countersteering...
 

On 2/13/2014 8:06 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/13/2014 7:48 PM, KC wrote:
On 2/13/2014 7:31 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/13/2014 7:04 PM, KC wrote:
On 2/13/2014 6:08 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/13/2014 4:37 PM, KC wrote:
On 2/13/2014 4:04 PM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 15:29:25 -0500, KC
wrote:

On 2/13/2014 12:16 PM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 10:20:32 -0500, KC
wrote:

On 2/13/2014 10:13 AM, KC wrote:
On 2/13/2014 8:17 AM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 23:39:23 -0500, KC
wrote:

On 2/12/2014 11:22 PM, KC wrote:
On 2/12/2014 8:13 PM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 19:14:08 -0500, KC

wrote:




https://www.google.com/search?q=gpx+corner&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=x ev7Upn5IoSMqQGT-IGgBA&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAg&biw=1366&bih=667#q=motorcycl e+corner&tbm=isch









nd the rear tire is tracking inside
the track of the front tire..

There may be a couple exceptions such as corners that are
too
sharp for
normal tracking... Again, those tracks are made for
drifting/countersteering so they will be faster in that
mode..

All of 'em.



https://www.google.com/search?q=gpx+corner&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=x ev7Upn5IoSMqQGT-IGgBA&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAg&biw=1366&bih=667#q=motorcycl e+corner&tbm=isch








Please John, end the madness... Take a second and go to the link
above
and post a quick link of the motorcycle you see in the first say,
half
of the page where the front wheel is turned away from the radius
and the
rear tire is tracking outside the front tire radius... or what
you
call
countersteering. You said all of 'em. Apparently you don't know
what
countersteering really is....

I've already answered it. They got to where they are by
countersteering. They are staying in the
turn because they are pushing on the handlebar corresponding to
the
direction of the turn. Push
left, go left. Push right, go right.

Here, now you look at something.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivwZ_DEFHrc


No question there... I had that save my ass on my CB500 Twin which
supposedly had a "Triumph" style front end. I hit a huge chunk of
frozen
slush and it kicked my tire out so I got loose, and let the thing
swing
back and fourth till it stood itself back up, I pulled over and
cleaned
my pants out... literally...

I understand the technique completely, no issue there I have a high
level of what they call three dimensional comprehension... I
actually
see the forces of water and gyros, etc in my head when I design, I
used
to see how water would work around boat hulls when I drew them and
where
the drag would be etc... Put it in the computer and it was right,
used
to talk about it a lot with my engineer bud in Gloucester...

Anyway, to countersteering (which I believe in:)

It's not a question of belief, It's what is.

My only point is I
"can" initiate a turn without countersteering by meerely
shifting my
weight before initiating the turn.

Very often it seems like a lean is initiating the turn, but in
reality
it's the pressure you're
putting on the handlebar when you lean. For example, if I don't
exert
any pressure on the handlebar,
I can lean over and pull my pants leg down without making a turn.
Have
you never done that? Oh, I
suppose you could lean enough to change lanes on the highway, but
you'd not want to try taking any
sharp curves that way.

At the same time I also understand
that in the emergency situation when you don't have time to set up,
the
countersteer is the only way to start the turn... You see, I get
it,
but
still like the guy in your vid said... "The countersteer initiates
the
turn, but the gyro effect immediately corrects it"...

The gyro effect immediately brings the bike back up - if the
countersteering is stopped - i.e., no
more pressure on the handle bar. If the pushing on the bar is
continued, the bike will lean more and
turn more sharply.

or you would
really be on the pavement... If you are countersteering through the
corner (over riding the natural "steering force" tendency to
"correct"),
you are sliding the back tire sideways and scrubbing off speed....

Totally wrong. If your speed is too fast for the turn, *then* you
may
slide the rear tire. The force
on the handlebar (the countersteering force) is continued until you
are ready to straigten up and
come out of the turn. Then the push is relaxed and the bike corrects
itself - comes back to the
vertical.

Sliding at speed is *not* the way to turn corners.


I get it but how can you counter steer "through a corner"? None of
the
bikes in my link have the bars turned away from the radius... The
only
bikes I know that "counter steer" though a corner are these types of
bikes that run on ice and dirt. If you skip to the 1:05 minute mark
and
watch this corner, you will see motorcycles counter steering
"through" a
corner. As we determined earlier. The front wheel is turned "away"
from
the radius of the turn, and the rear tire is sliding in a radius
outside
the radius of the front tire...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqUnhTpbtSM



... as opposed to these guys who are clearly *not* counter steering
"through" a corner... as very clear if you skip to the 2 minute mark
and
watch the yellow bike on the right of the frame... It's front tire is
turned into the radius, and the rear tire is not sliding sideways,
but
tracking forward in the direction of the turn, ideally slightly
inside
the radius of the front tire... this bike is "steering" not counter
steering... as in the video of the flat trackers above...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjSXehuADx4


Period...


