On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 05:04:47 -0000 (UTC), Bill wrote:

Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 10/11/2018 8:12 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 16:42:41 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/11/2018 3:40 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 14:11:23 -0400, John H.
wrote:


http://tinyurl.com/y7dezaq3

"The left is revving up attacks on capitalism just as workers on the
bottom rungs are beginning to
benefit from the booming U.S. economy. According to last week's jobs
report, unemployment has been
pushed back to its lowest level since 1969. Wages in blue-collar
industries, such as construction
and maintenance, are rising faster than for white-collar workers. Pay
for people without a college
education jumped almost 6 percent since last year -- triple the overall wage gain."

Gosh, I thought wage growth was stagnant.

There was an article in USA Today yesterday talking about .how wages
are going up across the board and some jobs are really taking off

BTW your link took me to Harbor Fright generators.

About that, why is my 5.5 KW Briggs 11 hp and theirs is 8?
They must have stronger horses in China



With no losses considered:

8 hp = 5.96Kw
11 hp = 8.2Kw

I completely forgot about a small generator I bought from a neighbor
last year. It was brand new, still in the box and she
decided to have a whole house generator installed instead. She
only wanted $200 for it but after looking it up I decided I'd be
ripping her off, so I gave her $300. It's rated at 4,750 peak watts
and 3800 watts continuous. Engine is 6.3 hp.

I put it together last spring and fired it up. Ran fine, was not
overly noisy (for a conventional type generator). It has electric
start which is nice and will run on gas or propane, although propane
is at a reduced output capacity. I ran it out of gas and stored it away
and, until just now, had forgotten I had it. It's a "Wren" that she got
from Home Depot:

https://tinyurl.com/ybef4hty

I keep hearing about the reduced output capacity on propane but I
don't see it. I will say fuel consumption is where the difference of
energy density shows up. At full load the gasoline consumption is
around 0.5 GPH and propane is more like 0.8 GPH although the gasoline
is easier to measure accurately. I am just going on a gauge on a 150
gallon tank and that is not very precise.
After a similar discussion on the real boat group I tested my
generator using my convection oven as the load.
This is 5402.7w running a 5500w generator on propane
http://gfretwell.com/Propaneproject/Onpropane.jpg
When I plugged in two 100w lights, it tripped the breaker before I
could take pictures.



I think any generator can temporarily exceed their rated capacity but
they may not last long if done on a regular basis. Windings and other
components will get hot and go "poof". It's not often that generators
are running all the time at full capacity and if they are, you probably
need a bigger generator. :-)

I mentioned before that the little Honda I have is rated for 2,000 watts
surge and 1600 watts continuous or 13.3 amps. It ran my large microwave
with a measured amperage draw of over 16 amps for a short time but as
soon as I realized how much current was being drawn I shut the microwave
off. I wouldn't do that on a regular basis. The circuit breaker on the
generator never tripped.

I've been looking around for a larger portable generator but I want one
with 4 poles instead of the typical 2 poles. 4 poles will allow the
engine to run at 1800 RPM to produce it's rated output at 60Hz instead
of the typical 3600 RPM in a 2 pole generator. 3600 RPM is the main
reason they are so noisy.





My Yamaha 2000 runs my Samsung camper microwave fine. Never ran it for a
long time, mostly heat water for coffee.

Even the bigger microwaves are only about 1200 watts. Shouldn't be a problem for the 2000 watter.

On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 22:01:17 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 21:01:45 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/11/2018 8:45 PM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 15:40:55 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 14:11:23 -0400, John H.
wrote:


http://tinyurl.com/y7dezaq3

"The left is revving up attacks on capitalism just as workers on the bottom rungs are beginning to
benefit from the booming U.S. economy. According to last week's jobs report, unemployment has been
pushed back to its lowest level since 1969. Wages in blue-collar industries, such as construction
and maintenance, are rising faster than for white-collar workers. Pay for people without a college
education jumped almost 6 percent since last year -- triple the overall wage gain."

