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As the U.S. continues its slide into the abyss...
On Thu, 2 Oct 2014 12:03:28 -0500, Boating All Out
wrote: In article , says... On Thu, 02 Oct 2014 11:19:19 -0400, Poco Loco wrote: On Thu, 02 Oct 2014 10:49:42 -0400, wrote: You have to note that Germany also decides at a fairly early age who is not going to college. They get sent off the trades schools or just get taught how a mop works. Someone who is a "late bloomer" is going to be putting wheels on Volkswagens or sweeping up the shop. That is one reason why K-12 students apply themselves more than they do in the US. That's true in much of Europe, but here the liberals would be the first to whine about the loss of civil rights if we made 'free' college dependant upon achievement. My Dutch friend's grandson finished his big tests last spring for the university. He didn't do well enough. He gets one more chance, after a lot of summer school, which is not free. Oh no! Not the "T" word. The teachers union does not want us to actually test how well our students are learning. They also do not want to be paid based on performance, only time in grade and post graduate education (paid for by the school system). Guess they don't trust you to measure performance. Hardly surprising. Where did Greg say he would measure performance? Your response made absolutely no sense. Hardly surprising. |
As the U.S. continues its slide into the abyss...
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As the U.S. continues its slide into the abyss...
On 10/2/14 4:16 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 02 Oct 2014 14:55:25 -0400, F*O*A*D wrote: On 10/2/14 2:49 PM, wrote: Who said anything about ME measuring anything except the insanities brought by the unions. We were talking about 3d party testing of the students. At least you are consistent in your obvious *and* subtle arguments to turn workers into "at will" serfs, under the total domination of "corporations uber alles," and by corporations I mean employers. Does that jerky knee bother you in the car? I bet you have dents in the dash ;-) What does any of this have to do with "corporations". These are government schools. If you actually looked at what I said in the parts you clipped I said teachers should be paid for performance, not simply time in grade. I understand that goes against the union mentality but we can see the result. It is not a measure of the average of the class. Performance should be weighted by the improvement of each student. I also think we should be throwing more money at the teachers who have the toughest teachers as long as they are improving. A big problem is the ignorant thugs. If we single them out for additional discipline or even extra academic attention, you bump up against the fact that they may screw up the "diversity" numbers. Montgomery County had that problem I defined corporations as employers. You don't think many large school systems are operated just as ****-poorly as, say, Verizon or Comcast? Corporate mindset. How do you honestly pay teachers for "performance" when there are so many outside factors and pressures that bear, and most of these are beyond the control of the teachers. When we first moved here, I injured my leg and while I was waiting for the doc in the ER, there was a guy and his daughter in the next curtained booth. I don't know what the reason for their visit was, but the nurse asked the dad what his occupation was, and his response was, "Occupation, what does that mean?" "What you do for a living," the nurse said. Whoever taught that kid of his had to take into account the fact that her dad was...uneducated and ignorant. How would you suggest that the teacher deal with that student and overcome the home problems? And what if the teacher has 15 of those kids in a class of 35? |
As the U.S. continues its slide into the abyss...
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As the U.S. continues its slide into the abyss...
