On 11/5/2014 3:52 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 11/4/2014 11:11 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 04 Nov 2014 22:15:16 -0500, Wayne.B
wrote:

Harry recently described an incident where he ended up being injured
in the course of protecting someone else from violence. Momentarily
suspending any possible disbelief in the facts as stated, a number of
troubling questions are raised in my mind.

Could the situation have been better handled without resorting to
physical violence? Let's assume that Harry was armed with a legal
concealed carry hand gun. Could he have legally pulled the gun and
ordered the alleged perpatrator to cease and desist? In the Florida
concealed carry course that I attended we were taught to never pull
your weapon unless you intend to use it. Otherwise you could possibly
be charged with brandishing and threatening. You are also
specifically taught to never fire a warning shot, and to never try and
effect an arrest. A person who fired a warning shot in Florida is
still in jail for that crime even though he had been threatened and
had no priors.

Another possible strategy is to order the person to stop, relying on
your physical presence and force of personality to carry the day.
Harry apparently tried to do that and was assaulted in return. What
to do next? Assault them back and risk escalation and/or injury?
Invoke self defense and shoot? Both are problematic.

So what's a person to do in Harry's situation? Tough call I think.
For discussion purposes let's leave personalities and political
leanings out of this. And yes, I know that will be difficult.

A lawyer would tell you to call the cops.
I understand the instinct to just run over and sucker punch the guy
like Harry says he did but that is fraught with complications.
If you are lucky the guy lets you get away with it
He could turn around and have you arrested for assault and battery.
Abused spouses still tend to stand by their man and you could end up
with her testifying against you. ("We were just talking and this crazy
man attacked my husband")
Worst case, the other guy is an MMA fighter and he kicks your ass or
he just has a gun and pokes a hole in your chest claiming you attacked
him.

This is certainly a time when you should start with talking at a safe
enough distance so he can't sucker punch you.



First, according to Harry's account, he did *not* "run over and sucker
punch the guy". Harry said that when he saw the guy physically abusing
the woman and child, he ordered him to "stop". The guy took a swing at
Harry and missed. Harry returned fire, breaking his wrist in the process.

I think he did exactly the right thing under the circumstances. He
didn't attack the guy initially but had the right to swing back in
self-defense.



.... in this hypothetical case... lol. Really though, I doubt this is
anywhere near what really happened to harry krause....

On 11/5/14 11:57 AM, wrote:
On Wed, 05 Nov 2014 03:52:58 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 11/4/2014 11:11 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 04 Nov 2014 22:15:16 -0500, Wayne.B
wrote:

Harry recently described an incident where he ended up being injured
in the course of protecting someone else from violence. Momentarily
suspending any possible disbelief in the facts as stated, a number of
troubling questions are raised in my mind.

Could the situation have been better handled without resorting to
physical violence? Let's assume that Harry was armed with a legal
concealed carry hand gun. Could he have legally pulled the gun and
ordered the alleged perpatrator to cease and desist? In the Florida
concealed carry course that I attended we were taught to never pull
your weapon unless you intend to use it. Otherwise you could possibly
be charged with brandishing and threatening. You are also
specifically taught to never fire a warning shot, and to never try and
effect an arrest. A person who fired a warning shot in Florida is
still in jail for that crime even though he had been threatened and
had no priors.

Another possible strategy is to order the person to stop, relying on
your physical presence and force of personality to carry the day.
Harry apparently tried to do that and was assaulted in return. What
to do next? Assault them back and risk escalation and/or injury?
Invoke self defense and shoot? Both are problematic.

So what's a person to do in Harry's situation? Tough call I think.
For discussion purposes let's leave personalities and political
leanings out of this. And yes, I know that will be difficult.

A lawyer would tell you to call the cops.
I understand the instinct to just run over and sucker punch the guy
like Harry says he did but that is fraught with complications.
If you are lucky the guy lets you get away with it
He could turn around and have you arrested for assault and battery.
Abused spouses still tend to stand by their man and you could end up
with her testifying against you. ("We were just talking and this crazy
man attacked my husband")
Worst case, the other guy is an MMA fighter and he kicks your ass or
he just has a gun and pokes a hole in your chest claiming you attacked
him.

This is certainly a time when you should start with talking at a safe
enough distance so he can't sucker punch you.



