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jps August 19th 14 07:10 PM

What could possibly go wrong?
 

"That's right. After the Safe Carry Protection Act passed in Georgia,
many of us made the sarcastic remark, "What could possibly go wrong?'
Well, Saturday night something did. In the picturesque tourist town of
Helen in the North Georgia mountains, a woman died as the result of a
stray bullet which had already penetrated the shooter's hand as he
stood outside a bar across the street from her.

The German Alpine themed small town hosts many bars and is a popular
tourist destination. The streets can be crowded on weekends and during
the yearly Oktoberfest celebrations. Drinking is one popular pastime
and set the scene for Saturday's tragedy.

The shooter is a 53 year old man with a previous drunk driving
conviction in 1999. He was outside a bar when the shooting occurred.
He was found sitting on a bench with his injured hand. The woman his
bullet found lay on the sidewalk across the street, dead at the scene,
surrounded by family and friends, some of them children.

Many years ago our family visited the little town during their
Oktoberfest. We noticed students in various stages of intoxication
staggering into a fudge shop and joked, "What could possibly go
wrong?" as we imagined the nauseating mixture of fudge and way too
much beer. We never imagined the deadly new combination that would
result many years later.

The man has been charged with involuntary manslaughter."

Poco Loco August 19th 14 07:33 PM

What could possibly go wrong?
 
On Tue, 19 Aug 2014 11:10:29 -0700, jps wrote:

....same old ****.


F*O*A*D August 19th 14 08:03 PM

What could possibly go wrong?
 
On 8/19/14 2:33 PM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Tue, 19 Aug 2014 11:10:29 -0700, jps wrote:

...same old ****.



Indeed, you are. Why are you still here? You have no interest in boats.

Califbill August 19th 14 10:59 PM

What could possibly go wrong?
 
jps wrote:
"That's right. After the Safe Carry Protection Act passed in Georgia,
many of us made the sarcastic remark, "What could possibly go wrong?'
Well, Saturday night something did. In the picturesque tourist town of
Helen in the North Georgia mountains, a woman died as the result of a
stray bullet which had already penetrated the shooter's hand as he
stood outside a bar across the street from her.

The German Alpine themed small town hosts many bars and is a popular
tourist destination. The streets can be crowded on weekends and during
the yearly Oktoberfest celebrations. Drinking is one popular pastime
and set the scene for Saturday's tragedy.

The shooter is a 53 year old man with a previous drunk driving
conviction in 1999. He was outside a bar when the shooting occurred.
He was found sitting on a bench with his injured hand. The woman his
bullet found lay on the sidewalk across the street, dead at the scene,
surrounded by family and friends, some of them children.

Many years ago our family visited the little town during their
Oktoberfest. We noticed students in various stages of intoxication
staggering into a fudge shop and joked, "What could possibly go
wrong?" as we imagined the nauseating mixture of fudge and way too
much beer. We never imagined the deadly new combination that would
result many years later.

The man has been charged with involuntary manslaughter."


I have a friend who is a retired cop. He carefully lined up a shot on a
bad guy, shooting uphill, so he did not hit a car on the freeway. A mile
away, went through the sheet metal side of a metal building at the San
Mateo Fairgrounds and lodged in the neck of a lady. Luckily did not kill
her or paralyze her. **** happens. What about all those poor innocents
killed in drivebys? Caused by a failed war on drugs.

F*O*A*D August 19th 14 11:09 PM

What could possibly go wrong?
 
On 8/19/14 5:59 PM, Califbill wrote:


I have a friend who is a retired cop. He carefully lined up a shot on a
bad guy, shooting uphill, so he did not hit a car on the freeway. A mile
away, went through the sheet metal side of a metal building at the San
Mateo Fairgrounds and lodged in the neck of a lady. Luckily did not kill
her or paralyze her. **** happens.


Murder by cop seems to be increasing in frequency. And police forces are
loading up with military equipment. These are not good signs.


Mr. Luddite August 19th 14 11:37 PM

What could possibly go wrong?
 
On 8/19/2014 6:09 PM, F*O*A*D wrote:
On 8/19/14 5:59 PM, Califbill wrote:


I have a friend who is a retired cop. He carefully lined up a shot on a
bad guy, shooting uphill, so he did not hit a car on the freeway. A mile
away, went through the sheet metal side of a metal building at the San
Mateo Fairgrounds and lodged in the neck of a lady. Luckily did not kill
her or paralyze her. **** happens.


Murder by cop seems to be increasing in frequency. And police forces are
loading up with military equipment. These are not good signs.



Have to admit, I was LOL at Chris Hayes (MSNBC) last night when a
couple of rocks were thrown at him by some of the more violent
"protesters". Hayes is hyper by nature but you could tell that the
rocks being thrown at him while he stood safely about 20 feet from a
fence separating him from the protesters scared the crap out of him. He
was babbling so badly he couldn't finish a sentence.

Today MSNBC is reporting that Hayes was "pelted" with rocks. A bit of
an exaggeration, for sure. I recall two rocks being tossed in his
direction that caused him to almost **** in his pants.



Boating All Out August 20th 14 12:37 PM

What could possibly go wrong?th
 
In article ,
says...


I don't have a problem with this in a riot situation. The thing that
bothers me is the paramilitary sway teams responding to calls that
would have been better handled by a couple guys with cheap suits and a
crown vic.
Waco springs to mind ... or Elian Gonzelez


Are you kidding? Criminals can "legally" or illegally get military
weapons - including machine guns. They can also get any kind of body
armor. It's all on the market.
I want cops armed to the teeth.
After the North Hollywood bank shootout, no reason not to.
I don't know why you want cops outgunned by criminals.
Don't like cops?

KC August 20th 14 03:01 PM

What could possibly go wrong?
 
On 8/19/2014 6:37 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 8/19/2014 6:09 PM, F*O*A*D wrote:
On 8/19/14 5:59 PM, Califbill wrote:


I have a friend who is a retired cop. He carefully lined up a shot on a
bad guy, shooting uphill, so he did not hit a car on the freeway. A
mile
away, went through the sheet metal side of a metal building at the San
Mateo Fairgrounds and lodged in the neck of a lady. Luckily did not
kill
her or paralyze her. **** happens.


