BoatBanter.com - countersteering...

On 2/13/2014 8:37 PM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 19:50:47 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 2/13/2014 7:33 PM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 19:05:45 -0500, KC wrote:

On 2/13/2014 6:11 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/13/2014 5:07 PM, KC wrote:
On 2/13/2014 5:02 PM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 16:37:10 -0500, KC wrote:

On 2/13/2014 4:04 PM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 15:29:25 -0500, KC wrote:

On 2/13/2014 12:16 PM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 10:20:32 -0500, KC
wrote:

On 2/13/2014 10:13 AM, KC wrote:
On 2/13/2014 8:17 AM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 23:39:23 -0500, KC
wrote:

On 2/12/2014 11:22 PM, KC wrote:
On 2/12/2014 8:13 PM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 19:14:08 -0500, KC
wrote:

https://www.google.com/search?q=gpx+corner&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=x ev7Upn5IoSMqQGT-IGgBA&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAg&biw=1366&bih=667#q=motorcycl e+corner&tbm=isch

nd the rear tire is tracking inside
the track of the front tire..

There may be a couple exceptions such as corners that are too
sharp for
normal tracking... Again, those tracks are made for
drifting/countersteering so they will be faster in that
mode..

All of 'em.

https://www.google.com/search?q=gpx+corner&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=x ev7Upn5IoSMqQGT-IGgBA&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAg&biw=1366&bih=667#q=motorcycl e+corner&tbm=isch

Please John, end the madness... Take a second and go to the link
above
and post a quick link of the motorcycle you see in the first say,
half
of the page where the front wheel is turned away from the radius
and the
rear tire is tracking outside the front tire radius... or what
you call
countersteering. You said all of 'em. Apparently you don't know
what
countersteering really is....

I've already answered it. They got to where they are by
countersteering. They are staying in the
turn because they are pushing on the handlebar corresponding to
the direction of the turn. Push
left, go left. Push right, go right.

Here, now you look at something.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivwZ_DEFHrc

No question there... I had that save my ass on my CB500 Twin which
supposedly had a "Triumph" style front end. I hit a huge chunk of
frozen
slush and it kicked my tire out so I got loose, and let the thing
swing
back and fourth till it stood itself back up, I pulled over and
cleaned
my pants out... literally...

I understand the technique completely, no issue there I have a high
level of what they call three dimensional comprehension... I actually
see the forces of water and gyros, etc in my head when I design, I
used
to see how water would work around boat hulls when I drew them and
where
the drag would be etc... Put it in the computer and it was right,
used
to talk about it a lot with my engineer bud in Gloucester...

Anyway, to countersteering (which I believe in:)

It's not a question of belief, It's what is.

My only point is I
"can" initiate a turn without countersteering by meerely shifting my
weight before initiating the turn.

Very often it seems like a lean is initiating the turn, but in
reality it's the pressure you're
putting on the handlebar when you lean. For example, if I don't
exert any pressure on the handlebar,
I can lean over and pull my pants leg down without making a turn.
Have you never done that? Oh, I
suppose you could lean enough to change lanes on the highway, but
you'd not want to try taking any
sharp curves that way.

At the same time I also understand
that in the emergency situation when you don't have time to set up,
the
countersteer is the only way to start the turn... You see, I get
it, but
still like the guy in your vid said... "The countersteer initiates
the
turn, but the gyro effect immediately corrects it"...

The gyro effect immediately brings the bike back up - if the
countersteering is stopped - i.e., no
more pressure on the handle bar. If the pushing on the bar is
continued, the bike will lean more and
turn more sharply.

or you would
really be on the pavement... If you are countersteering through the
corner (over riding the natural "steering force" tendency to
"correct"),
you are sliding the back tire sideways and scrubbing off speed....

Totally wrong. If your speed is too fast for the turn, *then* you
may slide the rear tire. The force
on the handlebar (the countersteering force) is continued until you
are ready to straigten up and
come out of the turn. Then the push is relaxed and the bike corrects
itself - comes back to the
vertical.

Sliding at speed is *not* the way to turn corners.

I get it but how can you counter steer "through a corner"? None of the
bikes in my link have the bars turned away from the radius... The only
bikes I know that "counter steer" though a corner are these types of
bikes that run on ice and dirt. If you skip to the 1:05 minute mark and
watch this corner, you will see motorcycles counter steering
"through" a
corner. As we determined earlier. The front wheel is turned "away" from
the radius of the turn, and the rear tire is sliding in a radius
outside
the radius of the front tire...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqUnhTpbtSM

... as opposed to these guys who are clearly *not* counter steering
"through" a corner... as very clear if you skip to the 2 minute mark
and
watch the yellow bike on the right of the frame... It's front tire is
turned into the radius, and the rear tire is not sliding sideways, but
tracking forward in the direction of the turn, ideally slightly inside
the radius of the front tire... this bike is "steering" not counter
steering... as in the video of the flat trackers above...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjSXehuADx4

Period...

You're right. I made all that **** up.

No John, you are just not letting your emotion and ego, look at the
pictures, and listen to the words. You said "through" the corner, I
showed you two distinct versions, one steering, one counter steering
Take a breath and go look at 1:05 into the first vid, and 2:01 in the
second.... Pause them and just frekin' look......

Friendly suggestion. You might want to hold off on your condemnations
until you read and think about this a little more.

Dick, it's pretty simple. You were talking about starting a turn, and we
miscommunicated but we are both on the same page there.... John said
something totally different, said they are countersteering "through"
that's THROUGH the corner, which is what I was saying was incorrect....

Yup. Start and through. Once you let up, you straighten up.

Amen.

I think maybe I know why Scott thinks counter-steering is not required
*through* the turn. In his world of dirt bike racing they often
"slide" through a turn, so the rear wheel is constantly re-aligning to
the direction they want to go. That's why he keeps talking about
"thrust" and "steering with the rear wheel". I can understand that.
It's a constant, fluid redirection of the rear wheel relative to the
curve or "corner" as he puts it.

I agree. That's why I've tried to stick to pavement talk. When he mentioned earlier the idea of
touching the front brake to help with a turn, I think he's transferring weight to the front end,
losing traction on the rear end, and able to 'slide' the rear wheel around. That would be the only
reason I can see to 'touch' the front brake, unless the bike's just going to damn fast.

The funny thing is, the thread (started by me) posed the question of
what would happen when riding a bike (motorcycle) *straight* and
applying forward pressure on the left or right handlebar. I was
alluding to counter-steering.

Scott quickly jumped all over both of us with his worldly experience of
dirt track racing, "steering with the back tire", "thrust" and the
importance of shaving a tenth of a second off of taking the "corner".

None of which, of course, had anything to do with the original question
posed. Cracked me up.