First, according to Harry's account, he did *not* "run over and sucker
punch the guy". Harry said that when he saw the guy physically abusing
the woman and child, he ordered him to "stop". The guy took a swing at
Harry and missed. Harry returned fire, breaking his wrist in the process.

I think he did exactly the right thing under the circumstances. He
didn't attack the guy initially but had the right to swing back in
self-defense.


That is what Zimmerman said


Gee, Greg, I used to think you were one of the few bright right wingers
in this sea of conservative stupidity, but now I am realizing you are
just as dimwitted as flajim, psychoscotty, herring, and a few others in
that crowd of intellectually disableds.

--
“There’s more idleness and abuse of government favors among the
economically privileged than among the ranks of the disadvantaged.” -
Norman Mailer

On Wed, 05 Nov 2014 12:33:53 -0500, F*O*A*D wrote:

On 11/5/14 11:57 AM, wrote:
On Wed, 05 Nov 2014 03:52:58 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 11/4/2014 11:11 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 04 Nov 2014 22:15:16 -0500, Wayne.B
wrote:

Harry recently described an incident where he ended up being injured
in the course of protecting someone else from violence. Momentarily
suspending any possible disbelief in the facts as stated, a number of
troubling questions are raised in my mind.

Could the situation have been better handled without resorting to
physical violence? Let's assume that Harry was armed with a legal
concealed carry hand gun. Could he have legally pulled the gun and
ordered the alleged perpatrator to cease and desist? In the Florida
concealed carry course that I attended we were taught to never pull
your weapon unless you intend to use it. Otherwise you could possibly
be charged with brandishing and threatening. You are also
specifically taught to never fire a warning shot, and to never try and
effect an arrest. A person who fired a warning shot in Florida is
still in jail for that crime even though he had been threatened and
had no priors.

Another possible strategy is to order the person to stop, relying on
your physical presence and force of personality to carry the day.
Harry apparently tried to do that and was assaulted in return. What
to do next? Assault them back and risk escalation and/or injury?
Invoke self defense and shoot? Both are problematic.

So what's a person to do in Harry's situation? Tough call I think.
For discussion purposes let's leave personalities and political
leanings out of this. And yes, I know that will be difficult.

A lawyer would tell you to call the cops.
I understand the instinct to just run over and sucker punch the guy
like Harry says he did but that is fraught with complications.
If you are lucky the guy lets you get away with it
He could turn around and have you arrested for assault and battery.
Abused spouses still tend to stand by their man and you could end up
with her testifying against you. ("We were just talking and this crazy
man attacked my husband")
Worst case, the other guy is an MMA fighter and he kicks your ass or
he just has a gun and pokes a hole in your chest claiming you attacked
him.

This is certainly a time when you should start with talking at a safe
enough distance so he can't sucker punch you.



First, according to Harry's account, he did *not* "run over and sucker
punch the guy". Harry said that when he saw the guy physically abusing
the woman and child, he ordered him to "stop". The guy took a swing at
Harry and missed. Harry returned fire, breaking his wrist in the process.

I think he did exactly the right thing under the circumstances. He
didn't attack the guy initially but had the right to swing back in
self-defense.


That is what Zimmerman said


Gee, Greg, I used to think you were one of the few bright right wingers
in this sea of conservative stupidity, but now I am realizing you are
just as dimwitted as flajim, psychoscotty, herring, and a few others in
that crowd of intellectually disableds.

Bad day, huh Harry?

On Wednesday, November 5, 2014 2:19:07 PM UTC-5, John H. wrote:
On Wed, 05 Nov 2014 12:33:53 -0500, F*O*A*D wrote:

Gee, Greg, I used to think you were one of the few bright right wingers
in this sea of conservative stupidity, but now I am realizing you are
just as dimwitted as flajim, psychoscotty, herring, and a few others in
that crowd of intellectually disableds.

Bad day, huh Harry?

It's been a bad few days since he fell down the basement stairs.

wrote:
On Wednesday, November 5, 2014 2:19:07 PM UTC-5, John H. wrote:
On Wed, 05 Nov 2014 12:33:53 -0500, F*O*A*D wrote:

Gee, Greg, I used to think you were one of the few bright right wingers
in this sea of conservative stupidity, but now I am realizing you are
just as dimwitted as flajim, psychoscotty, herring, and a few others in
that crowd of intellectually disableds.

Bad day, huh Harry?

It's been a bad few days since he fell down the basement stairs.