Murder by cop seems to be increasing in frequency. And police forces are
loading up with military equipment. These are not good signs.



Have to admit, I was LOL at Chris Hayes (MSNBC) last night when a
couple of rocks were thrown at him by some of the more violent
"protesters". Hayes is hyper by nature but you could tell that the
rocks being thrown at him while he stood safely about 20 feet from a
fence separating him from the protesters scared the crap out of him. He
was babbling so badly he couldn't finish a sentence.

Today MSNBC is reporting that Hayes was "pelted" with rocks. A bit of
an exaggeration, for sure. I recall two rocks being tossed in his
direction that caused him to almost **** in his pants.



In all seriousness, why do you watch MNNBC? Is it for the entertainment
like here? Or do you think you seriously get "news" there?

F*O*A*D August 20th 14 03:04 PM

What could possibly go wrong?
 
On 8/20/14 10:01 AM, KC wrote:
On 8/19/2014 6:37 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 8/19/2014 6:09 PM, F*O*A*D wrote:
On 8/19/14 5:59 PM, Califbill wrote:


I have a friend who is a retired cop. He carefully lined up a shot
on a
bad guy, shooting uphill, so he did not hit a car on the freeway. A
mile
away, went through the sheet metal side of a metal building at the San
Mateo Fairgrounds and lodged in the neck of a lady. Luckily did not
kill
her or paralyze her. **** happens.

Murder by cop seems to be increasing in frequency. And police forces are
loading up with military equipment. These are not good signs.



Have to admit, I was LOL at Chris Hayes (MSNBC) last night when a
couple of rocks were thrown at him by some of the more violent
"protesters". Hayes is hyper by nature but you could tell that the
rocks being thrown at him while he stood safely about 20 feet from a
fence separating him from the protesters scared the crap out of him. He
was babbling so badly he couldn't finish a sentence.

Today MSNBC is reporting that Hayes was "pelted" with rocks. A bit of
an exaggeration, for sure. I recall two rocks being tossed in his
direction that caused him to almost **** in his pants.



In all seriousness, why do you watch MNNBC? Is it for the entertainment
like here? Or do you think you seriously get "news" there?



Snotty prefers the Paranoid Schizophrenic News Network.

KC August 20th 14 03:07 PM

What could possibly go wrong?th
 
On 8/20/2014 7:37 AM, Boating All Out wrote:
In article ,
says...


I don't have a problem with this in a riot situation. The thing that
bothers me is the paramilitary sway teams responding to calls that
would have been better handled by a couple guys with cheap suits and a
crown vic.
Waco springs to mind ... or Elian Gonzelez


Are you kidding? Criminals can "legally" or illegally get military
weapons - including machine guns. They can also get any kind of body
armor. It's all on the market.
I want cops armed to the teeth.
After the North Hollywood bank shootout, no reason not to.
I don't know why you want cops outgunned by criminals.
Don't like cops?


The problem is they get all this cool equipment, then go find reasons to
use it...

F*O*A*D August 20th 14 03:32 PM

What could possibly go wrong?th
 
On 8/20/14 10:07 AM, KC wrote:
On 8/20/2014 7:37 AM, Boating All Out wrote:
In article ,
says...


I don't have a problem with this in a riot situation. The thing that
bothers me is the paramilitary sway teams responding to calls that
would have been better handled by a couple guys with cheap suits and a
crown vic.
Waco springs to mind ... or Elian Gonzelez


Are you kidding? Criminals can "legally" or illegally get military
weapons - including machine guns. They can also get any kind of body
armor. It's all on the market.
I want cops armed to the teeth.
After the North Hollywood bank shootout, no reason not to.
I don't know why you want cops outgunned by criminals.
Don't like cops?


The problem is they get all this cool equipment, then go find reasons to
use it...



Hoping your neighbors have good vid cams so when the SWAT team shows up
at your house, we get to watch it almost live.

Mr. Luddite August 20th 14 03:56 PM

What could possibly go wrong?
 
On 8/20/2014 10:01 AM, KC wrote:
On 8/19/2014 6:37 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 8/19/2014 6:09 PM, F*O*A*D wrote:
On 8/19/14 5:59 PM, Califbill wrote:


I have a friend who is a retired cop. He carefully lined up a shot
on a
bad guy, shooting uphill, so he did not hit a car on the freeway. A
mile
away, went through the sheet metal side of a metal building at the San
Mateo Fairgrounds and lodged in the neck of a lady. Luckily did not
kill
her or paralyze her. **** happens.

Murder by cop seems to be increasing in frequency. And police forces are
loading up with military equipment. These are not good signs.



Have to admit, I was LOL at Chris Hayes (MSNBC) last night when a
couple of rocks were thrown at him by some of the more violent
"protesters". Hayes is hyper by nature but you could tell that the
rocks being thrown at him while he stood safely about 20 feet from a
fence separating him from the protesters scared the crap out of him. He
was babbling so badly he couldn't finish a sentence.

Today MSNBC is reporting that Hayes was "pelted" with rocks. A bit of
an exaggeration, for sure. I recall two rocks being tossed in his
direction that caused him to almost **** in his pants.



In all seriousness, why do you watch MNNBC? Is it for the entertainment
like here? Or do you think you seriously get "news" there?



In all seriousness why the hell do you care what I watch? Or, more to
the point, what I watch is none of your business.

I watch a lot of news and political commentary including, sometimes, Fox
News.



H*a*r*r*o*l*d August 20th 14 03:58 PM

What could possibly go wrong?
 
On 8/20/2014 8:01 AM, KC wrote:
On 8/19/2014 6:37 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 8/19/2014 6:09 PM, F*O*A*D wrote:
On 8/19/14 5:59 PM, Califbill wrote:


I have a friend who is a retired cop. He carefully lined up a shot
on a
bad guy, shooting uphill, so he did not hit a car on the freeway. A
mile
away, went through the sheet metal side of a metal building at the San
Mateo Fairgrounds and lodged in the neck of a lady. Luckily did not
kill
her or paralyze her. **** happens.

Murder by cop seems to be increasing in frequency. And police forces are
loading up with military equipment. These are not good signs.



