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countersteering...
https://www.google.com/search?q=gpx+corner&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=x ev7Upn5IoSMqQGT-IGgBA&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAg&biw=1366&bih=667#q=motorcycl e+corner&tbm=isch Here are some fast street bikes... Please show me which one is countersteering cause they all look like they are trying their best to keep the bars turned into the turn, and the rear tire is tracking inside the track of the front tire.. There may be a couple exceptions such as corners that are too sharp for normal tracking... Again, those tracks are made for drifting/countersteering so they will be faster in that mode.. |
countersteering...
On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 19:14:08 -0500, KC wrote:
https://www.google.com/search?q=gpx+corner&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=x ev7Upn5IoSMqQGT-IGgBA&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAg&biw=1366&bih=667#q=motorcycl e+corner&tbm=isch Here are some fast street bikes... Please show me which one is countersteering cause they all look like they are trying their best to keep the bars turned into the turn, and the rear tire is tracking inside the track of the front tire.. There may be a couple exceptions such as corners that are too sharp for normal tracking... Again, those tracks are made for drifting/countersteering so they will be faster in that mode.. All of 'em. To keep the bike down they have to be exerting force on the low side handlebar, otherwise the bike will straighten by itself. Scotty - do your thing. But learn what countersteering is all about for that one time when you need to reflexively get out of someone's way or miss an obstacle in the road. 'Nuff said. |
countersteering...
On 2/12/2014 8:13 PM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 19:14:08 -0500, KC wrote: https://www.google.com/search?q=gpx+corner&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=x ev7Upn5IoSMqQGT-IGgBA&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAg&biw=1366&bih=667#q=motorcycl e+corner&tbm=isch Here are some fast street bikes... Please show me which one is countersteering cause they all look like they are trying their best to keep the bars turned into the turn, and the rear tire is tracking inside the track of the front tire.. There may be a couple exceptions such as corners that are too sharp for normal tracking... Again, those tracks are made for drifting/countersteering so they will be faster in that mode.. All of 'em. To keep the bike down they have to be exerting force on the low side handlebar, otherwise the bike will straighten by itself. But, but, but you said that "counter steering" involved turning the bars away from the direction of the turn... None of the bikes above have that except one ice racer way down the page.. Each and every bike there has the front tire turned into the radius and the rear tire tracking with or inside the front.... Scotty - do your thing. But learn what countersteering is all about for that one time when you need to reflexively get out of someone's way or miss an obstacle in the road. 'Nuff said. And if I get into an emergency I will.. But doing it intentionally or just running down the road and pushing a handle bar down, is just playing:) |
countersteering...
On 2/12/2014 11:22 PM, KC wrote:
On 2/12/2014 8:13 PM, Poco Loco wrote: On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 19:14:08 -0500, KC wrote: https://www.google.com/search?q=gpx+corner&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=x ev7Upn5IoSMqQGT-IGgBA&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAg&biw=1366&bih=667#q=motorcycl e+corner&tbm=isch nd the rear tire is tracking inside the track of the front tire.. There may be a couple exceptions such as corners that are too sharp for normal tracking... Again, those tracks are made for drifting/countersteering so they will be faster in that mode.. All of 'em. No way, you said counter steering is the front tire turned away from the radius.. NONE of the bikes above is in that positition, not one of them.. either you are blind, or stubborn, but the pictuers above clearly show the front tires turned into the radius... nuff' said... and until you can show me one that has the front tire turned away from the radius, that's it.. To keep the bike down they have to be exerting force on the low side handlebar, otherwise the bike will straighten by itself. |
countersteering...
On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 23:39:23 -0500, KC wrote:
On 2/12/2014 11:22 PM, KC wrote: On 2/12/2014 8:13 PM, Poco Loco wrote: On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 19:14:08 -0500, KC wrote: https://www.google.com/search?q=gpx+corner&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=x ev7Upn5IoSMqQGT-IGgBA&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAg&biw=1366&bih=667#q=motorcycl e+corner&tbm=isch nd the rear tire is tracking inside the track of the front tire.. There may be a couple exceptions such as corners that are too sharp for normal tracking... Again, those tracks are made for drifting/countersteering so they will be faster in that mode.. All of 'em. No way, you said counter steering is the front tire turned away from the radius.. NONE of the bikes above is in that positition, not one of them.. either you are blind, or stubborn, but the pictuers above clearly show the front tires turned into the radius... nuff' said... and until you can show me one that has the front tire turned away from the radius, that's it.. To keep the bike down they have to be exerting force on the low side handlebar, otherwise the bike will straighten by itself. Can't quit can you. Don't go by what I said, plug 'counter steering' into Google and learn something. It will, obviously, do you a lot of good. |
countersteering...
On 2/13/2014 8:17 AM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 23:39:23 -0500, KC wrote: On 2/12/2014 11:22 PM, KC wrote: On 2/12/2014 8:13 PM, Poco Loco wrote: On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 19:14:08 -0500, KC wrote: https://www.google.com/search?q=gpx+corner&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=x ev7Upn5IoSMqQGT-IGgBA&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAg&biw=1366&bih=667#q=motorcycl e+corner&tbm=isch nd the rear tire is tracking inside the track of the front tire.. There may be a couple exceptions such as corners that are too sharp for normal tracking... Again, those tracks are made for drifting/countersteering so they will be faster in that mode.. All of 'em. No way, you said counter steering is the front tire turned away from the radius.. NONE of the bikes above is in that positition, not one of them.. either you are blind, or stubborn, but the pictuers above clearly show the front tires turned into the radius... nuff' said... and until you can show me one that has the front tire turned away from the radius, that's it.. To keep the bike down they have to be exerting force on the low side handlebar, otherwise the bike will straighten by itself. Can't quit can you. Don't go by what I said, plug 'counter steering' into Google and learn something. It will, obviously, do you a lot of good. Still waiting for you to show me the bike that's countersteering in the google link I sent of "motorcycles turning".... snerk |
countersteering...
On 2/13/2014 10:13 AM, KC wrote:
On 2/13/2014 8:17 AM, Poco Loco wrote: On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 23:39:23 -0500, KC wrote: On 2/12/2014 11:22 PM, KC wrote: On 2/12/2014 8:13 PM, Poco Loco wrote: On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 19:14:08 -0500, KC wrote: https://www.google.com/search?q=gpx+corner&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=x ev7Upn5IoSMqQGT-IGgBA&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAg&biw=1366&bih=667#q=motorcycl e+corner&tbm=isch nd the rear tire is tracking inside the track of the front tire.. There may be a couple exceptions such as corners that are too sharp for normal tracking... Again, those tracks are made for drifting/countersteering so they will be faster in that mode.. All of 'em. https://www.google.com/search?q=gpx+corner&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=x ev7Upn5IoSMqQGT-IGgBA&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAg&biw=1366&bih=667#q=motorcycl e+corner&tbm=isch Please John, end the madness... Take a second and go to the link above and post a quick link of the motorcycle you see in the first say, half of the page where the front wheel is turned away from the radius and the rear tire is tracking outside the front tire radius... or what you call countersteering. You said all of 'em. Apparently you don't know what countersteering really is.... |
countersteering...
On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 10:20:32 -0500, KC wrote:
On 2/13/2014 10:13 AM, KC wrote: On 2/13/2014 8:17 AM, Poco Loco wrote: On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 23:39:23 -0500, KC wrote: On 2/12/2014 11:22 PM, KC wrote: On 2/12/2014 8:13 PM, Poco Loco wrote: On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 19:14:08 -0500, KC wrote: https://www.google.com/search?q=gpx+corner&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=x ev7Upn5IoSMqQGT-IGgBA&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAg&biw=1366&bih=667#q=motorcycl e+corner&tbm=isch nd the rear tire is tracking inside the track of the front tire.. There may be a couple exceptions such as corners that are too sharp for normal tracking... Again, those tracks are made for drifting/countersteering so they will be faster in that mode.. All of 'em. https://www.google.com/search?q=gpx+corner&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=x ev7Upn5IoSMqQGT-IGgBA&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAg&biw=1366&bih=667#q=motorcycl e+corner&tbm=isch Please John, end the madness... Take a second and go to the link above and post a quick link of the motorcycle you see in the first say, half of the page where the front wheel is turned away from the radius and the rear tire is tracking outside the front tire radius... or what you call countersteering. You said all of 'em. Apparently you don't know what countersteering really is.... I've already answered it. They got to where they are by countersteering. They are staying in the turn because they are pushing on the handlebar corresponding to the direction of the turn. Push left, go left. Push right, go right. Here, now you look at something. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivwZ_DEFHrc Bear with him. Here's another - well explained. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nlc1bGPTR3c |
countersteering...
On 2/13/2014 12:16 PM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 10:20:32 -0500, KC wrote: On 2/13/2014 10:13 AM, KC wrote: On 2/13/2014 8:17 AM, Poco Loco wrote: On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 23:39:23 -0500, KC wrote: On 2/12/2014 11:22 PM, KC wrote: On 2/12/2014 8:13 PM, Poco Loco wrote: On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 19:14:08 -0500, KC wrote: https://www.google.com/search?q=gpx+corner&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=x ev7Upn5IoSMqQGT-IGgBA&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAg&biw=1366&bih=667#q=motorcycl e+corner&tbm=isch nd the rear tire is tracking inside the track of the front tire.. There may be a couple exceptions such as corners that are too sharp for normal tracking... Again, those tracks are made for drifting/countersteering so they will be faster in that mode.. All of 'em. https://www.google.com/search?q=gpx+corner&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=x ev7Upn5IoSMqQGT-IGgBA&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAg&biw=1366&bih=667#q=motorcycl e+corner&tbm=isch Please John, end the madness... Take a second and go to the link above and post a quick link of the motorcycle you see in the first say, half of the page where the front wheel is turned away from the radius and the rear tire is tracking outside the front tire radius... or what you call countersteering. You said all of 'em. Apparently you don't know what countersteering really is.... I've already answered it. They got to where they are by countersteering. They are staying in the turn because they are pushing on the handlebar corresponding to the direction of the turn. Push left, go left. Push right, go right. Here, now you look at something. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivwZ_DEFHrc No question there... I had that save my ass on my CB500 Twin which supposedly had a "Triumph" style front end. I hit a huge chunk of frozen slush and it kicked my tire out so I got loose, and let the thing swing back and fourth till it stood itself back up, I pulled over and cleaned my pants out... literally... I understand the technique completely, no issue there I have a high level of what they call three dimensional comprehension... I actually see the forces of water and gyros, etc in my head when I design, I used to see how water would work around boat hulls when I drew them and where the drag would be etc... Put it in the computer and it was right, used to talk about it a lot with my engineer bud in Gloucester... Anyway, to countersteering (which I believe in:) My only point is I "can" initiate a turn without countersteering by meerely shifting my weight before initiating the turn. At the same time I also understand that in the emergency situation when you don't have time to set up, the countersteer is the only way to start the turn... You see, I get it, but still like the guy in your vid said... "The countersteer initiates the turn, but the gyro effect immediately corrects it"... or you would really be on the pavement... If you are countersteering through the corner (over riding the natural "steering force" tendency to "correct"), you are sliding the back tire sideways and scrubbing off speed.... Bear with him. Here's another - well explained. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nlc1bGPTR3c |
countersteering...
On 2/13/14, 3:29 PM, KC wrote:
I understand the technique completely, no issue there I have a high level of what they call three dimensional comprehension. Wow. You could have been an astronaut! :) -- Sarah Palin is watching the Sochi Olympic Games from the front porch of her house. |
countersteering...
On 2/13/2014 12:16 PM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 10:20:32 -0500, KC wrote: On 2/13/2014 10:13 AM, KC wrote: On 2/13/2014 8:17 AM, Poco Loco wrote: On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 23:39:23 -0500, KC wrote: On 2/12/2014 11:22 PM, KC wrote: On 2/12/2014 8:13 PM, Poco Loco wrote: On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 19:14:08 -0500, KC wrote: https://www.google.com/search?q=gpx+corner&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=x ev7Upn5IoSMqQGT-IGgBA&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAg&biw=1366&bih=667#q=motorcycl e+corner&tbm=isch nd the rear tire is tracking inside the track of the front tire.. There may be a couple exceptions such as corners that are too sharp for normal tracking... Again, those tracks are made for drifting/countersteering so they will be faster in that mode.. All of 'em. https://www.google.com/search?q=gpx+corner&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=x ev7Upn5IoSMqQGT-IGgBA&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAg&biw=1366&bih=667#q=motorcycl e+corner&tbm=isch Please John, end the madness... Take a second and go to the link above and post a quick link of the motorcycle you see in the first say, half of the page where the front wheel is turned away from the radius and the rear tire is tracking outside the front tire radius... or what you call countersteering. You said all of 'em. Apparently you don't know what countersteering really is.... I've already answered it. They got to where they are by countersteering. They are staying in the turn because they are pushing on the handlebar corresponding to the direction of the turn. Push left, go left. Push right, go right. Here, now you look at something. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivwZ_DEFHrc Bear with him. Here's another - well explained. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nlc1bGPTR3c Again, it's a parlor trick here... When he is standing and showing you, he is on both feet and doesn't shift his weight. Same when he is on the highway. If you push the left bar without leaning, it will go right for a second but correct, keep that pushed and you go over. At the same time, lean right and then push the left bar, and the opposite happens, and there is no correction...... |
countersteering...
On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 15:29:25 -0500, KC wrote:
On 2/13/2014 12:16 PM, Poco Loco wrote: On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 10:20:32 -0500, KC wrote: On 2/13/2014 10:13 AM, KC wrote: On 2/13/2014 8:17 AM, Poco Loco wrote: On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 23:39:23 -0500, KC wrote: On 2/12/2014 11:22 PM, KC wrote: On 2/12/2014 8:13 PM, Poco Loco wrote: On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 19:14:08 -0500, KC wrote: https://www.google.com/search?q=gpx+corner&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=x ev7Upn5IoSMqQGT-IGgBA&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAg&biw=1366&bih=667#q=motorcycl e+corner&tbm=isch nd the rear tire is tracking inside the track of the front tire.. There may be a couple exceptions such as corners that are too sharp for normal tracking... Again, those tracks are made for drifting/countersteering so they will be faster in that mode.. All of 'em. https://www.google.com/search?q=gpx+corner&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=x ev7Upn5IoSMqQGT-IGgBA&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAg&biw=1366&bih=667#q=motorcycl e+corner&tbm=isch Please John, end the madness... Take a second and go to the link above and post a quick link of the motorcycle you see in the first say, half of the page where the front wheel is turned away from the radius and the rear tire is tracking outside the front tire radius... or what you call countersteering. You said all of 'em. Apparently you don't know what countersteering really is.... I've already answered it. They got to where they are by countersteering. They are staying in the turn because they are pushing on the handlebar corresponding to the direction of the turn. Push left, go left. Push right, go right. Here, now you look at something. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivwZ_DEFHrc No question there... I had that save my ass on my CB500 Twin which supposedly had a "Triumph" style front end. I hit a huge chunk of frozen slush and it kicked my tire out so I got loose, and let the thing swing back and fourth till it stood itself back up, I pulled over and cleaned my pants out... literally... I understand the technique completely, no issue there I have a high level of what they call three dimensional comprehension... I actually see the forces of water and gyros, etc in my head when I design, I used to see how water would work around boat hulls when I drew them and where the drag would be etc... Put it in the computer and it was right, used to talk about it a lot with my engineer bud in Gloucester... Anyway, to countersteering (which I believe in:) It's not a question of belief, It's what is. My only point is I "can" initiate a turn without countersteering by meerely shifting my weight before initiating the turn. Very often it seems like a lean is initiating the turn, but in reality it's the pressure you're putting on the handlebar when you lean. For example, if I don't exert any pressure on the handlebar, I can lean over and pull my pants leg down without making a turn. Have you never done that? Oh, I suppose you could lean enough to change lanes on the highway, but you'd not want to try taking any sharp curves that way. At the same time I also understand that in the emergency situation when you don't have time to set up, the countersteer is the only way to start the turn... You see, I get it, but still like the guy in your vid said... "The countersteer initiates the turn, but the gyro effect immediately corrects it"... The gyro effect immediately brings the bike back up - if the countersteering is stopped - i.e., no more pressure on the handle bar. If the pushing on the bar is continued, the bike will lean more and turn more sharply. or you would really be on the pavement... If you are countersteering through the corner (over riding the natural "steering force" tendency to "correct"), you are sliding the back tire sideways and scrubbing off speed.... Totally wrong. If your speed is too fast for the turn, *then* you may slide the rear tire. The force on the handlebar (the countersteering force) is continued until you are ready to straigten up and come out of the turn. Then the push is relaxed and the bike corrects itself - comes back to the vertical. Sliding at speed is *not* the way to turn corners. |
countersteering...