Drunk and fat.

Poco Loco wrote:
On Wed, 05 Nov 2014 12:33:53 -0500, F*O*A*D wrote:

On 11/5/14 11:57 AM, wrote:
On Wed, 05 Nov 2014 03:52:58 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 11/4/2014 11:11 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 04 Nov 2014 22:15:16 -0500, Wayne.B
wrote:

Harry recently described an incident where he ended up being injured
in the course of protecting someone else from violence. Momentarily
suspending any possible disbelief in the facts as stated, a number of
troubling questions are raised in my mind.

Could the situation have been better handled without resorting to
physical violence? Let's assume that Harry was armed with a legal
concealed carry hand gun. Could he have legally pulled the gun and
ordered the alleged perpatrator to cease and desist? In the Florida
concealed carry course that I attended we were taught to never pull
your weapon unless you intend to use it. Otherwise you could possibly
be charged with brandishing and threatening. You are also
specifically taught to never fire a warning shot, and to never try and
effect an arrest. A person who fired a warning shot in Florida is
still in jail for that crime even though he had been threatened and
had no priors.

Another possible strategy is to order the person to stop, relying on
your physical presence and force of personality to carry the day.
Harry apparently tried to do that and was assaulted in return. What
to do next? Assault them back and risk escalation and/or injury?
Invoke self defense and shoot? Both are problematic.

So what's a person to do in Harry's situation? Tough call I think.
For discussion purposes let's leave personalities and political
leanings out of this. And yes, I know that will be difficult.

A lawyer would tell you to call the cops.
I understand the instinct to just run over and sucker punch the guy
like Harry says he did but that is fraught with complications.
If you are lucky the guy lets you get away with it
He could turn around and have you arrested for assault and battery.
Abused spouses still tend to stand by their man and you could end up
with her testifying against you. ("We were just talking and this crazy
man attacked my husband")
Worst case, the other guy is an MMA fighter and he kicks your ass or
he just has a gun and pokes a hole in your chest claiming you attacked
him.

This is certainly a time when you should start with talking at a safe
enough distance so he can't sucker punch you.



First, according to Harry's account, he did *not* "run over and sucker
punch the guy". Harry said that when he saw the guy physically abusing
the woman and child, he ordered him to "stop". The guy took a swing at
Harry and missed. Harry returned fire, breaking his wrist in the process.

I think he did exactly the right thing under the circumstances. He
didn't attack the guy initially but had the right to swing back in
self-defense.


That is what Zimmerman said


Gee, Greg, I used to think you were one of the few bright right wingers
in this sea of conservative stupidity, but now I am realizing you are
just as dimwitted as flajim, psychoscotty, herring, and a few others in
that crowd of intellectually disableds.

Bad day, huh Harry?

Not for me, dirtbag.
--
Posted from my iPhone

On 11/6/14 12:19 AM, wrote:
On Wed, 05 Nov 2014 12:33:53 -0500, F*O*A*D wrote:

On 11/5/14 11:57 AM, wrote:

That is what Zimmerman said


Gee, Greg, I used to think you were one of the few bright right wingers
in this sea of conservative stupidity, but now I am realizing you are
just as dimwitted as flajim, psychoscotty, herring, and a few others in
that crowd of intellectually disableds.

Are you really saying the only way you could deal with this was to get
in a fist fight?
How would you have dealt with it if this guy was not such an easy guy
to beat up?



I realize I don't have the frontline combat experience of you and some
of the other right-wingers here, so perhaps I should've waited for the
guy to really beat the crap out of that woman. I was not intending to
trade punches with the fellow. I simply walked over to where they were
and asked him to stop. He responded by taking a swing at me and he
missed. My reflexes took over and I hit him as hard as i could. End of
fight. I don't know whether he was easy to beat up or not... I landed a
Lucky punch.

Perhaps you would've stood your ground and shot him. You seem trigger-happy.


--
“There’s more idleness and abuse of government favors among the
economically privileged than among the ranks of the disadvantaged.” -
Norman Mailer

On 11/6/2014 6:53 AM, F*O*A*D wrote:
I landed a Lucky punch.

Remember that when you report for your MRI.