Have to admit, I was LOL at Chris Hayes (MSNBC) last night when a
couple of rocks were thrown at him by some of the more violent
"protesters". Hayes is hyper by nature but you could tell that the
rocks being thrown at him while he stood safely about 20 feet from a
fence separating him from the protesters scared the crap out of him. He
was babbling so badly he couldn't finish a sentence.

Today MSNBC is reporting that Hayes was "pelted" with rocks. A bit of
an exaggeration, for sure. I recall two rocks being tossed in his
direction that caused him to almost **** in his pants.



In all seriousness, why do you watch MNNBC? Is it for the entertainment
like here? Or do you think you seriously get "news" there?


You can't get to the truth unless you listen to all sides and figger out
who's lying.

--
"I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the
government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of
taking care of them".
Thomas Jefferson

H*a*r*r*o*l*d August 20th 14 04:06 PM

What could possibly go wrong?
 
On 8/20/2014 8:04 AM, F*O*A*D wrote:
On 8/20/14 10:01 AM, KC wrote:
On 8/19/2014 6:37 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 8/19/2014 6:09 PM, F*O*A*D wrote:
On 8/19/14 5:59 PM, Califbill wrote:


I have a friend who is a retired cop. He carefully lined up a shot
on a
bad guy, shooting uphill, so he did not hit a car on the freeway. A
mile
away, went through the sheet metal side of a metal building at the San
Mateo Fairgrounds and lodged in the neck of a lady. Luckily did not
kill
her or paralyze her. **** happens.

Murder by cop seems to be increasing in frequency. And police forces
are
loading up with military equipment. These are not good signs.



Have to admit, I was LOL at Chris Hayes (MSNBC) last night when a
couple of rocks were thrown at him by some of the more violent
"protesters". Hayes is hyper by nature but you could tell that the
rocks being thrown at him while he stood safely about 20 feet from a
fence separating him from the protesters scared the crap out of him. He
was babbling so badly he couldn't finish a sentence.

Today MSNBC is reporting that Hayes was "pelted" with rocks. A bit of
an exaggeration, for sure. I recall two rocks being tossed in his
direction that caused him to almost **** in his pants.



In all seriousness, why do you watch MNNBC? Is it for the entertainment
like here? Or do you think you seriously get "news" there?



Snotty prefers the Paranoid Schizophrenic News Network.

And yours is the Dumb-O-cratic thuggery and corruption, union sponsored
anti American network.

--
"I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the
government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of
taking care of them".
Thomas Jefferson

H*a*r*r*o*l*d August 20th 14 04:13 PM

What could possibly go wrong?th
 
On 8/20/2014 8:32 AM, F*O*A*D wrote:
On 8/20/14 10:07 AM, KC wrote:
On 8/20/2014 7:37 AM, Boating All Out wrote:
In article ,
says...


I don't have a problem with this in a riot situation. The thing that
bothers me is the paramilitary sway teams responding to calls that
would have been better handled by a couple guys with cheap suits and a
crown vic.
Waco springs to mind ... or Elian Gonzelez

Are you kidding? Criminals can "legally" or illegally get military
weapons - including machine guns. They can also get any kind of body
armor. It's all on the market.
I want cops armed to the teeth.
After the North Hollywood bank shootout, no reason not to.
I don't know why you want cops outgunned by criminals.
Don't like cops?


The problem is they get all this cool equipment, then go find reasons to
use it...



Hoping your neighbors have good vid cams so when the SWAT team shows up
at your house, we get to watch it almost live.


Do you lie awake at night, thinking up this sick ****? Get psychiatric
help soon, from a REAL doctor.

--
"I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the
government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of
taking care of them".
Thomas Jefferson

F*O*A*D August 20th 14 04:24 PM

What could possibly go wrong?
 
On 8/20/14 10:56 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 8/20/2014 10:01 AM, KC wrote:
On 8/19/2014 6:37 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 8/19/2014 6:09 PM, F*O*A*D wrote:
On 8/19/14 5:59 PM, Califbill wrote:


I have a friend who is a retired cop. He carefully lined up a shot
on a
bad guy, shooting uphill, so he did not hit a car on the freeway. A
mile
away, went through the sheet metal side of a metal building at the San
Mateo Fairgrounds and lodged in the neck of a lady. Luckily did not
kill
her or paralyze her. **** happens.

Murder by cop seems to be increasing in frequency. And police forces
are
loading up with military equipment. These are not good signs.



Have to admit, I was LOL at Chris Hayes (MSNBC) last night when a
couple of rocks were thrown at him by some of the more violent
"protesters". Hayes is hyper by nature but you could tell that the
rocks being thrown at him while he stood safely about 20 feet from a
fence separating him from the protesters scared the crap out of him. He
was babbling so badly he couldn't finish a sentence.

Today MSNBC is reporting that Hayes was "pelted" with rocks. A bit of
an exaggeration, for sure. I recall two rocks being tossed in his
direction that caused him to almost **** in his pants.



In all seriousness, why do you watch MNNBC? Is it for the entertainment
like here? Or do you think you seriously get "news" there?



In all seriousness why the hell do you care what I watch? Or, more to
the point, what I watch is none of your business.

I watch a lot of news and political commentary including, sometimes, Fox
News.



The last time I flipped through the channels in the "220-230" segment, I
landed on Fox for a moment and saw an old acquaintance, Steve Doocey.
Steve was one of the on-air clowns in the DC market in the 1970s, and he
would do just about anything for an on-air gag. He had a much higher
class competitor named Arch Campbell on another station. Arch was and is
very literate. Doocey was a douche. Anyway, back in those days, I
handled the advertising and PR for Ringling Brothers and Barnum & Bailey
Circus for two seasons, which was two seasons more than I could stand
working with the Feld family, who owns or owned the show. We got Doocey
to do a handful of funny segments, including shoveling elephant ****. He
was very good at it, which is probably why Fox hired him to do the same
thing, figuratively. He's still a douche. I also handled a Wild West
Rodeo, and my goal was to get Doocey to play a rodeo clown, but the
owners of that show thought it was too dangerous. Too bad. :)

KC August 20th 14 04:27 PM

What could possibly go wrong?
 