On 2/13/2014 4:04 PM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 15:29:25 -0500, KC wrote: On 2/13/2014 12:16 PM, Poco Loco wrote: On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 10:20:32 -0500, KC wrote: On 2/13/2014 10:13 AM, KC wrote: On 2/13/2014 8:17 AM, Poco Loco wrote: On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 23:39:23 -0500, KC wrote: On 2/12/2014 11:22 PM, KC wrote: On 2/12/2014 8:13 PM, Poco Loco wrote: On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 19:14:08 -0500, KC wrote: https://www.google.com/search?q=gpx+corner&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=x ev7Upn5IoSMqQGT-IGgBA&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAg&biw=1366&bih=667#q=motorcycl e+corner&tbm=isch nd the rear tire is tracking inside the track of the front tire.. There may be a couple exceptions such as corners that are too sharp for normal tracking... Again, those tracks are made for drifting/countersteering so they will be faster in that mode.. All of 'em. https://www.google.com/search?q=gpx+corner&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=x ev7Upn5IoSMqQGT-IGgBA&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAg&biw=1366&bih=667#q=motorcycl e+corner&tbm=isch Please John, end the madness... Take a second and go to the link above and post a quick link of the motorcycle you see in the first say, half of the page where the front wheel is turned away from the radius and the rear tire is tracking outside the front tire radius... or what you call countersteering. You said all of 'em. Apparently you don't know what countersteering really is.... I've already answered it. They got to where they are by countersteering. They are staying in the turn because they are pushing on the handlebar corresponding to the direction of the turn. Push left, go left. Push right, go right. Here, now you look at something. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivwZ_DEFHrc No question there... I had that save my ass on my CB500 Twin which supposedly had a "Triumph" style front end. I hit a huge chunk of frozen slush and it kicked my tire out so I got loose, and let the thing swing back and fourth till it stood itself back up, I pulled over and cleaned my pants out... literally... I understand the technique completely, no issue there I have a high level of what they call three dimensional comprehension... I actually see the forces of water and gyros, etc in my head when I design, I used to see how water would work around boat hulls when I drew them and where the drag would be etc... Put it in the computer and it was right, used to talk about it a lot with my engineer bud in Gloucester... Anyway, to countersteering (which I believe in:) It's not a question of belief, It's what is. My only point is I "can" initiate a turn without countersteering by meerely shifting my weight before initiating the turn. Very often it seems like a lean is initiating the turn, but in reality it's the pressure you're putting on the handlebar when you lean. For example, if I don't exert any pressure on the handlebar, I can lean over and pull my pants leg down without making a turn. Have you never done that? Oh, I suppose you could lean enough to change lanes on the highway, but you'd not want to try taking any sharp curves that way. At the same time I also understand that in the emergency situation when you don't have time to set up, the countersteer is the only way to start the turn... You see, I get it, but still like the guy in your vid said... "The countersteer initiates the turn, but the gyro effect immediately corrects it"... The gyro effect immediately brings the bike back up - if the countersteering is stopped - i.e., no more pressure on the handle bar. If the pushing on the bar is continued, the bike will lean more and turn more sharply. or you would really be on the pavement... If you are countersteering through the corner (over riding the natural "steering force" tendency to "correct"), you are sliding the back tire sideways and scrubbing off speed.... Totally wrong. If your speed is too fast for the turn, *then* you may slide the rear tire. The force on the handlebar (the countersteering force) is continued until you are ready to straigten up and come out of the turn. Then the push is relaxed and the bike corrects itself - comes back to the vertical. Sliding at speed is *not* the way to turn corners. I get it but how can you counter steer "through a corner"? None of the bikes in my link have the bars turned away from the radius... The only bikes I know that "counter steer" though a corner are these types of bikes that run on ice and dirt. If you skip to the 1:05 minute mark and watch this corner, you will see motorcycles counter steering "through" a corner. As we determined earlier. The front wheel is turned "away" from the radius of the turn, and the rear tire is sliding in a radius outside the radius of the front tire... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqUnhTpbtSM .... as opposed to these guys who are clearly *not* counter steering "through" a corner... as very clear if you skip to the 2 minute mark and watch the yellow bike on the right of the frame... It's front tire is turned into the radius, and the rear tire is not sliding sideways, but tracking forward in the direction of the turn, ideally slightly inside the radius of the front tire... this bike is "steering" not counter steering... as in the video of the flat trackers above... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjSXehuADx4 Period... |
countersteering...
On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 16:37:10 -0500, KC wrote:
On 2/13/2014 4:04 PM, Poco Loco wrote: On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 15:29:25 -0500, KC wrote: On 2/13/2014 12:16 PM, Poco Loco wrote: On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 10:20:32 -0500, KC wrote: On 2/13/2014 10:13 AM, KC wrote: On 2/13/2014 8:17 AM, Poco Loco wrote: On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 23:39:23 -0500, KC wrote: On 2/12/2014 11:22 PM, KC wrote: On 2/12/2014 8:13 PM, Poco Loco wrote: On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 19:14:08 -0500, KC wrote: https://www.google.com/search?q=gpx+corner&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=x ev7Upn5IoSMqQGT-IGgBA&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAg&biw=1366&bih=667#q=motorcycl e+corner&tbm=isch nd the rear tire is tracking inside the track of the front tire.. There may be a couple exceptions such as corners that are too sharp for normal tracking... Again, those tracks are made for drifting/countersteering so they will be faster in that mode.. All of 'em. https://www.google.com/search?q=gpx+corner&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=x ev7Upn5IoSMqQGT-IGgBA&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAg&biw=1366&bih=667#q=motorcycl e+corner&tbm=isch Please John, end the madness... Take a second and go to the link above and post a quick link of the motorcycle you see in the first say, half of the page where the front wheel is turned away from the radius and the rear tire is tracking outside the front tire radius... or what you call countersteering. You said all of 'em. Apparently you don't know what countersteering really is.... I've already answered it. They got to where they are by countersteering. They are staying in the turn because they are pushing on the handlebar corresponding to the direction of the turn. Push left, go left. Push right, go right. Here, now you look at something. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivwZ_DEFHrc No question there... I had that save my ass on my CB500 Twin which supposedly had a "Triumph" style front end. I hit a huge chunk of frozen slush and it kicked my tire out so I got loose, and let the thing swing back and fourth till it stood itself back up, I pulled over and cleaned my pants out... literally... I understand the technique completely, no issue there I have a high level of what they call three dimensional comprehension... I actually see the forces of water and gyros, etc in my head when I design, I used to see how water would work around boat hulls when I drew them and where the drag would be etc... Put it in the computer and it was right, used to talk about it a lot with my engineer bud in Gloucester... Anyway, to countersteering (which I believe in:) It's not a question of belief, It's what is. My only point is I "can" initiate a turn without countersteering by meerely shifting my weight before initiating the turn. Very often it seems like a lean is initiating the turn, but in reality it's the pressure you're putting on the handlebar when you lean. For example, if I don't exert any pressure on the handlebar, I can lean over and pull my pants leg down without making a turn. Have you never done that? Oh, I suppose you could lean enough to change lanes on the highway, but you'd not want to try taking any sharp curves that way. At the same time I also understand that in the emergency situation when you don't have time to set up, the countersteer is the only way to start the turn... You see, I get it, but still like the guy in your vid said... "The countersteer initiates the turn, but the gyro effect immediately corrects it"... The gyro effect immediately brings the bike back up - if the countersteering is stopped - i.e., no more pressure on the handle bar. If the pushing on the bar is continued, the bike will lean more and turn more sharply. or you would really be on the pavement... If you are countersteering through the corner (over riding the natural "steering force" tendency to "correct"), you are sliding the back tire sideways and scrubbing off speed.... Totally wrong. If your speed is too fast for the turn, *then* you may slide the rear tire. The force on the handlebar (the countersteering force) is continued until you are ready to straigten up and come out of the turn. Then the push is relaxed and the bike corrects itself - comes back to the vertical. Sliding at speed is *not* the way to turn corners. I get it but how can you counter steer "through a corner"? None of the bikes in my link have the bars turned away from the radius... The only bikes I know that "counter steer" though a corner are these types of bikes that run on ice and dirt. If you skip to the 1:05 minute mark and watch this corner, you will see motorcycles counter steering "through" a corner. As we determined earlier. The front wheel is turned "away" from the radius of the turn, and the rear tire is sliding in a radius outside the radius of the front tire... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqUnhTpbtSM ... as opposed to these guys who are clearly *not* counter steering "through" a corner... as very clear if you skip to the 2 minute mark and watch the yellow bike on the right of the frame... It's front tire is turned into the radius, and the rear tire is not sliding sideways, but tracking forward in the direction of the turn, ideally slightly inside the radius of the front tire... this bike is "steering" not counter steering... as in the video of the flat trackers above... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjSXehuADx4 Period... You're right. I made all that **** up. |
countersteering...
On 2/13/2014 5:02 PM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 16:37:10 -0500, KC wrote: On 2/13/2014 4:04 PM, Poco Loco wrote: On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 15:29:25 -0500, KC wrote: On 2/13/2014 12:16 PM, Poco Loco wrote: On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 10:20:32 -0500, KC wrote: On 2/13/2014 10:13 AM, KC wrote: On 2/13/2014 8:17 AM, Poco Loco wrote: On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 23:39:23 -0500, KC wrote: On 2/12/2014 11:22 PM, KC wrote: On 2/12/2014 8:13 PM, Poco Loco wrote: On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 19:14:08 -0500, KC wrote: https://www.google.com/search?q=gpx+corner&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=x ev7Upn5IoSMqQGT-IGgBA&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAg&biw=1366&bih=667#q=motorcycl e+corner&tbm=isch nd the rear tire is tracking inside the track of the front tire.. There may be a couple exceptions such as corners that are too sharp for normal tracking... Again, those tracks are made for drifting/countersteering so they will be faster in that mode.. All of 'em. https://www.google.com/search?q=gpx+corner&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=x ev7Upn5IoSMqQGT-IGgBA&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAg&biw=1366&bih=667#q=motorcycl e+corner&tbm=isch Please John, end the madness... Take a second and go to the link above and post a quick link of the motorcycle you see in the first say, half of the page where the front wheel is turned away from the radius and the rear tire is tracking outside the front tire radius... or what you call countersteering. You said all of 'em. Apparently you don't know what countersteering really is.... I've already answered it. They got to where they are by countersteering. They are staying in the turn because they are pushing on the handlebar corresponding to the direction of the turn. Push left, go left. Push right, go right. Here, now you look at something. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivwZ_DEFHrc No question there... I had that save my ass on my CB500 Twin which supposedly had a "Triumph" style front end. I hit a huge chunk of frozen slush and it kicked my tire out so I got loose, and let the thing swing back and fourth till it stood itself back up, I pulled over and cleaned my pants out... literally... I understand the technique completely, no issue there I have a high level of what they call three dimensional comprehension... I actually see the forces of water and gyros, etc in my head when I design, I used to see how water would work around boat hulls when I drew them and where the drag would be etc... Put it in the computer and it was right, used to talk about it a lot with my engineer bud in Gloucester... Anyway, to countersteering (which I believe in:) It's not a question of belief, It's what is. My only point is I "can" initiate a turn without countersteering by meerely shifting my weight before initiating the turn. Very often it seems like a lean is initiating the turn, but in reality it's the pressure you're putting on the handlebar when you lean. For example, if I don't exert any pressure on the handlebar, I can lean over and pull my pants leg down without making a turn. Have you never done that? Oh, I suppose you could lean enough to change lanes on the highway, but you'd not want to try taking any sharp curves that way. At the same time I also understand that in the emergency situation when you don't have time to set up, the countersteer is the only way to start the turn... You see, I get it, but still like the guy in your vid said... "The countersteer initiates the turn, but the gyro effect immediately corrects it"... The gyro effect immediately brings the bike back up - if the countersteering is stopped - i.e., no more pressure on the handle bar. If the pushing on the bar is continued, the bike will lean more and turn more sharply. or you would really be on the pavement... If you are countersteering through the corner (over riding the natural "steering force" tendency to "correct"), you are sliding the back tire sideways and scrubbing off speed.... Totally wrong. If your speed is too fast for the turn, *then* you may slide the rear tire. The force on the handlebar (the countersteering force) is continued until you are ready to straigten up and come out of the turn. Then the push is relaxed and the bike corrects itself - comes back to the vertical. Sliding at speed is *not* the way to turn corners. I get it but how can you counter steer "through a corner"? None of the bikes in my link have the bars turned away from the radius... The only bikes I know that "counter steer" though a corner are these types of bikes that run on ice and dirt. If you skip to the 1:05 minute mark and watch this corner, you will see motorcycles counter steering "through" a corner. As we determined earlier. The front wheel is turned "away" from the radius of the turn, and the rear tire is sliding in a radius outside the radius of the front tire... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqUnhTpbtSM ... as opposed to these guys who are clearly *not* counter steering "through" a corner... as very clear if you skip to the 2 minute mark and watch the yellow bike on the right of the frame... It's front tire is turned into the radius, and the rear tire is not sliding sideways, but tracking forward in the direction of the turn, ideally slightly inside the radius of the front tire... this bike is "steering" not counter steering... as in the video of the flat trackers above... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjSXehuADx4 Period... You're right. I made all that **** up. No John, you are just not letting your emotion and ego, look at the pictures, and listen to the words. You said "through" the corner, I showed you two distinct versions, one steering, one counter steering Take a breath and go look at 1:05 into the first vid, and 2:01 in the second.... Pause them and just frekin' look...... |
countersteering...
On 2/13/2014 5:02 PM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 16:37:10 -0500, KC wrote: On 2/13/2014 4:04 PM, Poco Loco wrote: On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 15:29:25 -0500, KC wrote: On 2/13/2014 12:16 PM, Poco Loco wrote: On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 10:20:32 -0500, KC wrote: On 2/13/2014 10:13 AM, KC wrote: On 2/13/2014 8:17 AM, Poco Loco wrote: On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 23:39:23 -0500, KC wrote: On 2/12/2014 11:22 PM, KC wrote: On 2/12/2014 8:13 PM, Poco Loco wrote: On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 19:14:08 -0500, KC wrote: https://www.google.com/search?q=gpx+corner&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=x ev7Upn5IoSMqQGT-IGgBA&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAg&biw=1366&bih=667#q=motorcycl e+corner&tbm=isch nd the rear tire is tracking inside the track of the front tire.. There may be a couple exceptions such as corners that are too sharp for normal tracking... Again, those tracks are made for drifting/countersteering so they will be faster in that mode.. All of 'em. https://www.google.com/search?q=gpx+corner&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=x ev7Upn5IoSMqQGT-IGgBA&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAg&biw=1366&bih=667#q=motorcycl e+corner&tbm=isch Please John, end the madness... Take a second and go to the link above and post a quick link of the motorcycle you see in the first say, half of the page where the front wheel is turned away from the radius and the rear tire is tracking outside the front tire radius... or what you call countersteering. You said all of 'em. Apparently you don't know what countersteering really is.... I've already answered it. They got to where they are by countersteering. They are staying in the turn because they are pushing on the handlebar corresponding to the direction of the turn. Push left, go left. Push right, go right. Here, now you look at something. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivwZ_DEFHrc No question there... I had that save my ass on my CB500 Twin which supposedly had a "Triumph" style front end. I hit a huge chunk of frozen slush and it kicked my tire out so I got loose, and let the thing swing back and fourth till it stood itself back up, I pulled over and cleaned my pants out... literally... I understand the technique completely, no issue there I have a high level of what they call three dimensional comprehension... I actually see the forces of water and gyros, etc in my head when I design, I used to see how water would work around boat hulls when I drew them and where the drag would be etc... Put it in the computer and it was right, used to talk about it a lot with my engineer bud in Gloucester... Anyway, to countersteering (which I believe in:) It's not a question of belief, It's what is. My only point is I "can" initiate a turn without countersteering by meerely shifting my weight before initiating the turn. Very often it seems like a lean is initiating the turn, but in reality it's the pressure you're putting on the handlebar when you lean. For example, if I don't exert any pressure on the handlebar, I can lean over and pull my pants leg down without making a turn. Have you never done that? Oh, I suppose you could lean enough to change lanes on the highway, but you'd not want to try taking any sharp curves that way. At the same time I also understand that in the emergency situation when you don't have time to set up, the countersteer is the only way to start the turn... You see, I get it, but still like the guy in your vid said... "The countersteer initiates the turn, but the gyro effect immediately corrects it"... The gyro effect immediately brings the bike back up - if the countersteering is stopped - i.e., no more pressure on the handle bar. If the pushing on the bar is continued, the bike will lean more and turn more sharply. or you would really be on the pavement... If you are countersteering through the corner (over riding the natural "steering force" tendency to "correct"), you are sliding the back tire sideways and scrubbing off speed.... Totally wrong. If your speed is too fast for the turn, *then* you may slide the rear tire. The force on the handlebar (the countersteering force) is continued until you are ready to straigten up and come out of the turn. Then the push is relaxed and the bike corrects itself - comes back to the vertical. Sliding at speed is *not* the way to turn corners. I get it but how can you counter steer "through a corner"? None of the bikes in my link have the bars turned away from the radius... The only bikes I know that "counter steer" though a corner are these types of bikes that run on ice and dirt. If you skip to the 1:05 minute mark and watch this corner, you will see motorcycles counter steering "through" a corner. As we determined earlier. The front wheel is turned "away" from the radius of the turn, and the rear tire is sliding in a radius outside the radius of the front tire... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqUnhTpbtSM ... as opposed to these guys who are clearly *not* counter steering "through" a corner... as very clear if you skip to the 2 minute mark and watch the yellow bike on the right of the frame... It's front tire is turned into the radius, and the rear tire is not sliding sideways, but tracking forward in the direction of the turn, ideally slightly inside the radius of the front tire... this bike is "steering" not counter steering... as in the video of the flat trackers above... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjSXehuADx4 Period... You're right. I made all that **** up. Here, listen to someone but me.... http://answers.yahoo.com/question/in...3163009AAapJ8R |
countersteering...
