On Tuesday, March 26, 2019 at 5:18:44 PM UTC-5, Bill wrote:
wrote:
On Tue, 26 Mar 2019 15:11:13 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 3/26/2019 3:00 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 26 Mar 2019 18:33:59 -0000 (UTC), Bill
wrote:

wrote:
On Tue, 26 Mar 2019 06:50:09 -0700 (PDT), Its Me
wrote:

On Tuesday, March 26, 2019 at 9:35:22 AM UTC-4, Tim wrote:
I don’t know if this is allowed but here’s some history on Mercury/Mariner

Mariner outboard history
Competition in the outboard market was tough in the early 1970s, and
Mercury Marine found itself at a slight disadvantage.

Rival engine builder Outboard Marine Corporation (OMC) sold two
outboard brands, Johnson and Evinrude. While Mercury enjoyed equal
market share in the category, it was thought that a second outboard
line could boost Mercury Marine’s distribution, both in the U.S. and internationally.

The new Mercury engine brand was named “Mariner� to invoke a reliable,
durable outboard that would appeal to a different customer than the fast,
high-performance image of the Mercury brand.

Introduced in Australia in 1974 and two years later in the U.S. and
Europe, Mariner instantly doubled the distribution potential for
Mercury Marine. The new outboard brand established a foothold in
Europe, thanks in part to a decision by OMC to sell direct to dealers,
eliminating the loyal, long-term distributors. The new
Mariner Outboard in Australia had proved itself quickly, setting a new
endurance speed record in 1975 during a 546-mile run from Sydney to
Brisbane. An 18-hour running time slashed more than nine hours off the
previous record. In 1976, Mariner Outboards were introduced in Europe
and the United States; in conjunction with the
American debut, three Mariner-powered boats ran up the Mississippi River
from New Orleans to Chicago for a total of 4,500 boat miles.

Mariner was originally built under a joint venture with Yamaha, the
Federal Trade Commission made the unfortunate decision to block the
joint venture with Yamaha nine years after the successful launch of the
Mariner brand, and the details of the original agreement came back to
haunt Brunswick. The FTC felt that Mercury Marine
was monopolizing the market, and the separation of the Mercury and
Mariner brands would bring down prices. In the original agreement, Yamaha
was prohibited to sell the Mariner brand under its own name.

When the FTC ordered Brunswick to sell its shares back to Yamaha, the
door was opened and a new competitor rapidly emerged on the market. In
fact, the dealers had been conditioned to think of Yamaha as a prestige
product so after the FTC decision, Mariner prices increased as it
continued to be sold in direct competition with
Mercury. By the early ’80s, Mariner and Mercury were becoming more
similar than different. When electronic fuel injection was introduced in
1986, the transition was complete; the two outboards were mechanically the same.

In the mid 1990s, the future viability of a second outboard brand was
debated. While the distribution issue lessened as more boats and motors
were sold as a package by U.S. boat builders, Mariner enjoyed a far
larger market share internationally than at home. Still, the perception
remained that OMC would enjoy a “two-to-one
advantage� with its dual outboard brands.

However, the economies of scale did not bode well for a two-brand
strategy. With less risk of losing U.S. sales through a larger number
of committed boat builders, the savings in manufacturing and marketing
costs for a single outboard brand would be significant.

In 1999, the decision was reached to end Mariner sales in the U.S.. but
to continue distribution internationally in markets where it remains popular.

In the U.S., loyal Mariner owners were downhearted. Even though Mercury
and Mariner had been the same product — except for paint and decals —
for more than a decade, the faithful never accepted the reality,
expressing a wish for the return of Mariner in the U.S.


So now we know...

Interesting.

In this part of the country, both on inland lakes and at the coast,
Yamaha is the dominant brand. It sure seems that on late-model boats,
the ratio is 7 or 8 out of 10 are Yamaha.

Yamaha is certainly the winner here with Merc being second and then a
smattering of E-Tecs and Suzukis. There are still a few old OMC 2
smokers that just won't die. One of my old redneck buddies loves those
old OMCs and he has a bunch of them he got free or real cheap but he
likes working on motors.