On 8/20/2014 10:56 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 8/20/2014 10:01 AM, KC wrote:
On 8/19/2014 6:37 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 8/19/2014 6:09 PM, F*O*A*D wrote:
On 8/19/14 5:59 PM, Califbill wrote:


I have a friend who is a retired cop. He carefully lined up a shot
on a
bad guy, shooting uphill, so he did not hit a car on the freeway. A
mile
away, went through the sheet metal side of a metal building at the San
Mateo Fairgrounds and lodged in the neck of a lady. Luckily did not
kill
her or paralyze her. **** happens.

Murder by cop seems to be increasing in frequency. And police forces
are
loading up with military equipment. These are not good signs.



Have to admit, I was LOL at Chris Hayes (MSNBC) last night when a
couple of rocks were thrown at him by some of the more violent
"protesters". Hayes is hyper by nature but you could tell that the
rocks being thrown at him while he stood safely about 20 feet from a
fence separating him from the protesters scared the crap out of him. He
was babbling so badly he couldn't finish a sentence.

Today MSNBC is reporting that Hayes was "pelted" with rocks. A bit of
an exaggeration, for sure. I recall two rocks being tossed in his
direction that caused him to almost **** in his pants.



In all seriousness, why do you watch MNNBC? Is it for the entertainment
like here? Or do you think you seriously get "news" there?



In all seriousness why the hell do you care what I watch? Or, more to
the point, what I watch is none of your business.

I watch a lot of news and political commentary including, sometimes, Fox
News.



It was a serious question, sorry about your penis dick....

KC August 20th 14 04:30 PM

What could possibly go wrong?
 
On 8/20/2014 10:58 AM, H*a*r*r*o*l*d wrote:
On 8/20/2014 8:01 AM, KC wrote:
On 8/19/2014 6:37 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 8/19/2014 6:09 PM, F*O*A*D wrote:
On 8/19/14 5:59 PM, Califbill wrote:


I have a friend who is a retired cop. He carefully lined up a shot
on a
bad guy, shooting uphill, so he did not hit a car on the freeway. A
mile
away, went through the sheet metal side of a metal building at the San
Mateo Fairgrounds and lodged in the neck of a lady. Luckily did not
kill
her or paralyze her. **** happens.

Murder by cop seems to be increasing in frequency. And police forces
are
loading up with military equipment. These are not good signs.



Have to admit, I was LOL at Chris Hayes (MSNBC) last night when a
couple of rocks were thrown at him by some of the more violent
"protesters". Hayes is hyper by nature but you could tell that the
rocks being thrown at him while he stood safely about 20 feet from a
fence separating him from the protesters scared the crap out of him. He
was babbling so badly he couldn't finish a sentence.

Today MSNBC is reporting that Hayes was "pelted" with rocks. A bit of
an exaggeration, for sure. I recall two rocks being tossed in his
direction that caused him to almost **** in his pants.



In all seriousness, why do you watch MNNBC? Is it for the entertainment
like here? Or do you think you seriously get "news" there?


You can't get to the truth unless you listen to all sides and figger out
who's lying.


....yes I know. I only asked because I see Dick quoting directly or
recanting a story he obviously saw on msnbc, but when he quotes Fox or
other, to me is sounds like he heard the soundbite on another channel...
like msnbc :0 Either way, I forgot he isn't here for conv, just to watch
and fight.. something about libs I guess.... either way, he doesn't want
to talk to me, soooooo I move on.



Mr. Luddite August 20th 14 04:36 PM

What could possibly go wrong?
 
On 8/20/2014 11:27 AM, KC wrote:
On 8/20/2014 10:56 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 8/20/2014 10:01 AM, KC wrote:
On 8/19/2014 6:37 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 8/19/2014 6:09 PM, F*O*A*D wrote:
On 8/19/14 5:59 PM, Califbill wrote:


I have a friend who is a retired cop. He carefully lined up a shot
on a
bad guy, shooting uphill, so he did not hit a car on the freeway. A
mile
away, went through the sheet metal side of a metal building at the
San
Mateo Fairgrounds and lodged in the neck of a lady. Luckily did not
kill
her or paralyze her. **** happens.

Murder by cop seems to be increasing in frequency. And police forces
are
loading up with military equipment. These are not good signs.



Have to admit, I was LOL at Chris Hayes (MSNBC) last night when a
couple of rocks were thrown at him by some of the more violent
"protesters". Hayes is hyper by nature but you could tell that the
rocks being thrown at him while he stood safely about 20 feet from a
fence separating him from the protesters scared the crap out of
him. He
was babbling so badly he couldn't finish a sentence.

Today MSNBC is reporting that Hayes was "pelted" with rocks. A bit of
an exaggeration, for sure. I recall two rocks being tossed in his
direction that caused him to almost **** in his pants.



In all seriousness, why do you watch MNNBC? Is it for the entertainment
like here? Or do you think you seriously get "news" there?



In all seriousness why the hell do you care what I watch? Or, more to
the point, what I watch is none of your business.

I watch a lot of news and political commentary including, sometimes, Fox
News.



It was a serious question, sorry about your penis dick....



You were given a serious response. I don't need a foul-mouthed,
paranoid, hot-headed little twerp advising me as to what to watch or not.



H*a*r*r*o*l*d August 20th 14 04:51 PM

What could possibly go wrong?
 
On 8/20/2014 9:24 AM, F*O*A*D wrote:

Anyway, back in those days, I
handled the advertising and PR for Ringling Brothers and Barnum & Bailey
Circus for two seasons, which was two seasons more than I could stand
working with the Feld family, who owns or owned the show. We got Doocey
to do a handful of funny segments, including shoveling elephant ****. He
was very good at it, which is probably why Fox hired him to do the same
thing, figuratively. He's still a douche. I also handled a Wild West
Rodeo, and my goal was to get Doocey to play a rodeo clown, but the
owners of that show thought it was too dangerous. Too bad. :)


You are so speshull. We are onored to have you in our presunce here on
rec.boats
--
"I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the
government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of
taking care of them".
Thomas Jefferson

H*a*r*r*o*l*d August 20th 14 04:53 PM

What could possibly go wrong?
 