On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 17:10:43 -0500, KC wrote:
On 2/13/2014 5:02 PM, Poco Loco wrote: On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 16:37:10 -0500, KC wrote: On 2/13/2014 4:04 PM, Poco Loco wrote: On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 15:29:25 -0500, KC wrote: On 2/13/2014 12:16 PM, Poco Loco wrote: On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 10:20:32 -0500, KC wrote: On 2/13/2014 10:13 AM, KC wrote: On 2/13/2014 8:17 AM, Poco Loco wrote: On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 23:39:23 -0500, KC wrote: On 2/12/2014 11:22 PM, KC wrote: On 2/12/2014 8:13 PM, Poco Loco wrote: On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 19:14:08 -0500, KC wrote: https://www.google.com/search?q=gpx+corner&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=x ev7Upn5IoSMqQGT-IGgBA&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAg&biw=1366&bih=667#q=motorcycl e+corner&tbm=isch nd the rear tire is tracking inside the track of the front tire.. There may be a couple exceptions such as corners that are too sharp for normal tracking... Again, those tracks are made for drifting/countersteering so they will be faster in that mode.. All of 'em. https://www.google.com/search?q=gpx+corner&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=x ev7Upn5IoSMqQGT-IGgBA&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAg&biw=1366&bih=667#q=motorcycl e+corner&tbm=isch Please John, end the madness... Take a second and go to the link above and post a quick link of the motorcycle you see in the first say, half of the page where the front wheel is turned away from the radius and the rear tire is tracking outside the front tire radius... or what you call countersteering. You said all of 'em. Apparently you don't know what countersteering really is.... I've already answered it. They got to where they are by countersteering. They are staying in the turn because they are pushing on the handlebar corresponding to the direction of the turn. Push left, go left. Push right, go right. Here, now you look at something. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivwZ_DEFHrc No question there... I had that save my ass on my CB500 Twin which supposedly had a "Triumph" style front end. I hit a huge chunk of frozen slush and it kicked my tire out so I got loose, and let the thing swing back and fourth till it stood itself back up, I pulled over and cleaned my pants out... literally... I understand the technique completely, no issue there I have a high level of what they call three dimensional comprehension... I actually see the forces of water and gyros, etc in my head when I design, I used to see how water would work around boat hulls when I drew them and where the drag would be etc... Put it in the computer and it was right, used to talk about it a lot with my engineer bud in Gloucester... Anyway, to countersteering (which I believe in:) It's not a question of belief, It's what is. My only point is I "can" initiate a turn without countersteering by meerely shifting my weight before initiating the turn. Very often it seems like a lean is initiating the turn, but in reality it's the pressure you're putting on the handlebar when you lean. For example, if I don't exert any pressure on the handlebar, I can lean over and pull my pants leg down without making a turn. Have you never done that? Oh, I suppose you could lean enough to change lanes on the highway, but you'd not want to try taking any sharp curves that way. At the same time I also understand that in the emergency situation when you don't have time to set up, the countersteer is the only way to start the turn... You see, I get it, but still like the guy in your vid said... "The countersteer initiates the turn, but the gyro effect immediately corrects it"... The gyro effect immediately brings the bike back up - if the countersteering is stopped - i.e., no more pressure on the handle bar. If the pushing on the bar is continued, the bike will lean more and turn more sharply. or you would really be on the pavement... If you are countersteering through the corner (over riding the natural "steering force" tendency to "correct"), you are sliding the back tire sideways and scrubbing off speed.... Totally wrong. If your speed is too fast for the turn, *then* you may slide the rear tire. The force on the handlebar (the countersteering force) is continued until you are ready to straigten up and come out of the turn. Then the push is relaxed and the bike corrects itself - comes back to the vertical. Sliding at speed is *not* the way to turn corners. I get it but how can you counter steer "through a corner"? None of the bikes in my link have the bars turned away from the radius... The only bikes I know that "counter steer" though a corner are these types of bikes that run on ice and dirt. If you skip to the 1:05 minute mark and watch this corner, you will see motorcycles counter steering "through" a corner. As we determined earlier. The front wheel is turned "away" from the radius of the turn, and the rear tire is sliding in a radius outside the radius of the front tire... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqUnhTpbtSM ... as opposed to these guys who are clearly *not* counter steering "through" a corner... as very clear if you skip to the 2 minute mark and watch the yellow bike on the right of the frame... It's front tire is turned into the radius, and the rear tire is not sliding sideways, but tracking forward in the direction of the turn, ideally slightly inside the radius of the front tire... this bike is "steering" not counter steering... as in the video of the flat trackers above... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjSXehuADx4 Period... You're right. I made all that **** up. Here, listen to someone but me.... http://answers.yahoo.com/question/in...3163009AAapJ8R Firestormer knows what he's talking about. Scooter doesn't have a friggin' clue. I assume you agree with Scooter. Adios. I've just been pulling your leg all this time. There's no such thing as counter steering. Next time you're hitting the tight curves, just take your hands off the bars and lean. |
countersteering...
On 2/13/2014 5:16 PM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 17:10:43 -0500, KC wrote: On 2/13/2014 5:02 PM, Poco Loco wrote: On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 16:37:10 -0500, KC wrote: On 2/13/2014 4:04 PM, Poco Loco wrote: On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 15:29:25 -0500, KC wrote: On 2/13/2014 12:16 PM, Poco Loco wrote: On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 10:20:32 -0500, KC wrote: On 2/13/2014 10:13 AM, KC wrote: On 2/13/2014 8:17 AM, Poco Loco wrote: On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 23:39:23 -0500, KC wrote: On 2/12/2014 11:22 PM, KC wrote: On 2/12/2014 8:13 PM, Poco Loco wrote: On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 19:14:08 -0500, KC wrote: https://www.google.com/search?q=gpx+corner&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=x ev7Upn5IoSMqQGT-IGgBA&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAg&biw=1366&bih=667#q=motorcycl e+corner&tbm=isch nd the rear tire is tracking inside the track of the front tire.. There may be a couple exceptions such as corners that are too sharp for normal tracking... Again, those tracks are made for drifting/countersteering so they will be faster in that mode.. All of 'em. https://www.google.com/search?q=gpx+corner&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=x ev7Upn5IoSMqQGT-IGgBA&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAg&biw=1366&bih=667#q=motorcycl e+corner&tbm=isch Please John, end the madness... Take a second and go to the link above and post a quick link of the motorcycle you see in the first say, half of the page where the front wheel is turned away from the radius and the rear tire is tracking outside the front tire radius... or what you call countersteering. You said all of 'em. Apparently you don't know what countersteering really is.... I've already answered it. They got to where they are by countersteering. They are staying in the turn because they are pushing on the handlebar corresponding to the direction of the turn. Push left, go left. Push right, go right. Here, now you look at something. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivwZ_DEFHrc No question there... I had that save my ass on my CB500 Twin which supposedly had a "Triumph" style front end. I hit a huge chunk of frozen slush and it kicked my tire out so I got loose, and let the thing swing back and fourth till it stood itself back up, I pulled over and cleaned my pants out... literally... I understand the technique completely, no issue there I have a high level of what they call three dimensional comprehension... I actually see the forces of water and gyros, etc in my head when I design, I used to see how water would work around boat hulls when I drew them and where the drag would be etc... Put it in the computer and it was right, used to talk about it a lot with my engineer bud in Gloucester... Anyway, to countersteering (which I believe in:) It's not a question of belief, It's what is. My only point is I "can" initiate a turn without countersteering by meerely shifting my weight before initiating the turn. Very often it seems like a lean is initiating the turn, but in reality it's the pressure you're putting on the handlebar when you lean. For example, if I don't exert any pressure on the handlebar, I can lean over and pull my pants leg down without making a turn. Have you never done that? Oh, I suppose you could lean enough to change lanes on the highway, but you'd not want to try taking any sharp curves that way. At the same time I also understand that in the emergency situation when you don't have time to set up, the countersteer is the only way to start the turn... You see, I get it, but still like the guy in your vid said... "The countersteer initiates the turn, but the gyro effect immediately corrects it"... The gyro effect immediately brings the bike back up - if the countersteering is stopped - i.e., no more pressure on the handle bar. If the pushing on the bar is continued, the bike will lean more and turn more sharply. or you would really be on the pavement... If you are countersteering through the corner (over riding the natural "steering force" tendency to "correct"), you are sliding the back tire sideways and scrubbing off speed.... Totally wrong. If your speed is too fast for the turn, *then* you may slide the rear tire. The force on the handlebar (the countersteering force) is continued until you are ready to straigten up and come out of the turn. Then the push is relaxed and the bike corrects itself - comes back to the vertical. Sliding at speed is *not* the way to turn corners. I get it but how can you counter steer "through a corner"? None of the bikes in my link have the bars turned away from the radius... The only bikes I know that "counter steer" though a corner are these types of bikes that run on ice and dirt. If you skip to the 1:05 minute mark and watch this corner, you will see motorcycles counter steering "through" a corner. As we determined earlier. The front wheel is turned "away" from the radius of the turn, and the rear tire is sliding in a radius outside the radius of the front tire... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqUnhTpbtSM ... as opposed to these guys who are clearly *not* counter steering "through" a corner... as very clear if you skip to the 2 minute mark and watch the yellow bike on the right of the frame... It's front tire is turned into the radius, and the rear tire is not sliding sideways, but tracking forward in the direction of the turn, ideally slightly inside the radius of the front tire... this bike is "steering" not counter steering... as in the video of the flat trackers above... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjSXehuADx4 Period... You're right. I made all that **** up. Here, listen to someone but me.... http://answers.yahoo.com/question/in...3163009AAapJ8R Firestormer knows what he's talking about. Scooter doesn't have a friggin' clue. I assume you agree with Scooter. Adios. I've just been pulling your leg all this time. There's no such thing as counter steering. Next time you're hitting the tight curves, just take your hands off the bars and lean. Wow, what a ****head... This is countersteering http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3630/...73d18625_o.jpg again, what a ****head... |
countersteering...
On 2/13/2014 5:07 PM, KC wrote:
On 2/13/2014 5:02 PM, Poco Loco wrote: On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 16:37:10 -0500, KC wrote: On 2/13/2014 4:04 PM, Poco Loco wrote: On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 15:29:25 -0500, KC wrote: On 2/13/2014 12:16 PM, Poco Loco wrote: On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 10:20:32 -0500, KC wrote: On 2/13/2014 10:13 AM, KC wrote: On 2/13/2014 8:17 AM, Poco Loco wrote: On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 23:39:23 -0500, KC wrote: On 2/12/2014 11:22 PM, KC wrote: On 2/12/2014 8:13 PM, Poco Loco wrote: On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 19:14:08 -0500, KC wrote: https://www.google.com/search?q=gpx+corner&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=x ev7Upn5IoSMqQGT-IGgBA&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAg&biw=1366&bih=667#q=motorcycl e+corner&tbm=isch nd the rear tire is tracking inside the track of the front tire.. There may be a couple exceptions such as corners that are too sharp for normal tracking... Again, those tracks are made for drifting/countersteering so they will be faster in that mode.. All of 'em. https://www.google.com/search?q=gpx+corner&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=x ev7Upn5IoSMqQGT-IGgBA&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAg&biw=1366&bih=667#q=motorcycl e+corner&tbm=isch Please John, end the madness... Take a second and go to the link above and post a quick link of the motorcycle you see in the first say, half of the page where the front wheel is turned away from the radius and the rear tire is tracking outside the front tire radius... or what you call countersteering. You said all of 'em. Apparently you don't know what countersteering really is.... I've already answered it. They got to where they are by countersteering. They are staying in the turn because they are pushing on the handlebar corresponding to the direction of the turn. Push left, go left. Push right, go right. Here, now you look at something. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivwZ_DEFHrc No question there... I had that save my ass on my CB500 Twin which supposedly had a "Triumph" style front end. I hit a huge chunk of frozen slush and it kicked my tire out so I got loose, and let the thing swing back and fourth till it stood itself back up, I pulled over and cleaned my pants out... literally... I understand the technique completely, no issue there I have a high level of what they call three dimensional comprehension... I actually see the forces of water and gyros, etc in my head when I design, I used to see how water would work around boat hulls when I drew them and where the drag would be etc... Put it in the computer and it was right, used to talk about it a lot with my engineer bud in Gloucester... Anyway, to countersteering (which I believe in:) It's not a question of belief, It's what is. My only point is I "can" initiate a turn without countersteering by meerely shifting my weight before initiating the turn. Very often it seems like a lean is initiating the turn, but in reality it's the pressure you're putting on the handlebar when you lean. For example, if I don't exert any pressure on the handlebar, I can lean over and pull my pants leg down without making a turn. Have you never done that? Oh, I suppose you could lean enough to change lanes on the highway, but you'd not want to try taking any sharp curves that way. At the same time I also understand that in the emergency situation when you don't have time to set up, the countersteer is the only way to start the turn... You see, I get it, but still like the guy in your vid said... "The countersteer initiates the turn, but the gyro effect immediately corrects it"... The gyro effect immediately brings the bike back up - if the countersteering is stopped - i.e., no more pressure on the handle bar. If the pushing on the bar is continued, the bike will lean more and turn more sharply. or you would really be on the pavement... If you are countersteering through the corner (over riding the natural "steering force" tendency to "correct"), you are sliding the back tire sideways and scrubbing off speed.... Totally wrong. If your speed is too fast for the turn, *then* you may slide the rear tire. The force on the handlebar (the countersteering force) is continued until you are ready to straigten up and come out of the turn. Then the push is relaxed and the bike corrects itself - comes back to the vertical. Sliding at speed is *not* the way to turn corners. I get it but how can you counter steer "through a corner"? None of the bikes in my link have the bars turned away from the radius... The only bikes I know that "counter steer" though a corner are these types of bikes that run on ice and dirt. If you skip to the 1:05 minute mark and watch this corner, you will see motorcycles counter steering "through" a corner. As we determined earlier. The front wheel is turned "away" from the radius of the turn, and the rear tire is sliding in a radius outside the radius of the front tire... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqUnhTpbtSM ... as opposed to these guys who are clearly *not* counter steering "through" a corner... as very clear if you skip to the 2 minute mark and watch the yellow bike on the right of the frame... It's front tire is turned into the radius, and the rear tire is not sliding sideways, but tracking forward in the direction of the turn, ideally slightly inside the radius of the front tire... this bike is "steering" not counter steering... as in the video of the flat trackers above... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjSXehuADx4 Period... You're right. I made all that **** up. No John, you are just not letting your emotion and ego, look at the pictures, and listen to the words. You said "through" the corner, I showed you two distinct versions, one steering, one counter steering Take a breath and go look at 1:05 into the first vid, and 2:01 in the second.... Pause them and just frekin' look...... LIke I said, sorry I wasted my time... |
countersteering...
|
countersteering...
On 2/13/2014 5:24 PM, KC wrote:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3630/...73d18625_o.jpg Cause it just hit me... John finally got it so now he's playing a krause on me.... :).. like he was fooling all along... I shoulda' known.. still think it was a ****ed up way to act for a grown man... |
countersteering...
On 2/13/2014 4:37 PM, KC wrote:
On 2/13/2014 4:04 PM, Poco Loco wrote: On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 15:29:25 -0500, KC wrote: On 2/13/2014 12:16 PM, Poco Loco wrote: On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 10:20:32 -0500, KC wrote: On 2/13/2014 10:13 AM, KC wrote: On 2/13/2014 8:17 AM, Poco Loco wrote: On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 23:39:23 -0500, KC wrote: On 2/12/2014 11:22 PM, KC wrote: On 2/12/2014 8:13 PM, Poco Loco wrote: On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 19:14:08 -0500, KC wrote: https://www.google.com/search?q=gpx+corner&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=x ev7Upn5IoSMqQGT-IGgBA&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAg&biw=1366&bih=667#q=motorcycl e+corner&tbm=isch nd the rear tire is tracking inside the track of the front tire.. There may be a couple exceptions such as corners that are too sharp for normal tracking... Again, those tracks are made for drifting/countersteering so they will be faster in that mode.. All of 'em. https://www.google.com/search?q=gpx+corner&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=x ev7Upn5IoSMqQGT-IGgBA&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAg&biw=1366&bih=667#q=motorcycl e+corner&tbm=isch Please John, end the madness... Take a second and go to the link above and post a quick link of the motorcycle you see in the first say, half of the page where the front wheel is turned away from the radius and the rear tire is tracking outside the front tire radius... or what you call countersteering. You said all of 'em. Apparently you don't know what countersteering really is.... I've already answered it. They got to where they are by countersteering. They are staying in the turn because they are pushing on the handlebar corresponding to the direction of the turn. Push left, go left. Push right, go right. Here, now you look at something. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivwZ_DEFHrc No question there... I had that save my ass on my CB500 Twin which supposedly had a "Triumph" style front end. I hit a huge chunk of frozen slush and it kicked my tire out so I got loose, and let the thing swing back and fourth till it stood itself back up, I pulled over and cleaned my pants out... literally... I understand the technique completely, no issue there I have a high level of what they call three dimensional comprehension... I actually see the forces of water and gyros, etc in my head when I design, I used to see how water would work around boat hulls when I drew them and where the drag would be etc... Put it in the computer and it was right, used to talk about it a lot with my engineer bud in Gloucester... Anyway, to countersteering (which I believe in:) It's not a question of belief, It's what is. My only point is I "can" initiate a turn without countersteering by meerely shifting my weight before initiating the turn. Very often it seems like a lean is initiating the turn, but in reality it's the pressure you're putting on the handlebar when you lean. For example, if I don't exert any pressure on the handlebar, I can lean over and pull my pants leg down without making a turn. Have you never done that? Oh, I suppose you could lean enough to change lanes on the highway, but you'd not want to try taking any sharp curves that way. At the same time I also understand that in the emergency situation when you don't have time to set up, the countersteer is the only way to start the turn... You see, I get it, but still like the guy in your vid said... "The countersteer initiates the turn, but the gyro effect immediately corrects it"... The gyro effect immediately brings the bike back up - if the countersteering is stopped - i.e., no more pressure on the handle bar. If the pushing on the bar is continued, the bike will lean more and turn more sharply. or you would really be on the pavement... If you are countersteering through the corner (over riding the natural "steering force" tendency to "correct"), you are sliding the back tire sideways and scrubbing off speed.... Totally wrong. If your speed is too fast for the turn, *then* you may slide the rear tire. The force on the handlebar (the countersteering force) is continued until you are ready to straigten up and come out of the turn. Then the push is relaxed and the bike corrects itself - comes back to the vertical. Sliding at speed is *not* the way to turn corners. I get it but how can you counter steer "through a corner"? None of the bikes in my link have the bars turned away from the radius... The only bikes I know that "counter steer" though a corner are these types of bikes that run on ice and dirt. If you skip to the 1:05 minute mark and watch this corner, you will see motorcycles counter steering "through" a corner. As we determined earlier. The front wheel is turned "away" from the radius of the turn, and the rear tire is sliding in a radius outside the radius of the front tire... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqUnhTpbtSM ... as opposed to these guys who are clearly *not* counter steering "through" a corner... as very clear if you skip to the 2 minute mark and watch the yellow bike on the right of the frame... It's front tire is turned into the radius, and the rear tire is not sliding sideways, but tracking forward in the direction of the turn, ideally slightly inside the radius of the front tire... this bike is "steering" not counter steering... as in the video of the flat trackers above... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjSXehuADx4 Period... Scott, I think you are over emphasizing "counter steering" or the amount of pressure required to counter steer. For most riders, especially street bike riders, it happens almost naturally without even thinking about it. Here's why: The principle is based in physics and is known as *Gyroscopic Precession* It basically means that a spinning mass (like a motorcycle wheel) generates a force equal to it's mass x velocity squared that is 90 degrees to gravitational forces. In the case of a motorcycle or bicycle this force is transmitted to the axle ... again, 90 degrees in direction relative to gravitational forces. At speed, you could snap one of the forks off your bike and it would still want to stay upright and going straight ... until you slowed down of course and the forces generated by gyroscopic precession aren't enough to overcome gravity's desire to throw you and the bike on it's side. In the case of a motorcycle or even a bicycle, that force is much, much greater than the weight of you leaning over to one side, which is why, as John said, at speed you could lean over and tie your shoe and the bike will still keep going straight. At speed a gyroscope (or motorcycle) requires an additional force to cause it to change it's axis of rotation (like making a turn or cornering). That force is supplied by counter steering. On a street bike cruising down the road and going around a corner the amount of counter steer is just about in-perceptual to the rider, but has to occur. Otherwise the bike would keep going straight. |
countersteering...