Gosh, I thought wage growth was stagnant.

There was an article in USA Today yesterday talking about .how wages
are going up across the board and some jobs are really taking off

BTW your link took me to Harbor Fright generators.

About that, why is my 5.5 KW Briggs 11 hp and theirs is 8?
They must have stronger horses in China

===


In my experience the normal ratio of horsepower to KW is 2:1. Anything
less should be considered suspect.


We shouldn't confuse horsepower and watts with horsepower and generator
output in watts.

1 hp = 745.7 watts so 8 hp = 5965.6 watts. That's simply the engine
power.

The generator output in watts will obviously be considerably lower.


Makes you wonder how good that 8hp 5.5kw Harbor Fright generator could
be.

===

That was my point when I stated the normal 2:1 ratio of HP to KW.

On 10/11/2018 9:09 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 20:25:07 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/11/2018 8:12 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 16:42:41 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/11/2018 3:40 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 14:11:23 -0400, John H.
wrote:


http://tinyurl.com/y7dezaq3

"The left is revving up attacks on capitalism just as workers on the bottom rungs are beginning to
benefit from the booming U.S. economy. According to last week's jobs report, unemployment has been
pushed back to its lowest level since 1969. Wages in blue-collar industries, such as construction
and maintenance, are rising faster than for white-collar workers. Pay for people without a college
education jumped almost 6 percent since last year -- triple the overall wage gain."

Gosh, I thought wage growth was stagnant.

There was an article in USA Today yesterday talking about .how wages
are going up across the board and some jobs are really taking off

BTW your link took me to Harbor Fright generators.

About that, why is my 5.5 KW Briggs 11 hp and theirs is 8?
They must have stronger horses in China



With no losses considered:

8 hp = 5.96Kw
11 hp = 8.2Kw

I completely forgot about a small generator I bought from a neighbor
last year. It was brand new, still in the box and she
decided to have a whole house generator installed instead. She
only wanted $200 for it but after looking it up I decided I'd be
ripping her off, so I gave her $300. It's rated at 4,750 peak watts
and 3800 watts continuous. Engine is 6.3 hp.

I put it together last spring and fired it up. Ran fine, was not
overly noisy (for a conventional type generator). It has electric
start which is nice and will run on gas or propane, although propane
is at a reduced output capacity. I ran it out of gas and stored it away
and, until just now, had forgotten I had it. It's a "Wren" that she got
from Home Depot:

https://tinyurl.com/ybef4hty

I keep hearing about the reduced output capacity on propane but I
don't see it. I will say fuel consumption is where the difference of
energy density shows up. At full load the gasoline consumption is
around 0.5 GPH and propane is more like 0.8 GPH although the gasoline
is easier to measure accurately. I am just going on a gauge on a 150
gallon tank and that is not very precise.
After a similar discussion on the real boat group I tested my
generator using my convection oven as the load.
This is 5402.7w running a 5500w generator on propane
http://gfretwell.com/Propaneproject/Onpropane.jpg
When I plugged in two 100w lights, it tripped the breaker before I
could take pictures.



The reduced capacity on propane is in the manufacturer's specs for the
generator.

It isn't a huge reduction. On gas it is rated at 4750 surge and 3800
running watts.

On propane the ratings drop a bit to 4350 surge and 3500 running watts.

So, 400 watt reduction in surge capacity and 300 watt reduction in
continuous running capacity.


Maybe it is just because my generator is using an 11hp engine. The
engine may be oversized for the generator head.
I really wonder if I could go with a bigger breaker because that is
what cooked off when I was doing the test. I am not screwing with it
tho since everything seems to be working OK for what I need.



Yep. The "leave well enough alone" strategy always works. My problem
has always been that I often can't.