On 8/20/2014 9:30 AM, KC wrote:
On 8/20/2014 10:58 AM, H*a*r*r*o*l*d wrote:
On 8/20/2014 8:01 AM, KC wrote:
On 8/19/2014 6:37 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 8/19/2014 6:09 PM, F*O*A*D wrote:
On 8/19/14 5:59 PM, Califbill wrote:


I have a friend who is a retired cop. He carefully lined up a shot
on a
bad guy, shooting uphill, so he did not hit a car on the freeway. A
mile
away, went through the sheet metal side of a metal building at the
San
Mateo Fairgrounds and lodged in the neck of a lady. Luckily did not
kill
her or paralyze her. **** happens.

Murder by cop seems to be increasing in frequency. And police forces
are
loading up with military equipment. These are not good signs.



Have to admit, I was LOL at Chris Hayes (MSNBC) last night when a
couple of rocks were thrown at him by some of the more violent
"protesters". Hayes is hyper by nature but you could tell that the
rocks being thrown at him while he stood safely about 20 feet from a
fence separating him from the protesters scared the crap out of
him. He
was babbling so badly he couldn't finish a sentence.

Today MSNBC is reporting that Hayes was "pelted" with rocks. A bit of
an exaggeration, for sure. I recall two rocks being tossed in his
direction that caused him to almost **** in his pants.



In all seriousness, why do you watch MNNBC? Is it for the entertainment
like here? Or do you think you seriously get "news" there?


You can't get to the truth unless you listen to all sides and figger out
who's lying.


...yes I know. I only asked because I see Dick quoting directly or
recanting a story he obviously saw on msnbc, but when he quotes Fox or
other, to me is sounds like he heard the soundbite on another channel...
like msnbc :0 Either way, I forgot he isn't here for conv, just to watch
and fight.. something about libs I guess.... either way, he doesn't want
to talk to me, soooooo I move on.


You don't know dick or Dick. ;-)

--
"I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the
government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of
taking care of them".
Thomas Jefferson

Mr. Luddite August 20th 14 05:15 PM

What could possibly go wrong?
 
On 8/20/2014 11:53 AM, H*a*r*r*o*l*d wrote:
On 8/20/2014 9:30 AM, KC wrote:
On 8/20/2014 10:58 AM, H*a*r*r*o*l*d wrote:
On 8/20/2014 8:01 AM, KC wrote:
On 8/19/2014 6:37 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 8/19/2014 6:09 PM, F*O*A*D wrote:
On 8/19/14 5:59 PM, Califbill wrote:


I have a friend who is a retired cop. He carefully lined up a shot
on a
bad guy, shooting uphill, so he did not hit a car on the freeway. A
mile
away, went through the sheet metal side of a metal building at the
San
Mateo Fairgrounds and lodged in the neck of a lady. Luckily did not
kill
her or paralyze her. **** happens.

Murder by cop seems to be increasing in frequency. And police forces
are
loading up with military equipment. These are not good signs.



Have to admit, I was LOL at Chris Hayes (MSNBC) last night when a
couple of rocks were thrown at him by some of the more violent
"protesters". Hayes is hyper by nature but you could tell that the
rocks being thrown at him while he stood safely about 20 feet from a
fence separating him from the protesters scared the crap out of
him. He
was babbling so badly he couldn't finish a sentence.

Today MSNBC is reporting that Hayes was "pelted" with rocks. A bit of
an exaggeration, for sure. I recall two rocks being tossed in his
direction that caused him to almost **** in his pants.



In all seriousness, why do you watch MNNBC? Is it for the entertainment
like here? Or do you think you seriously get "news" there?

You can't get to the truth unless you listen to all sides and figger out
who's lying.


...yes I know. I only asked because I see Dick quoting directly or
recanting a story he obviously saw on msnbc, but when he quotes Fox or
other, to me is sounds like he heard the soundbite on another channel...
like msnbc :0 Either way, I forgot he isn't here for conv, just to watch
and fight.. something about libs I guess.... either way, he doesn't want
to talk to me, soooooo I move on.


You don't know dick or Dick. ;-)


Thankfully.



F*O*A*D August 20th 14 05:34 PM

What could possibly go wrong?
 
On 8/20/14 12:15 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 20 Aug 2014 11:24:03 -0400, F*O*A*D wrote:


The last time I flipped through the channels in the "220-230" segment, I
landed on Fox for a moment


I watch the show with Perino and Beckel (along with 3 other fox folks)
occasionally.
The two of them actually have reasonable debates now and then and both
have lived in the belly of the beast.
The other 3 could STFU and the show would be better.


The few times I have actually watched Fox for a few minutes made me gag.
The spreading of fear, paranoia and outright bull**** never seems to
end. It's like being walled up in a basement with Snotty Ingerfool and a
cask of Amontillado, except without the wine.

KC August 20th 14 05:50 PM

What could possibly go wrong?
 
On 8/20/2014 11:36 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 8/20/2014 11:27 AM, KC wrote:
On 8/20/2014 10:56 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 8/20/2014 10:01 AM, KC wrote:
On 8/19/2014 6:37 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 8/19/2014 6:09 PM, F*O*A*D wrote:
On 8/19/14 5:59 PM, Califbill wrote:


I have a friend who is a retired cop. He carefully lined up a shot
on a
bad guy, shooting uphill, so he did not hit a car on the freeway. A
mile
away, went through the sheet metal side of a metal building at the
San
Mateo Fairgrounds and lodged in the neck of a lady. Luckily did not
kill
her or paralyze her. **** happens.

Murder by cop seems to be increasing in frequency. And police forces
are
loading up with military equipment. These are not good signs.



Have to admit, I was LOL at Chris Hayes (MSNBC) last night when a
couple of rocks were thrown at him by some of the more violent
"protesters". Hayes is hyper by nature but you could tell that the
rocks being thrown at him while he stood safely about 20 feet from a
fence separating him from the protesters scared the crap out of
him. He
was babbling so badly he couldn't finish a sentence.

Today MSNBC is reporting that Hayes was "pelted" with rocks. A bit of
an exaggeration, for sure. I recall two rocks being tossed in his
direction that caused him to almost **** in his pants.



In all seriousness, why do you watch MNNBC? Is it for the entertainment
like here? Or do you think you seriously get "news" there?


In all seriousness why the hell do you care what I watch? Or, more to
the point, what I watch is none of your business.

