On 10/13/2018 12:06 PM, John H. wrote:
On Sat, 13 Oct 2018 11:51:21 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 10/13/2018 10:36 AM, Keyser Soze wrote:
On 10/13/18 10:32 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 10/13/2018 10:04 AM, Keyser Soze wrote:
On 10/12/18 11:59 PM, wrote:
On 13 Oct 2018 03:00:51 GMT, Keyser Soze wrote:

He probably has a snow blower so this will be balmy for a year or so.


There you go again...wrong as usual.


That you have a snow blower or that you think SC will be balmy?



Never had a snow blower. Our landscaping guy here has us high on the
"come by and plow list" if the driveway needs plowing. Usually, that
is once a season, never been more than twice. If it is just a couple
of inches of snow, I 4WD over it and let the sun do its job. The
critical factor is when the state highway department gets to the
secondary state roads.

I've done some research on seasonal temps in Hilton Head, and I've
been there in December and February. Where we are now typically has
considerably colder winters. It's not balmy in Hilton Head in the
winters...I would describe it as mild, and suitable for my usual
outfit of cargo shorts and a short-sleeved shirt, with occasional use
of a lightweight hoodie.

My truck, which is still in great shape (2016 with about 25,000
miles), might be traded in when we get to Hilton Head. Its 4WD, and I
can't think of a reason why I'd need it down there. I don't drive on
beaches, the boat ramps in that area seem quiteÂ* good, and there's no
real snow. I think a 2WD Toyota would be fine.


You 4WD in 2 inches of snow?Â*Â* Wow!



D'uh. Yeah, I drive upÂ* and down the driveway in 4WD a few times to
"reveal" the asphalt so the sun can melt the snow. Ends up clearing off
the driveway faster. Sometimes it is more than just a couple of inches
of snow, but I don't go out and measure it. You see a problem with that,
eh?


Don't know why but I find it a little humorous.....

http://funkyimg.com/i/2M53P.jpg

Let me know if this works. I'm trying your 'funkyimg.com'.

http://funkyimg.com/i/2M54Q.jpg

That's my pup, Koko, posing.



Perfect.

On Sat, 13 Oct 2018 05:31:57 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/12/2018 10:36 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 19:10:14 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/12/2018 3:57 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 14:56:36 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/12/2018 2:04 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 14:37:24 -0000 (UTC), Bill
wrote:

Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 10/12/2018 5:49 AM, John H. wrote:
On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 05:04:47 -0000 (UTC), Bill wrote:

Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 10/11/2018 8:12 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 16:42:41 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/11/2018 3:40 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 14:11:23 -0400, John H.
wrote:


http://tinyurl.com/y7dezaq3

"The left is revving up attacks on capitalism just as workers on the
bottom rungs are beginning to
benefit from the booming U.S. economy. According to last week's jobs
report, unemployment has been
pushed back to its lowest level since 1969. Wages in blue-collar
industries, such as construction
and maintenance, are rising faster than for white-collar workers. Pay
for people without a college
education jumped almost 6 percent since last year -- triple the overall wage gain."

Gosh, I thought wage growth was stagnant.

There was an article in USA Today yesterday talking about .how wages
are going up across the board and some jobs are really taking off

BTW your link took me to Harbor Fright generators.

About that, why is my 5.5 KW Briggs 11 hp and theirs is 8?
They must have stronger horses in China



With no losses considered:

8 hp = 5.96Kw
11 hp = 8.2Kw

I completely forgot about a small generator I bought from a neighbor
last year. It was brand new, still in the box and she
decided to have a whole house generator installed instead. She
only wanted $200 for it but after looking it up I decided I'd be
ripping her off, so I gave her $300. It's rated at 4,750 peak watts
and 3800 watts continuous. Engine is 6.3 hp.

I put it together last spring and fired it up. Ran fine, was not
overly noisy (for a conventional type generator). It has electric
start which is nice and will run on gas or propane, although propane
is at a reduced output capacity. I ran it out of gas and stored it away
and, until just now, had forgotten I had it. It's a "Wren" that she got
from Home Depot:

https://tinyurl.com/ybef4hty

I keep hearing about the reduced output capacity on propane but I
don't see it. I will say fuel consumption is where the difference of
energy density shows up. At full load the gasoline consumption is
around 0.5 GPH and propane is more like 0.8 GPH although the gasoline
is easier to measure accurately. I am just going on a gauge on a 150
gallon tank and that is not very precise.
After a similar discussion on the real boat group I tested my
generator using my convection oven as the load.
This is 5402.7w running a 5500w generator on propane
http://gfretwell.com/Propaneproject/Onpropane.jpg
When I plugged in two 100w lights, it tripped the breaker before I
could take pictures.



I think any generator can temporarily exceed their rated capacity but
they may not last long if done on a regular basis. Windings and other
components will get hot and go "poof". It's not often that generators
are running all the time at full capacity and if they are, you probably
need a bigger generator. :-)

I mentioned before that the little Honda I have is rated for 2,000 watts
surge and 1600 watts continuous or 13.3 amps. It ran my large microwave
with a measured amperage draw of over 16 amps for a short time but as
soon as I realized how much current was being drawn I shut the microwave
off. I wouldn't do that on a regular basis. The circuit breaker on the
generator never tripped.

I've been looking around for a larger portable generator but I want one
with 4 poles instead of the typical 2 poles. 4 poles will allow the
engine to run at 1800 RPM to produce it's rated output at 60Hz instead
of the typical 3600 RPM in a 2 pole generator. 3600 RPM is the main
reason they are so noisy.





My Yamaha 2000 runs my Samsung camper microwave fine. Never ran it for a
long time, mostly heat water for coffee.



Even the bigger microwaves are only about 1200 watts. Shouldn't be a
problem for the 2000 watter.


John, the 1200 watt rating is the microwave output power, not the power
required to produce it. My 1200 watt microwave draws just over 16 amps
to run. 120v x 16 amps = 1920 watts which is over the continuous
output rating of the Honda (1600 watts). It means the Honda has to run
near or at it's "surge" capacity continuously in order to power the 1200
watt microwave.





I would figure most microwave units should be about 14 amps max. They are
designed to run on 15 amp circuits.

Max on a 15a circuit is 12a (1440w). There are a few exceptions but
none if it has a plug on it.



I am not a code expert but why then, when you go to Lowe's or Home Depot
are the wall receptacles marked as "15 amp" or "20 amp"?

I've always wired a 20 amp outlet with 12 ga romex and 15 amp with 14
ga. and use the appropriate breaker in the service panel. More often
than not I skip the 15 amp altogether and just wire for 20 amp.

Have the codes changed?

No.
A 20a has to be on 12ga but you can put a 15 on either as long as
there is more than one receptacle on the circuit. A duplex is 2.
There is no limit to how many you put on a circuit tho in residential.

Commercial has a 180va per duplex (90 per receptacle) rating for each
based on full circuit ampacity (not the 80%). I think Canada extends
that to residential.

The thinking in residential is receptacles are placed for convenience,
not actual load and most will not be used most of the time so you can
have all you want on a circuit. The NEC does not address "design".
Basically they are trying to avoid the need of extension cords and
cords running across doorways so the general rule is you are always
within 6' of a receptacle without crossing an opening. That includes
any wall space 24" or wider.
In the kitchen, on the counter top you are 2' from a receptacle.
This takes about 6-7 pages of fine print and pictures in the NEC to
describe. Damn lawyers ;-)
210.52 is one of the more confusing articles.



I understand all the convenience stuff but you said that "Max on a 15a
circuit is 12amps). So why do the 15 amp receptacles say "15 amps" on
them? Why is the 15 amp circuit fed from a 15 amp breaker? If code
says "max on a 15a circuit is 12 amps" why aren't the breakers 12 amps
and the receptacles labeled "12 amps" ?

That is per plug (or piece of fixed in place equipment)
There are a lot of things going on here. The rated amperes on a device
(receptacle switch etc) is what it can handle without burning up (per
the NRTL ; like U/L)
The ampacity of a conductor is what it an handle without burning up.
(and remain in a safe condition)
You dealt with labs, You know that stuff.
Then there is the code that tries to build an 80% safety margin into
everything. 15 becomes 12 and 20 becomes 16.
That is really only applicable to continuous loads (3 hours) but they
always err on the safe side. If you can plug it in, they assume you
need all help you can get so the NRTL puts the 1440w limit on a NEMA
5-15 plug and 1920w on a 5-20.