On 10/11/2018 9:58 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 20:41:49 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/11/2018 8:12 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 16:42:41 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/11/2018 3:40 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 14:11:23 -0400, John H.
wrote:


http://tinyurl.com/y7dezaq3

"The left is revving up attacks on capitalism just as workers on the bottom rungs are beginning to
benefit from the booming U.S. economy. According to last week's jobs report, unemployment has been
pushed back to its lowest level since 1969. Wages in blue-collar industries, such as construction
and maintenance, are rising faster than for white-collar workers. Pay for people without a college
education jumped almost 6 percent since last year -- triple the overall wage gain."

Gosh, I thought wage growth was stagnant.

There was an article in USA Today yesterday talking about .how wages
are going up across the board and some jobs are really taking off

BTW your link took me to Harbor Fright generators.

About that, why is my 5.5 KW Briggs 11 hp and theirs is 8?
They must have stronger horses in China



With no losses considered:

8 hp = 5.96Kw
11 hp = 8.2Kw

I completely forgot about a small generator I bought from a neighbor
last year. It was brand new, still in the box and she
decided to have a whole house generator installed instead. She
only wanted $200 for it but after looking it up I decided I'd be
ripping her off, so I gave her $300. It's rated at 4,750 peak watts
and 3800 watts continuous. Engine is 6.3 hp.

I put it together last spring and fired it up. Ran fine, was not
overly noisy (for a conventional type generator). It has electric
start which is nice and will run on gas or propane, although propane
is at a reduced output capacity. I ran it out of gas and stored it away
and, until just now, had forgotten I had it. It's a "Wren" that she got
from Home Depot:

https://tinyurl.com/ybef4hty

I keep hearing about the reduced output capacity on propane but I
don't see it. I will say fuel consumption is where the difference of
energy density shows up. At full load the gasoline consumption is
around 0.5 GPH and propane is more like 0.8 GPH although the gasoline
is easier to measure accurately. I am just going on a gauge on a 150
gallon tank and that is not very precise.
After a similar discussion on the real boat group I tested my
generator using my convection oven as the load.
This is 5402.7w running a 5500w generator on propane
http://gfretwell.com/Propaneproject/Onpropane.jpg
When I plugged in two 100w lights, it tripped the breaker before I
could take pictures.



I think any generator can temporarily exceed their rated capacity but
they may not last long if done on a regular basis. Windings and other
components will get hot and go "poof". It's not often that generators
are running all the time at full capacity and if they are, you probably
need a bigger generator. :-)

I mentioned before that the little Honda I have is rated for 2,000 watts
surge and 1600 watts continuous or 13.3 amps. It ran my large microwave
with a measured amperage draw of over 16 amps for a short time but as
soon as I realized how much current was being drawn I shut the microwave
off. I wouldn't do that on a regular basis. The circuit breaker on the
generator never tripped.

I've been looking around for a larger portable generator but I want one
with 4 poles instead of the typical 2 poles. 4 poles will allow the
engine to run at 1800 RPM to produce it's rated output at 60Hz instead
of the typical 3600 RPM in a 2 pole generator. 3600 RPM is the main
reason they are so noisy.


That still has little to do with propane vs gas tho. The generator
head does not know what is spinning it up. I am guessing they sized
the breaker to protect the generator. If not, why bother with the
breaker?
It does seem to cook off at the rated output, your Honda didn't.



I suspect that if I had let it run longer powering the large microwave
the breaker would have popped. Most circuit breakers will allow
for a brief over-current situation until they heat up enough to trip.

On 10/12/2018 1:04 AM, Bill wrote:
Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 10/11/2018 8:12 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 16:42:41 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/11/2018 3:40 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 14:11:23 -0400, John H.
wrote:


http://tinyurl.com/y7dezaq3

"The left is revving up attacks on capitalism just as workers on the
bottom rungs are beginning to
benefit from the booming U.S. economy. According to last week's jobs
report, unemployment has been
pushed back to its lowest level since 1969. Wages in blue-collar
industries, such as construction
and maintenance, are rising faster than for white-collar workers. Pay
for people without a college
education jumped almost 6 percent since last year -- triple the overall wage gain."