On 2/13/2014 5:07 PM, KC wrote:
On 2/13/2014 5:02 PM, Poco Loco wrote: On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 16:37:10 -0500, KC wrote: On 2/13/2014 4:04 PM, Poco Loco wrote: On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 15:29:25 -0500, KC wrote: On 2/13/2014 12:16 PM, Poco Loco wrote: On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 10:20:32 -0500, KC wrote: On 2/13/2014 10:13 AM, KC wrote: On 2/13/2014 8:17 AM, Poco Loco wrote: On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 23:39:23 -0500, KC wrote: On 2/12/2014 11:22 PM, KC wrote: On 2/12/2014 8:13 PM, Poco Loco wrote: On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 19:14:08 -0500, KC wrote: https://www.google.com/search?q=gpx+corner&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=x ev7Upn5IoSMqQGT-IGgBA&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAg&biw=1366&bih=667#q=motorcycl e+corner&tbm=isch nd the rear tire is tracking inside the track of the front tire.. There may be a couple exceptions such as corners that are too sharp for normal tracking... Again, those tracks are made for drifting/countersteering so they will be faster in that mode.. All of 'em. https://www.google.com/search?q=gpx+corner&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=x ev7Upn5IoSMqQGT-IGgBA&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAg&biw=1366&bih=667#q=motorcycl e+corner&tbm=isch Please John, end the madness... Take a second and go to the link above and post a quick link of the motorcycle you see in the first say, half of the page where the front wheel is turned away from the radius and the rear tire is tracking outside the front tire radius... or what you call countersteering. You said all of 'em. Apparently you don't know what countersteering really is.... I've already answered it. They got to where they are by countersteering. They are staying in the turn because they are pushing on the handlebar corresponding to the direction of the turn. Push left, go left. Push right, go right. Here, now you look at something. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivwZ_DEFHrc No question there... I had that save my ass on my CB500 Twin which supposedly had a "Triumph" style front end. I hit a huge chunk of frozen slush and it kicked my tire out so I got loose, and let the thing swing back and fourth till it stood itself back up, I pulled over and cleaned my pants out... literally... I understand the technique completely, no issue there I have a high level of what they call three dimensional comprehension... I actually see the forces of water and gyros, etc in my head when I design, I used to see how water would work around boat hulls when I drew them and where the drag would be etc... Put it in the computer and it was right, used to talk about it a lot with my engineer bud in Gloucester... Anyway, to countersteering (which I believe in:) It's not a question of belief, It's what is. My only point is I "can" initiate a turn without countersteering by meerely shifting my weight before initiating the turn. Very often it seems like a lean is initiating the turn, but in reality it's the pressure you're putting on the handlebar when you lean. For example, if I don't exert any pressure on the handlebar, I can lean over and pull my pants leg down without making a turn. Have you never done that? Oh, I suppose you could lean enough to change lanes on the highway, but you'd not want to try taking any sharp curves that way. At the same time I also understand that in the emergency situation when you don't have time to set up, the countersteer is the only way to start the turn... You see, I get it, but still like the guy in your vid said... "The countersteer initiates the turn, but the gyro effect immediately corrects it"... The gyro effect immediately brings the bike back up - if the countersteering is stopped - i.e., no more pressure on the handle bar. If the pushing on the bar is continued, the bike will lean more and turn more sharply. or you would really be on the pavement... If you are countersteering through the corner (over riding the natural "steering force" tendency to "correct"), you are sliding the back tire sideways and scrubbing off speed.... Totally wrong. If your speed is too fast for the turn, *then* you may slide the rear tire. The force on the handlebar (the countersteering force) is continued until you are ready to straigten up and come out of the turn. Then the push is relaxed and the bike corrects itself - comes back to the vertical. Sliding at speed is *not* the way to turn corners. I get it but how can you counter steer "through a corner"? None of the bikes in my link have the bars turned away from the radius... The only bikes I know that "counter steer" though a corner are these types of bikes that run on ice and dirt. If you skip to the 1:05 minute mark and watch this corner, you will see motorcycles counter steering "through" a corner. As we determined earlier. The front wheel is turned "away" from the radius of the turn, and the rear tire is sliding in a radius outside the radius of the front tire... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqUnhTpbtSM ... as opposed to these guys who are clearly *not* counter steering "through" a corner... as very clear if you skip to the 2 minute mark and watch the yellow bike on the right of the frame... It's front tire is turned into the radius, and the rear tire is not sliding sideways, but tracking forward in the direction of the turn, ideally slightly inside the radius of the front tire... this bike is "steering" not counter steering... as in the video of the flat trackers above... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjSXehuADx4 Period... You're right. I made all that **** up. No John, you are just not letting your emotion and ego, look at the pictures, and listen to the words. You said "through" the corner, I showed you two distinct versions, one steering, one counter steering Take a breath and go look at 1:05 into the first vid, and 2:01 in the second.... Pause them and just frekin' look...... Friendly suggestion. You might want to hold off on your condemnations until you read and think about this a little more. |
countersteering...
On 2/13/2014 5:16 PM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 17:10:43 -0500, KC wrote: On 2/13/2014 5:02 PM, Poco Loco wrote: On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 16:37:10 -0500, KC wrote: On 2/13/2014 4:04 PM, Poco Loco wrote: On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 15:29:25 -0500, KC wrote: On 2/13/2014 12:16 PM, Poco Loco wrote: On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 10:20:32 -0500, KC wrote: On 2/13/2014 10:13 AM, KC wrote: On 2/13/2014 8:17 AM, Poco Loco wrote: On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 23:39:23 -0500, KC wrote: On 2/12/2014 11:22 PM, KC wrote: On 2/12/2014 8:13 PM, Poco Loco wrote: On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 19:14:08 -0500, KC wrote: https://www.google.com/search?q=gpx+corner&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=x ev7Upn5IoSMqQGT-IGgBA&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAg&biw=1366&bih=667#q=motorcycl e+corner&tbm=isch nd the rear tire is tracking inside the track of the front tire.. There may be a couple exceptions such as corners that are too sharp for normal tracking... Again, those tracks are made for drifting/countersteering so they will be faster in that mode.. All of 'em. https://www.google.com/search?q=gpx+corner&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=x ev7Upn5IoSMqQGT-IGgBA&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAg&biw=1366&bih=667#q=motorcycl e+corner&tbm=isch Please John, end the madness... Take a second and go to the link above and post a quick link of the motorcycle you see in the first say, half of the page where the front wheel is turned away from the radius and the rear tire is tracking outside the front tire radius... or what you call countersteering. You said all of 'em. Apparently you don't know what countersteering really is.... I've already answered it. They got to where they are by countersteering. They are staying in the turn because they are pushing on the handlebar corresponding to the direction of the turn. Push left, go left. Push right, go right. Here, now you look at something. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivwZ_DEFHrc No question there... I had that save my ass on my CB500 Twin which supposedly had a "Triumph" style front end. I hit a huge chunk of frozen slush and it kicked my tire out so I got loose, and let the thing swing back and fourth till it stood itself back up, I pulled over and cleaned my pants out... literally... I understand the technique completely, no issue there I have a high level of what they call three dimensional comprehension... I actually see the forces of water and gyros, etc in my head when I design, I used to see how water would work around boat hulls when I drew them and where the drag would be etc... Put it in the computer and it was right, used to talk about it a lot with my engineer bud in Gloucester... Anyway, to countersteering (which I believe in:) It's not a question of belief, It's what is. My only point is I "can" initiate a turn without countersteering by meerely shifting my weight before initiating the turn. Very often it seems like a lean is initiating the turn, but in reality it's the pressure you're putting on the handlebar when you lean. For example, if I don't exert any pressure on the handlebar, I can lean over and pull my pants leg down without making a turn. Have you never done that? Oh, I suppose you could lean enough to change lanes on the highway, but you'd not want to try taking any sharp curves that way. At the same time I also understand that in the emergency situation when you don't have time to set up, the countersteer is the only way to start the turn... You see, I get it, but still like the guy in your vid said... "The countersteer initiates the turn, but the gyro effect immediately corrects it"... The gyro effect immediately brings the bike back up - if the countersteering is stopped - i.e., no more pressure on the handle bar. If the pushing on the bar is continued, the bike will lean more and turn more sharply. or you would really be on the pavement... If you are countersteering through the corner (over riding the natural "steering force" tendency to "correct"), you are sliding the back tire sideways and scrubbing off speed.... Totally wrong. If your speed is too fast for the turn, *then* you may slide the rear tire. The force on the handlebar (the countersteering force) is continued until you are ready to straigten up and come out of the turn. Then the push is relaxed and the bike corrects itself - comes back to the vertical. Sliding at speed is *not* the way to turn corners. I get it but how can you counter steer "through a corner"? None of the bikes in my link have the bars turned away from the radius... The only bikes I know that "counter steer" though a corner are these types of bikes that run on ice and dirt. If you skip to the 1:05 minute mark and watch this corner, you will see motorcycles counter steering "through" a corner. As we determined earlier. The front wheel is turned "away" from the radius of the turn, and the rear tire is sliding in a radius outside the radius of the front tire... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqUnhTpbtSM ... as opposed to these guys who are clearly *not* counter steering "through" a corner... as very clear if you skip to the 2 minute mark and watch the yellow bike on the right of the frame... It's front tire is turned into the radius, and the rear tire is not sliding sideways, but tracking forward in the direction of the turn, ideally slightly inside the radius of the front tire... this bike is "steering" not counter steering... as in the video of the flat trackers above... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjSXehuADx4 Period... You're right. I made all that **** up. Here, listen to someone but me.... http://answers.yahoo.com/question/in...3163009AAapJ8R Firestormer knows what he's talking about. Scooter doesn't have a friggin' clue. I assume you agree with Scooter. Adios. I've just been pulling your leg all this time. There's no such thing as counter steering. Next time you're hitting the tight curves, just take your hands off the bars and lean. LOL He'll go off the road at a slight angle, but still going straight ahead. |
countersteering...
On 2/13/2014 5:22 PM, KC wrote:
On 2/13/2014 5:16 PM, Poco Loco wrote: On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 17:10:43 -0500, KC wrote: On 2/13/2014 5:02 PM, Poco Loco wrote: On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 16:37:10 -0500, KC wrote: On 2/13/2014 4:04 PM, Poco Loco wrote: On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 15:29:25 -0500, KC wrote: On 2/13/2014 12:16 PM, Poco Loco wrote: On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 10:20:32 -0500, KC wrote: On 2/13/2014 10:13 AM, KC wrote: On 2/13/2014 8:17 AM, Poco Loco wrote: On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 23:39:23 -0500, KC wrote: On 2/12/2014 11:22 PM, KC wrote: On 2/12/2014 8:13 PM, Poco Loco wrote: On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 19:14:08 -0500, KC wrote: https://www.google.com/search?q=gpx+corner&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=x ev7Upn5IoSMqQGT-IGgBA&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAg&biw=1366&bih=667#q=motorcycl e+corner&tbm=isch nd the rear tire is tracking inside the track of the front tire.. There may be a couple exceptions such as corners that are too sharp for normal tracking... Again, those tracks are made for drifting/countersteering so they will be faster in that mode.. All of 'em. https://www.google.com/search?q=gpx+corner&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=x ev7Upn5IoSMqQGT-IGgBA&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAg&biw=1366&bih=667#q=motorcycl e+corner&tbm=isch Please John, end the madness... Take a second and go to the link above and post a quick link of the motorcycle you see in the first say, half of the page where the front wheel is turned away from the radius and the rear tire is tracking outside the front tire radius... or what you call countersteering. You said all of 'em. Apparently you don't know what countersteering really is.... I've already answered it. They got to where they are by countersteering. They are staying in the turn because they are pushing on the handlebar corresponding to the direction of the turn. Push left, go left. Push right, go right. Here, now you look at something. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivwZ_DEFHrc No question there... I had that save my ass on my CB500 Twin which supposedly had a "Triumph" style front end. I hit a huge chunk of frozen slush and it kicked my tire out so I got loose, and let the thing swing back and fourth till it stood itself back up, I pulled over and cleaned my pants out... literally... I understand the technique completely, no issue there I have a high level of what they call three dimensional comprehension... I actually see the forces of water and gyros, etc in my head when I design, I used to see how water would work around boat hulls when I drew them and where the drag would be etc... Put it in the computer and it was right, used to talk about it a lot with my engineer bud in Gloucester... Anyway, to countersteering (which I believe in:) It's not a question of belief, It's what is. My only point is I "can" initiate a turn without countersteering by meerely shifting my weight before initiating the turn. Very often it seems like a lean is initiating the turn, but in reality it's the pressure you're putting on the handlebar when you lean. For example, if I don't exert any pressure on the handlebar, I can lean over and pull my pants leg down without making a turn. Have you never done that? Oh, I suppose you could lean enough to change lanes on the highway, but you'd not want to try taking any sharp curves that way. At the same time I also understand that in the emergency situation when you don't have time to set up, the countersteer is the only way to start the turn... You see, I get it, but still like the guy in your vid said... "The countersteer initiates the turn, but the gyro effect immediately corrects it"... The gyro effect immediately brings the bike back up - if the countersteering is stopped - i.e., no more pressure on the handle bar. If the pushing on the bar is continued, the bike will lean more and turn more sharply. or you would really be on the pavement... If you are countersteering through the corner (over riding the natural "steering force" tendency to "correct"), you are sliding the back tire sideways and scrubbing off speed.... Totally wrong. If your speed is too fast for the turn, *then* you may slide the rear tire. The force on the handlebar (the countersteering force) is continued until you are ready to straigten up and come out of the turn. Then the push is relaxed and the bike corrects itself - comes back to the vertical. Sliding at speed is *not* the way to turn corners. I get it but how can you counter steer "through a corner"? None of the bikes in my link have the bars turned away from the radius... The only bikes I know that "counter steer" though a corner are these types of bikes that run on ice and dirt. If you skip to the 1:05 minute mark and watch this corner, you will see motorcycles counter steering "through" a corner. As we determined earlier. The front wheel is turned "away" from the radius of the turn, and the rear tire is sliding in a radius outside the radius of the front tire... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqUnhTpbtSM ... as opposed to these guys who are clearly *not* counter steering "through" a corner... as very clear if you skip to the 2 minute mark and watch the yellow bike on the right of the frame... It's front tire is turned into the radius, and the rear tire is not sliding sideways, but tracking forward in the direction of the turn, ideally slightly inside the radius of the front tire... this bike is "steering" not counter steering... as in the video of the flat trackers above... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjSXehuADx4 Period... You're right. I made all that **** up. Here, listen to someone but me.... http://answers.yahoo.com/question/in...3163009AAapJ8R Firestormer knows what he's talking about. Scooter doesn't have a friggin' clue. I assume you agree with Scooter. Adios. I've just been pulling your leg all this time. There's no such thing as counter steering. Next time you're hitting the tight curves, just take your hands off the bars and lean. Wow, what a ****head... This is countersteering http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3630/...73d18625_o.jpg again, what a ****head... I think that's called "steering in the direction of the slide". :-) You do that in cars too. |
countersteering...
On 2/13/2014 5:07 PM, KC wrote:
On 2/13/2014 5:02 PM, Poco Loco wrote: On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 16:37:10 -0500, KC wrote: On 2/13/2014 4:04 PM, Poco Loco wrote: On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 15:29:25 -0500, KC wrote: On 2/13/2014 12:16 PM, Poco Loco wrote: On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 10:20:32 -0500, KC wrote: On 2/13/2014 10:13 AM, KC wrote: On 2/13/2014 8:17 AM, Poco Loco wrote: On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 23:39:23 -0500, KC wrote: On 2/12/2014 11:22 PM, KC wrote: On 2/12/2014 8:13 PM, Poco Loco wrote: On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 19:14:08 -0500, KC wrote: https://www.google.com/search?q=gpx+corner&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=x ev7Upn5IoSMqQGT-IGgBA&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAg&biw=1366&bih=667#q=motorcycl e+corner&tbm=isch nd the rear tire is tracking inside the track of the front tire.. There may be a couple exceptions such as corners that are too sharp for normal tracking... Again, those tracks are made for drifting/countersteering so they will be faster in that mode.. All of 'em. https://www.google.com/search?q=gpx+corner&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=x ev7Upn5IoSMqQGT-IGgBA&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAg&biw=1366&bih=667#q=motorcycl e+corner&tbm=isch Please John, end the madness... Take a second and go to the link above and post a quick link of the motorcycle you see in the first say, half of the page where the front wheel is turned away from the radius and the rear tire is tracking outside the front tire radius... or what you call countersteering. You said all of 'em. Apparently you don't know what countersteering really is.... I've already answered it. They got to where they are by countersteering. They are staying in the turn because they are pushing on the handlebar corresponding to the direction of the turn. Push left, go left. Push right, go right. Here, now you look at something. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivwZ_DEFHrc No question there... I had that save my ass on my CB500 Twin which supposedly had a "Triumph" style front end. I hit a huge chunk of frozen slush and it kicked my tire out so I got loose, and let the thing swing back and fourth till it stood itself back up, I pulled over and cleaned my pants out... literally... I understand the technique completely, no issue there I have a high level of what they call three dimensional comprehension... I actually see the forces of water and gyros, etc in my head when I design, I used to see how water would work around boat hulls when I drew them and where the drag would be etc... Put it in the computer and it was right, used to talk about it a lot with my engineer bud in Gloucester... Anyway, to countersteering (which I believe in:) It's not a question of belief, It's what is. My only point is I "can" initiate a turn without countersteering by meerely shifting my weight before initiating the turn. Very often it seems like a lean is initiating the turn, but in reality it's the pressure you're putting on the handlebar when you lean. For example, if I don't exert any pressure on the handlebar, I can lean over and pull my pants leg down without making a turn. Have you never done that? Oh, I suppose you could lean enough to change lanes on the highway, but you'd not want to try taking any sharp curves that way. At the same time I also understand that in the emergency situation when you don't have time to set up, the countersteer is the only way to start the turn... You see, I get it, but still like the guy in your vid said... "The countersteer initiates the turn, but the gyro effect immediately corrects it"... The gyro effect immediately brings the bike back up - if the countersteering is stopped - i.e., no more pressure on the handle bar. If the pushing on the bar is continued, the bike will lean more and turn more sharply. or you would really be on the pavement... If you are countersteering through the corner (over riding the natural "steering force" tendency to "correct"), you are sliding the back tire sideways and scrubbing off speed.... Totally wrong. If your speed is too fast for the turn, *then* you may slide the rear tire. The force on the handlebar (the countersteering force) is continued until you are ready to straigten up and come out of the turn. Then the push is relaxed and the bike corrects itself - comes back to the vertical. Sliding at speed is *not* the way to turn corners. I get it but how can you counter steer "through a corner"? None of the bikes in my link have the bars turned away from the radius... The only bikes I know that "counter steer" though a corner are these types of bikes that run on ice and dirt. If you skip to the 1:05 minute mark and watch this corner, you will see motorcycles counter steering "through" a corner. As we determined earlier. The front wheel is turned "away" from the radius of the turn, and the rear tire is sliding in a radius outside the radius of the front tire... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqUnhTpbtSM ... as opposed to these guys who are clearly *not* counter steering "through" a corner... as very clear if you skip to the 2 minute mark and watch the yellow bike on the right of the frame... It's front tire is turned into the radius, and the rear tire is not sliding sideways, but tracking forward in the direction of the turn, ideally slightly inside the radius of the front tire... this bike is "steering" not counter steering... as in the video of the flat trackers above... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjSXehuADx4 Period... You're right. I made all that **** up. No John, you are just not letting your emotion and ego, look at the pictures, and listen to the words. You said "through" the corner, I showed you two distinct versions, one steering, one counter steering Take a breath and go look at 1:05 into the first vid, and 2:01 in the second.... Pause them and just frekin' look...... Scott: For your viewing pleasu http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvPAjr_a6Jg |
countersteering...