I watch a lot of news and political commentary including, sometimes, Fox
News.



It was a serious question, sorry about your penis dick....



You were given a serious response. I don't need a foul-mouthed,
paranoid, hot-headed little twerp advising me as to what to watch or not.



I didn't advise anything, I asked a question... and as to the
"hot-headed little twerp", look who is getting all fired up over a
question, and calling names from under a desk like a coward. You really
don't surprise me as much as you think, you are not as opaque as you
think you are.

KC August 20th 14 05:51 PM

What could possibly go wrong?
 
On 8/20/2014 11:53 AM, H*a*r*r*o*l*d wrote:
On 8/20/2014 9:30 AM, KC wrote:
On 8/20/2014 10:58 AM, H*a*r*r*o*l*d wrote:
On 8/20/2014 8:01 AM, KC wrote:
On 8/19/2014 6:37 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 8/19/2014 6:09 PM, F*O*A*D wrote:
On 8/19/14 5:59 PM, Califbill wrote:


I have a friend who is a retired cop. He carefully lined up a shot
on a
bad guy, shooting uphill, so he did not hit a car on the freeway. A
mile
away, went through the sheet metal side of a metal building at the
San
Mateo Fairgrounds and lodged in the neck of a lady. Luckily did not
kill
her or paralyze her. **** happens.

Murder by cop seems to be increasing in frequency. And police forces
are
loading up with military equipment. These are not good signs.



Have to admit, I was LOL at Chris Hayes (MSNBC) last night when a
couple of rocks were thrown at him by some of the more violent
"protesters". Hayes is hyper by nature but you could tell that the
rocks being thrown at him while he stood safely about 20 feet from a
fence separating him from the protesters scared the crap out of
him. He
was babbling so badly he couldn't finish a sentence.

Today MSNBC is reporting that Hayes was "pelted" with rocks. A bit of
an exaggeration, for sure. I recall two rocks being tossed in his
direction that caused him to almost **** in his pants.



In all seriousness, why do you watch MNNBC? Is it for the entertainment
like here? Or do you think you seriously get "news" there?

You can't get to the truth unless you listen to all sides and figger out
who's lying.


...yes I know. I only asked because I see Dick quoting directly or
recanting a story he obviously saw on msnbc, but when he quotes Fox or
other, to me is sounds like he heard the soundbite on another channel...
like msnbc :0 Either way, I forgot he isn't here for conv, just to watch
and fight.. something about libs I guess.... either way, he doesn't want
to talk to me, soooooo I move on.


You don't know dick or Dick. ;-)


Just asked a question, in a group. Didn't know I had to "know" anybody
to do that. If he isn't here to share, fine.. no problem...

H*a*r*r*o*l*d August 20th 14 06:08 PM

What could possibly go wrong?
 
On 8/20/2014 10:34 AM, F*O*A*D wrote:
On 8/20/14 12:15 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 20 Aug 2014 11:24:03 -0400, F*O*A*D wrote:


The last time I flipped through the channels in the "220-230" segment, I
landed on Fox for a moment


I watch the show with Perino and Beckel (along with 3 other fox folks)
occasionally.
The two of them actually have reasonable debates now and then and both
have lived in the belly of the beast.
The other 3 could STFU and the show would be better.


The few times I have actually watched Fox for a few minutes made me gag.
The spreading of fear, paranoia and outright bull**** never seems to
end. It's like being walled up in a basement with Snotty Ingerfool and a
cask of Amontillado, except without the wine.


So long as you keep producing it, it will be spread. Bull****, that is.
--
"I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the
government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of
taking care of them".
Thomas Jefferson

Boating All Out August 20th 14 06:25 PM

What could possibly go wrong?th
 
In article ,
says...

On Wed, 20 Aug 2014 06:37:28 -0500, Boating All Out
wrote:

I don't have a problem with this in a riot situation. The thing that
bothers me is the paramilitary sway teams responding to calls that
would have been better handled by a couple guys with cheap suits and a
crown vic.
Waco springs to mind ... or Elian Gonzelez


Are you kidding? Criminals can "legally" or illegally get military
weapons - including machine guns. They can also get any kind of body
armor. It's all on the market.


You are half right. They can get guns "illegally" I guess you think
another law would stop that.

I want cops armed to the teeth.
After the North Hollywood bank shootout, no reason not to.
I don't know why you want cops outgunned by criminals.
Don't like cops?


I like cops, I just don't like cops with machine guns.



What cops have machine guns? SWAT might have an MP5/M16/M4.
Big deal.

Would North Hollywood have been any better if the cops were spraying
the street with automatic weapons fire too?


SWAT teams don't do that.

Giving the cops more bullets in their gun only assures more innocent
bystanders are shot.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/08/25...olice-gunfire/


They did well, those cops. Lots of people around. And they didn't have
auto weapons.

A sniper on the roof with a deer rifle would have been much more
effective. If I was going to do one thing with the police, it would be
more actual combat marksmanship training, not bigger guns.
My old IBM buddy was a deputy in Charlotte County
Every year they have a little competition, hit 5 bowling pins at 7
yards, shoot till they all fall. They have patrol officers who have to
reload their double stack Sigs before they finally hit them all.


Most cops never fire their gun in the line of duty.

The winner was usually one old detective who carried a 5 shot Chief
(2" .38 revolver). Five shots, 5 hits.



Anecdote.
I think this "cop militarization" is just overblown lib talk.
Most of what people are seeing is vehicles and armor.
Chicago cops handled the Grant Park yippies with nightsticks.
You better have more than a nightstick now.

[email protected] August 20th 14 08:22 PM

What could possibly go wrong?
 
On Wednesday, August 20, 2014 11:36:25 AM UTC-4, Mr. Luddite wrote:

You were given a serious response. I don't need a foul-mouthed,

paranoid, hot-headed little twerp advising me as to what to watch or not.



I'm sure he's real scared of a zero like you.

Wayne.B August 20th 14 08:24 PM

What could possibly go wrong?th
 
On Wed, 20 Aug 2014 09:13:29 -0600, H*a*r*r*o*l*d
wrote:

Hoping your neighbors have good vid cams so when the SWAT team shows up
at your house, we get to watch it almost live.


Do you lie awake at night, thinking up this sick ****? Get psychiatric
help soon, from a REAL doctor.