Gosh, I thought wage growth was stagnant.

There was an article in USA Today yesterday talking about .how wages
are going up across the board and some jobs are really taking off

BTW your link took me to Harbor Fright generators.

About that, why is my 5.5 KW Briggs 11 hp and theirs is 8?
They must have stronger horses in China



With no losses considered:

8 hp = 5.96Kw
11 hp = 8.2Kw

I completely forgot about a small generator I bought from a neighbor
last year. It was brand new, still in the box and she
decided to have a whole house generator installed instead. She
only wanted $200 for it but after looking it up I decided I'd be
ripping her off, so I gave her $300. It's rated at 4,750 peak watts
and 3800 watts continuous. Engine is 6.3 hp.

I put it together last spring and fired it up. Ran fine, was not
overly noisy (for a conventional type generator). It has electric
start which is nice and will run on gas or propane, although propane
is at a reduced output capacity. I ran it out of gas and stored it away
and, until just now, had forgotten I had it. It's a "Wren" that she got
from Home Depot:

https://tinyurl.com/ybef4hty

I keep hearing about the reduced output capacity on propane but I
don't see it. I will say fuel consumption is where the difference of
energy density shows up. At full load the gasoline consumption is
around 0.5 GPH and propane is more like 0.8 GPH although the gasoline
is easier to measure accurately. I am just going on a gauge on a 150
gallon tank and that is not very precise.
After a similar discussion on the real boat group I tested my
generator using my convection oven as the load.
This is 5402.7w running a 5500w generator on propane
http://gfretwell.com/Propaneproject/Onpropane.jpg
When I plugged in two 100w lights, it tripped the breaker before I
could take pictures.



I think any generator can temporarily exceed their rated capacity but
they may not last long if done on a regular basis. Windings and other
components will get hot and go "poof". It's not often that generators
are running all the time at full capacity and if they are, you probably
need a bigger generator. :-)

I mentioned before that the little Honda I have is rated for 2,000 watts
surge and 1600 watts continuous or 13.3 amps. It ran my large microwave
with a measured amperage draw of over 16 amps for a short time but as
soon as I realized how much current was being drawn I shut the microwave
off. I wouldn't do that on a regular basis. The circuit breaker on the
generator never tripped.

I've been looking around for a larger portable generator but I want one
with 4 poles instead of the typical 2 poles. 4 poles will allow the
engine to run at 1800 RPM to produce it's rated output at 60Hz instead
of the typical 3600 RPM in a 2 pole generator. 3600 RPM is the main
reason they are so noisy.





My Yamaha 2000 runs my Samsung camper microwave fine. Never ran it for a
long time, mostly heat water for coffee.


The Honda 2000 runs the smaller, counter-top microwave fine as well, but
it's only rated at 750 watts versus the 1200 watts that the over stove,
built in microwave is rated at. I purposely shopped for the lowest
wattage small microwave I could find and 750 watts seemed to be the
smallest. It still draws about 11 amps when running, so it needs 1320
watts of power to produce 750 watts of microwave power. 1320 watts is
within the Honda's rated continuous output of 1600 watts.

That's the thing. Can't confuse output power rating of the microwave
with the input required to produce it. The large microwave was drawing
slightly over 16 amps to produce 1200 watts of microwave power. That's
at least 1920 watts. The Honda is only rated for 1600 watts continuous
output and 2000 watts "surge". So to run the large microwave the Honda
was running near or at it's surge rating continuously. Not good.

On 10/12/2018 5:49 AM, John H. wrote:
On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 05:04:47 -0000 (UTC), Bill wrote:

Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 10/11/2018 8:12 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 16:42:41 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/11/2018 3:40 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 14:11:23 -0400, John H.
wrote:


http://tinyurl.com/y7dezaq3

"The left is revving up attacks on capitalism just as workers on the
bottom rungs are beginning to
benefit from the booming U.S. economy. According to last week's jobs
report, unemployment has been
pushed back to its lowest level since 1969. Wages in blue-collar
industries, such as construction
and maintenance, are rising faster than for white-collar workers. Pay
for people without a college
education jumped almost 6 percent since last year -- triple the overall wage gain."