Scott, I think you are over emphasizing "counter steering" or the
amount
of pressure required to counter steer. For most riders, especially
street bike riders, it happens almost naturally without even thinking
about it. Here's why:

The principle is based in physics and is known as *Gyroscopic
Precession* It basically means that a spinning mass (like a
motorcycle
wheel) generates a force equal to it's mass x velocity squared
that is
90 degrees to gravitational forces. In the case of a motorcycle or
bicycle this force is transmitted to the axle ... again, 90 degrees in
direction relative to gravitational forces.

At speed, you could snap one of the forks off your bike and it would
still want to stay upright and going straight ... until you slowed
down
of course and the forces generated by gyroscopic precession aren't
enough to overcome gravity's desire to throw you and the bike on it's
side.

In the case of a motorcycle or even a bicycle, that force is much,
much
greater than the weight of you leaning over to one side, which is why,
as John said, at speed you could lean over and tie your shoe and the
bike will still keep going straight.

At speed a gyroscope (or motorcycle) requires an additional force to
cause it to change it's axis of rotation (like making a turn or
cornering). That force is supplied by counter steering. On a street
bike cruising down the road and going around a corner the amount of
counter steer is just about in-perceptual to the rider, but has to
occur. Otherwise the bike would keep going straight.



I already stipulated to all of that long ago... John said you are
countersteering "through" the corner... it's different than what we
were
talking about....Me and you were on the same page from the beginning,
just didn't communicate it correctly...


I don't think we are on the same page. As long as that "corner" exists
and you desire to follow it, you are counter-steering relative to going
straight. Proof is this (except I am not going to try it). Halfway
through a "corner" or turn, what would happen if you suddenly put both
hands up in the air. What's going to happen? Are you going to continue
following the curve as you seem to suggest or are you going to suddenly
start going straight halfway through it and go off the road?

I'd think about it before you answer.

Not what I am saying at all, exactly the opposite. It's a symantics
issue for me, can't seem to get my point across... Anyway, not really
worth it just wasted my day with John thinking I was actually having a
serious discussion.. But I guess I will have to just let him screw with
harry and loogie if that's what he's here for...


Why are you getting all defensive and accusatory? It was a decent
thread except you are applying very specific examples that relate to the
type of riding done on a dirt track as being the "rule" for all bike
riding.

I think I understand how you got there, based on numerous things you
said that again, relate to dirt bikes on a track but not to the physics
and requirement to "counter-steer" *through* a turn unless you break the
rear wheel free and "slide" or "drift" through the turn. That's a
different animal altogether. In your examples, the bike's rear wheel is
constantly and fluidly lining up to the direction of desire travel. Make
sense?

On the road, John is absolutely correct. In order to navigate a turn,
constant counter-steering is required. You don't "set up" for the turn
or curve with a little counter-steering, then take it off while your
bike naturally follows the turn.

The thing is, most riders don't even realize that they are
counter-steering. Depending on speed and acuteness of the curve, the
amount applied is minor and is very natural and intuitive.
Most people don't even realize they are doing it.

Which is why I posed the original question in the first post of this
thread. It had nothing to do with dirt bikes sliding through a turn.







OK, so you are saying that when you are in a left hand corner you are
pushing on the left bar and your front tire is turned to the right in
comparison to the centerline of the bike????

countersteering...
 

On 2/13/2014 7:56 PM, KC wrote:
On 2/13/2014 7:50 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/13/2014 7:33 PM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 19:05:45 -0500, KC wrote:

On 2/13/2014 6:11 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/13/2014 5:07 PM, KC wrote:
On 2/13/2014 5:02 PM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 16:37:10 -0500, KC
wrote:

On 2/13/2014 4:04 PM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 15:29:25 -0500, KC
wrote:

On 2/13/2014 12:16 PM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 10:20:32 -0500, KC
wrote:

On 2/13/2014 10:13 AM, KC wrote:
On 2/13/2014 8:17 AM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 23:39:23 -0500, KC

wrote:

On 2/12/2014 11:22 PM, KC wrote:
On 2/12/2014 8:13 PM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 19:14:08 -0500, KC
wrote:




https://www.google.com/search?q=gpx+corner&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=x ev7Upn5IoSMqQGT-IGgBA&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAg&biw=1366&bih=667#q=motorcycl e+corner&tbm=isch







nd the rear tire is tracking inside
the track of the front tire..

There may be a couple exceptions such as corners that
are too
sharp for
normal tracking... Again, those tracks are made for
drifting/countersteering so they will be faster in that
mode..

All of 'em.



https://www.google.com/search?q=gpx+corner&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=x ev7Upn5IoSMqQGT-IGgBA&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAg&biw=1366&bih=667#q=motorcycl e+corner&tbm=isch






Please John, end the madness... Take a second and go to the
link
above
and post a quick link of the motorcycle you see in the first
say,
half
of the page where the front wheel is turned away from the
radius
and the
rear tire is tracking outside the front tire radius... or what
you call
countersteering. You said all of 'em. Apparently you don't know
what
countersteering really is....