Ah, I think you are referring to industrial code requirements. Not sure
they all apply to residential wiring in a house but again, I am not
an electrician and don't even have a current code book. :-)

Nope 210.21(B)(2) applies to everyone
(2) Total Cord-and-Plug-Connected Load. Where connected
to a branch circuit supplying two or more receptacles
or outlets, a receptacle shall not supply a total cord and-
plug-connected load in excess of the maximum
specified in Table 210.21(B)(2)
http://gfretwell.com/electrical/Tabl...21%20B%202.jpg


The equipment I used to build had many three phase motors and other
relatively high powered components most of which ran on three phase
power. Most were 480v, delta and occasionally 208 wye, depending
on what the customer's service was. Typical service requirements
for the average system was 60-80 KVA

I used to spec the service requirements for the
whole system so the customer could plan for it' installation.

When I first started doing this and being knowledgeable of which motors,
etc. would be on and which would be off during the system's operation, I
specified the the service for the maximum KVA it could draw at any time
with a safety factor. The systems never had *all* the high power
consuming components running at the same time.

Later, as the company grew, more people were hired and my role became
more corporate management versus technical I hired an electrical
engineer with a P.E. to manage the electrical department. He changed
the way the systems were spec'd to include *all* the motors, etc. even
though they would never run together at the same time. He said the way
I had been doing it was ok ... safe ... but the code required the total
of all, running or not. All it did was cause the customer's service
requirements to go up dramatically but needlessly.

If the motors are not electrically interlocked so they can't run
together you need to compute the load based on the largest one at 125%
and the rest at 100% of the full load amps

430.24 Several Motors or a Motor(s) and Other
Load(s). Conductors supplying several motors, or a motor(
s) and other load(s), shall have an ampacity not less
than the sum of each of the following:
(1) 125 percent of the full-load current rating of the highest
rated motor, as determined by 430.6(A)
(2) Sum of the full-load current ratings of all the other
motors in the group, as determined by 430.6(A)
(3) 100 percent of the noncontinuous non-motor load
(4) 125 percent of the continuous non-motor load.
Informational Note: See Informative Annex D, Example
No. D8.
Exception No.1: Where one or more of the motors of the
group are used for short-time, intermittent, periodic, or
varying duty, the ampere rating of such ~motors to be used
in the summation shall be determined in accordance with
430. 22(E). For the highest rated motor, the greater of either
the ampere rating from 430.22(E) or the largest continuous
duty motor full-load current multiplied by 1.25
shall be used in the summation.
Exception No.2: The ampacity of conductors supplying
motor-operated fixed electric space-heating equipment
shall comply with 424.3(B).
Exception No.3: Where the circuitry is interlocked so as
to prevent simultaneous operation of selected motors or
other loads, the conductor ampacity shall be permitted to
be based on the summation of the currents of the motors
and other loads to be operated simultaneously that results
in the highest total current.

On Sat, 13 Oct 2018 07:46:22 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/13/2018 5:15 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 10/12/2018 10:25 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 19:03:59 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/12/2018 3:07 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 14:34:56 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/12/2018 1:10 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 08:00:23 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/12/2018 1:04 AM, Bill wrote:
Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 10/11/2018 8:12 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 16:42:41 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/11/2018 3:40 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 14:11:23 -0400, John H.

wrote:


http://tinyurl.com/y7dezaq3

"The left is revving up attacks on capitalism just as
workers on the
bottom rungs are beginning to
benefit from the booming U.S. economy. According to last
week's jobs
report, unemployment has been
pushed back to its lowest level since 1969. Wages in
blue-collar
industries, such as construction
and maintenance, are rising faster than for white-collar
workers. Pay
for people without a college
education jumped almost 6 percent since last year -- triple
the overall wage gain."

Gosh, I thought wage growth was stagnant.

There was an article in USA Today yesterday talking about
.how wages
are going up across the board and some jobs are really
taking off

BTW your link took me to Harbor Fright generators.

About that, why is my 5.5 KW Briggs 11 hp and theirs is 8?
They must have stronger horses in China



With no losses considered:

8 hp = 5.96Kw
11 hp = 8.2Kw

I completely forgot about a small generator I bought from a
neighbor
last year.Â* It was brand new, still in the box and she
decided to have a whole house generator installed instead.Â* She
only wanted $200 for it but after looking it up I decided I'd be
ripping her off, so I gave her $300.Â* It's rated at 4,750
peak watts
and 3800 watts continuous.Â* Engine is 6.3 hp.

I put it together last spring and fired it up.Â* Ran fine, was
not
overly noisy (for a conventional type generator).Â* It has
electric
start which is nice and will run on gas or propane, although
propane
is at a reduced output capacity.Â* I ran it out of gas and
stored it away
and, until just now, had forgotten I had it.Â* It's a "Wren"
that she got
from Home Depot:

https://tinyurl.com/ybef4hty

I keep hearing about the reduced output capacity on propane but I
don't see it. I will say fuel consumption is where the
difference of
energy density shows up. At full load the gasoline consumption is
around 0.5 GPH and propane is more like 0.8 GPH although the
gasoline
is easier to measure accurately. I am just going on a gauge on
a 150
gallon tank and that is not very precise.
After a similar discussion on the real boat group I tested my
generator using my convection oven as the load.
This is 5402.7w running a 5500w generator on propane
http://gfretwell.com/Propaneproject/Onpropane.jpg
When I plugged in two 100w lights, it tripped the breaker
before I
could take pictures.



I think any generator can temporarily exceed their rated
capacity but
they may not last long if done on a regular basis.Â* Windings
and other
components will get hot and go "poof". It's not often that
generators
are running all the time at full capacity and if they are, you
probably
need a bigger generator.Â* :-)

I mentioned before that the little Honda I have is rated for
2,000 watts
surge and 1600 watts continuous or 13.3 amps.Â* It ran my large
microwave
with a measured amperage draw of over 16 amps for a short time
but as
soon as I realized how much current was being drawn I shut the
microwave
off.Â* I wouldn't do that on a regular basis.Â* The circuit
breaker on the
generator never tripped.

I've been looking around for a larger portable generator but I
want one
with 4 poles instead of the typical 2 poles. 4 poles will allow
the
engine to run at 1800 RPM to produce it's rated output at 60Hz
instead
of the typical 3600 RPM in a 2 pole generator.Â* 3600 RPM is the
main
reason they are so noisy.





My Yamaha 2000 runs my Samsung camper microwave fine.Â* Never ran
it for a
long time, mostly heat water for coffee.


The Honda 2000 runs the smaller, counter-top microwave fine as
well, but
it's only rated at 750 watts versus the 1200 watts that the over
stove,
built in microwave is rated at.Â*Â* I purposely shopped for the lowest
wattage small microwave I could find and 750 watts seemed to be the
smallest.Â* It still draws about 11 amps when running, so it needs
1320
watts of power to produce 750 watts of microwave power.Â* 1320
watts is
within the Honda's rated continuous output of 1600 watts.

That's the thing. Can't confuse output power rating of the microwave
with the input required to produce it.Â* The large microwave was
drawing
slightly over 16 amps to produce 1200 watts of microwave power.
That's
at least 1920 watts.Â* The Honda is only rated for 1600 watts
continuous
output and 2000 watts "surge".Â* So to run the large microwave the
Honda
was running near or at it's surge rating continuously.Â* Not good.




That should have a 5-20 plug on it if it pulls 16a. I assume it is on
a dedicated 20a circuit.



It *is* on a dedicated 20a kitchen circuit although I was wrong about
it's microwave output power.Â* It's 1000 watts, not 1200 as I had
previously thought.

As mentioned in another post the sticker indicates a service
requirement
of 120vac at 1.64 Kw.Â* Output is listed as 1000 watts.Â* So, it
draws 13.666 amps running ... I measured 14 amps on house power, 16
amps
(briefly) on Honda power.

So, on house power:Â* 1640 watts in, 1000 watts out.Â* Makes sense to
me.


640w of waste heat coming out the vent sounds high to me. The vent on
mine is barely warm. I had more waste heat coming out of my satellite
receiver.


What makes you think the extra 640 watts is "waste heat"?

Any energy that is not going to the load (food in this case) is waste.
You have to assume the radiated power *mostly* ends up in the food so
anything else is waste.
The first thing you need to know when you are computing the HVAC load
(heat) in a computer room is the power coming in. (AKA sensible heat)
It is roughly 3400 BTU per KH and you assume all electricity coming in
goes out as heat so you are saying your microwave is pumping 2217.89
BTU in the air the whole time it is running ... plus what it does
heating the food?

Sorry I was an Installation Planning Rep too ;-)

I really think if all of that was true you could cook another hot dog
on the fan.



Well Greg, the specs on the sticker didn't lie.Â* Input power required
is 120vac, 1.64 Kw.Â* Output: 1Kw.Â* Confirmed by current reading of
14 amps when the microwave is running.

I'll do another test.Â* I'll run it again monitoring the current but
set the microwave power to 50 percent or so.Â* All that does is cycle
the magnetron on and off for a 50 percent duty cycle.Â* I'll see what the
current draw is when the magnetron is in it's "off" cycle.