On 2/13/2014 6:08 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/13/2014 4:37 PM, KC wrote: On 2/13/2014 4:04 PM, Poco Loco wrote: On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 15:29:25 -0500, KC wrote: On 2/13/2014 12:16 PM, Poco Loco wrote: On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 10:20:32 -0500, KC wrote: On 2/13/2014 10:13 AM, KC wrote: On 2/13/2014 8:17 AM, Poco Loco wrote: On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 23:39:23 -0500, KC wrote: On 2/12/2014 11:22 PM, KC wrote: On 2/12/2014 8:13 PM, Poco Loco wrote: On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 19:14:08 -0500, KC wrote: https://www.google.com/search?q=gpx+corner&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=x ev7Upn5IoSMqQGT-IGgBA&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAg&biw=1366&bih=667#q=motorcycl e+corner&tbm=isch nd the rear tire is tracking inside the track of the front tire.. There may be a couple exceptions such as corners that are too sharp for normal tracking... Again, those tracks are made for drifting/countersteering so they will be faster in that mode.. All of 'em. https://www.google.com/search?q=gpx+corner&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=x ev7Upn5IoSMqQGT-IGgBA&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAg&biw=1366&bih=667#q=motorcycl e+corner&tbm=isch Please John, end the madness... Take a second and go to the link above and post a quick link of the motorcycle you see in the first say, half of the page where the front wheel is turned away from the radius and the rear tire is tracking outside the front tire radius... or what you call countersteering. You said all of 'em. Apparently you don't know what countersteering really is.... I've already answered it. They got to where they are by countersteering. They are staying in the turn because they are pushing on the handlebar corresponding to the direction of the turn. Push left, go left. Push right, go right. Here, now you look at something. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivwZ_DEFHrc No question there... I had that save my ass on my CB500 Twin which supposedly had a "Triumph" style front end. I hit a huge chunk of frozen slush and it kicked my tire out so I got loose, and let the thing swing back and fourth till it stood itself back up, I pulled over and cleaned my pants out... literally... I understand the technique completely, no issue there I have a high level of what they call three dimensional comprehension... I actually see the forces of water and gyros, etc in my head when I design, I used to see how water would work around boat hulls when I drew them and where the drag would be etc... Put it in the computer and it was right, used to talk about it a lot with my engineer bud in Gloucester... Anyway, to countersteering (which I believe in:) It's not a question of belief, It's what is. My only point is I "can" initiate a turn without countersteering by meerely shifting my weight before initiating the turn. Very often it seems like a lean is initiating the turn, but in reality it's the pressure you're putting on the handlebar when you lean. For example, if I don't exert any pressure on the handlebar, I can lean over and pull my pants leg down without making a turn. Have you never done that? Oh, I suppose you could lean enough to change lanes on the highway, but you'd not want to try taking any sharp curves that way. At the same time I also understand that in the emergency situation when you don't have time to set up, the countersteer is the only way to start the turn... You see, I get it, but still like the guy in your vid said... "The countersteer initiates the turn, but the gyro effect immediately corrects it"... The gyro effect immediately brings the bike back up - if the countersteering is stopped - i.e., no more pressure on the handle bar. If the pushing on the bar is continued, the bike will lean more and turn more sharply. or you would really be on the pavement... If you are countersteering through the corner (over riding the natural "steering force" tendency to "correct"), you are sliding the back tire sideways and scrubbing off speed.... Totally wrong. If your speed is too fast for the turn, *then* you may slide the rear tire. The force on the handlebar (the countersteering force) is continued until you are ready to straigten up and come out of the turn. Then the push is relaxed and the bike corrects itself - comes back to the vertical. Sliding at speed is *not* the way to turn corners. I get it but how can you counter steer "through a corner"? None of the bikes in my link have the bars turned away from the radius... The only bikes I know that "counter steer" though a corner are these types of bikes that run on ice and dirt. If you skip to the 1:05 minute mark and watch this corner, you will see motorcycles counter steering "through" a corner. As we determined earlier. The front wheel is turned "away" from the radius of the turn, and the rear tire is sliding in a radius outside the radius of the front tire... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqUnhTpbtSM ... as opposed to these guys who are clearly *not* counter steering "through" a corner... as very clear if you skip to the 2 minute mark and watch the yellow bike on the right of the frame... It's front tire is turned into the radius, and the rear tire is not sliding sideways, but tracking forward in the direction of the turn, ideally slightly inside the radius of the front tire... this bike is "steering" not counter steering... as in the video of the flat trackers above... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjSXehuADx4 Period... Scott, I think you are over emphasizing "counter steering" or the amount of pressure required to counter steer. For most riders, especially street bike riders, it happens almost naturally without even thinking about it. Here's why: The principle is based in physics and is known as *Gyroscopic Precession* It basically means that a spinning mass (like a motorcycle wheel) generates a force equal to it's mass x velocity squared that is 90 degrees to gravitational forces. In the case of a motorcycle or bicycle this force is transmitted to the axle ... again, 90 degrees in direction relative to gravitational forces. At speed, you could snap one of the forks off your bike and it would still want to stay upright and going straight ... until you slowed down of course and the forces generated by gyroscopic precession aren't enough to overcome gravity's desire to throw you and the bike on it's side. In the case of a motorcycle or even a bicycle, that force is much, much greater than the weight of you leaning over to one side, which is why, as John said, at speed you could lean over and tie your shoe and the bike will still keep going straight. At speed a gyroscope (or motorcycle) requires an additional force to cause it to change it's axis of rotation (like making a turn or cornering). That force is supplied by counter steering. On a street bike cruising down the road and going around a corner the amount of counter steer is just about in-perceptual to the rider, but has to occur. Otherwise the bike would keep going straight. I already stipulated to all of that long ago... John said you are countersteering "through" the corner... it's different than what we were talking about....Me and you were on the same page from the beginning, just didn't communicate it correctly... |
countersteering...
On 2/13/2014 6:11 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/13/2014 5:07 PM, KC wrote: On 2/13/2014 5:02 PM, Poco Loco wrote: On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 16:37:10 -0500, KC wrote: On 2/13/2014 4:04 PM, Poco Loco wrote: On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 15:29:25 -0500, KC wrote: On 2/13/2014 12:16 PM, Poco Loco wrote: On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 10:20:32 -0500, KC wrote: On 2/13/2014 10:13 AM, KC wrote: On 2/13/2014 8:17 AM, Poco Loco wrote: On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 23:39:23 -0500, KC wrote: On 2/12/2014 11:22 PM, KC wrote: On 2/12/2014 8:13 PM, Poco Loco wrote: On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 19:14:08 -0500, KC wrote: https://www.google.com/search?q=gpx+corner&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=x ev7Upn5IoSMqQGT-IGgBA&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAg&biw=1366&bih=667#q=motorcycl e+corner&tbm=isch nd the rear tire is tracking inside the track of the front tire.. There may be a couple exceptions such as corners that are too sharp for normal tracking... Again, those tracks are made for drifting/countersteering so they will be faster in that mode.. All of 'em. https://www.google.com/search?q=gpx+corner&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=x ev7Upn5IoSMqQGT-IGgBA&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAg&biw=1366&bih=667#q=motorcycl e+corner&tbm=isch Please John, end the madness... Take a second and go to the link above and post a quick link of the motorcycle you see in the first say, half of the page where the front wheel is turned away from the radius and the rear tire is tracking outside the front tire radius... or what you call countersteering. You said all of 'em. Apparently you don't know what countersteering really is.... I've already answered it. They got to where they are by countersteering. They are staying in the turn because they are pushing on the handlebar corresponding to the direction of the turn. Push left, go left. Push right, go right. Here, now you look at something. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivwZ_DEFHrc No question there... I had that save my ass on my CB500 Twin which supposedly had a "Triumph" style front end. I hit a huge chunk of frozen slush and it kicked my tire out so I got loose, and let the thing swing back and fourth till it stood itself back up, I pulled over and cleaned my pants out... literally... I understand the technique completely, no issue there I have a high level of what they call three dimensional comprehension... I actually see the forces of water and gyros, etc in my head when I design, I used to see how water would work around boat hulls when I drew them and where the drag would be etc... Put it in the computer and it was right, used to talk about it a lot with my engineer bud in Gloucester... Anyway, to countersteering (which I believe in:) It's not a question of belief, It's what is. My only point is I "can" initiate a turn without countersteering by meerely shifting my weight before initiating the turn. Very often it seems like a lean is initiating the turn, but in reality it's the pressure you're putting on the handlebar when you lean. For example, if I don't exert any pressure on the handlebar, I can lean over and pull my pants leg down without making a turn. Have you never done that? Oh, I suppose you could lean enough to change lanes on the highway, but you'd not want to try taking any sharp curves that way. At the same time I also understand that in the emergency situation when you don't have time to set up, the countersteer is the only way to start the turn... You see, I get it, but still like the guy in your vid said... "The countersteer initiates the turn, but the gyro effect immediately corrects it"... The gyro effect immediately brings the bike back up - if the countersteering is stopped - i.e., no more pressure on the handle bar. If the pushing on the bar is continued, the bike will lean more and turn more sharply. or you would really be on the pavement... If you are countersteering through the corner (over riding the natural "steering force" tendency to "correct"), you are sliding the back tire sideways and scrubbing off speed.... Totally wrong. If your speed is too fast for the turn, *then* you may slide the rear tire. The force on the handlebar (the countersteering force) is continued until you are ready to straigten up and come out of the turn. Then the push is relaxed and the bike corrects itself - comes back to the vertical. Sliding at speed is *not* the way to turn corners. I get it but how can you counter steer "through a corner"? None of the bikes in my link have the bars turned away from the radius... The only bikes I know that "counter steer" though a corner are these types of bikes that run on ice and dirt. If you skip to the 1:05 minute mark and watch this corner, you will see motorcycles counter steering "through" a corner. As we determined earlier. The front wheel is turned "away" from the radius of the turn, and the rear tire is sliding in a radius outside the radius of the front tire... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqUnhTpbtSM ... as opposed to these guys who are clearly *not* counter steering "through" a corner... as very clear if you skip to the 2 minute mark and watch the yellow bike on the right of the frame... It's front tire is turned into the radius, and the rear tire is not sliding sideways, but tracking forward in the direction of the turn, ideally slightly inside the radius of the front tire... this bike is "steering" not counter steering... as in the video of the flat trackers above... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjSXehuADx4 Period... You're right. I made all that **** up. No John, you are just not letting your emotion and ego, look at the pictures, and listen to the words. You said "through" the corner, I showed you two distinct versions, one steering, one counter steering Take a breath and go look at 1:05 into the first vid, and 2:01 in the second.... Pause them and just frekin' look...... Friendly suggestion. You might want to hold off on your condemnations until you read and think about this a little more. Dick, it's pretty simple. You were talking about starting a turn, and we miscommunicated but we are both on the same page there.... John said something totally different, said they are countersteering "through" that's THROUGH the corner, which is what I was saying was incorrect.... |
countersteering...
On 2/13/2014 6:13 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/13/2014 5:16 PM, Poco Loco wrote: On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 17:10:43 -0500, KC wrote: On 2/13/2014 5:02 PM, Poco Loco wrote: On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 16:37:10 -0500, KC wrote: On 2/13/2014 4:04 PM, Poco Loco wrote: On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 15:29:25 -0500, KC wrote: On 2/13/2014 12:16 PM, Poco Loco wrote: On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 10:20:32 -0500, KC wrote: On 2/13/2014 10:13 AM, KC wrote: On 2/13/2014 8:17 AM, Poco Loco wrote: On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 23:39:23 -0500, KC wrote: On 2/12/2014 11:22 PM, KC wrote: On 2/12/2014 8:13 PM, Poco Loco wrote: On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 19:14:08 -0500, KC wrote: https://www.google.com/search?q=gpx+corner&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=x ev7Upn5IoSMqQGT-IGgBA&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAg&biw=1366&bih=667#q=motorcycl e+corner&tbm=isch nd the rear tire is tracking inside the track of the front tire.. There may be a couple exceptions such as corners that are too sharp for normal tracking... Again, those tracks are made for drifting/countersteering so they will be faster in that mode.. All of 'em. https://www.google.com/search?q=gpx+corner&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=x ev7Upn5IoSMqQGT-IGgBA&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAg&biw=1366&bih=667#q=motorcycl e+corner&tbm=isch Please John, end the madness... Take a second and go to the link above and post a quick link of the motorcycle you see in the first say, half of the page where the front wheel is turned away from the radius and the rear tire is tracking outside the front tire radius... or what you call countersteering. You said all of 'em. Apparently you don't know what countersteering really is.... I've already answered it. They got to where they are by countersteering. They are staying in the turn because they are pushing on the handlebar corresponding to the direction of the turn. Push left, go left. Push right, go right. Here, now you look at something. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivwZ_DEFHrc No question there... I had that save my ass on my CB500 Twin which supposedly had a "Triumph" style front end. I hit a huge chunk of frozen slush and it kicked my tire out so I got loose, and let the thing swing back and fourth till it stood itself back up, I pulled over and cleaned my pants out... literally... I understand the technique completely, no issue there I have a high level of what they call three dimensional comprehension... I actually see the forces of water and gyros, etc in my head when I design, I used to see how water would work around boat hulls when I drew them and where the drag would be etc... Put it in the computer and it was right, used to talk about it a lot with my engineer bud in Gloucester... Anyway, to countersteering (which I believe in:) It's not a question of belief, It's what is. My only point is I "can" initiate a turn without countersteering by meerely shifting my weight before initiating the turn. Very often it seems like a lean is initiating the turn, but in reality it's the pressure you're putting on the handlebar when you lean. For example, if I don't exert any pressure on the handlebar, I can lean over and pull my pants leg down without making a turn. Have you never done that? Oh, I suppose you could lean enough to change lanes on the highway, but you'd not want to try taking any sharp curves that way. At the same time I also understand that in the emergency situation when you don't have time to set up, the countersteer is the only way to start the turn... You see, I get it, but still like the guy in your vid said... "The countersteer initiates the turn, but the gyro effect immediately corrects it"... The gyro effect immediately brings the bike back up - if the countersteering is stopped - i.e., no more pressure on the handle bar. If the pushing on the bar is continued, the bike will lean more and turn more sharply. or you would really be on the pavement... If you are countersteering through the corner (over riding the natural "steering force" tendency to "correct"), you are sliding the back tire sideways and scrubbing off speed.... Totally wrong. If your speed is too fast for the turn, *then* you may slide the rear tire. The force on the handlebar (the countersteering force) is continued until you are ready to straigten up and come out of the turn. Then the push is relaxed and the bike corrects itself - comes back to the vertical. Sliding at speed is *not* the way to turn corners. I get it but how can you counter steer "through a corner"? None of the bikes in my link have the bars turned away from the radius... The only bikes I know that "counter steer" though a corner are these types of bikes that run on ice and dirt. If you skip to the 1:05 minute mark and watch this corner, you will see motorcycles counter steering "through" a corner. As we determined earlier. The front wheel is turned "away" from the radius of the turn, and the rear tire is sliding in a radius outside the radius of the front tire... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqUnhTpbtSM ... as opposed to these guys who are clearly *not* counter steering "through" a corner... as very clear if you skip to the 2 minute mark and watch the yellow bike on the right of the frame... It's front tire is turned into the radius, and the rear tire is not sliding sideways, but tracking forward in the direction of the turn, ideally slightly inside the radius of the front tire... this bike is "steering" not counter steering... as in the video of the flat trackers above... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjSXehuADx4 Period... You're right. I made all that **** up. Here, listen to someone but me.... http://answers.yahoo.com/question/in...3163009AAapJ8R Firestormer knows what he's talking about. Scooter doesn't have a friggin' clue. I assume you agree with Scooter. Adios. I've just been pulling your leg all this time. There's no such thing as counter steering. Next time you're hitting the tight curves, just take your hands off the bars and lean. LOL He'll go off the road at a slight angle, but still going straight ahead. LOL, next time you are going down the road let go and lean left without touching the bars at all and tell me which way you go... |
countersteering...