I've already answered it. They got to where they are by
countersteering. They are staying in the
turn because they are pushing on the handlebar corresponding to
the direction of the turn. Push
left, go left. Push right, go right.

Here, now you look at something.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivwZ_DEFHrc


No question there... I had that save my ass on my CB500 Twin
which
supposedly had a "Triumph" style front end. I hit a huge chunk of
frozen
slush and it kicked my tire out so I got loose, and let the thing
swing
back and fourth till it stood itself back up, I pulled over and
cleaned
my pants out... literally...

I understand the technique completely, no issue there I have a
high
level of what they call three dimensional comprehension... I
actually
see the forces of water and gyros, etc in my head when I
design, I
used
to see how water would work around boat hulls when I drew them
and
where
the drag would be etc... Put it in the computer and it was right,
used
to talk about it a lot with my engineer bud in Gloucester...

Anyway, to countersteering (which I believe in:)

It's not a question of belief, It's what is.

My only point is I
"can" initiate a turn without countersteering by meerely
shifting my
weight before initiating the turn.

Very often it seems like a lean is initiating the turn, but in
reality it's the pressure you're
putting on the handlebar when you lean. For example, if I don't
exert any pressure on the handlebar,
I can lean over and pull my pants leg down without making a turn.
Have you never done that? Oh, I
suppose you could lean enough to change lanes on the highway, but
you'd not want to try taking any
sharp curves that way.

At the same time I also understand
that in the emergency situation when you don't have time to set
up,
the
countersteer is the only way to start the turn... You see, I get
it, but
still like the guy in your vid said... "The countersteer
initiates
the
turn, but the gyro effect immediately corrects it"...

The gyro effect immediately brings the bike back up - if the
countersteering is stopped - i.e., no
more pressure on the handle bar. If the pushing on the bar is
continued, the bike will lean more and
turn more sharply.

or you would
really be on the pavement... If you are countersteering through
the
corner (over riding the natural "steering force" tendency to
"correct"),
you are sliding the back tire sideways and scrubbing off
speed....

Totally wrong. If your speed is too fast for the turn, *then* you
may slide the rear tire. The force
on the handlebar (the countersteering force) is continued until
you
are ready to straigten up and
come out of the turn. Then the push is relaxed and the bike
corrects
itself - comes back to the
vertical.

Sliding at speed is *not* the way to turn corners.


I get it but how can you counter steer "through a corner"? None
of the
bikes in my link have the bars turned away from the radius... The
only
bikes I know that "counter steer" though a corner are these
types of
bikes that run on ice and dirt. If you skip to the 1:05 minute
mark and
watch this corner, you will see motorcycles counter steering
"through" a
corner. As we determined earlier. The front wheel is turned
"away" from
the radius of the turn, and the rear tire is sliding in a radius
outside
the radius of the front tire...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqUnhTpbtSM



... as opposed to these guys who are clearly *not* counter steering
"through" a corner... as very clear if you skip to the 2 minute
mark
and
watch the yellow bike on the right of the frame... It's front
tire is
turned into the radius, and the rear tire is not sliding
sideways, but
tracking forward in the direction of the turn, ideally slightly
inside
the radius of the front tire... this bike is "steering" not counter
steering... as in the video of the flat trackers above...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjSXehuADx4


Period...

You're right. I made all that **** up.


No John, you are just not letting your emotion and ego, look at the
pictures, and listen to the words. You said "through" the corner, I
showed you two distinct versions, one steering, one counter steering
Take a breath and go look at 1:05 into the first vid, and 2:01 in the
second.... Pause them and just frekin' look......


Friendly suggestion. You might want to hold off on your condemnations
until you read and think about this a little more.



Dick, it's pretty simple. You were talking about starting a turn,
and we
miscommunicated but we are both on the same page there.... John said
something totally different, said they are countersteering "through"
that's THROUGH the corner, which is what I was saying was incorrect....

Yup. Start and through. Once you let up, you straighten up.

Amen.



I think maybe I know why Scott thinks counter-steering is not required
*through* the turn. In his world of dirt bike racing they often
"slide" through a turn, so the rear wheel is constantly re-aligning to
the direction they want to go. That's why he keeps talking about
"thrust" and "steering with the rear wheel". I can understand that.
It's a constant, fluid redirection of the rear wheel relative to the
curve or "corner" as he puts it.

In our world of riding a bike we don't "slide" around a corner ... at
least not on purpose. In order to maintain a direction that follows the
curve, counter-steering is applied *throughout* the curve. It has to,
otherwise you'd go off the road.

Those pictures he referenced with the front wheel turned in an
exaggerated way is *not* counter-steering.

But, whatever floats his boat. He apparently knows all and sees all.
Too bad he's teaching physics to kids though.



So, you are saying that through a left turn, you are putting pressure on
the left bar turning it away from the radius of the turn, or right in
relation to the centerline of the bike?

Yup.

countersteering...
 

On 2/13/2014 8:09 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:


So, you are saying that through a left turn, you are putting pressure on
the left bar turning it away from the radius of the turn, or right in
relation to the centerline of the bike?

Yup.