On 11/6/14 10:48 AM, wrote:
On Thu, 06 Nov 2014 06:53:33 -0500, F*O*A*D wrote:

On 11/6/14 12:19 AM, wrote:
On Wed, 05 Nov 2014 12:33:53 -0500, F*O*A*D wrote:

On 11/5/14 11:57 AM, wrote:

That is what Zimmerman said


Gee, Greg, I used to think you were one of the few bright right wingers
in this sea of conservative stupidity, but now I am realizing you are
just as dimwitted as flajim, psychoscotty, herring, and a few others in
that crowd of intellectually disableds.

Are you really saying the only way you could deal with this was to get
in a fist fight?
How would you have dealt with it if this guy was not such an easy guy
to beat up?



I realize I don't have the frontline combat experience of you and some
of the other right-wingers here, so perhaps I should've waited for the
guy to really beat the crap out of that woman. I was not intending to
trade punches with the fellow. I simply walked over to where they were
and asked him to stop. He responded by taking a swing at me and he
missed. My reflexes took over and I hit him as hard as i could. End of
fight. I don't know whether he was easy to beat up or not... I landed a
Lucky punch.


My point and the same thing I said about Zimmerman is you should have
never got close enough to him to allow him to take a swing at you. It
is basic self defense 101. If you were going to try to talk this guy
down, you can do it from 10 feet away, 20 is better.
If your intent was to get in a fight from the beginning, then you
should just go hit the guy. In the end you are not on much firmer
ground is you just provoked the fight

Perhaps you would've stood your ground and shot him. You seem trigger-happy.

All I ever said about this is you could have been shot, other than to
point out that if your "lucky punch" turned out to be fatal, you have
as good a chance of going to jail as if you shot him.

I know a guy who did 7 years in Maryland for a "lucky punch" in what
most people would say was a more justifiable situation (attempting to
remove an unwelcome person from his home)

I hope you get better soon.



Thanks. I had and have no concerns about being prosecuted for coming to
the aid of a woman and child being physically abused in a parking lot by
a bully. Nor am I interested in playing "what if" about it.

--
“There’s more idleness and abuse of government favors among the
economically privileged than among the ranks of the disadvantaged.” -
Norman Mailer

On Thu, 06 Nov 2014 11:01:59 -0500, F*O*A*D wrote:

On 11/6/14 10:48 AM, wrote:
On Thu, 06 Nov 2014 06:53:33 -0500, F*O*A*D wrote:

On 11/6/14 12:19 AM, wrote:
On Wed, 05 Nov 2014 12:33:53 -0500, F*O*A*D wrote:

On 11/5/14 11:57 AM, wrote:

That is what Zimmerman said


Gee, Greg, I used to think you were one of the few bright right wingers
in this sea of conservative stupidity, but now I am realizing you are
just as dimwitted as flajim, psychoscotty, herring, and a few others in
that crowd of intellectually disableds.

Are you really saying the only way you could deal with this was to get
in a fist fight?
How would you have dealt with it if this guy was not such an easy guy
to beat up?



I realize I don't have the frontline combat experience of you and some
of the other right-wingers here, so perhaps I should've waited for the
guy to really beat the crap out of that woman. I was not intending to
trade punches with the fellow. I simply walked over to where they were
and asked him to stop. He responded by taking a swing at me and he
missed. My reflexes took over and I hit him as hard as i could. End of
fight. I don't know whether he was easy to beat up or not... I landed a
Lucky punch.


My point and the same thing I said about Zimmerman is you should have
never got close enough to him to allow him to take a swing at you. It
is basic self defense 101. If you were going to try to talk this guy
down, you can do it from 10 feet away, 20 is better.
If your intent was to get in a fight from the beginning, then you
should just go hit the guy. In the end you are not on much firmer
ground is you just provoked the fight

Perhaps you would've stood your ground and shot him. You seem trigger-happy.

All I ever said about this is you could have been shot, other than to
point out that if your "lucky punch" turned out to be fatal, you have
as good a chance of going to jail as if you shot him.

I know a guy who did 7 years in Maryland for a "lucky punch" in what
most people would say was a more justifiable situation (attempting to
remove an unwelcome person from his home)

I hope you get better soon.



Thanks. I had and have no concerns about being prosecuted for coming to
the aid of a woman and child being physically abused in a parking lot by
a bully. Nor am I interested in playing "what if" about it.

Maybe you should have just kept the whole 'incident' to yourself?
There would be no 'what if's' then, would there. Of course, the old
narcissism would suffer immensely, eh?