Ok. Did the above described "test". With the magnetron running
the current draw is about 14 amps (bounces from about 13.8 to 14.1)
When the magnetron shuts off but the microwave is still running
the current drops to about 0.8 - 1.0 amperes. The fan, turntable,
internal light and control/display are still running.

So, when the fan, turntable, light and control/display are on, the
microwave is consuming about 108 watts (0.9a * 120v) of the 1640 watts
service rating.

The magnetron, when it kicks in, is using an additional 13 amps or
about 1560 watts.

108 watts plus 1560 watts = 1668 watts. Damn close to the service
rating of 1640 watts. I attribute the 28 watt discrepancy to
the accuracy of the Kill-a-Watt meter and the number I noted
as it ran. The current readings tend to bounce around a bit.

Each of the powered devices (the turntable motor, fan, light,
controls/display and magnetron) are not 100 percent efficient
obviously so there are losses in each that are given off in heat
but the numbers are pretty close to the sticker reading.
Obviously, the losses don't add up to 640 watts of "waste heat"
going out the vent, so that's why you can't cook a hot dog on it.

Thus ends my science experiment for the month. :-)

All 1668 watts end up being heat eventually. The only question is how
much ends up in the food.

On 10/13/2018 12:18 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 13 Oct 2018 05:31:57 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"



Ah, I think you are referring to industrial code requirements. Not sure
they all apply to residential wiring in a house but again, I am not
an electrician and don't even have a current code book. :-)

Nope 210.21(B)(2) applies to everyone
(2) Total Cord-and-Plug-Connected Load. Where connected
to a branch circuit supplying two or more receptacles
or outlets, a receptacle shall not supply a total cord and-
plug-connected load in excess of the maximum
specified in Table 210.21(B)(2)
http://gfretwell.com/electrical/Tabl...21%20B%202.jpg



Pardon my ignorance but doesn't "cord and plug" mean
an extension cord or the cord connected to the device
you plug into the receptacle (like a toaster)? If so, it sorta makes
sense. Tip off is that the 12 amps applies to both
15 amp and 20 amp branch circuits.

If I understand it correctly, a single, dedicated 20 amp outlet
with breaker and wire size (12 ga) can power a
plugged in device that draws up to 20 amps but
if that 20 amp branch circuit has two 20 amp outlets or more
you are not suppose to plug in anything that draws more than 12 amps.

If this is correct (probably isn't) who the hell enforces this?

On 10/13/18 12:18 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 13 Oct 2018 05:31:57 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/12/2018 10:36 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 19:10:14 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/12/2018 3:57 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 14:56:36 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/12/2018 2:04 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 14:37:24 -0000 (UTC), Bill
wrote:

Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 10/12/2018 5:49 AM, John H. wrote:
On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 05:04:47 -0000 (UTC), Bill wrote:

Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 10/11/2018 8:12 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 16:42:41 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/11/2018 3:40 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 14:11:23 -0400, John H.
wrote:


http://tinyurl.com/y7dezaq3

"The left is revving up attacks on capitalism just as workers on the
bottom rungs are beginning to
benefit from the booming U.S. economy. According to last week's jobs
report, unemployment has been
pushed back to its lowest level since 1969. Wages in blue-collar
industries, such as construction
and maintenance, are rising faster than for white-collar workers. Pay
for people without a college
education jumped almost 6 percent since last year -- triple the overall wage gain."

Gosh, I thought wage growth was stagnant.

There was an article in USA Today yesterday talking about .how wages
are going up across the board and some jobs are really taking off

BTW your link took me to Harbor Fright generators.

About that, why is my 5.5 KW Briggs 11 hp and theirs is 8?
They must have stronger horses in China



With no losses considered:

8 hp = 5.96Kw
11 hp = 8.2Kw

I completely forgot about a small generator I bought from a neighbor
last year. It was brand new, still in the box and she
decided to have a whole house generator installed instead. She
only wanted $200 for it but after looking it up I decided I'd be
ripping her off, so I gave her $300. It's rated at 4,750 peak watts
and 3800 watts continuous. Engine is 6.3 hp.

I put it together last spring and fired it up. Ran fine, was not
overly noisy (for a conventional type generator). It has electric
start which is nice and will run on gas or propane, although propane
is at a reduced output capacity. I ran it out of gas and stored it away
and, until just now, had forgotten I had it. It's a "Wren" that she got
from Home Depot:

https://tinyurl.com/ybef4hty

I keep hearing about the reduced output capacity on propane but I
don't see it. I will say fuel consumption is where the difference of
energy density shows up. At full load the gasoline consumption is
around 0.5 GPH and propane is more like 0.8 GPH although the gasoline
is easier to measure accurately. I am just going on a gauge on a 150
gallon tank and that is not very precise.
After a similar discussion on the real boat group I tested my
generator using my convection oven as the load.
This is 5402.7w running a 5500w generator on propane
http://gfretwell.com/Propaneproject/Onpropane.jpg
When I plugged in two 100w lights, it tripped the breaker before I
could take pictures.



I think any generator can temporarily exceed their rated capacity but
they may not last long if done on a regular basis. Windings and other
components will get hot and go "poof". It's not often that generators
are running all the time at full capacity and if they are, you probably
need a bigger generator. :-)

I mentioned before that the little Honda I have is rated for 2,000 watts
surge and 1600 watts continuous or 13.3 amps. It ran my large microwave
with a measured amperage draw of over 16 amps for a short time but as
soon as I realized how much current was being drawn I shut the microwave
off. I wouldn't do that on a regular basis. The circuit breaker on the
generator never tripped.

I've been looking around for a larger portable generator but I want one
with 4 poles instead of the typical 2 poles. 4 poles will allow the
engine to run at 1800 RPM to produce it's rated output at 60Hz instead
of the typical 3600 RPM in a 2 pole generator. 3600 RPM is the main
reason they are so noisy.





My Yamaha 2000 runs my Samsung camper microwave fine. Never ran it for a
long time, mostly heat water for coffee.



Even the bigger microwaves are only about 1200 watts. Shouldn't be a
problem for the 2000 watter.


John, the 1200 watt rating is the microwave output power, not the power
required to produce it. My 1200 watt microwave draws just over 16 amps
to run. 120v x 16 amps = 1920 watts which is over the continuous
output rating of the Honda (1600 watts). It means the Honda has to run
near or at it's "surge" capacity continuously in order to power the 1200
watt microwave.





I would figure most microwave units should be about 14 amps max. They are
designed to run on 15 amp circuits.

Max on a 15a circuit is 12a (1440w). There are a few exceptions but
none if it has a plug on it.



I am not a code expert but why then, when you go to Lowe's or Home Depot
are the wall receptacles marked as "15 amp" or "20 amp"?

I've always wired a 20 amp outlet with 12 ga romex and 15 amp with 14
ga. and use the appropriate breaker in the service panel. More often
than not I skip the 15 amp altogether and just wire for 20 amp.

Have the codes changed?

No.
A 20a has to be on 12ga but you can put a 15 on either as long as
there is more than one receptacle on the circuit. A duplex is 2.
There is no limit to how many you put on a circuit tho in residential.

Commercial has a 180va per duplex (90 per receptacle) rating for each
based on full circuit ampacity (not the 80%). I think Canada extends
that to residential.

The thinking in residential is receptacles are placed for convenience,
not actual load and most will not be used most of the time so you can
have all you want on a circuit. The NEC does not address "design".
Basically they are trying to avoid the need of extension cords and
cords running across doorways so the general rule is you are always
within 6' of a receptacle without crossing an opening. That includes
any wall space 24" or wider.
In the kitchen, on the counter top you are 2' from a receptacle.
This takes about 6-7 pages of fine print and pictures in the NEC to
describe. Damn lawyers ;-)
210.52 is one of the more confusing articles.



I understand all the convenience stuff but you said that "Max on a 15a
circuit is 12amps). So why do the 15 amp receptacles say "15 amps" on
them? Why is the 15 amp circuit fed from a 15 amp breaker? If code
says "max on a 15a circuit is 12 amps" why aren't the breakers 12 amps
and the receptacles labeled "12 amps" ?

That is per plug (or piece of fixed in place equipment)
There are a lot of things going on here. The rated amperes on a device
(receptacle switch etc) is what it can handle without burning up (per
the NRTL ; like U/L)
The ampacity of a conductor is what it an handle without burning up.
(and remain in a safe condition)
You dealt with labs, You know that stuff.
Then there is the code that tries to build an 80% safety margin into
everything. 15 becomes 12 and 20 becomes 16.
That is really only applicable to continuous loads (3 hours) but they
always err on the safe side. If you can plug it in, they assume you
need all help you can get so the NRTL puts the 1440w limit on a NEMA
5-15 plug and 1920w on a 5-20.





