navigate at night using local landmarks (radio towers, condos, mangrove islands I recognize) and simply knowing where I am and where I am going. Greg, your feelings are pretty much exactly how I felt when I first got into ocean boating. But once I graduated to the larger boats equipped with GPS, chart plotters and radar I realized that technology had much to offer over the old ways. I still had paper charts aboard and obviously a compass but found that the only time I had to use the charts was to program way-points into the chart plotter before getting underway in the morning. Never had to revert to navigating by charts and compass alone. I saw that the Navy is going back to teaching celestial navigation to their crews so somebody must think it is important. I suppose someone pointed out the GPS satellites might only last a couple days in a real war. I am not saying these new things are not handy. I am just saying everyone is depending on technology too much and forgetting basic skills. It is not just boating. Stand next to a broken cash register and watch the kid try to make change. It is scary. The Navy is teaching the basics of celestial navigation at the Academy only to midshipmen but it's in no way intended to be a serious navigation tool or method. Part of the reason is a public relations thing after a Navy ship ran aground, but it had nothing to do with failure of GPS or other electronic navigation systems. In other words .... it was operator error. Today, if the GPS system went down, half of our precision guided weaponry wouldn't work either ... or be totally inaccurate. I guess that is why that even the tertiary powers are trying to get anti satellite capability. To put your mind at ease: :-) Military navigation systems (including those aboard ships) are not necessarily dependent on GPS. The systems developed originally for nuke subs are now part of the navigation systems aboard surface ships, missles, etc. The system is called "Inertial Navigation System" (INS) and can work in concert with GPS or independently without GPS. Over the years the components and computers used for INS have been perfected, miniaturized and are incredibly accurate even without GPS input. https://aerospace.honeywell.com/en/learn/products/navigation-and-radios/talin-marine-inertial-navigation-system Yup that is pretty amazing stuff |
Boat crash in Ft. Lauderdale
On Fri, 03 Jan 2020 09:32:12 -0500, John H.
wrote: On Thu, 02 Jan 2020 19:34:18 -0500, wrote: On Thu, 2 Jan 2020 17:48:30 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 1/2/2020 11:29 AM, wrote: On Thu, 2 Jan 2020 07:05:19 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 1/1/2020 10:50 PM, Justan Ohlphart wrote: Wrote in message: On Wed, 01 Jan 2020 13:00:28 -0500, John H. wrote:On Wed, 1 Jan 2020 16:45:16 -0000 (UTC), Bill wrote:John H. wrote: On Tue, 31 Dec 2019 21:13:43 -0500, Alex wrote: Last night... https://wsvn.com/news/local/several-injured-after-boat-crashes-into-jetty-near-fort-lauderdale/ Cocktails? Not every jetty shows up on a GPS. That happened a few times in Deale, MD, when folks would follow the GPS to get home. Midnight and speed. He was not going slow to get that far up the rocks ina 42β boat.For sure speed. Same thing happens in Deale. Going fast and taking the line offered by the GPS hasbeen the problem more than once. Everyone knows I am the real Luddite here but I fear modernelectronics is taking the place of basic seamanship and the importanceof local knowledge. Why do you fear modern ways of navigating? If you should ever decide to expand your horizons, you might embrace some of the newer technology available. I think that the advent of GPS, chart plotters and radar (if understood and used properly) have made boating (and aviation) much safer than in the days of compasses and paper charts. That still doesn't mean you can avoid learning the basics of seamanship and navigation. For a river and bay boater like me, that is all overkill anyway. If I was trying to find a small Caribbean island in a big ocean, I see the need but just trying to avoid a jetty or oyster bar that may not be in the database in the first place is just giving a false sense of security. Don't think we were talking "seamanship". That's a wide ranging subject. Boating with "local knowledge" really isn't celestial navigation either. I think very few of us .... with the exception of Wayne ... really needs to know how to navigate by the stars. Even local boating for me was primarily local knowledge. Even on fishing trips, 30-40 miles off shore didn't require any great navigation skills. In fact, without GPS, it would be almost impossible to find our "secret spot" for cod. Without GPS, I would probably be up to a half mile away. With GPS, I could find the rise on the ocean bottom in 260 feet of water that was our "secret spot" within a couple of yards. If the GPS crapped out, all I really had to do is follow the compass west. Eventually, I'd hit land. Back in the olden days (79-80) my buddy could find his secret spot in the Chesapeake bay just using landmarks onshore and a depth "scratcher". It was a 33 mile run down there from the marina. Now it is trivial to see using google earth and a $59 GPS would put you down on it. 37.736061-75.934284 Then follow that cut southwest. Add an 'N' and a 'W' or you may end up in China. Why so far south. I'd always be able to limit out on stripers just outside Deale. This was for trout and croakers. Rockfish were rare and illegal to take in those days. I never saw one. They were around in the 50s but we caught them all. In the 70s there were no limits on the fish you could take, you just could not take a rockfish if you caught one. I also never even heard of DNR stopping anyone. With no limits, no license required and no drug running, I am not sure what they would be stopping you for. They were all up in the north bay, South River going after people catching small crabs and water skiing to close to docks or other boaters. |
Boat crash in Ft. Lauderdale
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Boat crash in Ft. Lauderdale
On Fri, 03 Jan 2020 13:43:01 -0500, wrote:
On Fri, 03 Jan 2020 11:12:10 -0500, wrote: On Thu, 2 Jan 2020 17:48:30 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: Don't think we were talking "seamanship". That's a wide ranging subject. Boating with "local knowledge" really isn't celestial navigation either. I think very few of us .... with the exception of Wayne ... really needs to know how to navigate by the stars. === I studied celestial navigation back in the early 80s when it was still required for ocean navigation. I own an inexpensive sextant and have taken a few sights with it but don't carry it on the boat since we have multiple, redundant GPS units. Back in the day we used to sail offshore from the Cape Cod Canal up to Maine using paper charts, compass and dead reckoning. Making landfall in Maine on a foggy, windy morning had an element of uncertainty and excitement but always ended up within a mile or so of where we expected. I could still navigate by compass, charts and dead reckoning if the entire GPS system went out but it would take a while to get used to the uncertainty factor. There are tricks of the trade for dealing with positional uncertainty but they are rapidly becoming a lost art. There seem to be a lot of "lost arts" in this age of technology. We always assume the technology will just be there. As long as we have our cell phones, we can always give you a call! :) |
Boat crash in Ft. Lauderdale
- show quoted text - I saw that the Navy is going back to teaching celestial navigation to their crews so somebody must think it is important. I suppose someone pointed out the GPS satellites might only last a couple days in a real war. .......... Iβd heard Morse code is coming back too. Even for military pilots. Iβd think itβs a good deal |
Boat crash in Ft. Lauderdale
On Fri, 03 Jan 2020 13:31:42 -0500, wrote:
On Fri, 3 Jan 2020 07:00:02 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 1/2/2020 7:23 PM, wrote: On Thu, 2 Jan 2020 17:32:39 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 1/2/2020 11:34 AM, wrote: On Thu, 2 Jan 2020 07:14:10 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 1/2/2020 1:31 AM, wrote: On Wed, 1 Jan 2020 22:50:10 -0500 (EST), Justan Ohlphart wrote: Wrote in message: On Wed, 01 Jan 2020 13:00:28 -0500, John H. wrote:On Wed, 1 Jan 2020 16:45:16 -0000 (UTC), Bill wrote:John H. wrote: On Tue, 31 Dec 2019 21:13:43 -0500, Alex wrote: Last night... https://wsvn.com/news/local/several-injured-after-boat-crashes-into-jetty-near-fort-lauderdale/ Cocktails? Not every jetty shows up on a GPS. That happened a few times in Deale, MD, when folks would follow the GPS to get home. Midnight and speed. He was not going slow to get that far up the rocks ina 42 boat.For sure speed. Same thing happens in Deale. Going fast and taking the line offered by the GPS hasbeen the problem more than once. Everyone knows I am the real Luddite here but I fear modernelectronics is taking the place of basic seamanship and the importanceof local knowledge. Why do you fear modern ways of navigating? If you should ever decide to expand your horizons, you might embrace some of the newer technology available. Did you read what John wrote? People who trust their GPS blindly, hit things that are not in the database. The database for the bay here is pretty much useless anyway unless you just accept "don't go there" as an answer. The other issue is, if your electronics fail, do you just drop anchor and call sea tow, hoping they can triangulate your position on their radio or something? I know people who think their Garmin Chart Plotter is all they ever need. They don't even have a compass and no charts on board ... if they could read them in the first place. If that chart plotter craps out they are screwed, particularly at night. OTOH I navigate at night using local landmarks (radio towers, condos, mangrove islands I recognize) and simply knowing where I am and where I am going. Greg, your feelings are pretty much exactly how I felt when I first got into ocean boating. But once I graduated to the larger boats equipped with GPS, chart plotters and radar I realized that technology had much to offer over the old ways. I still had paper charts aboard and obviously a compass but found that the only time I had to use the charts was to program way-points into the chart plotter before getting underway in the morning. Never had to revert to navigating by charts and compass alone. I saw that the Navy is going back to teaching celestial navigation to their crews so somebody must think it is important. I suppose someone pointed out the GPS satellites might only last a couple days in a real war. I am not saying these new things are not handy. I am just saying everyone is depending on technology too much and forgetting basic skills. It is not just boating. Stand next to a broken cash register and watch the kid try to make change. It is scary. The Navy is teaching the basics of celestial navigation at the Academy only to midshipmen but it's in no way intended to be a serious navigation tool or method. Part of the reason is a public relations thing after a Navy ship ran aground, but it had nothing to do with failure of GPS or other electronic navigation systems. In other words .... it was operator error. Today, if the GPS system went down, half of our precision guided weaponry wouldn't work either ... or be totally inaccurate. I guess that is why that even the tertiary powers are trying to get anti satellite capability. To put your mind at ease: :-) Military navigation systems (including those aboard ships) are not necessarily dependent on GPS. The systems developed originally for nuke subs are now part of the navigation systems aboard surface ships, missles, etc. The system is called "Inertial Navigation System" (INS) and can work in concert with GPS or independently without GPS. Over the years the components and computers used for INS have been perfected, miniaturized and are incredibly accurate even without GPS input. https://aerospace.honeywell.com/en/learn/products/navigation-and-radios/talin-marine-inertial-navigation-system Yup that is pretty amazing stuff === It certainly is. One of the things that really amazes me is electronic "gyroscopes". All of the older IN systems used mechanical gyros but nowadays the whole thing is on a microchip that senses motion by comparing the phase difference of light beams going in opposite directions. |
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