===

Harry has found that once the IRS has a lien on most of his
possessions there is time for a lot of creative thinking.

KC August 20th 14 08:31 PM

What could possibly go wrong?
 
On 8/20/2014 3:22 PM, wrote:
On Wednesday, August 20, 2014 11:36:25 AM UTC-4, Mr. Luddite wrote:

You were given a serious response. I don't need a foul-mouthed,

paranoid, hot-headed little twerp advising me as to what to watch or not.



I'm sure he's real scared of a zero like you.


Only cause he carries guns, and I am positive he has the same kind of
daydreams of being a hero, harry does...

KC August 20th 14 08:34 PM

What could possibly go wrong?
 
On 8/20/2014 3:31 PM, KC wrote:
On 8/20/2014 3:22 PM, wrote:
On Wednesday, August 20, 2014 11:36:25 AM UTC-4, Mr. Luddite wrote:

You were given a serious response. I don't need a foul-mouthed,

paranoid, hot-headed little twerp advising me as to what to watch or
not.



I'm sure he's real scared of a zero like you.


Only cause he carries guns, and I am positive he has the same kind of
daydreams of being a hero, harry does...


Two kind of gun owners in my opinion.. Folks like Greg who would carry
or keep for protection, and folks like harry, don, or Dick, that
want/need folks to know they carry for protection... even if they do it
under the pretense of concealed carry :)

Mr. Luddite August 20th 14 09:10 PM

What could possibly go wrong?
 
On 8/20/2014 3:34 PM, KC wrote:
On 8/20/2014 3:31 PM, KC wrote:
On 8/20/2014 3:22 PM, wrote:
On Wednesday, August 20, 2014 11:36:25 AM UTC-4, Mr. Luddite wrote:

You were given a serious response. I don't need a foul-mouthed,

paranoid, hot-headed little twerp advising me as to what to watch or
not.


I'm sure he's real scared of a zero like you.


Only cause he carries guns, and I am positive he has the same kind of
daydreams of being a hero, harry does...


Two kind of gun owners in my opinion.. Folks like Greg who would carry
or keep for protection, and folks like harry, don, or Dick, that
want/need folks to know they carry for protection... even if they do it
under the pretense of concealed carry :)



Harry's right. You *are* an amusing little troll. You don't like what
I watch on TV and now I am a regular Wyatt Earp.

I can imagine your brain scan. Nothing but a bunch of shorted circuits
and blown fuses.

True North[_2_] August 20th 14 09:25 PM

What could possibly go wrong?
 

" Harry's right. *You *are* an amusing little troll. *You don't like what
I watch on TV and now I am a regular Wyatt Earp.

I can imagine your brain scan. *Nothing but a bunch of shorted circuits
and blown fuses. "


The MinnieMan is quite amusing.
I have a 20ga shotgun and a semi-auto 22 cal rifle that haven't been used in about 30 years.
Both are gathering dust in a closet and are protected by trigger guards.
For protection against the unlikely event of either him or Dickson showing up to do me harm, I have Mr Estwing Hatchet.
It would be a lot closer and more personal that way.

F*O*A*D August 20th 14 09:27 PM

What could possibly go wrong?
 
On 8/20/14 4:10 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 8/20/2014 3:34 PM, KC wrote:
On 8/20/2014 3:31 PM, KC wrote:
On 8/20/2014 3:22 PM, wrote:
On Wednesday, August 20, 2014 11:36:25 AM UTC-4, Mr. Luddite wrote:

You were given a serious response. I don't need a foul-mouthed,

paranoid, hot-headed little twerp advising me as to what to watch or
not.


I'm sure he's real scared of a zero like you.


Only cause he carries guns, and I am positive he has the same kind of
daydreams of being a hero, harry does...


Two kind of gun owners in my opinion.. Folks like Greg who would carry
or keep for protection, and folks like harry, don, or Dick, that
want/need folks to know they carry for protection... even if they do it
under the pretense of concealed carry :)



Harry's right. You *are* an amusing little troll. You don't like what
I watch on TV and now I am a regular Wyatt Earp.

I can imagine your brain scan. Nothing but a bunch of shorted circuits
and blown fuses.


After my wife got her master's, she spent about a year treating people
like Snotty at a state forensic psychiatric hospital in Florida. Most of
them, sadly, were a lot less amusing than our boy here.

What Snotty doesn't know, of course, is *who* carries concealed because,
well, the firearm, if it is being carried, is *concealed.*

He probably thinks, "Is that a bulge in your pocket, or are you just
glad to see me?"

F*O*A*D August 20th 14 09:28 PM

What could possibly go wrong?
 
On 8/20/14 3:32 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 20 Aug 2014 12:34:34 -0400, F*O*A*D wrote:

The few times I have actually watched Fox for a few minutes made me gag.
The spreading of fear, paranoia and outright bull**** never seems to
end.

MSNBC is the same way. CNN is too hung up on live shots of nothing and
searches for things they are not going to find any time soon

I am glad I have PBS and the History Channel (actually the difatives
since the real history channel is choked with reality shows about
people I don't give a **** about)


I mostly watch nature shows in the evenings when I watch TV. I like
shows about critters.

F*O*A*D August 20th 14 09:28 PM

What could possibly go wrong?th
 
On 8/20/14 3:36 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 20 Aug 2014 12:25:02 -0500, Boating All Out
wrote:

In article ,
says...

On Wed, 20 Aug 2014 06:37:28 -0500, Boating All Out
wrote:

I don't have a problem with this in a riot situation. The thing that
bothers me is the paramilitary sway teams responding to calls that
would have been better handled by a couple guys with cheap suits and a
crown vic.
Waco springs to mind ... or Elian Gonzelez

Are you kidding? Criminals can "legally" or illegally get military
weapons - including machine guns. They can also get any kind of body
armor. It's all on the market.

You are half right. They can get guns "illegally" I guess you think
another law would stop that.

I want cops armed to the teeth.
After the North Hollywood bank shootout, no reason not to.
I don't know why you want cops outgunned by criminals.
Don't like cops?

I like cops, I just don't like cops with machine guns.



What cops have machine guns? SWAT might have an MP5/M16/M4.
Big deal.