Ah, I think you are referring to industrial code requirements. Not sure
they all apply to residential wiring in a house but again, I am not
an electrician and don't even have a current code book. :-)

Nope 210.21(B)(2) applies to everyone
(2) Total Cord-and-Plug-Connected Load. Where connected
to a branch circuit supplying two or more receptacles
or outlets, a receptacle shall not supply a total cord and-
plug-connected load in excess of the maximum
specified in Table 210.21(B)(2)
http://gfretwell.com/electrical/Tabl...21%20B%202.jpg


The equipment I used to build had many three phase motors and other
relatively high powered components most of which ran on three phase
power. Most were 480v, delta and occasionally 208 wye, depending
on what the customer's service was. Typical service requirements
for the average system was 60-80 KVA

I used to spec the service requirements for the
whole system so the customer could plan for it' installation.

When I first started doing this and being knowledgeable of which motors,
etc. would be on and which would be off during the system's operation, I
specified the the service for the maximum KVA it could draw at any time
with a safety factor. The systems never had *all* the high power
consuming components running at the same time.

Later, as the company grew, more people were hired and my role became
more corporate management versus technical I hired an electrical
engineer with a P.E. to manage the electrical department. He changed
the way the systems were spec'd to include *all* the motors, etc. even
though they would never run together at the same time. He said the way
I had been doing it was ok ... safe ... but the code required the total
of all, running or not. All it did was cause the customer's service
requirements to go up dramatically but needlessly.

If the motors are not electrically interlocked so they can't run
together you need to compute the load based on the largest one at 125%
and the rest at 100% of the full load amps

430.24 Several Motors or a Motor(s) and Other
Load(s). Conductors supplying several motors, or a motor(
s) and other load(s), shall have an ampacity not less
than the sum of each of the following:
(1) 125 percent of the full-load current rating of the highest
rated motor, as determined by 430.6(A)
(2) Sum of the full-load current ratings of all the other
motors in the group, as determined by 430.6(A)
(3) 100 percent of the noncontinuous non-motor load
(4) 125 percent of the continuous non-motor load.
Informational Note: See Informative Annex D, Example
No. D8.
Exception No.1: Where one or more of the motors of the
group are used for short-time, intermittent, periodic, or
varying duty, the ampere rating of such ~motors to be used
in the summation shall be determined in accordance with
430. 22(E). For the highest rated motor, the greater of either
the ampere rating from 430.22(E) or the largest continuous
duty motor full-load current multiplied by 1.25
shall be used in the summation.
Exception No.2: The ampacity of conductors supplying
motor-operated fixed electric space-heating equipment
shall comply with 424.3(B).
Exception No.3: Where the circuitry is interlocked so as
to prevent simultaneous operation of selected motors or
other loads, the conductor ampacity shall be permitted to
be based on the summation of the currents of the motors
and other loads to be operated simultaneously that results
in the highest total current.


Damn! So, when the maids wash the floor and use my portable fans to help
it dry faster, I should insist they first make sure all the fan motors
are synchronized, right? Might you recommend a brand and model of
synchronizer?

On 10/13/2018 12:18 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 13 Oct 2018 05:31:57 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/12/2018 10:36 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 19:10:14 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/12/2018 3:57 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 14:56:36 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/12/2018 2:04 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 14:37:24 -0000 (UTC), Bill
wrote:

Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 10/12/2018 5:49 AM, John H. wrote:
On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 05:04:47 -0000 (UTC), Bill wrote:

Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 10/11/2018 8:12 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 16:42:41 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/11/2018 3:40 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 14:11:23 -0400, John H.
wrote:


http://tinyurl.com/y7dezaq3

"The left is revving up attacks on capitalism just as workers on the
bottom rungs are beginning to
benefit from the booming U.S. economy. According to last week's jobs
report, unemployment has been
pushed back to its lowest level since 1969. Wages in blue-collar
industries, such as construction
and maintenance, are rising faster than for white-collar workers. Pay
for people without a college
education jumped almost 6 percent since last year -- triple the overall wage gain."

Gosh, I thought wage growth was stagnant.

There was an article in USA Today yesterday talking about .how wages
are going up across the board and some jobs are really taking off

BTW your link took me to Harbor Fright generators.

About that, why is my 5.5 KW Briggs 11 hp and theirs is 8?
They must have stronger horses in China



With no losses considered:

8 hp = 5.96Kw
11 hp = 8.2Kw

I completely forgot about a small generator I bought from a neighbor
last year. It was brand new, still in the box and she
decided to have a whole house generator installed instead. She
only wanted $200 for it but after looking it up I decided I'd be
ripping her off, so I gave her $300. It's rated at 4,750 peak watts
and 3800 watts continuous. Engine is 6.3 hp.

I put it together last spring and fired it up. Ran fine, was not
overly noisy (for a conventional type generator). It has electric
start which is nice and will run on gas or propane, although propane
is at a reduced output capacity. I ran it out of gas and stored it away
and, until just now, had forgotten I had it. It's a "Wren" that she got
from Home Depot:

https://tinyurl.com/ybef4hty

I keep hearing about the reduced output capacity on propane but I
don't see it. I will say fuel consumption is where the difference of
energy density shows up. At full load the gasoline consumption is
around 0.5 GPH and propane is more like 0.8 GPH although the gasoline
is easier to measure accurately. I am just going on a gauge on a 150
gallon tank and that is not very precise.
After a similar discussion on the real boat group I tested my
generator using my convection oven as the load.
This is 5402.7w running a 5500w generator on propane
http://gfretwell.com/Propaneproject/Onpropane.jpg
When I plugged in two 100w lights, it tripped the breaker before I
could take pictures.



I think any generator can temporarily exceed their rated capacity but
they may not last long if done on a regular basis. Windings and other
components will get hot and go "poof". It's not often that generators
are running all the time at full capacity and if they are, you probably
need a bigger generator. :-)

I mentioned before that the little Honda I have is rated for 2,000 watts
surge and 1600 watts continuous or 13.3 amps. It ran my large microwave
with a measured amperage draw of over 16 amps for a short time but as
soon as I realized how much current was being drawn I shut the microwave
off. I wouldn't do that on a regular basis. The circuit breaker on the
generator never tripped.

I've been looking around for a larger portable generator but I want one
with 4 poles instead of the typical 2 poles. 4 poles will allow the
engine to run at 1800 RPM to produce it's rated output at 60Hz instead
of the typical 3600 RPM in a 2 pole generator. 3600 RPM is the main
reason they are so noisy.





My Yamaha 2000 runs my Samsung camper microwave fine. Never ran it for a
long time, mostly heat water for coffee.



Even the bigger microwaves are only about 1200 watts. Shouldn't be a
problem for the 2000 watter.


John, the 1200 watt rating is the microwave output power, not the power
required to produce it. My 1200 watt microwave draws just over 16 amps
to run. 120v x 16 amps = 1920 watts which is over the continuous
output rating of the Honda (1600 watts). It means the Honda has to run
near or at it's "surge" capacity continuously in order to power the 1200
watt microwave.





I would figure most microwave units should be about 14 amps max. They are
designed to run on 15 amp circuits.

Max on a 15a circuit is 12a (1440w). There are a few exceptions but
none if it has a plug on it.



I am not a code expert but why then, when you go to Lowe's or Home Depot
are the wall receptacles marked as "15 amp" or "20 amp"?

I've always wired a 20 amp outlet with 12 ga romex and 15 amp with 14
ga. and use the appropriate breaker in the service panel. More often
than not I skip the 15 amp altogether and just wire for 20 amp.

Have the codes changed?

No.
A 20a has to be on 12ga but you can put a 15 on either as long as
there is more than one receptacle on the circuit. A duplex is 2.
There is no limit to how many you put on a circuit tho in residential.

Commercial has a 180va per duplex (90 per receptacle) rating for each
based on full circuit ampacity (not the 80%). I think Canada extends
that to residential.

The thinking in residential is receptacles are placed for convenience,
not actual load and most will not be used most of the time so you can
have all you want on a circuit. The NEC does not address "design".
Basically they are trying to avoid the need of extension cords and
cords running across doorways so the general rule is you are always
within 6' of a receptacle without crossing an opening. That includes
any wall space 24" or wider.
In the kitchen, on the counter top you are 2' from a receptacle.
This takes about 6-7 pages of fine print and pictures in the NEC to
describe. Damn lawyers ;-)
210.52 is one of the more confusing articles.



I understand all the convenience stuff but you said that "Max on a 15a
circuit is 12amps). So why do the 15 amp receptacles say "15 amps" on
them? Why is the 15 amp circuit fed from a 15 amp breaker? If code
says "max on a 15a circuit is 12 amps" why aren't the breakers 12 amps
and the receptacles labeled "12 amps" ?

