On Wed, 21 Feb 2018 21:26:46 -0500, Keyser Soze
wrote:


We'll see what sort of leadership Trump exerts on this issue.

Trump is going to knee jerk something. It is what he does.

On 2/21/2018 11:58 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 21 Feb 2018 21:26:46 -0500, Keyser Soze
wrote:


We'll see what sort of leadership Trump exerts on this issue.

Trump is going to knee jerk something. It is what he does.



I think it's possible that Trump may make gun law reform his legacy.
If he does and he's successful, he'll have one term only but will go
down in history as having had a successful presidency, to the dismay of
a lot of liberals and many conservatives.

I don't think Trump really thought he was going to win the election and
I don't think he really wants the job for more than four years. He's an
outsider and there's no question that the "establishment" politicians
resent having him in office. He's upsetting the traditional apple cart
of favors and corruption.

On 2/21/2018 11:57 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 21 Feb 2018 20:52:48 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:


John, I agree with you that the problem isn't really guns. All of them
can kill. The problem is more a mindset and fascination with military
type assault weapons. They are, by a wide margin, the weapon of choice
by these sick people.

It is just the most popular rifle sold in the US today, by a wide
margin. We still have more people killed with bare hands, feet fists
etc than all rifles combined so it is not really the major killer.



How many schools have had innocent children killed with bare hands or feet?

Adam Lanza fatally shot 20 *children* between six and seven years old,
as well as six adult staff members using a Bushmaster XM-15, an AR-15
style military type rifle.

Last week Cruz killed 17 people in less than 7 minutes using an AR-15,
military style weapon.

Here's a more complete list of mass shootings involving AR-15 type rifles:

Feb. 24, 1984:
Tyrone Mitchell, 28, used an AR-15, a Stoeger 12-gauge shotgun and a
Winchester 12-gauge shotgun to kill two and wound 12 at 49th Street
Elementary School in Los Angeles before killing himself.

Oct. 7, 2007:
Tyler Peterson, 20, used an AR-15 to kill six and injure one at an
apartment in Crandon, Wis., before killing himself.

June 20, 2012:
James Eagan Holmes, 24, used an AR-15-style .223-caliber Smith and
Wesson rifle with a 100-round magazine, a 12-gauge Remington shotgun and
two .40-caliber Glock semi-automatic pistols to kill 12 and injure 58 at
a movie theater in Aurora, Colo.

Dec. 14, 2012:
Adam Lanza, 20, used an AR-15-style rifle, a .223-caliber Bushmaster, to
kill 27 people — his mother, 20 students and six teachers — in Newtown,
Conn., before killing himself.

June 7, 2013:
John Zawahri, 23, used an AR-15-style .223-caliber rifle and a
..44-caliber Remington revolver to kill five and injure three at a home
in Santa Monica, Calif., before he was killed.

March 19, 2015:
Justin Fowler, 24, used an AR-15 to kill one and injure two on a street
in Little Water, N.M., before he was killed.

May 31, 2015:
Jeffrey Scott Pitts, 36, used an AR-15 and .45-caliber handgun to kill
two and injure two at a store in Conyers, Ga., before he was killed.

Oct. 31, 2015:
Noah Jacob Harpham, 33, used an AR-15, a .357-caliber revolver and a 9mm
semi-automatic pistol to kill three on a street in Colorado Springs,
Colo., before he was killed.

Dec. 2, 2015:
Syed Rizwyan Farook and Tashfeen Malik, 28 and 27, used two AR-15-style,
..223-caliber Remington rifles and two 9 mm handguns to kill 14 and
injure 21 at his workplace in San Bernardino, Calif., before they were
killed.

June 12, 2016:
Omar Mateen, 29, used an AR-15 style rifle (a Sig Sauer MCX), and a 9mm
Glock semi-automatic pistol to kill 49 people and injure 50 at an
Orlando nightclub before he was killed.

Oct. 1, 2017:
Stephen Paddock, 64, used a stockpile of guns including an AR-15 to kill
58 people and injure hundreds at a music festival in Las Vegas before he
killed himself.

Nov. 5, 2017:
Devin Kelley, 26, used an AR-15 style Ruger rifle to kill 26 people at a
church in Sutherland Springs, Texas, before he was killed.

Feb. 14, 2018:
Police say Nikolas Cruz, 19, used an AR-15-style rifle to kill at least
17 people at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, Fla.