Gosh, I thought wage growth was stagnant.

There was an article in USA Today yesterday talking about .how wages
are going up across the board and some jobs are really taking off

BTW your link took me to Harbor Fright generators.

About that, why is my 5.5 KW Briggs 11 hp and theirs is 8?
They must have stronger horses in China



With no losses considered:

8 hp = 5.96Kw
11 hp = 8.2Kw

I completely forgot about a small generator I bought from a neighbor
last year. It was brand new, still in the box and she
decided to have a whole house generator installed instead. She
only wanted $200 for it but after looking it up I decided I'd be
ripping her off, so I gave her $300. It's rated at 4,750 peak watts
and 3800 watts continuous. Engine is 6.3 hp.

I put it together last spring and fired it up. Ran fine, was not
overly noisy (for a conventional type generator). It has electric
start which is nice and will run on gas or propane, although propane
is at a reduced output capacity. I ran it out of gas and stored it away
and, until just now, had forgotten I had it. It's a "Wren" that she got
from Home Depot:

https://tinyurl.com/ybef4hty

I keep hearing about the reduced output capacity on propane but I
don't see it. I will say fuel consumption is where the difference of
energy density shows up. At full load the gasoline consumption is
around 0.5 GPH and propane is more like 0.8 GPH although the gasoline
is easier to measure accurately. I am just going on a gauge on a 150
gallon tank and that is not very precise.
After a similar discussion on the real boat group I tested my
generator using my convection oven as the load.
This is 5402.7w running a 5500w generator on propane
http://gfretwell.com/Propaneproject/Onpropane.jpg
When I plugged in two 100w lights, it tripped the breaker before I
could take pictures.



I think any generator can temporarily exceed their rated capacity but
they may not last long if done on a regular basis. Windings and other
components will get hot and go "poof". It's not often that generators
are running all the time at full capacity and if they are, you probably
need a bigger generator. :-)

I mentioned before that the little Honda I have is rated for 2,000 watts
surge and 1600 watts continuous or 13.3 amps. It ran my large microwave
with a measured amperage draw of over 16 amps for a short time but as
soon as I realized how much current was being drawn I shut the microwave
off. I wouldn't do that on a regular basis. The circuit breaker on the
generator never tripped.

I've been looking around for a larger portable generator but I want one
with 4 poles instead of the typical 2 poles. 4 poles will allow the
engine to run at 1800 RPM to produce it's rated output at 60Hz instead
of the typical 3600 RPM in a 2 pole generator. 3600 RPM is the main
reason they are so noisy.





My Yamaha 2000 runs my Samsung camper microwave fine. Never ran it for a
long time, mostly heat water for coffee.



Even the bigger microwaves are only about 1200 watts. Shouldn't be a problem for the 2000 watter.


John, the 1200 watt rating is the microwave output power, not the power
required to produce it. My 1200 watt microwave draws just over 16 amps
to run. 120v x 16 amps = 1920 watts which is over the continuous
output rating of the Honda (1600 watts). It means the Honda has to run
near or at it's "surge" capacity continuously in order to power the 1200
watt microwave.

On 10/11/2018 10:00 PM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 21:01:45 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/11/2018 8:45 PM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 15:40:55 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 14:11:23 -0400, John H.
wrote:


http://tinyurl.com/y7dezaq3

"The left is revving up attacks on capitalism just as workers on the bottom rungs are beginning to
benefit from the booming U.S. economy. According to last week's jobs report, unemployment has been
pushed back to its lowest level since 1969. Wages in blue-collar industries, such as construction
and maintenance, are rising faster than for white-collar workers. Pay for people without a college
education jumped almost 6 percent since last year -- triple the overall wage gain."

Gosh, I thought wage growth was stagnant.