That is per plug (or piece of fixed in place equipment)
There are a lot of things going on here. The rated amperes on a device
(receptacle switch etc) is what it can handle without burning up (per
the NRTL ; like U/L)
The ampacity of a conductor is what it an handle without burning up.
(and remain in a safe condition)
You dealt with labs, You know that stuff.
Then there is the code that tries to build an 80% safety margin into
everything. 15 becomes 12 and 20 becomes 16.
That is really only applicable to continuous loads (3 hours) but they
always err on the safe side. If you can plug it in, they assume you
need all help you can get so the NRTL puts the 1440w limit on a NEMA
5-15 plug and 1920w on a 5-20.





Ah, I think you are referring to industrial code requirements. Not sure
they all apply to residential wiring in a house but again, I am not
an electrician and don't even have a current code book. :-)

Nope 210.21(B)(2) applies to everyone
(2) Total Cord-and-Plug-Connected Load. Where connected
to a branch circuit supplying two or more receptacles
or outlets, a receptacle shall not supply a total cord and-
plug-connected load in excess of the maximum
specified in Table 210.21(B)(2)
http://gfretwell.com/electrical/Tabl...21%20B%202.jpg


The equipment I used to build had many three phase motors and other
relatively high powered components most of which ran on three phase
power. Most were 480v, delta and occasionally 208 wye, depending
on what the customer's service was. Typical service requirements
for the average system was 60-80 KVA

I used to spec the service requirements for the
whole system so the customer could plan for it' installation.

When I first started doing this and being knowledgeable of which motors,
etc. would be on and which would be off during the system's operation, I
specified the the service for the maximum KVA it could draw at any time
with a safety factor. The systems never had *all* the high power
consuming components running at the same time.

Later, as the company grew, more people were hired and my role became
more corporate management versus technical I hired an electrical
engineer with a P.E. to manage the electrical department. He changed
the way the systems were spec'd to include *all* the motors, etc. even
though they would never run together at the same time. He said the way
I had been doing it was ok ... safe ... but the code required the total
of all, running or not. All it did was cause the customer's service
requirements to go up dramatically but needlessly.

If the motors are not electrically interlocked so they can't run
together you need to compute the load based on the largest one at 125%
and the rest at 100% of the full load amps

430.24 Several Motors or a Motor(s) and Other
Load(s). Conductors supplying several motors, or a motor(
s) and other load(s), shall have an ampacity not less
than the sum of each of the following:
(1) 125 percent of the full-load current rating of the highest
rated motor, as determined by 430.6(A)
(2) Sum of the full-load current ratings of all the other
motors in the group, as determined by 430.6(A)
(3) 100 percent of the noncontinuous non-motor load
(4) 125 percent of the continuous non-motor load.
Informational Note: See Informative Annex D, Example
No. D8.
Exception No.1: Where one or more of the motors of the
group are used for short-time, intermittent, periodic, or
varying duty, the ampere rating of such ~motors to be used
in the summation shall be determined in accordance with
430. 22(E). For the highest rated motor, the greater of either
the ampere rating from 430.22(E) or the largest continuous
duty motor full-load current multiplied by 1.25
shall be used in the summation.
Exception No.2: The ampacity of conductors supplying
motor-operated fixed electric space-heating equipment
shall comply with 424.3(B).
Exception No.3: Where the circuitry is interlocked so as
to prevent simultaneous operation of selected motors or
other loads, the conductor ampacity shall be permitted to
be based on the summation of the currents of the motors
and other loads to be operated simultaneously that results
in the highest total current.



I always did it in accordance with exception 3. The PE I hired
said no. But then you get into what states his license was
valid etc. Either way, it worked.

On 10/13/2018 1:12 PM, Keyser Soze wrote:
On 10/13/18 12:18 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 13 Oct 2018 05:31:57 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/12/2018 10:36 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 19:10:14 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/12/2018 3:57 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 14:56:36 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/12/2018 2:04 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 14:37:24 -0000 (UTC), Bill
wrote:

Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 10/12/2018 5:49 AM, John H. wrote:
On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 05:04:47 -0000 (UTC), Bill
wrote:

Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 10/11/2018 8:12 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 16:42:41 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/11/2018 3:40 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 14:11:23 -0400, John H.

wrote:


http://tinyurl.com/y7dezaq3

"The left is revving up attacks on capitalism just as
workers on the
bottom rungs are beginning to
benefit from the booming U.S. economy. According to
last week's jobs
report, unemployment has been
pushed back to its lowest level since 1969. Wages in
blue-collar
industries, such as construction
and maintenance, are rising faster than for
white-collar workers. Pay
for people without a college
education jumped almost 6 percent since last year --
triple the overall wage gain."

Gosh, I thought wage growth was stagnant.

There was an article in USA Today yesterday talking
about .how wages
are going up across the board and some jobs are really
taking off

BTW your link took me to Harbor Fright generators.

About that, why is my 5.5 KW Briggs 11 hp and theirs is 8?
They must have stronger horses in China



With no losses considered:

8 hp = 5.96Kw
11 hp = 8.2Kw

I completely forgot about a small generator I bought from
a neighbor
last year.Â* It was brand new, still in the box and she
decided to have a whole house generator installed
instead.Â* She
only wanted $200 for it but after looking it up I decided
I'd be
ripping her off, so I gave her $300.Â* It's rated at 4,750
peak watts
and 3800 watts continuous.Â* Engine is 6.3 hp.

I put it together last spring and fired it up.Â* Ran fine,
was not
overly noisy (for a conventional type generator).Â* It has
electric
start which is nice and will run on gas or propane,
although propane
is at a reduced output capacity.Â* I ran it out of gas and
stored it away
and, until just now, had forgotten I had it.Â* It's a
"Wren" that she got
from Home Depot:

https://tinyurl.com/ybef4hty

I keep hearing about the reduced output capacity on
propane but I
don't see it. I will say fuel consumption is where the
difference of
energy density shows up. At full load the gasoline
consumption is
around 0.5 GPH and propane is more like 0.8 GPH although
the gasoline
is easier to measure accurately. I am just going on a
gauge on a 150
gallon tank and that is not very precise.
After a similar discussion on the real boat group I tested my
generator using my convection oven as the load.
This is 5402.7w running a 5500w generator on propane
http://gfretwell.com/Propaneproject/Onpropane.jpg
When I plugged in two 100w lights, it tripped the breaker
before I
could take pictures.



I think any generator can temporarily exceed their rated
capacity but
they may not last long if done on a regular basis.
Windings and other
components will get hot and go "poof". It's not often that
generators
are running all the time at full capacity and if they are,
you probably
need a bigger generator.Â* :-)

I mentioned before that the little Honda I have is rated
for 2,000 watts
surge and 1600 watts continuous or 13.3 amps.Â* It ran my
large microwave
with a measured amperage draw of over 16 amps for a short
time but as
soon as I realized how much current was being drawn I shut
the microwave
off.Â* I wouldn't do that on a regular basis.Â* The circuit
breaker on the
generator never tripped.

I've been looking around for a larger portable generator
but I want one
with 4 poles instead of the typical 2 poles. 4 poles will
allow the
engine to run at 1800 RPM to produce it's rated output at
60Hz instead
of the typical 3600 RPM in a 2 pole generator.Â* 3600 RPM is
the main
reason they are so noisy.





My Yamaha 2000 runs my Samsung camper microwave fine.Â* Never
ran it for a
long time, mostly heat water for coffee.



Even the bigger microwaves are only about 1200 watts.
Shouldn't be a
problem for the 2000 watter.


John, the 1200 watt rating is the microwave output power, not
the power
required to produce it.Â* My 1200 watt microwave draws just
over 16 amps
to run.Â* 120v x 16 amps = 1920 wattsÂ* which is over the
continuous
output rating of the Honda (1600 watts).Â* It means the Honda
has to run
near or at it's "surge" capacity continuously in order to
power the 1200
watt microwave.





I would figure most microwave units should be about 14 amps
max.Â*Â* They are
designed to run on 15 amp circuits.

Max on a 15a circuit is 12a (1440w). There are a few exceptions but
none if it has a plug on it.



I am not a code expert but why then, when you go to Lowe's or
Home Depot
are the wall receptacles marked as "15 amp"Â* or "20 amp"?

I've always wired a 20 amp outlet with 12 ga romex and 15 amp
with 14
ga. and use the appropriate breaker in the service panel.Â* More
often
than not I skip the 15 amp altogether and just wire for 20 amp.

Have the codes changed?

No.
A 20a has to be on 12ga but you can put a 15 on either as long as
there is more than one receptacle on the circuit. A duplex is 2.
There is no limit to how many you put on a circuit tho in
residential.