On 2/13/2014 6:15 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/13/2014 5:22 PM, KC wrote: On 2/13/2014 5:16 PM, Poco Loco wrote: On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 17:10:43 -0500, KC wrote: On 2/13/2014 5:02 PM, Poco Loco wrote: On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 16:37:10 -0500, KC wrote: On 2/13/2014 4:04 PM, Poco Loco wrote: On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 15:29:25 -0500, KC wrote: On 2/13/2014 12:16 PM, Poco Loco wrote: On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 10:20:32 -0500, KC wrote: On 2/13/2014 10:13 AM, KC wrote: On 2/13/2014 8:17 AM, Poco Loco wrote: On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 23:39:23 -0500, KC wrote: On 2/12/2014 11:22 PM, KC wrote: On 2/12/2014 8:13 PM, Poco Loco wrote: On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 19:14:08 -0500, KC wrote: https://www.google.com/search?q=gpx+corner&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=x ev7Upn5IoSMqQGT-IGgBA&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAg&biw=1366&bih=667#q=motorcycl e+corner&tbm=isch nd the rear tire is tracking inside the track of the front tire.. There may be a couple exceptions such as corners that are too sharp for normal tracking... Again, those tracks are made for drifting/countersteering so they will be faster in that mode.. All of 'em. https://www.google.com/search?q=gpx+corner&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=x ev7Upn5IoSMqQGT-IGgBA&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAg&biw=1366&bih=667#q=motorcycl e+corner&tbm=isch Please John, end the madness... Take a second and go to the link above and post a quick link of the motorcycle you see in the first say, half of the page where the front wheel is turned away from the radius and the rear tire is tracking outside the front tire radius... or what you call countersteering. You said all of 'em. Apparently you don't know what countersteering really is.... I've already answered it. They got to where they are by countersteering. They are staying in the turn because they are pushing on the handlebar corresponding to the direction of the turn. Push left, go left. Push right, go right. Here, now you look at something. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivwZ_DEFHrc No question there... I had that save my ass on my CB500 Twin which supposedly had a "Triumph" style front end. I hit a huge chunk of frozen slush and it kicked my tire out so I got loose, and let the thing swing back and fourth till it stood itself back up, I pulled over and cleaned my pants out... literally... I understand the technique completely, no issue there I have a high level of what they call three dimensional comprehension... I actually see the forces of water and gyros, etc in my head when I design, I used to see how water would work around boat hulls when I drew them and where the drag would be etc... Put it in the computer and it was right, used to talk about it a lot with my engineer bud in Gloucester... Anyway, to countersteering (which I believe in:) It's not a question of belief, It's what is. My only point is I "can" initiate a turn without countersteering by meerely shifting my weight before initiating the turn. Very often it seems like a lean is initiating the turn, but in reality it's the pressure you're putting on the handlebar when you lean. For example, if I don't exert any pressure on the handlebar, I can lean over and pull my pants leg down without making a turn. Have you never done that? Oh, I suppose you could lean enough to change lanes on the highway, but you'd not want to try taking any sharp curves that way. At the same time I also understand that in the emergency situation when you don't have time to set up, the countersteer is the only way to start the turn... You see, I get it, but still like the guy in your vid said... "The countersteer initiates the turn, but the gyro effect immediately corrects it"... The gyro effect immediately brings the bike back up - if the countersteering is stopped - i.e., no more pressure on the handle bar. If the pushing on the bar is continued, the bike will lean more and turn more sharply. or you would really be on the pavement... If you are countersteering through the corner (over riding the natural "steering force" tendency to "correct"), you are sliding the back tire sideways and scrubbing off speed.... Totally wrong. If your speed is too fast for the turn, *then* you may slide the rear tire. The force on the handlebar (the countersteering force) is continued until you are ready to straigten up and come out of the turn. Then the push is relaxed and the bike corrects itself - comes back to the vertical. Sliding at speed is *not* the way to turn corners. I get it but how can you counter steer "through a corner"? None of the bikes in my link have the bars turned away from the radius... The only bikes I know that "counter steer" though a corner are these types of bikes that run on ice and dirt. If you skip to the 1:05 minute mark and watch this corner, you will see motorcycles counter steering "through" a corner. As we determined earlier. The front wheel is turned "away" from the radius of the turn, and the rear tire is sliding in a radius outside the radius of the front tire... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqUnhTpbtSM ... as opposed to these guys who are clearly *not* counter steering "through" a corner... as very clear if you skip to the 2 minute mark and watch the yellow bike on the right of the frame... It's front tire is turned into the radius, and the rear tire is not sliding sideways, but tracking forward in the direction of the turn, ideally slightly inside the radius of the front tire... this bike is "steering" not counter steering... as in the video of the flat trackers above... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjSXehuADx4 Period... You're right. I made all that **** up. Here, listen to someone but me.... http://answers.yahoo.com/question/in...3163009AAapJ8R Firestormer knows what he's talking about. Scooter doesn't have a friggin' clue. I assume you agree with Scooter. Adios. I've just been pulling your leg all this time. There's no such thing as counter steering. Next time you're hitting the tight curves, just take your hands off the bars and lean. Wow, what a ****head... This is countersteering http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3630/...73d18625_o.jpg again, what a ****head... I think that's called "steering in the direction of the slide". :-) You do that in cars too. What? Slide a corner... I guess... |
countersteering...
On 2/13/2014 6:18 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/13/2014 5:07 PM, KC wrote: On 2/13/2014 5:02 PM, Poco Loco wrote: On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 16:37:10 -0500, KC wrote: On 2/13/2014 4:04 PM, Poco Loco wrote: On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 15:29:25 -0500, KC wrote: On 2/13/2014 12:16 PM, Poco Loco wrote: On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 10:20:32 -0500, KC wrote: On 2/13/2014 10:13 AM, KC wrote: On 2/13/2014 8:17 AM, Poco Loco wrote: On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 23:39:23 -0500, KC wrote: On 2/12/2014 11:22 PM, KC wrote: On 2/12/2014 8:13 PM, Poco Loco wrote: On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 19:14:08 -0500, KC wrote: https://www.google.com/search?q=gpx+corner&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=x ev7Upn5IoSMqQGT-IGgBA&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAg&biw=1366&bih=667#q=motorcycl e+corner&tbm=isch nd the rear tire is tracking inside the track of the front tire.. There may be a couple exceptions such as corners that are too sharp for normal tracking... Again, those tracks are made for drifting/countersteering so they will be faster in that mode.. All of 'em. https://www.google.com/search?q=gpx+corner&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=x ev7Upn5IoSMqQGT-IGgBA&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAg&biw=1366&bih=667#q=motorcycl e+corner&tbm=isch Please John, end the madness... Take a second and go to the link above and post a quick link of the motorcycle you see in the first say, half of the page where the front wheel is turned away from the radius and the rear tire is tracking outside the front tire radius... or what you call countersteering. You said all of 'em. Apparently you don't know what countersteering really is.... I've already answered it. They got to where they are by countersteering. They are staying in the turn because they are pushing on the handlebar corresponding to the direction of the turn. Push left, go left. Push right, go right. Here, now you look at something. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivwZ_DEFHrc No question there... I had that save my ass on my CB500 Twin which supposedly had a "Triumph" style front end. I hit a huge chunk of frozen slush and it kicked my tire out so I got loose, and let the thing swing back and fourth till it stood itself back up, I pulled over and cleaned my pants out... literally... I understand the technique completely, no issue there I have a high level of what they call three dimensional comprehension... I actually see the forces of water and gyros, etc in my head when I design, I used to see how water would work around boat hulls when I drew them and where the drag would be etc... Put it in the computer and it was right, used to talk about it a lot with my engineer bud in Gloucester... Anyway, to countersteering (which I believe in:) It's not a question of belief, It's what is. My only point is I "can" initiate a turn without countersteering by meerely shifting my weight before initiating the turn. Very often it seems like a lean is initiating the turn, but in reality it's the pressure you're putting on the handlebar when you lean. For example, if I don't exert any pressure on the handlebar, I can lean over and pull my pants leg down without making a turn. Have you never done that? Oh, I suppose you could lean enough to change lanes on the highway, but you'd not want to try taking any sharp curves that way. At the same time I also understand that in the emergency situation when you don't have time to set up, the countersteer is the only way to start the turn... You see, I get it, but still like the guy in your vid said... "The countersteer initiates the turn, but the gyro effect immediately corrects it"... The gyro effect immediately brings the bike back up - if the countersteering is stopped - i.e., no more pressure on the handle bar. If the pushing on the bar is continued, the bike will lean more and turn more sharply. or you would really be on the pavement... If you are countersteering through the corner (over riding the natural "steering force" tendency to "correct"), you are sliding the back tire sideways and scrubbing off speed.... Totally wrong. If your speed is too fast for the turn, *then* you may slide the rear tire. The force on the handlebar (the countersteering force) is continued until you are ready to straigten up and come out of the turn. Then the push is relaxed and the bike corrects itself - comes back to the vertical. Sliding at speed is *not* the way to turn corners. I get it but how can you counter steer "through a corner"? None of the bikes in my link have the bars turned away from the radius... The only bikes I know that "counter steer" though a corner are these types of bikes that run on ice and dirt. If you skip to the 1:05 minute mark and watch this corner, you will see motorcycles counter steering "through" a corner. As we determined earlier. The front wheel is turned "away" from the radius of the turn, and the rear tire is sliding in a radius outside the radius of the front tire... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqUnhTpbtSM ... as opposed to these guys who are clearly *not* counter steering "through" a corner... as very clear if you skip to the 2 minute mark and watch the yellow bike on the right of the frame... It's front tire is turned into the radius, and the rear tire is not sliding sideways, but tracking forward in the direction of the turn, ideally slightly inside the radius of the front tire... this bike is "steering" not counter steering... as in the video of the flat trackers above... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjSXehuADx4 Period... You're right. I made all that **** up. No John, you are just not letting your emotion and ego, look at the pictures, and listen to the words. You said "through" the corner, I showed you two distinct versions, one steering, one counter steering Take a breath and go look at 1:05 into the first vid, and 2:01 in the second.... Pause them and just frekin' look...... Scott: For your viewing pleasu http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvPAjr_a6Jg You keep showing me **** I already know.... Through the corner, start a turn... two different conversations... |
countersteering...
On 2/13/2014 7:04 PM, KC wrote:
On 2/13/2014 6:08 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote: On 2/13/2014 4:37 PM, KC wrote: On 2/13/2014 4:04 PM, Poco Loco wrote: On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 15:29:25 -0500, KC wrote: On 2/13/2014 12:16 PM, Poco Loco wrote: On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 10:20:32 -0500, KC wrote: On 2/13/2014 10:13 AM, KC wrote: On 2/13/2014 8:17 AM, Poco Loco wrote: On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 23:39:23 -0500, KC wrote: On 2/12/2014 11:22 PM, KC wrote: On 2/12/2014 8:13 PM, Poco Loco wrote: On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 19:14:08 -0500, KC wrote: https://www.google.com/search?q=gpx+corner&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=x ev7Upn5IoSMqQGT-IGgBA&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAg&biw=1366&bih=667#q=motorcycl e+corner&tbm=isch nd the rear tire is tracking inside the track of the front tire.. There may be a couple exceptions such as corners that are too sharp for normal tracking... Again, those tracks are made for drifting/countersteering so they will be faster in that mode.. All of 'em. https://www.google.com/search?q=gpx+corner&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=x ev7Upn5IoSMqQGT-IGgBA&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAg&biw=1366&bih=667#q=motorcycl e+corner&tbm=isch Please John, end the madness... Take a second and go to the link above and post a quick link of the motorcycle you see in the first say, half of the page where the front wheel is turned away from the radius and the rear tire is tracking outside the front tire radius... or what you call countersteering. You said all of 'em. Apparently you don't know what countersteering really is.... I've already answered it. They got to where they are by countersteering. They are staying in the turn because they are pushing on the handlebar corresponding to the direction of the turn. Push left, go left. Push right, go right. Here, now you look at something. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivwZ_DEFHrc No question there... I had that save my ass on my CB500 Twin which supposedly had a "Triumph" style front end. I hit a huge chunk of frozen slush and it kicked my tire out so I got loose, and let the thing swing back and fourth till it stood itself back up, I pulled over and cleaned my pants out... literally... I understand the technique completely, no issue there I have a high level of what they call three dimensional comprehension... I actually see the forces of water and gyros, etc in my head when I design, I used to see how water would work around boat hulls when I drew them and where the drag would be etc... Put it in the computer and it was right, used to talk about it a lot with my engineer bud in Gloucester... Anyway, to countersteering (which I believe in:) It's not a question of belief, It's what is. My only point is I "can" initiate a turn without countersteering by meerely shifting my weight before initiating the turn. Very often it seems like a lean is initiating the turn, but in reality it's the pressure you're putting on the handlebar when you lean. For example, if I don't exert any pressure on the handlebar, I can lean over and pull my pants leg down without making a turn. Have you never done that? Oh, I suppose you could lean enough to change lanes on the highway, but you'd not want to try taking any sharp curves that way. At the same time I also understand that in the emergency situation when you don't have time to set up, the countersteer is the only way to start the turn... You see, I get it, but still like the guy in your vid said... "The countersteer initiates the turn, but the gyro effect immediately corrects it"... The gyro effect immediately brings the bike back up - if the countersteering is stopped - i.e., no more pressure on the handle bar. If the pushing on the bar is continued, the bike will lean more and turn more sharply. or you would really be on the pavement... If you are countersteering through the corner (over riding the natural "steering force" tendency to "correct"), you are sliding the back tire sideways and scrubbing off speed.... Totally wrong. If your speed is too fast for the turn, *then* you may slide the rear tire. The force on the handlebar (the countersteering force) is continued until you are ready to straigten up and come out of the turn. Then the push is relaxed and the bike corrects itself - comes back to the vertical. Sliding at speed is *not* the way to turn corners. I get it but how can you counter steer "through a corner"? None of the bikes in my link have the bars turned away from the radius... The only bikes I know that "counter steer" though a corner are these types of bikes that run on ice and dirt. If you skip to the 1:05 minute mark and watch this corner, you will see motorcycles counter steering "through" a corner. As we determined earlier. The front wheel is turned "away" from the radius of the turn, and the rear tire is sliding in a radius outside the radius of the front tire... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqUnhTpbtSM ... as opposed to these guys who are clearly *not* counter steering "through" a corner... as very clear if you skip to the 2 minute mark and watch the yellow bike on the right of the frame... It's front tire is turned into the radius, and the rear tire is not sliding sideways, but tracking forward in the direction of the turn, ideally slightly inside the radius of the front tire... this bike is "steering" not counter steering... as in the video of the flat trackers above... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjSXehuADx4 Period... Scott, I think you are over emphasizing "counter steering" or the amount of pressure required to counter steer. For most riders, especially street bike riders, it happens almost naturally without even thinking about it. Here's why: The principle is based in physics and is known as *Gyroscopic Precession* It basically means that a spinning mass (like a motorcycle wheel) generates a force equal to it's mass x velocity squared that is 90 degrees to gravitational forces. In the case of a motorcycle or bicycle this force is transmitted to the axle ... again, 90 degrees in direction relative to gravitational forces. At speed, you could snap one of the forks off your bike and it would still want to stay upright and going straight ... until you slowed down of course and the forces generated by gyroscopic precession aren't enough to overcome gravity's desire to throw you and the bike on it's side. In the case of a motorcycle or even a bicycle, that force is much, much greater than the weight of you leaning over to one side, which is why, as John said, at speed you could lean over and tie your shoe and the bike will still keep going straight. At speed a gyroscope (or motorcycle) requires an additional force to cause it to change it's axis of rotation (like making a turn or cornering). That force is supplied by counter steering. On a street bike cruising down the road and going around a corner the amount of counter steer is just about in-perceptual to the rider, but has to occur. Otherwise the bike would keep going straight. I already stipulated to all of that long ago... John said you are countersteering "through" the corner... it's different than what we were talking about....Me and you were on the same page from the beginning, just didn't communicate it correctly... I don't think we are on the same page. As long as that "corner" exists and you desire to follow it, you are counter-steering relative to going straight. Proof is this (except I am not going to try it). Halfway through a "corner" or turn, what would happen if you suddenly put both hands up in the air. What's going to happen? Are you going to continue following the curve as you seem to suggest or are you going to suddenly start going straight halfway through it and go off the road? I'd think about it before you answer. |
countersteering...