On 2/21/2018 10:56 PM, wrote:

On Wed, 21 Feb 2018 20:44:47 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

I think this latest shooting is a tripping point and I think many state
legislators will start to do something. It will be slow but the
citizens demand it.

The weird thing is these killings represent about 0.9% of the gun
murders and 0.20% of gun deaths in the US but it is the only thing we
want to talk about. I suppose it is because these are white kids in
the suburbs and not black kids in the city.
I still say the only up side to keeping troubled kids away from guns
is they will be paying more attention in chemistry classes.



If gangs in cities want to blow each other's heads off ... go for it.

But when a nutcase goes into a school and kills 17 people,including
school kids in less than 7 minutes, or another nut case kills 20 people
including innocent 6 and 7 year olds, it's time to do something about it.

On 2/21/18 11:57 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 21 Feb 2018 20:52:48 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:


John, I agree with you that the problem isn't really guns. All of them
can kill. The problem is more a mindset and fascination with military
type assault weapons. They are, by a wide margin, the weapon of choice
by these sick people.

It is just the most popular rifle sold in the US today, by a wide
margin. We still have more people killed with bare hands, feet fists
etc than all rifles combined so it is not really the major killer.


My hunter friends have told me it that in .223/5.56, it is a "lousy
choice" for a hunting rifle, especially in wooded/brush country.

Keyser Soze
On 2/21/18 11:57 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 21 Feb 2018 20:52:48 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:



My hunter friends have told me it that in .223/5.56, it is a "lousy
choice" for a hunting rifle, especially in wooded/brush country.
......

Well, the Vietnamese nickname for the m-16. It was called “Black Death� for some odd reason. Then again maybe it wasn’t used in the jungles, no?

On Thu, 22 Feb 2018 07:25:20 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

Here's a weird one. In Massachusetts, one of the most liberal states, a
15 year old can legally purchase and own a long gun with his/her
parent's permission.

If the parents are OK with it, can't a kid have any gun they want at
any age? Who is going to stop them?
I had my first shotgun at 14-15 when I started to hunt but I had a .22
for years before that. I suppose technically it was my dad's, handed
down from my grandfather but I had free access to it and they sold
ammo at the 7-11.

On Thu, 22 Feb 2018 07:45:34 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

How many schools have had innocent children killed with bare hands or feet?

Again you are just talking about what makes the news. During that same
5 year period tens of thousands of black "kids" were killed with
handguns.
BTW do you really think that if there were no AR 15s, there would be
no more school shootings? It is just that this is the most popular
rifle sold here.
And what happened to all of those AK-47s that were going to kill us
all 20 years ago? Do you think they disappeared? There are around 4-5
million of them here, 2 million added to the inventory during the
phony "ban" ("loophole" guns with a thumbhole stock). The AR people
just had a better marketing campaign and it is actually a superior
firearm. Once people got over all the myths and nam stories and got
those AKs in their hands they figured out they were **** but they can
still get a lot of lead downrange very fast.

I also noticed Columbine was not on your list. Those boys used 9mms (a
Tec 9 and a "tactical" rifle like Harry's) and shotguns.

On Thu, 22 Feb 2018 09:11:18 -0500, Keyser Soze
wrote:

On 2/21/18 11:57 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 21 Feb 2018 20:52:48 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:


John, I agree with you that the problem isn't really guns. All of them
can kill. The problem is more a mindset and fascination with military
type assault weapons. They are, by a wide margin, the weapon of choice
by these sick people.

It is just the most popular rifle sold in the US today, by a wide
margin. We still have more people killed with bare hands, feet fists
etc than all rifles combined so it is not really the major killer.


My hunter friends have told me it that in .223/5.56, it is a "lousy
choice" for a hunting rifle, especially in wooded/brush country.

I tend to agree, particularly if you are talking about deer. In fact
most states won't let you use any .22 on a deer (actually thinking
about .22rf but it is how the law is written)
OTOH guys who shoot ground hogs seem to be OK with the .223.

On Thu, 22 Feb 2018 06:50:29 -0800 (PST), Tim
wrote:

Keyser Soze
On 2/21/18 11:57 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 21 Feb 2018 20:52:48 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:



My hunter friends have told me it that in .223/5.56, it is a "lousy
choice" for a hunting rifle, especially in wooded/brush country.
.....

Well, the Vietnamese nickname for the m-16. It was called “Black Death� for some odd reason. Then again maybe it wasn’t used in the jungles, no?

Most Vietnamese were not as big as a deer ;-)
We also fired something like 10,000 rounds for every one we killed.