Check out this picture.. it clearly looks to me like the guy is turning
right, and his front forks are clearly turned right too.. more pressure
on the left bar...

http://images.motorcycle-usa.com/Pho...n-9-72-dpi.jpg

So you are saying the bars here are actually turned left, I just can't
see it??

countersteering...
 

On 2/13/2014 8:06 PM, KC wrote:
On 2/13/2014 7:50 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/13/2014 7:33 PM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 19:05:45 -0500, KC wrote:

On 2/13/2014 6:11 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/13/2014 5:07 PM, KC wrote:
On 2/13/2014 5:02 PM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 16:37:10 -0500, KC
wrote:

On 2/13/2014 4:04 PM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 15:29:25 -0500, KC
wrote:

On 2/13/2014 12:16 PM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 10:20:32 -0500, KC
wrote:

On 2/13/2014 10:13 AM, KC wrote:
On 2/13/2014 8:17 AM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 23:39:23 -0500, KC

wrote:

On 2/12/2014 11:22 PM, KC wrote:
On 2/12/2014 8:13 PM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 19:14:08 -0500, KC
wrote:




https://www.google.com/search?q=gpx+corner&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=x ev7Upn5IoSMqQGT-IGgBA&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAg&biw=1366&bih=667#q=motorcycl e+corner&tbm=isch







nd the rear tire is tracking inside
the track of the front tire..

There may be a couple exceptions such as corners that
are too
sharp for
normal tracking... Again, those tracks are made for
drifting/countersteering so they will be faster in that
mode..

All of 'em.



https://www.google.com/search?q=gpx+corner&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=x ev7Upn5IoSMqQGT-IGgBA&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAg&biw=1366&bih=667#q=motorcycl e+corner&tbm=isch






Please John, end the madness... Take a second and go to the
link
above
and post a quick link of the motorcycle you see in the first
say,
half
of the page where the front wheel is turned away from the
radius
and the
rear tire is tracking outside the front tire radius... or what
you call
countersteering. You said all of 'em. Apparently you don't know
what
countersteering really is....

I've already answered it. They got to where they are by
countersteering. They are staying in the
turn because they are pushing on the handlebar corresponding to
the direction of the turn. Push
left, go left. Push right, go right.

Here, now you look at something.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivwZ_DEFHrc


No question there... I had that save my ass on my CB500 Twin
which
supposedly had a "Triumph" style front end. I hit a huge chunk of
frozen
slush and it kicked my tire out so I got loose, and let the thing
swing
back and fourth till it stood itself back up, I pulled over and
cleaned
my pants out... literally...

I understand the technique completely, no issue there I have a
high
level of what they call three dimensional comprehension... I
actually
see the forces of water and gyros, etc in my head when I
design, I
used
to see how water would work around boat hulls when I drew them
and
where
the drag would be etc... Put it in the computer and it was right,
used
to talk about it a lot with my engineer bud in Gloucester...

Anyway, to countersteering (which I believe in:)

It's not a question of belief, It's what is.

My only point is I
"can" initiate a turn without countersteering by meerely
shifting my
weight before initiating the turn.

Very often it seems like a lean is initiating the turn, but in
reality it's the pressure you're
putting on the handlebar when you lean. For example, if I don't
exert any pressure on the handlebar,
I can lean over and pull my pants leg down without making a turn.
Have you never done that? Oh, I
suppose you could lean enough to change lanes on the highway, but
you'd not want to try taking any
sharp curves that way.

At the same time I also understand
that in the emergency situation when you don't have time to set
up,
the
countersteer is the only way to start the turn... You see, I get
it, but
still like the guy in your vid said... "The countersteer
initiates
the
turn, but the gyro effect immediately corrects it"...

The gyro effect immediately brings the bike back up - if the
countersteering is stopped - i.e., no
more pressure on the handle bar. If the pushing on the bar is
continued, the bike will lean more and
turn more sharply.

or you would
really be on the pavement... If you are countersteering through
the
corner (over riding the natural "steering force" tendency to
"correct"),
you are sliding the back tire sideways and scrubbing off
speed....

Totally wrong. If your speed is too fast for the turn, *then* you
may slide the rear tire. The force
on the handlebar (the countersteering force) is continued until
you
are ready to straigten up and
come out of the turn. Then the push is relaxed and the bike
corrects
itself - comes back to the
vertical.

Sliding at speed is *not* the way to turn corners.


I get it but how can you counter steer "through a corner"? None
of the
bikes in my link have the bars turned away from the radius... The
only
bikes I know that "counter steer" though a corner are these
types of
bikes that run on ice and dirt. If you skip to the 1:05 minute
mark and
watch this corner, you will see motorcycles counter steering
"through" a
corner. As we determined earlier. The front wheel is turned
"away" from
the radius of the turn, and the rear tire is sliding in a radius
outside
the radius of the front tire...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqUnhTpbtSM



... as opposed to these guys who are clearly *not* counter steering
"through" a corner... as very clear if you skip to the 2 minute
mark
and
watch the yellow bike on the right of the frame... It's front
tire is
turned into the radius, and the rear tire is not sliding
sideways, but
tracking forward in the direction of the turn, ideally slightly
inside
the radius of the front tire... this bike is "steering" not counter
steering... as in the video of the flat trackers above...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjSXehuADx4


Period...