None of which would have done much against the kind of body armor the
bad guys had


Would North Hollywood have been any better if the cops were spraying
the street with automatic weapons fire too?


SWAT teams don't do that.

Why do they need a machine gun then


Giving the cops more bullets in their gun only assures more innocent
bystanders are shot.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/08/25...olice-gunfire/


They did well, those cops. Lots of people around. And they didn't have
auto weapons.

9 innocent bystanders is OK with you?

A sniper on the roof with a deer rifle would have been much more
effective. If I was going to do one thing with the police, it would be
more actual combat marksmanship training, not bigger guns.
My old IBM buddy was a deputy in Charlotte County
Every year they have a little competition, hit 5 bowling pins at 7
yards, shoot till they all fall. They have patrol officers who have to
reload their double stack Sigs before they finally hit them all.


Most cops never fire their gun in the line of duty.


... and when they do, I want them to hit the real bad guy, nobody else

The winner was usually one old detective who carried a 5 shot Chief
(2" .38 revolver). Five shots, 5 hits.



Anecdote.
I think this "cop militarization" is just overblown lib talk.
Most of what people are seeing is vehicles and armor.
Chicago cops handled the Grant Park yippies with nightsticks.
You better have more than a nightstick now.


Tanks???


Nukes.

Mr. Luddite August 20th 14 09:34 PM

What could possibly go wrong?
 
On 8/20/2014 4:27 PM, F*O*A*D wrote:
On 8/20/14 4:10 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 8/20/2014 3:34 PM, KC wrote:
On 8/20/2014 3:31 PM, KC wrote:
On 8/20/2014 3:22 PM, wrote:
On Wednesday, August 20, 2014 11:36:25 AM UTC-4, Mr. Luddite wrote:

You were given a serious response. I don't need a foul-mouthed,

paranoid, hot-headed little twerp advising me as to what to watch or
not.


I'm sure he's real scared of a zero like you.


Only cause he carries guns, and I am positive he has the same kind of
daydreams of being a hero, harry does...

Two kind of gun owners in my opinion.. Folks like Greg who would carry
or keep for protection, and folks like harry, don, or Dick, that
want/need folks to know they carry for protection... even if they do it
under the pretense of concealed carry :)



Harry's right. You *are* an amusing little troll. You don't like what
I watch on TV and now I am a regular Wyatt Earp.

I can imagine your brain scan. Nothing but a bunch of shorted circuits
and blown fuses.


After my wife got her master's, she spent about a year treating people
like Snotty at a state forensic psychiatric hospital in Florida. Most of
them, sadly, were a lot less amusing than our boy here.

What Snotty doesn't know, of course, is *who* carries concealed because,
well, the firearm, if it is being carried, is *concealed.*

He probably thinks, "Is that a bulge in your pocket, or are you just
glad to see me?"



He needs to participate in the ALS Ice Bucket Challenge. He's overheating.



F*O*A*D August 20th 14 09:35 PM

What could possibly go wrong?
 
On 8/20/14 4:25 PM, True North wrote:

" Harry's right. You *are* an amusing little troll. You don't like what
I watch on TV and now I am a regular Wyatt Earp.

I can imagine your brain scan. Nothing but a bunch of shorted circuits
and blown fuses. "


The MinnieMan is quite amusing.
I have a 20ga shotgun and a semi-auto 22 cal rifle that haven't been used in about 30 years.
Both are gathering dust in a closet and are protected by trigger guards.
For protection against the unlikely event of either him or Dickson showing up to do me harm, I have Mr Estwing Hatchet.
It would be a lot closer and more personal that way.


"You can't chop your father up in Massachusetts..." :)

F*O*A*D August 20th 14 09:36 PM

What could possibly go wrong?
 
On 8/20/14 4:34 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 8/20/2014 4:27 PM, F*O*A*D wrote:
On 8/20/14 4:10 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 8/20/2014 3:34 PM, KC wrote:
On 8/20/2014 3:31 PM, KC wrote:
On 8/20/2014 3:22 PM, wrote:
On Wednesday, August 20, 2014 11:36:25 AM UTC-4, Mr. Luddite wrote:

You were given a serious response. I don't need a foul-mouthed,

paranoid, hot-headed little twerp advising me as to what to watch or
not.


I'm sure he's real scared of a zero like you.


Only cause he carries guns, and I am positive he has the same kind of
daydreams of being a hero, harry does...

Two kind of gun owners in my opinion.. Folks like Greg who would carry
or keep for protection, and folks like harry, don, or Dick, that
want/need folks to know they carry for protection... even if they do it
under the pretense of concealed carry :)


Harry's right. You *are* an amusing little troll. You don't like what
I watch on TV and now I am a regular Wyatt Earp.

I can imagine your brain scan. Nothing but a bunch of shorted circuits
and blown fuses.


After my wife got her master's, she spent about a year treating people
like Snotty at a state forensic psychiatric hospital in Florida. Most of
them, sadly, were a lot less amusing than our boy here.

What Snotty doesn't know, of course, is *who* carries concealed because,
well, the firearm, if it is being carried, is *concealed.*

He probably thinks, "Is that a bulge in your pocket, or are you just
glad to see me?"



He needs to participate in the ALS Ice Bucket Challenge. He's
overheating.



Saw a clip of Dubya doing that with the help of Mrs. Dubya. Liked it and
him for doing it. :)

Poco Loco August 20th 14 09:41 PM

What could possibly go wrong?
 
On Wed, 20 Aug 2014 09:51:22 -0600, H*a*r*r*o*l*d wrote:

On 8/20/2014 9:24 AM, F*O*A*D wrote:

Anyway, back in those days, I
handled the advertising and PR for Ringling Brothers and Barnum & Bailey
Circus for two seasons, which was two seasons more than I could stand
working with the Feld family, who owns or owned the show. We got Doocey
to do a handful of funny segments, including shoveling elephant ****. He
was very good at it, which is probably why Fox hired him to do the same
thing, figuratively. He's still a douche. I also handled a Wild West
Rodeo, and my goal was to get Doocey to play a rodeo clown, but the
owners of that show thought it was too dangerous. Too bad. :)


You are so speshull. We are onored to have you in our presunce here on
rec.boats


Very.



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