We are seeing a lot more new Suzuki here.

The commercial operator here seems to like them after blowing up two
Etecs. I haven't talked to my captain buddies for a while but the last
time I talked to them their Zekes were clocking 5000-6000 hours each
and they have a bunch of them pushing pontoon boats 38-52 foot.



Wasn't "Tom" a big advocate for E-tecs?

They seem to be a good choice for a recreational boater. They are
fairly low maintenance, good efficiency and power to weight ratio. The
commercial guy said the two he had were flawless for 1500 hours or so
but then they just blew up. He did have some L/U problems but we tag
the bottom a lot here. The Zekes don't seem to have those problems.
I do see a lot of OMC fans showing me pictures of Etecs on police or
Coast Guard boats but not much about how long they lasted.



I forget which model of the Etec blew a lot. One of the common horsepower
model would get an air lock in the cooling system on one of the cylinders
if you idled a long time. At least that is what I read.

Wasn't that the "Ficht"

Tim wrote:
On Tuesday, March 26, 2019 at 5:18:44 PM UTC-5, Bill wrote:
wrote:
On Tue, 26 Mar 2019 15:11:13 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 3/26/2019 3:00 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 26 Mar 2019 18:33:59 -0000 (UTC), Bill
wrote:

wrote:
On Tue, 26 Mar 2019 06:50:09 -0700 (PDT), Its Me
wrote:

On Tuesday, March 26, 2019 at 9:35:22 AM UTC-4, Tim wrote:
I don’t know if this is allowed but here’s some history on Mercury/Mariner

Mariner outboard history
Competition in the outboard market was tough in the early 1970s, and
Mercury Marine found itself at a slight disadvantage.

Rival engine builder Outboard Marine Corporation (OMC) sold two
outboard brands, Johnson and Evinrude. While Mercury enjoyed equal
market share in the category, it was thought that a second outboard
line could boost Mercury Marine’s distribution, both in the U.S. and
internationally.

The new Mercury engine brand was named “Mariner� to invoke a reliable,
durable outboard that would appeal to a different customer than the fast,
high-performance image of the Mercury brand.

Introduced in Australia in 1974 and two years later in the U.S. and
Europe, Mariner instantly doubled the distribution potential for
Mercury Marine. The new outboard brand established a foothold in
Europe, thanks in part to a decision by OMC to sell direct to dealers,
eliminating the loyal, long-term distributors. The new
Mariner Outboard in Australia had proved itself quickly, setting a new
endurance speed record in 1975 during a 546-mile run from Sydney to
Brisbane. An 18-hour running time slashed more than nine hours off the
previous record. In 1976, Mariner Outboards were introduced in Europe
and the United States; in conjunction with the
American debut, three Mariner-powered boats ran up the Mississippi River
from New Orleans to Chicago for a total of 4,500 boat miles.

Mariner was originally built under a joint venture with Yamaha, the
Federal Trade Commission made the unfortunate decision to block the
joint venture with Yamaha nine years after the successful launch of the
Mariner brand, and the details of the original agreement came back to
haunt Brunswick. The FTC felt that Mercury Marine
was monopolizing the market, and the separation of the Mercury and
Mariner brands would bring down prices. In the original agreement, Yamaha
was prohibited to sell the Mariner brand under its own name.

When the FTC ordered Brunswick to sell its shares back to Yamaha, the
door was opened and a new competitor rapidly emerged on the market. In
fact, the dealers had been conditioned to think of Yamaha as a prestige
product so after the FTC decision, Mariner prices increased as it
continued to be sold in direct competition with
Mercury. By the early ’80s, Mariner and Mercury were becoming more
similar than different. When electronic fuel injection was introduced in
1986, the transition was complete; the two outboards were mechanically the same.

In the mid 1990s, the future viability of a second outboard brand was
debated. While the distribution issue lessened as more boats and motors
were sold as a package by U.S. boat builders, Mariner enjoyed a far
larger market share internationally than at home. Still, the perception
remained that OMC would enjoy a “two-to-one
advantage� with its dual outboard brands.