You're right. I made all that **** up.


No John, you are just not letting your emotion and ego, look at the
pictures, and listen to the words. You said "through" the corner, I
showed you two distinct versions, one steering, one counter steering
Take a breath and go look at 1:05 into the first vid, and 2:01 in the
second.... Pause them and just frekin' look......


Friendly suggestion. You might want to hold off on your condemnations
until you read and think about this a little more.



Dick, it's pretty simple. You were talking about starting a turn,
and we
miscommunicated but we are both on the same page there.... John said
something totally different, said they are countersteering "through"
that's THROUGH the corner, which is what I was saying was incorrect....

Yup. Start and through. Once you let up, you straighten up.

Amen.



I think maybe I know why Scott thinks counter-steering is not required
*through* the turn. In his world of dirt bike racing they often
"slide" through a turn,


and there are times when we don't... Either way, you can both steer, and
counter steer with the back end sliding. The difference is when the rear
end moves to the outside of the center line of the front forks (front
tire).. I showed two examples earlier. One gp bike steering through a
corner, one an flat tracker, counter steering through...

I will ask you one question I asked John. Show me which of these bikes
is "counter-steering" and don't say all of them. Pick one, post the link
to the picture and explain how the specific bike in that picture is
counter-steering even though the front tire in all of those bikes are
turned *into* the radius in comparison to the centerline of the bike...

https://www.google.com/search?q=gpx+corner&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=x ev7Upn5IoSMqQGT-IGgBA&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAg&biw=1366&bih=667#q=motorcycl e+corner&tbm=isch


Cause I don't see any of the bikes above with the front tire turned away
from the radius...





I'll answer your question but this will be the last comment I have on
this thread.

It's not possible to detect the amount of counter-steering applied by
looking at a picture. It's only enough to keep the bike following the
curve (which isn't much). You're not going to see an exaggerated fork
or wheel turn.

When following a car, that is making a turn at relatively high speed ...
like following the curve of an entrance to a major divided highway...
have you ever noticed how *very* slightly the front wheels are turned to
stay on the curve? Now, this has nothing to do with counter-steering
on a bike but it illustrates how little a wheel/tire has to turn to make
a turn at speed.

The riders in your pics ... the ones who are taking a curve but are not
"sliding" (meaning the rear wheel is still in line with the front) are
*all* counter-steering to make that turn. You are looking for some
extreme representation of it that can be seen on the front wheel or
handlebars. It's not like that.

countersteering...
 

On 2/13/2014 8:17 PM, KC wrote:
On 2/13/2014 8:09 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:


So, you are saying that through a left turn, you are putting pressure on
the left bar turning it away from the radius of the turn, or right in
relation to the centerline of the bike?

Yup.


Check out this picture.. it clearly looks to me like the guy is turning
right, and his front forks are clearly turned right too.. more pressure
on the left bar...

http://images.motorcycle-usa.com/Pho...n-9-72-dpi.jpg


So you are saying the bars here are actually turned left, I just can't
see it??



Here. I zoomed in and blow the image up a little.

He's making a right turn.
If you look very closely, he has the *right* handle bar pushed slightly
more forward than the left. Look at his arm angles. Counter-steering.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/6yt295qhu22ndr0/Alex-Gobert-2.jpg

countersteering...
 

On 2/13/2014 8:19 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/13/2014 8:06 PM, KC wrote:
On 2/13/2014 7:50 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/13/2014 7:33 PM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 19:05:45 -0500, KC wrote:

On 2/13/2014 6:11 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/13/2014 5:07 PM, KC wrote:
On 2/13/2014 5:02 PM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 16:37:10 -0500, KC
wrote:

On 2/13/2014 4:04 PM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 15:29:25 -0500, KC
wrote:

On 2/13/2014 12:16 PM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 10:20:32 -0500, KC
wrote:

On 2/13/2014 10:13 AM, KC wrote:
On 2/13/2014 8:17 AM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 23:39:23 -0500, KC

wrote:

On 2/12/2014 11:22 PM, KC wrote:
On 2/12/2014 8:13 PM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 19:14:08 -0500, KC
wrote:




https://www.google.com/search?q=gpx+corner&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=x ev7Upn5IoSMqQGT-IGgBA&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAg&biw=1366&bih=667#q=motorcycl e+corner&tbm=isch








nd the rear tire is tracking inside
the track of the front tire..

There may be a couple exceptions such as corners that
are too
sharp for
normal tracking... Again, those tracks are made for
drifting/countersteering so they will be faster in that
mode..