On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 19:05:45 -0500, KC wrote:
On 2/13/2014 6:11 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote: On 2/13/2014 5:07 PM, KC wrote: On 2/13/2014 5:02 PM, Poco Loco wrote: On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 16:37:10 -0500, KC wrote: On 2/13/2014 4:04 PM, Poco Loco wrote: On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 15:29:25 -0500, KC wrote: On 2/13/2014 12:16 PM, Poco Loco wrote: On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 10:20:32 -0500, KC wrote: On 2/13/2014 10:13 AM, KC wrote: On 2/13/2014 8:17 AM, Poco Loco wrote: On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 23:39:23 -0500, KC wrote: On 2/12/2014 11:22 PM, KC wrote: On 2/12/2014 8:13 PM, Poco Loco wrote: On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 19:14:08 -0500, KC wrote: https://www.google.com/search?q=gpx+corner&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=x ev7Upn5IoSMqQGT-IGgBA&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAg&biw=1366&bih=667#q=motorcycl e+corner&tbm=isch nd the rear tire is tracking inside the track of the front tire.. There may be a couple exceptions such as corners that are too sharp for normal tracking... Again, those tracks are made for drifting/countersteering so they will be faster in that mode.. All of 'em. https://www.google.com/search?q=gpx+corner&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=x ev7Upn5IoSMqQGT-IGgBA&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAg&biw=1366&bih=667#q=motorcycl e+corner&tbm=isch Please John, end the madness... Take a second and go to the link above and post a quick link of the motorcycle you see in the first say, half of the page where the front wheel is turned away from the radius and the rear tire is tracking outside the front tire radius... or what you call countersteering. You said all of 'em. Apparently you don't know what countersteering really is.... I've already answered it. They got to where they are by countersteering. They are staying in the turn because they are pushing on the handlebar corresponding to the direction of the turn. Push left, go left. Push right, go right. Here, now you look at something. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivwZ_DEFHrc No question there... I had that save my ass on my CB500 Twin which supposedly had a "Triumph" style front end. I hit a huge chunk of frozen slush and it kicked my tire out so I got loose, and let the thing swing back and fourth till it stood itself back up, I pulled over and cleaned my pants out... literally... I understand the technique completely, no issue there I have a high level of what they call three dimensional comprehension... I actually see the forces of water and gyros, etc in my head when I design, I used to see how water would work around boat hulls when I drew them and where the drag would be etc... Put it in the computer and it was right, used to talk about it a lot with my engineer bud in Gloucester... Anyway, to countersteering (which I believe in:) It's not a question of belief, It's what is. My only point is I "can" initiate a turn without countersteering by meerely shifting my weight before initiating the turn. Very often it seems like a lean is initiating the turn, but in reality it's the pressure you're putting on the handlebar when you lean. For example, if I don't exert any pressure on the handlebar, I can lean over and pull my pants leg down without making a turn. Have you never done that? Oh, I suppose you could lean enough to change lanes on the highway, but you'd not want to try taking any sharp curves that way. At the same time I also understand that in the emergency situation when you don't have time to set up, the countersteer is the only way to start the turn... You see, I get it, but still like the guy in your vid said... "The countersteer initiates the turn, but the gyro effect immediately corrects it"... The gyro effect immediately brings the bike back up - if the countersteering is stopped - i.e., no more pressure on the handle bar. If the pushing on the bar is continued, the bike will lean more and turn more sharply. or you would really be on the pavement... If you are countersteering through the corner (over riding the natural "steering force" tendency to "correct"), you are sliding the back tire sideways and scrubbing off speed.... Totally wrong. If your speed is too fast for the turn, *then* you may slide the rear tire. The force on the handlebar (the countersteering force) is continued until you are ready to straigten up and come out of the turn. Then the push is relaxed and the bike corrects itself - comes back to the vertical. Sliding at speed is *not* the way to turn corners. I get it but how can you counter steer "through a corner"? None of the bikes in my link have the bars turned away from the radius... The only bikes I know that "counter steer" though a corner are these types of bikes that run on ice and dirt. If you skip to the 1:05 minute mark and watch this corner, you will see motorcycles counter steering "through" a corner. As we determined earlier. The front wheel is turned "away" from the radius of the turn, and the rear tire is sliding in a radius outside the radius of the front tire... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqUnhTpbtSM ... as opposed to these guys who are clearly *not* counter steering "through" a corner... as very clear if you skip to the 2 minute mark and watch the yellow bike on the right of the frame... It's front tire is turned into the radius, and the rear tire is not sliding sideways, but tracking forward in the direction of the turn, ideally slightly inside the radius of the front tire... this bike is "steering" not counter steering... as in the video of the flat trackers above... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjSXehuADx4 Period... You're right. I made all that **** up. No John, you are just not letting your emotion and ego, look at the pictures, and listen to the words. You said "through" the corner, I showed you two distinct versions, one steering, one counter steering Take a breath and go look at 1:05 into the first vid, and 2:01 in the second.... Pause them and just frekin' look...... Friendly suggestion. You might want to hold off on your condemnations until you read and think about this a little more. Dick, it's pretty simple. You were talking about starting a turn, and we miscommunicated but we are both on the same page there.... John said something totally different, said they are countersteering "through" that's THROUGH the corner, which is what I was saying was incorrect.... Yup. Start and through. Once you let up, you straighten up. Amen. |
countersteering...
On 2/13/2014 7:31 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/13/2014 7:04 PM, KC wrote: On 2/13/2014 6:08 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote: On 2/13/2014 4:37 PM, KC wrote: On 2/13/2014 4:04 PM, Poco Loco wrote: On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 15:29:25 -0500, KC wrote: On 2/13/2014 12:16 PM, Poco Loco wrote: On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 10:20:32 -0500, KC wrote: On 2/13/2014 10:13 AM, KC wrote: On 2/13/2014 8:17 AM, Poco Loco wrote: On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 23:39:23 -0500, KC wrote: On 2/12/2014 11:22 PM, KC wrote: On 2/12/2014 8:13 PM, Poco Loco wrote: On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 19:14:08 -0500, KC wrote: https://www.google.com/search?q=gpx+corner&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=x ev7Upn5IoSMqQGT-IGgBA&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAg&biw=1366&bih=667#q=motorcycl e+corner&tbm=isch nd the rear tire is tracking inside the track of the front tire.. There may be a couple exceptions such as corners that are too sharp for normal tracking... Again, those tracks are made for drifting/countersteering so they will be faster in that mode.. All of 'em. https://www.google.com/search?q=gpx+corner&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=x ev7Upn5IoSMqQGT-IGgBA&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAg&biw=1366&bih=667#q=motorcycl e+corner&tbm=isch Please John, end the madness... Take a second and go to the link above and post a quick link of the motorcycle you see in the first say, half of the page where the front wheel is turned away from the radius and the rear tire is tracking outside the front tire radius... or what you call countersteering. You said all of 'em. Apparently you don't know what countersteering really is.... I've already answered it. They got to where they are by countersteering. They are staying in the turn because they are pushing on the handlebar corresponding to the direction of the turn. Push left, go left. Push right, go right. Here, now you look at something. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivwZ_DEFHrc No question there... I had that save my ass on my CB500 Twin which supposedly had a "Triumph" style front end. I hit a huge chunk of frozen slush and it kicked my tire out so I got loose, and let the thing swing back and fourth till it stood itself back up, I pulled over and cleaned my pants out... literally... I understand the technique completely, no issue there I have a high level of what they call three dimensional comprehension... I actually see the forces of water and gyros, etc in my head when I design, I used to see how water would work around boat hulls when I drew them and where the drag would be etc... Put it in the computer and it was right, used to talk about it a lot with my engineer bud in Gloucester... Anyway, to countersteering (which I believe in:) It's not a question of belief, It's what is. My only point is I "can" initiate a turn without countersteering by meerely shifting my weight before initiating the turn. Very often it seems like a lean is initiating the turn, but in reality it's the pressure you're putting on the handlebar when you lean. For example, if I don't exert any pressure on the handlebar, I can lean over and pull my pants leg down without making a turn. Have you never done that? Oh, I suppose you could lean enough to change lanes on the highway, but you'd not want to try taking any sharp curves that way. At the same time I also understand that in the emergency situation when you don't have time to set up, the countersteer is the only way to start the turn... You see, I get it, but still like the guy in your vid said... "The countersteer initiates the turn, but the gyro effect immediately corrects it"... The gyro effect immediately brings the bike back up - if the countersteering is stopped - i.e., no more pressure on the handle bar. If the pushing on the bar is continued, the bike will lean more and turn more sharply. or you would really be on the pavement... If you are countersteering through the corner (over riding the natural "steering force" tendency to "correct"), you are sliding the back tire sideways and scrubbing off speed.... Totally wrong. If your speed is too fast for the turn, *then* you may slide the rear tire. The force on the handlebar (the countersteering force) is continued until you are ready to straigten up and come out of the turn. Then the push is relaxed and the bike corrects itself - comes back to the vertical. Sliding at speed is *not* the way to turn corners. I get it but how can you counter steer "through a corner"? None of the bikes in my link have the bars turned away from the radius... The only bikes I know that "counter steer" though a corner are these types of bikes that run on ice and dirt. If you skip to the 1:05 minute mark and watch this corner, you will see motorcycles counter steering "through" a corner. As we determined earlier. The front wheel is turned "away" from the radius of the turn, and the rear tire is sliding in a radius outside the radius of the front tire... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqUnhTpbtSM ... as opposed to these guys who are clearly *not* counter steering "through" a corner... as very clear if you skip to the 2 minute mark and watch the yellow bike on the right of the frame... It's front tire is turned into the radius, and the rear tire is not sliding sideways, but tracking forward in the direction of the turn, ideally slightly inside the radius of the front tire... this bike is "steering" not counter steering... as in the video of the flat trackers above... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjSXehuADx4 Period... Scott, I think you are over emphasizing "counter steering" or the amount of pressure required to counter steer. For most riders, especially street bike riders, it happens almost naturally without even thinking about it. Here's why: The principle is based in physics and is known as *Gyroscopic Precession* It basically means that a spinning mass (like a motorcycle wheel) generates a force equal to it's mass x velocity squared that is 90 degrees to gravitational forces. In the case of a motorcycle or bicycle this force is transmitted to the axle ... again, 90 degrees in direction relative to gravitational forces. At speed, you could snap one of the forks off your bike and it would still want to stay upright and going straight ... until you slowed down of course and the forces generated by gyroscopic precession aren't enough to overcome gravity's desire to throw you and the bike on it's side. In the case of a motorcycle or even a bicycle, that force is much, much greater than the weight of you leaning over to one side, which is why, as John said, at speed you could lean over and tie your shoe and the bike will still keep going straight. At speed a gyroscope (or motorcycle) requires an additional force to cause it to change it's axis of rotation (like making a turn or cornering). That force is supplied by counter steering. On a street bike cruising down the road and going around a corner the amount of counter steer is just about in-perceptual to the rider, but has to occur. Otherwise the bike would keep going straight. I already stipulated to all of that long ago... John said you are countersteering "through" the corner... it's different than what we were talking about....Me and you were on the same page from the beginning, just didn't communicate it correctly... I don't think we are on the same page. As long as that "corner" exists and you desire to follow it, you are counter-steering relative to going straight. Proof is this (except I am not going to try it). Halfway through a "corner" or turn, what would happen if you suddenly put both hands up in the air. What's going to happen? Are you going to continue following the curve as you seem to suggest or are you going to suddenly start going straight halfway through it and go off the road? I'd think about it before you answer. Not what I am saying at all, exactly the opposite. It's a symantics issue for me, can't seem to get my point across... Anyway, not really worth it just wasted my day with John thinking I was actually having a serious discussion.. But I guess I will have to just let him screw with harry and loogie if that's what he's here for... |
countersteering...
On 2/13/2014 7:33 PM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 19:05:45 -0500, KC wrote: On 2/13/2014 6:11 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote: On 2/13/2014 5:07 PM, KC wrote: On 2/13/2014 5:02 PM, Poco Loco wrote: On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 16:37:10 -0500, KC wrote: On 2/13/2014 4:04 PM, Poco Loco wrote: On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 15:29:25 -0500, KC wrote: On 2/13/2014 12:16 PM, Poco Loco wrote: On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 10:20:32 -0500, KC wrote: On 2/13/2014 10:13 AM, KC wrote: On 2/13/2014 8:17 AM, Poco Loco wrote: On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 23:39:23 -0500, KC wrote: On 2/12/2014 11:22 PM, KC wrote: On 2/12/2014 8:13 PM, Poco Loco wrote: On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 19:14:08 -0500, KC wrote: https://www.google.com/search?q=gpx+corner&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=x ev7Upn5IoSMqQGT-IGgBA&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAg&biw=1366&bih=667#q=motorcycl e+corner&tbm=isch nd the rear tire is tracking inside the track of the front tire.. There may be a couple exceptions such as corners that are too sharp for normal tracking... Again, those tracks are made for drifting/countersteering so they will be faster in that mode.. All of 'em. https://www.google.com/search?q=gpx+corner&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=x ev7Upn5IoSMqQGT-IGgBA&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAg&biw=1366&bih=667#q=motorcycl e+corner&tbm=isch Please John, end the madness... Take a second and go to the link above and post a quick link of the motorcycle you see in the first say, half of the page where the front wheel is turned away from the radius and the rear tire is tracking outside the front tire radius... or what you call countersteering. You said all of 'em. Apparently you don't know what countersteering really is.... I've already answered it. They got to where they are by countersteering. They are staying in the turn because they are pushing on the handlebar corresponding to the direction of the turn. Push left, go left. Push right, go right. Here, now you look at something. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivwZ_DEFHrc No question there... I had that save my ass on my CB500 Twin which supposedly had a "Triumph" style front end. I hit a huge chunk of frozen slush and it kicked my tire out so I got loose, and let the thing swing back and fourth till it stood itself back up, I pulled over and cleaned my pants out... literally... I understand the technique completely, no issue there I have a high level of what they call three dimensional comprehension... I actually see the forces of water and gyros, etc in my head when I design, I used to see how water would work around boat hulls when I drew them and where the drag would be etc... Put it in the computer and it was right, used to talk about it a lot with my engineer bud in Gloucester... Anyway, to countersteering (which I believe in:) It's not a question of belief, It's what is. My only point is I "can" initiate a turn without countersteering by meerely shifting my weight before initiating the turn. Very often it seems like a lean is initiating the turn, but in reality it's the pressure you're putting on the handlebar when you lean. For example, if I don't exert any pressure on the handlebar, I can lean over and pull my pants leg down without making a turn. Have you never done that? Oh, I suppose you could lean enough to change lanes on the highway, but you'd not want to try taking any sharp curves that way. At the same time I also understand that in the emergency situation when you don't have time to set up, the countersteer is the only way to start the turn... You see, I get it, but still like the guy in your vid said... "The countersteer initiates the turn, but the gyro effect immediately corrects it"... The gyro effect immediately brings the bike back up - if the countersteering is stopped - i.e., no more pressure on the handle bar. If the pushing on the bar is continued, the bike will lean more and turn more sharply. or you would really be on the pavement... If you are countersteering through the corner (over riding the natural "steering force" tendency to "correct"), you are sliding the back tire sideways and scrubbing off speed.... Totally wrong. If your speed is too fast for the turn, *then* you may slide the rear tire. The force on the handlebar (the countersteering force) is continued until you are ready to straigten up and come out of the turn. Then the push is relaxed and the bike corrects itself - comes back to the vertical. Sliding at speed is *not* the way to turn corners. I get it but how can you counter steer "through a corner"? None of the bikes in my link have the bars turned away from the radius... The only bikes I know that "counter steer" though a corner are these types of bikes that run on ice and dirt. If you skip to the 1:05 minute mark and watch this corner, you will see motorcycles counter steering "through" a corner. As we determined earlier. The front wheel is turned "away" from the radius of the turn, and the rear tire is sliding in a radius outside the radius of the front tire... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqUnhTpbtSM ... as opposed to these guys who are clearly *not* counter steering "through" a corner... as very clear if you skip to the 2 minute mark and watch the yellow bike on the right of the frame... It's front tire is turned into the radius, and the rear tire is not sliding sideways, but tracking forward in the direction of the turn, ideally slightly inside the radius of the front tire... this bike is "steering" not counter steering... as in the video of the flat trackers above... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjSXehuADx4 Period... You're right. I made all that **** up. No John, you are just not letting your emotion and ego, look at the pictures, and listen to the words. You said "through" the corner, I showed you two distinct versions, one steering, one counter steering Take a breath and go look at 1:05 into the first vid, and 2:01 in the second.... Pause them and just frekin' look...... Friendly suggestion. You might want to hold off on your condemnations until you read and think about this a little more. Dick, it's pretty simple. You were talking about starting a turn, and we miscommunicated but we are both on the same page there.... John said something totally different, said they are countersteering "through" that's THROUGH the corner, which is what I was saying was incorrect.... Yup. Start and through. Once you let up, you straighten up. Amen. I think maybe I know why Scott thinks counter-steering is not required *through* the turn. In his world of dirt bike racing they often "slide" through a turn, so the rear wheel is constantly re-aligning to the direction they want to go. That's why he keeps talking about "thrust" and "steering with the rear wheel". I can understand that. It's a constant, fluid redirection of the rear wheel relative to the curve or "corner" as he puts it. In our world of riding a bike we don't "slide" around a corner ... at least not on purpose. In order to maintain a direction that follows the curve, counter-steering is applied *throughout* the curve. It has to, otherwise you'd go off the road. Those pictures he referenced with the front wheel turned in an exaggerated way is *not* counter-steering. But, whatever floats his boat. He apparently knows all and sees all. Too bad he's teaching physics to kids though. |
countersteering...