There was an article in USA Today yesterday talking about .how wages
are going up across the board and some jobs are really taking off

BTW your link took me to Harbor Fright generators.

About that, why is my 5.5 KW Briggs 11 hp and theirs is 8?
They must have stronger horses in China

===


In my experience the normal ratio of horsepower to KW is 2:1. Anything
less should be considered suspect.


We shouldn't confuse horsepower and watts with horsepower and generator
output in watts.

1 hp = 745.7 watts so 8 hp = 5965.6 watts. That's simply the engine
power.

The generator output in watts will obviously be considerably lower.



===

Understood but 1 HP = 745.7 watts is the theoretical maximum. In
reality you need considerably more horsepower to produse a KW because
of electrical and mechanical losses, and because the engine is usually
not being run at the RPM which produces peak power.



Agreed. But again, I think the confusion is the conversion of hp to Kw
which is the engine only. It doesn't consider what the engine is doing
with that Kw and the loses occurred in generating an output.

Good example is the current discussion about microwave ovens. There's
some confusion about the rating of the microwave's output power versus
the power required to produce that output.

On 10/12/18 8:10 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 10/11/2018 10:00 PM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 21:01:45 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/11/2018 8:45 PM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 15:40:55 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 14:11:23 -0400, John H.
wrote:


http://tinyurl.com/y7dezaq3

"The left is revving up attacks on capitalism just as workers on
the bottom rungs are beginning to
benefit from the booming U.S. economy. According to last week's
jobs report, unemployment has been
pushed back to its lowest level since 1969. Wages in blue-collar
industries, such as construction
and maintenance, are rising faster than for white-collar workers.
Pay for people without a college
education jumped almost 6 percent since last year -- triple the
overall wage gain."

Gosh, I thought wage growth was stagnant.

There was an article in USA Today yesterday talking about .how wages
are going up across the board and some jobs are really taking off

BTW your link took me to Harbor Fright generators.

About that, why is my 5.5 KW Briggs 11 hp and theirs is 8?
They must have stronger horses in China

===


In my experience the normal ratio of horsepower to KW is 2:1. Anything
less should be considered suspect.


We shouldn't confuse horsepower and watts with horsepower and generator
output in watts.

1 hp = 745.7 wattsÂ*Â* so 8 hp = 5965.6 watts.Â* That's simply the engine
power.

The generator output in watts will obviously be considerably lower.



===

Understood but 1 HP = 745.7 watts is the theoretical maximum.Â* In
reality you need considerably more horsepower to produse a KW because
of electrical and mechanical losses, and because the engine is usually
not being run at the RPM which produces peak power.



Agreed.Â* But again, I think the confusion is the conversion of hp to Kw
which is the engine only.Â* It doesn't consider what the engine is doing
with that Kw and the loses occurred in generating an output.

Good example is the current discussion about microwave ovens.Â* There's
some confusion about the rating of the microwave's output power versus
the power required to produce that output.


I happen to have that info handy because I looked it up last week when I
had to replace a dead microwave oven. Here's how it is figured:

A 1200 watt output microwave takes 10. The typical formula for this is..
P = VI.. I = P/V = 1200 /120 =10 A. Hence, one would think that the
answer is 10 A.. However, this formula applies only for DC current. For
AC current,. P=VI cos (theta). where theta is the phase difference
between V and I.. This phase difference is created by the inductances
inside the microwave oven. This phase difference is probably mentioned
on the specifications of the microwave.. Otherwise another specification
maybe mentioned called "MVA".. Power (measured in MVA) = V * I. Using
this , we can directly measure the I.. However, in the absence of either
of the two additional information, it is impossible to fully find I.

The new micro, in the manual, states:

Rated power consumption 1250 watts
Max Microwave output 1200 watts
Frequency 2450 MHz
Rated Current 10.4 A

OF course, those are Chinese measurements.