All of 'em.



https://www.google.com/search?q=gpx+corner&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=x ev7Upn5IoSMqQGT-IGgBA&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAg&biw=1366&bih=667#q=motorcycl e+corner&tbm=isch







Please John, end the madness... Take a second and go to the
link
above
and post a quick link of the motorcycle you see in the first
say,
half
of the page where the front wheel is turned away from the
radius
and the
rear tire is tracking outside the front tire radius... or what
you call
countersteering. You said all of 'em. Apparently you don't
know
what
countersteering really is....

I've already answered it. They got to where they are by
countersteering. They are staying in the
turn because they are pushing on the handlebar corresponding to
the direction of the turn. Push
left, go left. Push right, go right.

Here, now you look at something.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivwZ_DEFHrc


No question there... I had that save my ass on my CB500 Twin
which
supposedly had a "Triumph" style front end. I hit a huge
chunk of
frozen
slush and it kicked my tire out so I got loose, and let the
thing
swing
back and fourth till it stood itself back up, I pulled over and
cleaned
my pants out... literally...

I understand the technique completely, no issue there I have a
high
level of what they call three dimensional comprehension... I
actually
see the forces of water and gyros, etc in my head when I
design, I
used
to see how water would work around boat hulls when I drew them
and
where
the drag would be etc... Put it in the computer and it was
right,
used
to talk about it a lot with my engineer bud in Gloucester...

Anyway, to countersteering (which I believe in:)

It's not a question of belief, It's what is.

My only point is I
"can" initiate a turn without countersteering by meerely
shifting my
weight before initiating the turn.

Very often it seems like a lean is initiating the turn, but in
reality it's the pressure you're
putting on the handlebar when you lean. For example, if I don't
exert any pressure on the handlebar,
I can lean over and pull my pants leg down without making a turn.
Have you never done that? Oh, I
suppose you could lean enough to change lanes on the highway, but
you'd not want to try taking any
sharp curves that way.

At the same time I also understand
that in the emergency situation when you don't have time to set
up,
the
countersteer is the only way to start the turn... You see, I get
it, but
still like the guy in your vid said... "The countersteer
initiates
the
turn, but the gyro effect immediately corrects it"...

The gyro effect immediately brings the bike back up - if the
countersteering is stopped - i.e., no
more pressure on the handle bar. If the pushing on the bar is
continued, the bike will lean more and
turn more sharply.

or you would
really be on the pavement... If you are countersteering through
the
corner (over riding the natural "steering force" tendency to
"correct"),
you are sliding the back tire sideways and scrubbing off
speed....

Totally wrong. If your speed is too fast for the turn, *then* you
may slide the rear tire. The force
on the handlebar (the countersteering force) is continued until
you
are ready to straigten up and
come out of the turn. Then the push is relaxed and the bike
corrects
itself - comes back to the
vertical.

Sliding at speed is *not* the way to turn corners.


I get it but how can you counter steer "through a corner"? None
of the
bikes in my link have the bars turned away from the radius... The
only
bikes I know that "counter steer" though a corner are these
types of
bikes that run on ice and dirt. If you skip to the 1:05 minute
mark and
watch this corner, you will see motorcycles counter steering
"through" a
corner. As we determined earlier. The front wheel is turned
"away" from
the radius of the turn, and the rear tire is sliding in a radius
outside
the radius of the front tire...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqUnhTpbtSM



... as opposed to these guys who are clearly *not* counter
steering
"through" a corner... as very clear if you skip to the 2 minute
mark
and
watch the yellow bike on the right of the frame... It's front
tire is
turned into the radius, and the rear tire is not sliding
sideways, but
tracking forward in the direction of the turn, ideally slightly
inside
the radius of the front tire... this bike is "steering" not
counter
steering... as in the video of the flat trackers above...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjSXehuADx4


Period...

You're right. I made all that **** up.


No John, you are just not letting your emotion and ego, look at the
pictures, and listen to the words. You said "through" the corner, I
showed you two distinct versions, one steering, one counter steering
Take a breath and go look at 1:05 into the first vid, and 2:01 in
the
second.... Pause them and just frekin' look......


Friendly suggestion. You might want to hold off on your
condemnations
until you read and think about this a little more.



Dick, it's pretty simple. You were talking about starting a turn,
and we
miscommunicated but we are both on the same page there.... John said
something totally different, said they are countersteering "through"
that's THROUGH the corner, which is what I was saying was
incorrect....

Yup. Start and through. Once you let up, you straighten up.

Amen.



I think maybe I know why Scott thinks counter-steering is not required
*through* the turn. In his world of dirt bike racing they often
"slide" through a turn,


and there are times when we don't... Either way, you can both steer, and
counter steer with the back end sliding. The difference is when the rear
end moves to the outside of the center line of the front forks (front
tire).. I showed two examples earlier. One gp bike steering through a
corner, one an flat tracker, counter steering through...

I will ask you one question I asked John. Show me which of these bikes
is "counter-steering" and don't say all of them. Pick one, post the link
to the picture and explain how the specific bike in that picture is
counter-steering even though the front tire in all of those bikes are
turned *into* the radius in comparison to the centerline of the bike...

https://www.google.com/search?q=gpx+corner&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=x ev7Upn5IoSMqQGT-IGgBA&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAg&biw=1366&bih=667#q=motorcycl e+corner&tbm=isch



Cause I don't see any of the bikes above with the front tire turned away
from the radius...