Commercial has a 180va per duplex (90 per receptacle) rating for each
based on full circuit ampacity (not the 80%). I think Canada extends
that to residential.

The thinking in residential is receptacles are placed for
convenience,
not actual load and most will not be used most of the time so you can
have all you want on a circuit. The NEC does not address "design".
Basically they are trying to avoid the need of extension cords and
cords running across doorways so the general rule is you are always
within 6' of a receptacle without crossing an opening. That includes
any wall space 24" or wider.
In the kitchen, on the counter top you are 2' from a receptacle.
This takes about 6-7 pages of fine print and pictures in the NEC to
describe. Damn lawyersÂ* ;-)
210.52 is one of the more confusing articles.



I understand all the convenience stuff but you said that "Max on a 15a
circuit is 12amps).Â*Â* So why do the 15 amp receptacles say "15
amps" on
them?Â*Â* Why is the 15 amp circuit fed from a 15 amp breaker?Â* If code
says "max on a 15a circuit is 12 amps"Â* why aren't the breakers 12
amps
and the receptacles labeled "12 amps" ?

That is per plug (or piece of fixed in place equipment)
There are a lot of things going on here. The rated amperes on a device
(receptacle switch etc) is what it can handle without burning up (per
the NRTL ; like U/L)
The ampacity of a conductor is what it an handle without burning up.
(and remain in a safe condition)
You dealt with labs, You know that stuff.
Then there is the code that tries to build an 80% safety margin into
everything. 15 becomes 12 and 20 becomes 16.
That is really only applicable to continuous loads (3 hours) but they
always err on the safe side. If you can plug it in, they assume you
need all help you can get so the NRTL puts the 1440w limit on a NEMA
5-15 plug and 1920w on a 5-20.




Ah, I think you are referring to industrial code requirements. Not sure
they all apply to residential wiring in a house but again, I am not
an electrician and don't even have a current code book.Â* :-)

Nope 210.21(B)(2) applies to everyone
(2) Total Cord-and-Plug-Connected Load. Where connected
to a branch circuit supplying two or more receptacles
or outlets, a receptacle shall not supply a total cord and-
plug-connected load in excess of the maximum
specified in Table 210.21(B)(2)
http://gfretwell.com/electrical/Tabl...21%20B%202.jpg


The equipment I used to build had many three phase motors and other
relatively high powered components most of which ran on three phase
power.Â* Most were 480v, delta and occasionally 208 wye, depending
on what the customer's service was.Â* Typical service requirements
for the average system was 60-80 KVA

I used to spec the service requirements for the
whole system so the customer could plan for it' installation.

When I first started doing this and being knowledgeable of which motors,
etc. would be on and which would be off during the system's operation, I
specified the the service for the maximum KVA it could draw at any time
with a safety factor.Â* The systems never had *all* the high power
consuming components running at the same time.

Later, as the company grew, more people were hired and my role became
more corporate management versus technical I hired an electrical
engineer with a P.E. to manage the electrical department.Â* He changed
the way the systems were spec'd to include *all* the motors, etc. even
though they would never run together at the same time.Â* He said the way
I had been doing it was ok ... safe ... but the code required the total
of all, running or not.Â*Â* All it did was cause the customer's service
requirements to go up dramatically but needlessly.

If the motors are not electrically interlocked so they can't run
together you need to compute the load based on the largest one at 125%
and the rest at 100% of the full load amps

430.24 Several Motors or a Motor(s) and Other
Load(s). Conductors supplying several motors, or a motor(
s) and other load(s), shall have an ampacity not less
than the sum of each of the following:
(1) 125 percent of the full-load current rating of the highest
rated motor, as determined by 430.6(A)
(2) Sum of the full-load current ratings of all the other
motors in the group, as determined by 430.6(A)
(3) 100 percent of the noncontinuous non-motor load
(4) 125 percent of the continuous non-motor load.
Informational Note: See Informative Annex D, Example
No. D8.
Exception No.1: Where one or more of the motors of the
group are used for short-time, intermittent, periodic, or
varying duty, the ampere rating of such ~motors to be used
in the summation shall be determined in accordance with
430. 22(E). For the highest rated motor, the greater of either
the ampere rating from 430.22(E) or the largest continuous
duty motor full-load current multiplied by 1.25
shall be used in the summation.
Exception No.2: The ampacity of conductors supplying
motor-operated fixed electric space-heating equipment
shall comply with 424.3(B).
Exception No.3: Where the circuitry is interlocked so as
to prevent simultaneous operation of selected motors or
other loads, the conductor ampacity shall be permitted to
be based on the summation of the currents of the motors
and other loads to be operated simultaneously that results
in the highest total current.


Damn! So, when the maids wash the floor and use my portable fans to help
it dry faster, I should insist they first make sure all the fan motors
are synchronized, right? Might you recommend a brand and model of
synchronizer?Â*



??? I assume that was an attempt at humor.

On Sat, 13 Oct 2018 12:36:57 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/13/2018 12:18 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 13 Oct 2018 05:31:57 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"



Ah, I think you are referring to industrial code requirements. Not sure
they all apply to residential wiring in a house but again, I am not
an electrician and don't even have a current code book. :-)

Nope 210.21(B)(2) applies to everyone
(2) Total Cord-and-Plug-Connected Load. Where connected
to a branch circuit supplying two or more receptacles
or outlets, a receptacle shall not supply a total cord and-
plug-connected load in excess of the maximum
specified in Table 210.21(B)(2)
http://gfretwell.com/electrical/Tabl...21%20B%202.jpg



Pardon my ignorance but doesn't "cord and plug" mean
an extension cord or the cord connected to the device
you plug into the receptacle (like a toaster)? If so, it sorta makes
sense. Tip off is that the 12 amps applies to both
15 amp and 20 amp branch circuits.

If I understand it correctly, a single, dedicated 20 amp outlet
with breaker and wire size (12 ga) can power a
plugged in device that draws up to 20 amps but
if that 20 amp branch circuit has two 20 amp outlets or more
you are not suppose to plug in anything that draws more than 12 amps.

That is the maximum allowed per piece of equipment. If you have a
dedicated 20a circuit that piece of equipment will be max 16a.

If this is correct (probably isn't) who the hell enforces this?

It is enforced by 240.4(D) that mandates the 14ga=15a, 12ga=20a by the
allowable breaker size. If you plug in too much, you trip the breaker.

If you ran the Neher McGrath formula you would find 14 ga wire really
handles 20a and 12 ga handles 25a (310.16 used to say that but they
changed it because Canada did)
240.4(D) was put there too ensure you still had your 80% safety margin
when you turned the user loose.
http://gfretwell.com/electrical/Nehe...%20formula.jpg

They still enforce an additional 80% factor on each piece of
equipment, making 15=12

On Sat, 13 Oct 2018 13:12:59 -0400, Keyser Soze
wrote:

On 10/13/18 12:18 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 13 Oct 2018 05:31:57 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/12/2018 10:36 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 19:10:14 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/12/2018 3:57 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 14:56:36 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/12/2018 2:04 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 14:37:24 -0000 (UTC), Bill
wrote:

Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 10/12/2018 5:49 AM, John H. wrote:
On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 05:04:47 -0000 (UTC), Bill wrote:

Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 10/11/2018 8:12 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 16:42:41 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/11/2018 3:40 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 14:11:23 -0400, John H.
wrote:


http://tinyurl.com/y7dezaq3

"The left is revving up attacks on capitalism just as workers on the
bottom rungs are beginning to
benefit from the booming U.S. economy. According to last week's jobs
report, unemployment has been
pushed back to its lowest level since 1969. Wages in blue-collar
industries, such as construction
and maintenance, are rising faster than for white-collar workers. Pay
for people without a college
education jumped almost 6 percent since last year -- triple the overall wage gain."

Gosh, I thought wage growth was stagnant.

There was an article in USA Today yesterday talking about .how wages
are going up across the board and some jobs are really taking off

BTW your link took me to Harbor Fright generators.

About that, why is my 5.5 KW Briggs 11 hp and theirs is 8?
They must have stronger horses in China



With no losses considered:

8 hp = 5.96Kw
11 hp = 8.2Kw

I completely forgot about a small generator I bought from a neighbor
last year. It was brand new, still in the box and she
decided to have a whole house generator installed instead. She
only wanted $200 for it but after looking it up I decided I'd be
ripping her off, so I gave her $300. It's rated at 4,750 peak watts
and 3800 watts continuous. Engine is 6.3 hp.