On 10/12/2018 8:23 AM, Keyser Soze wrote:
On 10/12/18 8:10 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 10/11/2018 10:00 PM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 21:01:45 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/11/2018 8:45 PM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 15:40:55 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 14:11:23 -0400, John H.
wrote:


http://tinyurl.com/y7dezaq3

"The left is revving up attacks on capitalism just as workers on
the bottom rungs are beginning to
benefit from the booming U.S. economy. According to last week's
jobs report, unemployment has been
pushed back to its lowest level since 1969. Wages in blue-collar
industries, such as construction
and maintenance, are rising faster than for white-collar workers.
Pay for people without a college
education jumped almost 6 percent since last year -- triple the
overall wage gain."

Gosh, I thought wage growth was stagnant.

There was an article in USA Today yesterday talking about .how wages
are going up across the board and some jobs are really taking off

BTW your link took me to Harbor Fright generators.

About that, why is my 5.5 KW Briggs 11 hp and theirs is 8?
They must have stronger horses in China

===


In my experience the normal ratio of horsepower to KW is 2:1. Anything
less should be considered suspect.


We shouldn't confuse horsepower and watts with horsepower and generator
output in watts.

1 hp = 745.7 wattsÂ*Â* so 8 hp = 5965.6 watts.Â* That's simply the engine
power.

The generator output in watts will obviously be considerably lower.



===

Understood but 1 HP = 745.7 watts is the theoretical maximum.Â* In
reality you need considerably more horsepower to produse a KW because
of electrical and mechanical losses, and because the engine is usually
not being run at the RPM which produces peak power.



Agreed.Â* But again, I think the confusion is the conversion of hp to Kw
which is the engine only.Â* It doesn't consider what the engine is doing
with that Kw and the loses occurred in generating an output.

Good example is the current discussion about microwave ovens.Â* There's
some confusion about the rating of the microwave's output power versus
the power required to produce that output.


I happen to have that info handy because I looked it up last week when I
had to replace a dead microwave oven. Here's how it is figured:

A 1200 watt output microwave takes 10. The typical formula for this is..
P = VI.. I = P/V = 1200 /120 =10 A. Hence, one would think that the
answer is 10 A.. However, this formula applies only for DC current. For
AC current,. P=VI cos (theta). where theta is the phase difference
between V and I.. This phase difference is created by the inductances
inside the microwave oven. This phase difference is probably mentioned
on the specifications of the microwave.. Otherwise another specification
maybe mentioned called "MVA".. Power (measured in MVA) = V * I. Using
this , we can directly measure the I.. However, in the absence of either
of the two additional information, it is impossible to fully find I.

The new micro, in the manual, states:

Rated power consumptionÂ* 1250 watts
Max Microwave outputÂ*Â*Â*Â* 1200 watts
FrequencyÂ*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* 2450 MHz
Rated CurrentÂ*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* 10.4 A

OF course, those are Chinese measurements.Â*Â*


Heh. Again, those are the ratings of the microwave output power, mostly
the klystron that actually produces the microwave energy. If taken as
the power required (you can forget about all the phase relationships
of voltage vs current and DC vs AC for this purpose) it would mean that
the microwave is 100% efficient in converting input power to output
power which is impossible.

It may vary somewhat from microwave to microwave and it's age but
a 1200 watt microwave draws considerably more current (power) to
run compared to it's rated output powers. In the case of my relatively
new 1200 watt microwave, the measured current draw is slightly over 16
amperes. Call it 16 amps. 120v * 16 amperes = 1920 watts.

Even the smaller, 750 watt microwave draws about 11 amps to produce
it's rated output of 750 watts. 120v * 11 amperes = 1320 watts.