On 10/2/14 6:41 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 02 Oct 2014 16:36:16 -0400, F*O*A*D wrote: On 10/2/14 4:16 PM, wrote: On Thu, 02 Oct 2014 14:55:25 -0400, F*O*A*D wrote: On 10/2/14 2:49 PM, wrote: Who said anything about ME measuring anything except the insanities brought by the unions. We were talking about 3d party testing of the students. At least you are consistent in your obvious *and* subtle arguments to turn workers into "at will" serfs, under the total domination of "corporations uber alles," and by corporations I mean employers. Does that jerky knee bother you in the car? I bet you have dents in the dash ;-) What does any of this have to do with "corporations". These are government schools. If you actually looked at what I said in the parts you clipped I said teachers should be paid for performance, not simply time in grade. I understand that goes against the union mentality but we can see the result. It is not a measure of the average of the class. Performance should be weighted by the improvement of each student. I also think we should be throwing more money at the teachers who have the toughest teachers as long as they are improving. A big problem is the ignorant thugs. If we single them out for additional discipline or even extra academic attention, you bump up against the fact that they may screw up the "diversity" numbers. Montgomery County had that problem I defined corporations as employers. You don't think many large school systems are operated just as ****-poorly as, say, Verizon or Comcast? Corporate mindset. The difference is, if I think Comcast is incompetent and I do, I don't have to pay them. I have a satellite dish. We pay for the public schools whether they perform or not so there is far less incentive to improve. The teacher's union further impedes any effort they attempt. As I showed you before, our school board is 80% education community apparachiks anyway so there is not much actual management vs labor going on anyway. How do you honestly pay teachers for "performance" when there are so many outside factors and pressures that bear, and most of these are beyond the control of the teachers. When we first moved here, I injured my leg and while I was waiting for the doc in the ER, there was a guy and his daughter in the next curtained booth. I don't know what the reason for their visit was, but the nurse asked the dad what his occupation was, and his response was, "Occupation, what does that mean?" "What you do for a living," the nurse said. Whoever taught that kid of his had to take into account the fact that her dad was...uneducated and ignorant. How would you suggest that the teacher deal with that student and overcome the home problems? And what if the teacher has 15 of those kids in a class of 35? It would certainly make sense if they were free to try different things and reward the teachers who had success, Right now they simply do the same thing over and over again expecting a different result. Classroom teachers, for the most part, are not "free" to try "different things" that haven't been approved in advance by school administrators. This doesn't mean they don't know how...it just means there is not much variance allowed. |
As the U.S. continues its slide into the abyss...
KC wrote:
On 10/1/2014 10:07 PM, Wayne.B wrote: On Wed, 01 Oct 2014 09:45:41 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: People who struggled through school attending community colleges and then continue on to a four year degree are just as valuable (if not more) to most employers than the graduate of a prestigious Ivy League University. === People who graduate from a first rate (prestigious) school gain access to a vast network of peer acquaintances and referrals however. That can be priceless. It's called "pay to play".. it keeps the riff-raff on the outside. On the whole it's great for those who can afford it, but probably not so great for society in general as it keeps a lot of the creme from rising to the top... I worked and went to college. If you have the grades out of HS and the aptitude, go to Stanford. Family make less than $70k and you get full ride subsidized. |
As the U.S. continues its slide into the abyss...
On Thu, 02 Oct 2014 18:51:47 -0400, F*O*A*D wrote:
Classroom teachers, for the most part, are not "free" to try "different things" that haven't been approved in advance by school administrators. This doesn't mean they don't know how...it just means there is not much variance allowed. === What nonsense. Teachers have to teach the subject matter but their style, effectiveness and commitment vary enormously. |
As the U.S. continues its slide into the abyss...
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As the U.S. continues its slide into the abyss...
On 10/2/14 8:38 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 2 Oct 2014 17:21:35 -0500, Boating All Out wrote: In article , says... On Thu, 2 Oct 2014 15:16:54 -0500, Boating All Out wrote: In article , says... The teachers union does not want us to actually test how well our students are learning. They also do not want to be paid based on performance, only time in grade and post graduate education (paid for by the school system). Guess they don't trust you to measure performance. Hardly surprising. Who said anything about ME measuring anything except the insanities brought by the unions. We were talking about 3d party testing of the students. What's your solution? I'm sure nearly everybody with any experience in education will disagree with it. Nearly everybody "with experience in education" will say there is no problem with what we are doing. We spend more than just about every other country in the world and rank somewhere around #26 in results. It is clear we should all disagree with them. Why? I've seen numbers that say as a pct of GDP we rank about 50th in spending. what the hell does GDP have to do with it? And you can chalk those so-called "results" up to the student's and their parents stupidity. This is America. Teachers don't "teach," they can only guide the willing to learn. So I don't agree with you, and you're not clear at all. BTW, the "results" are just another ****ing test. You really like the tests, don't you? But only tests you agree with. How would you rank students? How well the teacher thinks (s)he is doing with no testing? The reality is, everything important in this country comes from the result of a test. Virtually all professions have a test and most trades do too.. You need to do well on a test to get into a decent college, there are lots of tests in the military and a lot of employers have tests. Until you propose changes that show positive results, it's clear that you're not an educator; you're just a nag. There are plenty of people who agree with me. The unions usually run them out of town, even when they have good results. Ever hear of Michelle Rhee and her experiences in DC. Ms. Rhee's results in DC were questionable. |
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