I put it together last spring and fired it up. Ran fine, was not
overly noisy (for a conventional type generator). It has electric
start which is nice and will run on gas or propane, although propane
is at a reduced output capacity. I ran it out of gas and stored it away
and, until just now, had forgotten I had it. It's a "Wren" that she got
from Home Depot:

https://tinyurl.com/ybef4hty

I keep hearing about the reduced output capacity on propane but I
don't see it. I will say fuel consumption is where the difference of
energy density shows up. At full load the gasoline consumption is
around 0.5 GPH and propane is more like 0.8 GPH although the gasoline
is easier to measure accurately. I am just going on a gauge on a 150
gallon tank and that is not very precise.
After a similar discussion on the real boat group I tested my
generator using my convection oven as the load.
This is 5402.7w running a 5500w generator on propane
http://gfretwell.com/Propaneproject/Onpropane.jpg
When I plugged in two 100w lights, it tripped the breaker before I
could take pictures.



I think any generator can temporarily exceed their rated capacity but
they may not last long if done on a regular basis. Windings and other
components will get hot and go "poof". It's not often that generators
are running all the time at full capacity and if they are, you probably
need a bigger generator. :-)

I mentioned before that the little Honda I have is rated for 2,000 watts
surge and 1600 watts continuous or 13.3 amps. It ran my large microwave
with a measured amperage draw of over 16 amps for a short time but as
soon as I realized how much current was being drawn I shut the microwave
off. I wouldn't do that on a regular basis. The circuit breaker on the
generator never tripped.

I've been looking around for a larger portable generator but I want one
with 4 poles instead of the typical 2 poles. 4 poles will allow the
engine to run at 1800 RPM to produce it's rated output at 60Hz instead
of the typical 3600 RPM in a 2 pole generator. 3600 RPM is the main
reason they are so noisy.





My Yamaha 2000 runs my Samsung camper microwave fine. Never ran it for a
long time, mostly heat water for coffee.



Even the bigger microwaves are only about 1200 watts. Shouldn't be a
problem for the 2000 watter.


John, the 1200 watt rating is the microwave output power, not the power
required to produce it. My 1200 watt microwave draws just over 16 amps
to run. 120v x 16 amps = 1920 watts which is over the continuous
output rating of the Honda (1600 watts). It means the Honda has to run
near or at it's "surge" capacity continuously in order to power the 1200
watt microwave.





I would figure most microwave units should be about 14 amps max. They are
designed to run on 15 amp circuits.

Max on a 15a circuit is 12a (1440w). There are a few exceptions but
none if it has a plug on it.



I am not a code expert but why then, when you go to Lowe's or Home Depot
are the wall receptacles marked as "15 amp" or "20 amp"?

I've always wired a 20 amp outlet with 12 ga romex and 15 amp with 14
ga. and use the appropriate breaker in the service panel. More often
than not I skip the 15 amp altogether and just wire for 20 amp.

Have the codes changed?

No.
A 20a has to be on 12ga but you can put a 15 on either as long as
there is more than one receptacle on the circuit. A duplex is 2.
There is no limit to how many you put on a circuit tho in residential.

Commercial has a 180va per duplex (90 per receptacle) rating for each
based on full circuit ampacity (not the 80%). I think Canada extends
that to residential.

The thinking in residential is receptacles are placed for convenience,
not actual load and most will not be used most of the time so you can
have all you want on a circuit. The NEC does not address "design".
Basically they are trying to avoid the need of extension cords and
cords running across doorways so the general rule is you are always
within 6' of a receptacle without crossing an opening. That includes
any wall space 24" or wider.
In the kitchen, on the counter top you are 2' from a receptacle.
This takes about 6-7 pages of fine print and pictures in the NEC to
describe. Damn lawyers ;-)
210.52 is one of the more confusing articles.



I understand all the convenience stuff but you said that "Max on a 15a
circuit is 12amps). So why do the 15 amp receptacles say "15 amps" on
them? Why is the 15 amp circuit fed from a 15 amp breaker? If code
says "max on a 15a circuit is 12 amps" why aren't the breakers 12 amps
and the receptacles labeled "12 amps" ?

That is per plug (or piece of fixed in place equipment)
There are a lot of things going on here. The rated amperes on a device
(receptacle switch etc) is what it can handle without burning up (per
the NRTL ; like U/L)
The ampacity of a conductor is what it an handle without burning up.
(and remain in a safe condition)
You dealt with labs, You know that stuff.
Then there is the code that tries to build an 80% safety margin into
everything. 15 becomes 12 and 20 becomes 16.
That is really only applicable to continuous loads (3 hours) but they
always err on the safe side. If you can plug it in, they assume you
need all help you can get so the NRTL puts the 1440w limit on a NEMA
5-15 plug and 1920w on a 5-20.





Ah, I think you are referring to industrial code requirements. Not sure
they all apply to residential wiring in a house but again, I am not
an electrician and don't even have a current code book. :-)

Nope 210.21(B)(2) applies to everyone
(2) Total Cord-and-Plug-Connected Load. Where connected
to a branch circuit supplying two or more receptacles
or outlets, a receptacle shall not supply a total cord and-
plug-connected load in excess of the maximum
specified in Table 210.21(B)(2)
http://gfretwell.com/electrical/Tabl...21%20B%202.jpg


The equipment I used to build had many three phase motors and other
relatively high powered components most of which ran on three phase
power. Most were 480v, delta and occasionally 208 wye, depending
on what the customer's service was. Typical service requirements
for the average system was 60-80 KVA

I used to spec the service requirements for the
whole system so the customer could plan for it' installation.

When I first started doing this and being knowledgeable of which motors,
etc. would be on and which would be off during the system's operation, I
specified the the service for the maximum KVA it could draw at any time
with a safety factor. The systems never had *all* the high power
consuming components running at the same time.

Later, as the company grew, more people were hired and my role became
more corporate management versus technical I hired an electrical
engineer with a P.E. to manage the electrical department. He changed
the way the systems were spec'd to include *all* the motors, etc. even
though they would never run together at the same time. He said the way
I had been doing it was ok ... safe ... but the code required the total
of all, running or not. All it did was cause the customer's service
requirements to go up dramatically but needlessly.

If the motors are not electrically interlocked so they can't run
together you need to compute the load based on the largest one at 125%
and the rest at 100% of the full load amps

430.24 Several Motors or a Motor(s) and Other
Load(s). Conductors supplying several motors, or a motor(
s) and other load(s), shall have an ampacity not less
than the sum of each of the following:
(1) 125 percent of the full-load current rating of the highest
rated motor, as determined by 430.6(A)
(2) Sum of the full-load current ratings of all the other
motors in the group, as determined by 430.6(A)
(3) 100 percent of the noncontinuous non-motor load
(4) 125 percent of the continuous non-motor load.
Informational Note: See Informative Annex D, Example
No. D8.
Exception No.1: Where one or more of the motors of the
group are used for short-time, intermittent, periodic, or
varying duty, the ampere rating of such ~motors to be used
in the summation shall be determined in accordance with
430. 22(E). For the highest rated motor, the greater of either
the ampere rating from 430.22(E) or the largest continuous
duty motor full-load current multiplied by 1.25
shall be used in the summation.
Exception No.2: The ampacity of conductors supplying
motor-operated fixed electric space-heating equipment
shall comply with 424.3(B).
Exception No.3: Where the circuitry is interlocked so as
to prevent simultaneous operation of selected motors or
other loads, the conductor ampacity shall be permitted to
be based on the summation of the currents of the motors
and other loads to be operated simultaneously that results
in the highest total current.


Damn! So, when the maids wash the floor and use my portable fans to help
it dry faster, I should insist they first make sure all the fan motors
are synchronized, right? Might you recommend a brand and model of
synchronizer?

Don't worry Harry. PEPCO makes sure your fan motors, or any other
induction motor is sync'ed because they run at a multiple of the line
frequency minus the slip. The air they move becomes an excellent
rectifier tho so the air going across the floor is DC.

On Sat, 13 Oct 2018 15:07:53 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/13/2018 12:18 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 13 Oct 2018 05:31:57 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/12/2018 10:36 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 19:10:14 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/12/2018 3:57 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 14:56:36 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/12/2018 2:04 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 14:37:24 -0000 (UTC), Bill
wrote:

Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 10/12/2018 5:49 AM, John H. wrote:
On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 05:04:47 -0000 (UTC), Bill wrote:

Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 10/11/2018 8:12 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 16:42:41 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/11/2018 3:40 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 14:11:23 -0400, John H.
wrote:


http://tinyurl.com/y7dezaq3

"The left is revving up attacks on capitalism just as workers on the
bottom rungs are beginning to
benefit from the booming U.S. economy. According to last week's jobs
report, unemployment has been
pushed back to its lowest level since 1969. Wages in blue-collar
industries, such as construction
and maintenance, are rising faster than for white-collar workers. Pay
for people without a college
education jumped almost 6 percent since last year -- triple the overall wage gain."