On 10/12/2018 8:45 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 10/12/2018 8:23 AM, Keyser Soze wrote:
On 10/12/18 8:10 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 10/11/2018 10:00 PM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 21:01:45 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/11/2018 8:45 PM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 15:40:55 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 14:11:23 -0400, John H.
wrote:


http://tinyurl.com/y7dezaq3

"The left is revving up attacks on capitalism just as workers on
the bottom rungs are beginning to
benefit from the booming U.S. economy. According to last week's
jobs report, unemployment has been
pushed back to its lowest level since 1969. Wages in blue-collar
industries, such as construction
and maintenance, are rising faster than for white-collar
workers. Pay for people without a college
education jumped almost 6 percent since last year -- triple the
overall wage gain."

Gosh, I thought wage growth was stagnant.

There was an article in USA Today yesterday talking about .how wages
are going up across the board and some jobs are really taking off

BTW your link took me to Harbor Fright generators.

About that, why is my 5.5 KW Briggs 11 hp and theirs is 8?
They must have stronger horses in China

===


In my experience the normal ratio of horsepower to KW is 2:1.
Anything
less should be considered suspect.


We shouldn't confuse horsepower and watts with horsepower and
generator
output in watts.

1 hp = 745.7 wattsÂ*Â* so 8 hp = 5965.6 watts.Â* That's simply the engine
power.

The generator output in watts will obviously be considerably lower.



===

Understood but 1 HP = 745.7 watts is the theoretical maximum.Â* In
reality you need considerably more horsepower to produse a KW because
of electrical and mechanical losses, and because the engine is usually
not being run at the RPM which produces peak power.



Agreed.Â* But again, I think the confusion is the conversion of hp to Kw
which is the engine only.Â* It doesn't consider what the engine is doing
with that Kw and the loses occurred in generating an output.

Good example is the current discussion about microwave ovens.
There's some confusion about the rating of the microwave's output
power versus the power required to produce that output.


I happen to have that info handy because I looked it up last week when
I had to replace a dead microwave oven. Here's how it is figured:

A 1200 watt output microwave takes 10. The typical formula for this
is.. P = VI.. I = P/V = 1200 /120 =10 A. Hence, one would think that
the answer is 10 A.. However, this formula applies only for DC
current. For AC current,. P=VI cos (theta). where theta is the phase
difference between V and I.. This phase difference is created by the
inductances inside the microwave oven. This phase difference is
probably mentioned on the specifications of the microwave.. Otherwise
another specification maybe mentioned called "MVA".. Power (measured
in MVA) = V * I. Using this , we can directly measure the I.. However,
in the absence of either of the two additional information, it is
impossible to fully find I.

The new micro, in the manual, states:

Rated power consumptionÂ* 1250 watts
Max Microwave outputÂ*Â*Â*Â* 1200 watts
FrequencyÂ*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* 2450 MHz
Rated CurrentÂ*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* 10.4 A

OF course, those are Chinese measurements.Â*Â*


Heh.Â* Again, those are the ratings of the microwave output power, mostly
the klystron that actually produces the microwave energy.Â* If taken as
the power required (you can forget about all the phase relationships
of voltage vs current and DC vs AC for this purpose) it would mean that
the microwave is 100% efficient in converting input power to output
power which is impossible.

It may vary somewhat from microwave to microwave and it's age but
a 1200 watt microwave draws considerably more current (power) to
run compared to it's rated output powers.Â* In the case of my relatively
new 1200 watt microwave, the measured current draw is slightly over 16
amperes.Â* Call it 16 amps.Â* 120v * 16 amperes = 1920 watts.

Even the smaller, 750 watt microwave draws about 11 amps to produce
it's rated output of 750 watts.Â* 120v * 11 amperes = 1320 watts.


I need to correct some readings. The current draw of 16 amps was when
I was running the 1200 watt microwave on the generator. I realized it
may have been a higher current reading due to shape factor of the
AC waveform generated by the generator andif there was any voltage droop
due to the generator being loaded close to it's max. So, I just
measured the current it draws when powered by commercial power.

Voltage is 121 vac. Current draw is 14 amps. So, it's using 121v * 14
amperes to produce 1200 watts of microwave power output or 1694 watts
"in" to produce 1200 watts "out".

Very reasonable and believable readings to me.