However, the economies of scale did not bode well for a two-brand
strategy. With less risk of losing U.S. sales through a larger number
of committed boat builders, the savings in manufacturing and marketing
costs for a single outboard brand would be significant.

In 1999, the decision was reached to end Mariner sales in the U.S. but
to continue distribution internationally in markets where it remains popular.

In the U.S., loyal Mariner owners were downhearted. Even though Mercury
and Mariner had been the same product — except for paint and decals —
for more than a decade, the faithful never accepted the reality,
expressing a wish for the return of Mariner in the U.S.


So now we know...

Interesting.

In this part of the country, both on inland lakes and at the coast,
Yamaha is the dominant brand. It sure seems that on late-model boats,
the ratio is 7 or 8 out of 10 are Yamaha.

Yamaha is certainly the winner here with Merc being second and then a
smattering of E-Tecs and Suzukis. There are still a few old OMC 2
smokers that just won't die. One of my old redneck buddies loves those
old OMCs and he has a bunch of them he got free or real cheap but he
likes working on motors.


We are seeing a lot more new Suzuki here.

The commercial operator here seems to like them after blowing up two
Etecs. I haven't talked to my captain buddies for a while but the last
time I talked to them their Zekes were clocking 5000-6000 hours each
and they have a bunch of them pushing pontoon boats 38-52 foot.



Wasn't "Tom" a big advocate for E-tecs?

They seem to be a good choice for a recreational boater. They are
fairly low maintenance, good efficiency and power to weight ratio. The
commercial guy said the two he had were flawless for 1500 hours or so
but then they just blew up. He did have some L/U problems but we tag
the bottom a lot here. The Zekes don't seem to have those problems.
I do see a lot of OMC fans showing me pictures of Etecs on police or
Coast Guard boats but not much about how long they lasted.



I forget which model of the Etec blew a lot. One of the common horsepower
model would get an air lock in the cooling system on one of the cylinders
if you idled a long time. At least that is what I read.

Wasn't that the "Ficht"


Oh yeah. Confused in my dotage.

9:43 PMBill
Tim wrote:
On Tuesday, March 26, 2019 at 5:18:44 PM UTC-5, Bill wrote:
wrote:
On Tue, 26 Mar 2019 15:11:13 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 3/26/2019 3:00 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 26 Mar 2019 18:33:59 -0000 (UTC), Bill
wrote:

wrote:
On Tue, 26 Mar 2019 06:50:09 -0700 (PDT), Its Me
- show quoted text -
Oh yeah. Confused in my dotage.

......

Oh I remember that was Karen smiths big smear. Because of their dubious issues concerning reliability, she poked fun of them every chance she got...

On Tue, 26 Mar 2019 19:04:35 -0700 (PDT), Tim
wrote:

On Tuesday, March 26, 2019 at 5:18:44 PM UTC-5, Bill wrote:
wrote:
On Tue, 26 Mar 2019 15:11:13 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 3/26/2019 3:00 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 26 Mar 2019 18:33:59 -0000 (UTC), Bill
wrote:

wrote:
On Tue, 26 Mar 2019 06:50:09 -0700 (PDT), Its Me
wrote:

On Tuesday, March 26, 2019 at 9:35:22 AM UTC-4, Tim wrote:
I don’t know if this is allowed but here’s some history on Mercury/Mariner

Mariner outboard history
Competition in the outboard market was tough in the early 1970s, and
Mercury Marine found itself at a slight disadvantage.

Rival engine builder Outboard Marine Corporation (OMC) sold two
outboard brands, Johnson and Evinrude. While Mercury enjoyed equal
market share in the category, it was thought that a second outboard
line could boost Mercury Marine’s distribution, both in the U.S. and internationally.

The new Mercury engine brand was named “Mariner� to invoke a reliable,
durable outboard that would appeal to a different customer than the fast,
high-performance image of the Mercury brand.