I'll answer your question but this will be the last comment I have on
this thread.

It's not possible to detect the amount of counter-steering applied by
looking at a picture. It's only enough to keep the bike following the
curve (which isn't much). You're not going to see an exaggerated fork
or wheel turn.

When following a car, that is making a turn at relatively high speed ...
like following the curve of an entrance to a major divided highway...
have you ever noticed how *very* slightly the front wheels are turned to
stay on the curve? Now, this has nothing to do with counter-steering
on a bike but it illustrates how little a wheel/tire has to turn to make
a turn at speed.

The riders in your pics ... the ones who are taking a curve but are not
"sliding" (meaning the rear wheel is still in line with the front) are
*all* counter-steering to make that turn. You are looking for some
extreme representation of it that can be seen on the front wheel or
handlebars. It's not like that.




Then the whole day was wasted comparing apples to oranges.. John said it
was when the front tire was turned away from the radius....

countersteering...
 

On 2/13/2014 8:32 PM, KC wrote:
On 2/13/2014 8:19 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/13/2014 8:06 PM, KC wrote:
On 2/13/2014 7:50 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/13/2014 7:33 PM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 19:05:45 -0500, KC wrote:

On 2/13/2014 6:11 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/13/2014 5:07 PM, KC wrote:
On 2/13/2014 5:02 PM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 16:37:10 -0500, KC
wrote:

On 2/13/2014 4:04 PM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 15:29:25 -0500, KC
wrote:

On 2/13/2014 12:16 PM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 10:20:32 -0500, KC
wrote:

On 2/13/2014 10:13 AM, KC wrote:
On 2/13/2014 8:17 AM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 23:39:23 -0500, KC

wrote:

On 2/12/2014 11:22 PM, KC wrote:
On 2/12/2014 8:13 PM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 19:14:08 -0500, KC
wrote:




https://www.google.com/search?q=gpx+corner&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=x ev7Upn5IoSMqQGT-IGgBA&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAg&biw=1366&bih=667#q=motorcycl e+corner&tbm=isch









nd the rear tire is tracking inside
the track of the front tire..

There may be a couple exceptions such as corners that
are too
sharp for
normal tracking... Again, those tracks are made for
drifting/countersteering so they will be faster in that
mode..

All of 'em.



https://www.google.com/search?q=gpx+corner&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=x ev7Upn5IoSMqQGT-IGgBA&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAg&biw=1366&bih=667#q=motorcycl e+corner&tbm=isch








Please John, end the madness... Take a second and go to the
link
above
and post a quick link of the motorcycle you see in the first
say,
half
of the page where the front wheel is turned away from the
radius
and the
rear tire is tracking outside the front tire radius... or
what
you call
countersteering. You said all of 'em. Apparently you don't
know
what
countersteering really is....

I've already answered it. They got to where they are by
countersteering. They are staying in the
turn because they are pushing on the handlebar
corresponding to
the direction of the turn. Push
left, go left. Push right, go right.

Here, now you look at something.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivwZ_DEFHrc


No question there... I had that save my ass on my CB500 Twin
which
supposedly had a "Triumph" style front end. I hit a huge
chunk of
frozen
slush and it kicked my tire out so I got loose, and let the
thing
swing
back and fourth till it stood itself back up, I pulled over and
cleaned
my pants out... literally...

I understand the technique completely, no issue there I have a
high
level of what they call three dimensional comprehension... I
actually
see the forces of water and gyros, etc in my head when I
design, I
used
to see how water would work around boat hulls when I drew them
and
where
the drag would be etc... Put it in the computer and it was
right,
used
to talk about it a lot with my engineer bud in Gloucester...

Anyway, to countersteering (which I believe in:)

It's not a question of belief, It's what is.

My only point is I
"can" initiate a turn without countersteering by meerely
shifting my
weight before initiating the turn.

Very often it seems like a lean is initiating the turn, but in
reality it's the pressure you're
putting on the handlebar when you lean. For example, if I don't
exert any pressure on the handlebar,
I can lean over and pull my pants leg down without making a
turn.
Have you never done that? Oh, I
suppose you could lean enough to change lanes on the highway,
but
you'd not want to try taking any
sharp curves that way.

At the same time I also understand
that in the emergency situation when you don't have time to set
up,
the
countersteer is the only way to start the turn... You see, I
get
it, but
still like the guy in your vid said... "The countersteer
initiates
the
turn, but the gyro effect immediately corrects it"...

The gyro effect immediately brings the bike back up - if the
countersteering is stopped - i.e., no
more pressure on the handle bar. If the pushing on the bar is
continued, the bike will lean more and
turn more sharply.

or you would
really be on the pavement... If you are countersteering through
the
corner (over riding the natural "steering force" tendency to
"correct"),
you are sliding the back tire sideways and scrubbing off
speed....