Gosh, I thought wage growth was stagnant.

There was an article in USA Today yesterday talking about .how wages
are going up across the board and some jobs are really taking off

BTW your link took me to Harbor Fright generators.

About that, why is my 5.5 KW Briggs 11 hp and theirs is 8?
They must have stronger horses in China



With no losses considered:

8 hp = 5.96Kw
11 hp = 8.2Kw

I completely forgot about a small generator I bought from a neighbor
last year. It was brand new, still in the box and she
decided to have a whole house generator installed instead. She
only wanted $200 for it but after looking it up I decided I'd be
ripping her off, so I gave her $300. It's rated at 4,750 peak watts
and 3800 watts continuous. Engine is 6.3 hp.

I put it together last spring and fired it up. Ran fine, was not
overly noisy (for a conventional type generator). It has electric
start which is nice and will run on gas or propane, although propane
is at a reduced output capacity. I ran it out of gas and stored it away
and, until just now, had forgotten I had it. It's a "Wren" that she got
from Home Depot:

https://tinyurl.com/ybef4hty

I keep hearing about the reduced output capacity on propane but I
don't see it. I will say fuel consumption is where the difference of
energy density shows up. At full load the gasoline consumption is
around 0.5 GPH and propane is more like 0.8 GPH although the gasoline
is easier to measure accurately. I am just going on a gauge on a 150
gallon tank and that is not very precise.
After a similar discussion on the real boat group I tested my
generator using my convection oven as the load.
This is 5402.7w running a 5500w generator on propane
http://gfretwell.com/Propaneproject/Onpropane.jpg
When I plugged in two 100w lights, it tripped the breaker before I
could take pictures.



I think any generator can temporarily exceed their rated capacity but
they may not last long if done on a regular basis. Windings and other
components will get hot and go "poof". It's not often that generators
are running all the time at full capacity and if they are, you probably
need a bigger generator. :-)

I mentioned before that the little Honda I have is rated for 2,000 watts
surge and 1600 watts continuous or 13.3 amps. It ran my large microwave
with a measured amperage draw of over 16 amps for a short time but as
soon as I realized how much current was being drawn I shut the microwave
off. I wouldn't do that on a regular basis. The circuit breaker on the
generator never tripped.

I've been looking around for a larger portable generator but I want one
with 4 poles instead of the typical 2 poles. 4 poles will allow the
engine to run at 1800 RPM to produce it's rated output at 60Hz instead
of the typical 3600 RPM in a 2 pole generator. 3600 RPM is the main
reason they are so noisy.





My Yamaha 2000 runs my Samsung camper microwave fine. Never ran it for a
long time, mostly heat water for coffee.



Even the bigger microwaves are only about 1200 watts. Shouldn't be a
problem for the 2000 watter.


John, the 1200 watt rating is the microwave output power, not the power
required to produce it. My 1200 watt microwave draws just over 16 amps
to run. 120v x 16 amps = 1920 watts which is over the continuous
output rating of the Honda (1600 watts). It means the Honda has to run
near or at it's "surge" capacity continuously in order to power the 1200
watt microwave.





I would figure most microwave units should be about 14 amps max. They are
designed to run on 15 amp circuits.

Max on a 15a circuit is 12a (1440w). There are a few exceptions but
none if it has a plug on it.



I am not a code expert but why then, when you go to Lowe's or Home Depot
are the wall receptacles marked as "15 amp" or "20 amp"?

I've always wired a 20 amp outlet with 12 ga romex and 15 amp with 14
ga. and use the appropriate breaker in the service panel. More often
than not I skip the 15 amp altogether and just wire for 20 amp.

Have the codes changed?

No.
A 20a has to be on 12ga but you can put a 15 on either as long as
there is more than one receptacle on the circuit. A duplex is 2.
There is no limit to how many you put on a circuit tho in residential.

Commercial has a 180va per duplex (90 per receptacle) rating for each
based on full circuit ampacity (not the 80%). I think Canada extends
that to residential.

The thinking in residential is receptacles are placed for convenience,
not actual load and most will not be used most of the time so you can
have all you want on a circuit. The NEC does not address "design".
Basically they are trying to avoid the need of extension cords and
cords running across doorways so the general rule is you are always
within 6' of a receptacle without crossing an opening. That includes
any wall space 24" or wider.
In the kitchen, on the counter top you are 2' from a receptacle.
This takes about 6-7 pages of fine print and pictures in the NEC to
describe. Damn lawyers ;-)
210.52 is one of the more confusing articles.



I understand all the convenience stuff but you said that "Max on a 15a
circuit is 12amps). So why do the 15 amp receptacles say "15 amps" on
them? Why is the 15 amp circuit fed from a 15 amp breaker? If code
says "max on a 15a circuit is 12 amps" why aren't the breakers 12 amps
and the receptacles labeled "12 amps" ?

That is per plug (or piece of fixed in place equipment)
There are a lot of things going on here. The rated amperes on a device
(receptacle switch etc) is what it can handle without burning up (per
the NRTL ; like U/L)
The ampacity of a conductor is what it an handle without burning up.
(and remain in a safe condition)
You dealt with labs, You know that stuff.
Then there is the code that tries to build an 80% safety margin into
everything. 15 becomes 12 and 20 becomes 16.
That is really only applicable to continuous loads (3 hours) but they
always err on the safe side. If you can plug it in, they assume you
need all help you can get so the NRTL puts the 1440w limit on a NEMA
5-15 plug and 1920w on a 5-20.





Ah, I think you are referring to industrial code requirements. Not sure
they all apply to residential wiring in a house but again, I am not
an electrician and don't even have a current code book. :-)

Nope 210.21(B)(2) applies to everyone
(2) Total Cord-and-Plug-Connected Load. Where connected
to a branch circuit supplying two or more receptacles
or outlets, a receptacle shall not supply a total cord and-
plug-connected load in excess of the maximum
specified in Table 210.21(B)(2)
http://gfretwell.com/electrical/Tabl...21%20B%202.jpg


The equipment I used to build had many three phase motors and other
relatively high powered components most of which ran on three phase
power. Most were 480v, delta and occasionally 208 wye, depending
on what the customer's service was. Typical service requirements
for the average system was 60-80 KVA

I used to spec the service requirements for the
whole system so the customer could plan for it' installation.

When I first started doing this and being knowledgeable of which motors,
etc. would be on and which would be off during the system's operation, I
specified the the service for the maximum KVA it could draw at any time
with a safety factor. The systems never had *all* the high power
consuming components running at the same time.

Later, as the company grew, more people were hired and my role became
more corporate management versus technical I hired an electrical
engineer with a P.E. to manage the electrical department. He changed
the way the systems were spec'd to include *all* the motors, etc. even
though they would never run together at the same time. He said the way
I had been doing it was ok ... safe ... but the code required the total
of all, running or not. All it did was cause the customer's service
requirements to go up dramatically but needlessly.

If the motors are not electrically interlocked so they can't run
together you need to compute the load based on the largest one at 125%
and the rest at 100% of the full load amps

430.24 Several Motors or a Motor(s) and Other
Load(s). Conductors supplying several motors, or a motor(
s) and other load(s), shall have an ampacity not less
than the sum of each of the following:
(1) 125 percent of the full-load current rating of the highest
rated motor, as determined by 430.6(A)
(2) Sum of the full-load current ratings of all the other
motors in the group, as determined by 430.6(A)
(3) 100 percent of the noncontinuous non-motor load
(4) 125 percent of the continuous non-motor load.
Informational Note: See Informative Annex D, Example
No. D8.
Exception No.1: Where one or more of the motors of the
group are used for short-time, intermittent, periodic, or
varying duty, the ampere rating of such ~motors to be used
in the summation shall be determined in accordance with
430. 22(E). For the highest rated motor, the greater of either
the ampere rating from 430.22(E) or the largest continuous
duty motor full-load current multiplied by 1.25
shall be used in the summation.
Exception No.2: The ampacity of conductors supplying
motor-operated fixed electric space-heating equipment
shall comply with 424.3(B).
Exception No.3: Where the circuitry is interlocked so as
to prevent simultaneous operation of selected motors or
other loads, the conductor ampacity shall be permitted to
be based on the summation of the currents of the motors
and other loads to be operated simultaneously that results
in the highest total current.



I always did it in accordance with exception 3. The PE I hired
said no. But then you get into what states his license was
valid etc. Either way, it worked.


If they were in fact interlocked, either directly or by software
design, your engineer was being overly cautious. Did you have this
listed and what did U/L (or any other NRTL) say about it? If they
allowed the name plate value you originally used, that is all the
inspector needs to see.

110.3(B) Installation and Use. Listed or labeled equipment shall be
installed and used in accordance with any instructions included in the
listing or labeling.