Introduced in Australia in 1974 and two years later in the U.S. and
Europe, Mariner instantly doubled the distribution potential for
Mercury Marine. The new outboard brand established a foothold in
Europe, thanks in part to a decision by OMC to sell direct to dealers,
eliminating the loyal, long-term distributors. The new
Mariner Outboard in Australia had proved itself quickly, setting a new
endurance speed record in 1975 during a 546-mile run from Sydney to
Brisbane. An 18-hour running time slashed more than nine hours off the
previous record. In 1976, Mariner Outboards were introduced in Europe
and the United States; in conjunction with the
American debut, three Mariner-powered boats ran up the Mississippi River
from New Orleans to Chicago for a total of 4,500 boat miles.

Mariner was originally built under a joint venture with Yamaha, the
Federal Trade Commission made the unfortunate decision to block the
joint venture with Yamaha nine years after the successful launch of the
Mariner brand, and the details of the original agreement came back to
haunt Brunswick. The FTC felt that Mercury Marine
was monopolizing the market, and the separation of the Mercury and
Mariner brands would bring down prices. In the original agreement, Yamaha
was prohibited to sell the Mariner brand under its own name.

When the FTC ordered Brunswick to sell its shares back to Yamaha, the
door was opened and a new competitor rapidly emerged on the market. In
fact, the dealers had been conditioned to think of Yamaha as a prestige
product so after the FTC decision, Mariner prices increased as it
continued to be sold in direct competition with
Mercury. By the early ’80s, Mariner and Mercury were becoming more
similar than different. When electronic fuel injection was introduced in
1986, the transition was complete; the two outboards were mechanically the same.

In the mid 1990s, the future viability of a second outboard brand was
debated. While the distribution issue lessened as more boats and motors
were sold as a package by U.S. boat builders, Mariner enjoyed a far
larger market share internationally than at home. Still, the perception
remained that OMC would enjoy a “two-to-one
advantage� with its dual outboard brands.

However, the economies of scale did not bode well for a two-brand
strategy. With less risk of losing U.S. sales through a larger number
of committed boat builders, the savings in manufacturing and marketing
costs for a single outboard brand would be significant.

In 1999, the decision was reached to end Mariner sales in the U.S. but
to continue distribution internationally in markets where it remains popular.

In the U.S., loyal Mariner owners were downhearted. Even though Mercury
and Mariner had been the same product — except for paint and decals —
for more than a decade, the faithful never accepted the reality,
expressing a wish for the return of Mariner in the U.S.


So now we know...

Interesting.

In this part of the country, both on inland lakes and at the coast,
Yamaha is the dominant brand. It sure seems that on late-model boats,
the ratio is 7 or 8 out of 10 are Yamaha.

Yamaha is certainly the winner here with Merc being second and then a
smattering of E-Tecs and Suzukis. There are still a few old OMC 2
smokers that just won't die. One of my old redneck buddies loves those
old OMCs and he has a bunch of them he got free or real cheap but he
likes working on motors.


We are seeing a lot more new Suzuki here.

The commercial operator here seems to like them after blowing up two
Etecs. I haven't talked to my captain buddies for a while but the last
time I talked to them their Zekes were clocking 5000-6000 hours each
and they have a bunch of them pushing pontoon boats 38-52 foot.



Wasn't "Tom" a big advocate for E-tecs?

They seem to be a good choice for a recreational boater. They are
fairly low maintenance, good efficiency and power to weight ratio. The
commercial guy said the two he had were flawless for 1500 hours or so
but then they just blew up. He did have some L/U problems but we tag
the bottom a lot here. The Zekes don't seem to have those problems.
I do see a lot of OMC fans showing me pictures of Etecs on police or
Coast Guard boats but not much about how long they lasted.



I forget which model of the Etec blew a lot. One of the common horsepower
model would get an air lock in the cooling system on one of the cylinders
if you idled a long time. At least that is what I read.

Wasn't that the "Ficht"

Etec is just a Ficht with a little tweaking and more electronics from
what I hear.