On 2/13/2014 7:50 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/13/2014 7:33 PM, Poco Loco wrote: On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 19:05:45 -0500, KC wrote: On 2/13/2014 6:11 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote: On 2/13/2014 5:07 PM, KC wrote: On 2/13/2014 5:02 PM, Poco Loco wrote: On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 16:37:10 -0500, KC wrote: On 2/13/2014 4:04 PM, Poco Loco wrote: On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 15:29:25 -0500, KC wrote: On 2/13/2014 12:16 PM, Poco Loco wrote: On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 10:20:32 -0500, KC wrote: On 2/13/2014 10:13 AM, KC wrote: On 2/13/2014 8:17 AM, Poco Loco wrote: On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 23:39:23 -0500, KC wrote: On 2/12/2014 11:22 PM, KC wrote: On 2/12/2014 8:13 PM, Poco Loco wrote: On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 19:14:08 -0500, KC wrote: https://www.google.com/search?q=gpx+corner&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=x ev7Upn5IoSMqQGT-IGgBA&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAg&biw=1366&bih=667#q=motorcycl e+corner&tbm=isch nd the rear tire is tracking inside the track of the front tire.. There may be a couple exceptions such as corners that are too sharp for normal tracking... Again, those tracks are made for drifting/countersteering so they will be faster in that mode.. All of 'em. https://www.google.com/search?q=gpx+corner&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=x ev7Upn5IoSMqQGT-IGgBA&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAg&biw=1366&bih=667#q=motorcycl e+corner&tbm=isch Please John, end the madness... Take a second and go to the link above and post a quick link of the motorcycle you see in the first say, half of the page where the front wheel is turned away from the radius and the rear tire is tracking outside the front tire radius... or what you call countersteering. You said all of 'em. Apparently you don't know what countersteering really is.... I've already answered it. They got to where they are by countersteering. They are staying in the turn because they are pushing on the handlebar corresponding to the direction of the turn. Push left, go left. Push right, go right. Here, now you look at something. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivwZ_DEFHrc No question there... I had that save my ass on my CB500 Twin which supposedly had a "Triumph" style front end. I hit a huge chunk of frozen slush and it kicked my tire out so I got loose, and let the thing swing back and fourth till it stood itself back up, I pulled over and cleaned my pants out... literally... I understand the technique completely, no issue there I have a high level of what they call three dimensional comprehension... I actually see the forces of water and gyros, etc in my head when I design, I used to see how water would work around boat hulls when I drew them and where the drag would be etc... Put it in the computer and it was right, used to talk about it a lot with my engineer bud in Gloucester... Anyway, to countersteering (which I believe in:) It's not a question of belief, It's what is. My only point is I "can" initiate a turn without countersteering by meerely shifting my weight before initiating the turn. Very often it seems like a lean is initiating the turn, but in reality it's the pressure you're putting on the handlebar when you lean. For example, if I don't exert any pressure on the handlebar, I can lean over and pull my pants leg down without making a turn. Have you never done that? Oh, I suppose you could lean enough to change lanes on the highway, but you'd not want to try taking any sharp curves that way. At the same time I also understand that in the emergency situation when you don't have time to set up, the countersteer is the only way to start the turn... You see, I get it, but still like the guy in your vid said... "The countersteer initiates the turn, but the gyro effect immediately corrects it"... The gyro effect immediately brings the bike back up - if the countersteering is stopped - i.e., no more pressure on the handle bar. If the pushing on the bar is continued, the bike will lean more and turn more sharply. or you would really be on the pavement... If you are countersteering through the corner (over riding the natural "steering force" tendency to "correct"), you are sliding the back tire sideways and scrubbing off speed.... Totally wrong. If your speed is too fast for the turn, *then* you may slide the rear tire. The force on the handlebar (the countersteering force) is continued until you are ready to straigten up and come out of the turn. Then the push is relaxed and the bike corrects itself - comes back to the vertical. Sliding at speed is *not* the way to turn corners. I get it but how can you counter steer "through a corner"? None of the bikes in my link have the bars turned away from the radius... The only bikes I know that "counter steer" though a corner are these types of bikes that run on ice and dirt. If you skip to the 1:05 minute mark and watch this corner, you will see motorcycles counter steering "through" a corner. As we determined earlier. The front wheel is turned "away" from the radius of the turn, and the rear tire is sliding in a radius outside the radius of the front tire... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqUnhTpbtSM ... as opposed to these guys who are clearly *not* counter steering "through" a corner... as very clear if you skip to the 2 minute mark and watch the yellow bike on the right of the frame... It's front tire is turned into the radius, and the rear tire is not sliding sideways, but tracking forward in the direction of the turn, ideally slightly inside the radius of the front tire... this bike is "steering" not counter steering... as in the video of the flat trackers above... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjSXehuADx4 Period... You're right. I made all that **** up. No John, you are just not letting your emotion and ego, look at the pictures, and listen to the words. You said "through" the corner, I showed you two distinct versions, one steering, one counter steering Take a breath and go look at 1:05 into the first vid, and 2:01 in the second.... Pause them and just frekin' look...... Friendly suggestion. You might want to hold off on your condemnations until you read and think about this a little more. Dick, it's pretty simple. You were talking about starting a turn, and we miscommunicated but we are both on the same page there.... John said something totally different, said they are countersteering "through" that's THROUGH the corner, which is what I was saying was incorrect.... Yup. Start and through. Once you let up, you straighten up. Amen. I think maybe I know why Scott thinks counter-steering is not required *through* the turn. In his world of dirt bike racing they often "slide" through a turn, so the rear wheel is constantly re-aligning to the direction they want to go. That's why he keeps talking about "thrust" and "steering with the rear wheel". I can understand that. It's a constant, fluid redirection of the rear wheel relative to the curve or "corner" as he puts it. In our world of riding a bike we don't "slide" around a corner ... at least not on purpose. In order to maintain a direction that follows the curve, counter-steering is applied *throughout* the curve. It has to, otherwise you'd go off the road. Those pictures he referenced with the front wheel turned in an exaggerated way is *not* counter-steering. But, whatever floats his boat. He apparently knows all and sees all. Too bad he's teaching physics to kids though. So, you are saying that through a left turn, you are putting pressure on the left bar turning it away from the radius of the turn, or right in relation to the centerline of the bike? |
countersteering...
On 2/13/2014 7:50 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
Too bad he's teaching physics to kids though. Yeah, cause you are the only one here with anything to offer... |
countersteering...
On 2/13/14, 7:50 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/13/2014 7:33 PM, Poco Loco wrote: On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 19:05:45 -0500, KC wrote: But, whatever floats his boat. He apparently knows all and sees all. Too bad he's teaching physics to kids though. You should be proud. You guys have created an old-time Fretwell-Loogy thread without Fretwell or Loogy. :) -- Sarah Palin is watching the Sochi Olympic Games from the front porch of her house. |
countersteering...
On 2/13/2014 7:48 PM, KC wrote:
On 2/13/2014 7:31 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote: On 2/13/2014 7:04 PM, KC wrote: On 2/13/2014 6:08 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote: On 2/13/2014 4:37 PM, KC wrote: On 2/13/2014 4:04 PM, Poco Loco wrote: On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 15:29:25 -0500, KC wrote: On 2/13/2014 12:16 PM, Poco Loco wrote: On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 10:20:32 -0500, KC wrote: On 2/13/2014 10:13 AM, KC wrote: On 2/13/2014 8:17 AM, Poco Loco wrote: On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 23:39:23 -0500, KC wrote: On 2/12/2014 11:22 PM, KC wrote: On 2/12/2014 8:13 PM, Poco Loco wrote: On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 19:14:08 -0500, KC wrote: https://www.google.com/search?q=gpx+corner&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=x ev7Upn5IoSMqQGT-IGgBA&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAg&biw=1366&bih=667#q=motorcycl e+corner&tbm=isch nd the rear tire is tracking inside the track of the front tire.. There may be a couple exceptions such as corners that are too sharp for normal tracking... Again, those tracks are made for drifting/countersteering so they will be faster in that mode.. All of 'em. https://www.google.com/search?q=gpx+corner&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=x ev7Upn5IoSMqQGT-IGgBA&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAg&biw=1366&bih=667#q=motorcycl e+corner&tbm=isch Please John, end the madness... Take a second and go to the link above and post a quick link of the motorcycle you see in the first say, half of the page where the front wheel is turned away from the radius and the rear tire is tracking outside the front tire radius... or what you call countersteering. You said all of 'em. Apparently you don't know what countersteering really is.... I've already answered it. They got to where they are by countersteering. They are staying in the turn because they are pushing on the handlebar corresponding to the direction of the turn. Push left, go left. Push right, go right. Here, now you look at something. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivwZ_DEFHrc No question there... I had that save my ass on my CB500 Twin which supposedly had a "Triumph" style front end. I hit a huge chunk of frozen slush and it kicked my tire out so I got loose, and let the thing swing back and fourth till it stood itself back up, I pulled over and cleaned my pants out... literally... I understand the technique completely, no issue there I have a high level of what they call three dimensional comprehension... I actually see the forces of water and gyros, etc in my head when I design, I used to see how water would work around boat hulls when I drew them and where the drag would be etc... Put it in the computer and it was right, used to talk about it a lot with my engineer bud in Gloucester... Anyway, to countersteering (which I believe in:) It's not a question of belief, It's what is. My only point is I "can" initiate a turn without countersteering by meerely shifting my weight before initiating the turn. Very often it seems like a lean is initiating the turn, but in reality it's the pressure you're putting on the handlebar when you lean. For example, if I don't exert any pressure on the handlebar, I can lean over and pull my pants leg down without making a turn. Have you never done that? Oh, I suppose you could lean enough to change lanes on the highway, but you'd not want to try taking any sharp curves that way. At the same time I also understand that in the emergency situation when you don't have time to set up, the countersteer is the only way to start the turn... You see, I get it, but still like the guy in your vid said... "The countersteer initiates the turn, but the gyro effect immediately corrects it"... The gyro effect immediately brings the bike back up - if the countersteering is stopped - i.e., no more pressure on the handle bar. If the pushing on the bar is continued, the bike will lean more and turn more sharply. or you would really be on the pavement... If you are countersteering through the corner (over riding the natural "steering force" tendency to "correct"), you are sliding the back tire sideways and scrubbing off speed.... Totally wrong. If your speed is too fast for the turn, *then* you may slide the rear tire. The force on the handlebar (the countersteering force) is continued until you are ready to straigten up and come out of the turn. Then the push is relaxed and the bike corrects itself - comes back to the vertical. Sliding at speed is *not* the way to turn corners. I get it but how can you counter steer "through a corner"? None of the bikes in my link have the bars turned away from the radius... The only bikes I know that "counter steer" though a corner are these types of bikes that run on ice and dirt. If you skip to the 1:05 minute mark and watch this corner, you will see motorcycles counter steering "through" a corner. As we determined earlier. The front wheel is turned "away" from the radius of the turn, and the rear tire is sliding in a radius outside the radius of the front tire... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqUnhTpbtSM ... as opposed to these guys who are clearly *not* counter steering "through" a corner... as very clear if you skip to the 2 minute mark and watch the yellow bike on the right of the frame... It's front tire is turned into the radius, and the rear tire is not sliding sideways, but tracking forward in the direction of the turn, ideally slightly inside the radius of the front tire... this bike is "steering" not counter steering... as in the video of the flat trackers above... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjSXehuADx4 Period... Scott, I think you are over emphasizing "counter steering" or the amount of pressure required to counter steer. For most riders, especially street bike riders, it happens almost naturally without even thinking about it. Here's why: The principle is based in physics and is known as *Gyroscopic Precession* It basically means that a spinning mass (like a motorcycle wheel) generates a force equal to it's mass x velocity squared that is 90 degrees to gravitational forces. In the case of a motorcycle or bicycle this force is transmitted to the axle ... again, 90 degrees in direction relative to gravitational forces. At speed, you could snap one of the forks off your bike and it would still want to stay upright and going straight ... until you slowed down of course and the forces generated by gyroscopic precession aren't enough to overcome gravity's desire to throw you and the bike on it's side. In the case of a motorcycle or even a bicycle, that force is much, much greater than the weight of you leaning over to one side, which is why, as John said, at speed you could lean over and tie your shoe and the bike will still keep going straight. At speed a gyroscope (or motorcycle) requires an additional force to cause it to change it's axis of rotation (like making a turn or cornering). That force is supplied by counter steering. On a street bike cruising down the road and going around a corner the amount of counter steer is just about in-perceptual to the rider, but has to occur. Otherwise the bike would keep going straight. I already stipulated to all of that long ago... John said you are countersteering "through" the corner... it's different than what we were talking about....Me and you were on the same page from the beginning, just didn't communicate it correctly... I don't think we are on the same page. As long as that "corner" exists and you desire to follow it, you are counter-steering relative to going straight. Proof is this (except I am not going to try it). Halfway through a "corner" or turn, what would happen if you suddenly put both hands up in the air. What's going to happen? Are you going to continue following the curve as you seem to suggest or are you going to suddenly start going straight halfway through it and go off the road? I'd think about it before you answer. Not what I am saying at all, exactly the opposite. It's a symantics issue for me, can't seem to get my point across... Anyway, not really worth it just wasted my day with John thinking I was actually having a serious discussion.. But I guess I will have to just let him screw with harry and loogie if that's what he's here for... Why are you getting all defensive and accusatory? It was a decent thread except you are applying very specific examples that relate to the type of riding done on a dirt track as being the "rule" for all bike riding. I think I understand how you got there, based on numerous things you said that again, relate to dirt bikes on a track but not to the physics and requirement to "counter-steer" *through* a turn unless you break the rear wheel free and "slide" or "drift" through the turn. That's a different animal altogether. In your examples, the bike's rear wheel is constantly and fluidly lining up to the direction of desire travel. Make sense? On the road, John is absolutely correct. In order to navigate a turn, constant counter-steering is required. You don't "set up" for the turn or curve with a little counter-steering, then take it off while your bike naturally follows the turn. The thing is, most riders don't even realize that they are counter-steering. Depending on speed and acuteness of the curve, the amount applied is minor and is very natural and intuitive. Most people don't even realize they are doing it. Which is why I posed the original question in the first post of this thread. It had nothing to do with dirt bikes sliding through a turn. |
countersteering...
On 2/13/2014 7:50 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/13/2014 7:33 PM, Poco Loco wrote: On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 19:05:45 -0500, KC wrote: On 2/13/2014 6:11 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote: On 2/13/2014 5:07 PM, KC wrote: On 2/13/2014 5:02 PM, Poco Loco wrote: On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 16:37:10 -0500, KC wrote: On 2/13/2014 4:04 PM, Poco Loco wrote: On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 15:29:25 -0500, KC wrote: On 2/13/2014 12:16 PM, Poco Loco wrote: On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 10:20:32 -0500, KC wrote: On 2/13/2014 10:13 AM, KC wrote: On 2/13/2014 8:17 AM, Poco Loco wrote: On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 23:39:23 -0500, KC wrote: On 2/12/2014 11:22 PM, KC wrote: On 2/12/2014 8:13 PM, Poco Loco wrote: On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 19:14:08 -0500, KC wrote: https://www.google.com/search?q=gpx+corner&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=x ev7Upn5IoSMqQGT-IGgBA&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAg&biw=1366&bih=667#q=motorcycl e+corner&tbm=isch nd the rear tire is tracking inside the track of the front tire.. There may be a couple exceptions such as corners that are too sharp for normal tracking... Again, those tracks are made for drifting/countersteering so they will be faster in that mode.. All of 'em. https://www.google.com/search?q=gpx+corner&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=x ev7Upn5IoSMqQGT-IGgBA&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAg&biw=1366&bih=667#q=motorcycl e+corner&tbm=isch Please John, end the madness... Take a second and go to the link above and post a quick link of the motorcycle you see in the first say, half of the page where the front wheel is turned away from the radius and the rear tire is tracking outside the front tire radius... or what you call countersteering. You said all of 'em. Apparently you don't know what countersteering really is.... I've already answered it. They got to where they are by countersteering. They are staying in the turn because they are pushing on the handlebar corresponding to the direction of the turn. Push left, go left. Push right, go right. Here, now you look at something. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivwZ_DEFHrc No question there... I had that save my ass on my CB500 Twin which supposedly had a "Triumph" style front end. I hit a huge chunk of frozen slush and it kicked my tire out so I got loose, and let the thing swing back and fourth till it stood itself back up, I pulled over and cleaned my pants out... literally... I understand the technique completely, no issue there I have a high level of what they call three dimensional comprehension... I actually see the forces of water and gyros, etc in my head when I design, I used to see how water would work around boat hulls when I drew them and where the drag would be etc... Put it in the computer and it was right, used to talk about it a lot with my engineer bud in Gloucester... Anyway, to countersteering (which I believe in:) It's not a question of belief, It's what is. My only point is I "can" initiate a turn without countersteering by meerely shifting my weight before initiating the turn. Very often it seems like a lean is initiating the turn, but in reality it's the pressure you're putting on the handlebar when you lean. For example, if I don't exert any pressure on the handlebar, I can lean over and pull my pants leg down without making a turn. Have you never done that? Oh, I suppose you could lean enough to change lanes on the highway, but you'd not want to try taking any sharp curves that way. At the same time I also understand that in the emergency situation when you don't have time to set up, the countersteer is the only way to start the turn... You see, I get it, but still like the guy in your vid said... "The countersteer initiates the turn, but the gyro effect immediately corrects it"... The gyro effect immediately brings the bike back up - if the countersteering is stopped - i.e., no more pressure on the handle bar. If the pushing on the bar is continued, the bike will lean more and turn more sharply. or you would really be on the pavement... If you are countersteering through the corner (over riding the natural "steering force" tendency to "correct"), you are sliding the back tire sideways and scrubbing off speed.... Totally wrong. If your speed is too fast for the turn, *then* you may slide the rear tire. The force on the handlebar (the countersteering force) is continued until you are ready to straigten up and come out of the turn. Then the push is relaxed and the bike corrects itself - comes back to the vertical. Sliding at speed is *not* the way to turn corners. I get it but how can you counter steer "through a corner"? None of the bikes in my link have the bars turned away from the radius... The only bikes I know that "counter steer" though a corner are these types of bikes that run on ice and dirt. If you skip to the 1:05 minute mark and watch this corner, you will see motorcycles counter steering "through" a corner. As we determined earlier. The front wheel is turned "away" from the radius of the turn, and the rear tire is sliding in a radius outside the radius of the front tire... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqUnhTpbtSM ... as opposed to these guys who are clearly *not* counter steering "through" a corner... as very clear if you skip to the 2 minute mark and watch the yellow bike on the right of the frame... It's front tire is turned into the radius, and the rear tire is not sliding sideways, but tracking forward in the direction of the turn, ideally slightly inside the radius of the front tire... this bike is "steering" not counter steering... as in the video of the flat trackers above... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjSXehuADx4 Period... You're right. I made all that **** up. No John, you are just not letting your emotion and ego, look at the pictures, and listen to the words. You said "through" the corner, I showed you two distinct versions, one steering, one counter steering Take a breath and go look at 1:05 into the first vid, and 2:01 in the second.... Pause them and just frekin' look...... Friendly suggestion. You might want to hold off on your condemnations until you read and think about this a little more. Dick, it's pretty simple. You were talking about starting a turn, and we miscommunicated but we are both on the same page there.... John said something totally different, said they are countersteering "through" that's THROUGH the corner, which is what I was saying was incorrect.... Yup. Start and through. Once you let up, you straighten up. Amen. I think maybe I know why Scott thinks counter-steering is not required *through* the turn. In his world of dirt bike racing they often "slide" through a turn, and there are times when we don't... Either way, you can both steer, and counter steer with the back end sliding. The difference is when the rear end moves to the outside of the center line of the front forks (front tire).. I showed two examples earlier. One gp bike steering through a corner, one an flat tracker, counter steering through... I will ask you one question I asked John. Show me which of these bikes is "counter-steering" and don't say all of them. Pick one, post the link to the picture and explain how the specific bike in that picture is counter-steering even though the front tire in all of those bikes are turned *into* the radius in comparison to the centerline of the bike... https://www.google.com/search?q=gpx+corner&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=x ev7Upn5IoSMqQGT-IGgBA&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAg&biw=1366&bih=667#q=motorcycl e+corner&tbm=isch Cause I don't see any of the bikes above with the front tire turned away from the radius... |
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