Totally wrong. If your speed is too fast for the turn, *then*
you
may slide the rear tire. The force
on the handlebar (the countersteering force) is continued until
you
are ready to straigten up and
come out of the turn. Then the push is relaxed and the bike
corrects
itself - comes back to the
vertical.

Sliding at speed is *not* the way to turn corners.


I get it but how can you counter steer "through a corner"? None
of the
bikes in my link have the bars turned away from the radius... The
only
bikes I know that "counter steer" though a corner are these
types of
bikes that run on ice and dirt. If you skip to the 1:05 minute
mark and
watch this corner, you will see motorcycles counter steering
"through" a
corner. As we determined earlier. The front wheel is turned
"away" from
the radius of the turn, and the rear tire is sliding in a radius
outside
the radius of the front tire...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqUnhTpbtSM



... as opposed to these guys who are clearly *not* counter
steering
"through" a corner... as very clear if you skip to the 2 minute
mark
and
watch the yellow bike on the right of the frame... It's front
tire is
turned into the radius, and the rear tire is not sliding
sideways, but
tracking forward in the direction of the turn, ideally slightly
inside
the radius of the front tire... this bike is "steering" not
counter
steering... as in the video of the flat trackers above...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjSXehuADx4


Period...

You're right. I made all that **** up.


No John, you are just not letting your emotion and ego, look at the
pictures, and listen to the words. You said "through" the corner, I
showed you two distinct versions, one steering, one counter
steering
Take a breath and go look at 1:05 into the first vid, and 2:01 in
the
second.... Pause them and just frekin' look......


Friendly suggestion. You might want to hold off on your
condemnations
until you read and think about this a little more.



Dick, it's pretty simple. You were talking about starting a turn,
and we
miscommunicated but we are both on the same page there.... John said
something totally different, said they are countersteering "through"
that's THROUGH the corner, which is what I was saying was
incorrect....

Yup. Start and through. Once you let up, you straighten up.

Amen.



I think maybe I know why Scott thinks counter-steering is not required
*through* the turn. In his world of dirt bike racing they often
"slide" through a turn,


and there are times when we don't... Either way, you can both steer, and
counter steer with the back end sliding. The difference is when the rear
end moves to the outside of the center line of the front forks (front
tire).. I showed two examples earlier. One gp bike steering through a
corner, one an flat tracker, counter steering through...

I will ask you one question I asked John. Show me which of these bikes
is "counter-steering" and don't say all of them. Pick one, post the link
to the picture and explain how the specific bike in that picture is
counter-steering even though the front tire in all of those bikes are
turned *into* the radius in comparison to the centerline of the bike...

https://www.google.com/search?q=gpx+corner&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=x ev7Upn5IoSMqQGT-IGgBA&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAg&biw=1366&bih=667#q=motorcycl e+corner&tbm=isch




Cause I don't see any of the bikes above with the front tire turned away
from the radius...





I'll answer your question but this will be the last comment I have on
this thread.

It's not possible to detect the amount of counter-steering applied by
looking at a picture. It's only enough to keep the bike following the
curve (which isn't much). You're not going to see an exaggerated fork
or wheel turn.

When following a car, that is making a turn at relatively high speed ...
like following the curve of an entrance to a major divided highway...
have you ever noticed how *very* slightly the front wheels are turned to
stay on the curve? Now, this has nothing to do with counter-steering
on a bike but it illustrates how little a wheel/tire has to turn to make
a turn at speed.

The riders in your pics ... the ones who are taking a curve but are not
"sliding" (meaning the rear wheel is still in line with the front) are
*all* counter-steering to make that turn. You are looking for some
extreme representation of it that can be seen on the front wheel or
handlebars. It's not like that.




Then the whole day was wasted comparing apples to oranges.. John said it
was when the front tire was turned away from the radius....


It *is*. Very, very slightly and really not perceptible in a photo.

countersteering...
 

On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 19:50:47 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 2/13/2014 7:33 PM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 19:05:45 -0500, KC wrote:

On 2/13/2014 6:11 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/13/2014 5:07 PM, KC wrote:
On 2/13/2014 5:02 PM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 16:37:10 -0500, KC wrote:

On 2/13/2014 4:04 PM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 15:29:25 -0500, KC wrote:

On 2/13/2014 12:16 PM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 10:20:32 -0500, KC
wrote:

On 2/13/2014 10:13 AM, KC wrote:
On 2/13/2014 8:17 AM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 23:39:23 -0500, KC
wrote:

On 2/12/2014 11:22 PM, KC wrote:
On 2/12/2014 8:13 PM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 19:14:08 -0500, KC
wrote:




https://www.google.com/search?q=gpx+corner&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=x ev7Upn5IoSMqQGT-IGgBA&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAg&biw=1366&bih=667#q=motorcycl e+corner&tbm=isch





nd the rear tire is tracking inside
the track of the front tire..

There may be a couple exceptions such as corners that are too
sharp for
normal tracking... Again, those tracks are made for
drifting/countersteering so they will be faster in that
mode..

All of 'em.



https://www.google.com/search?q=gpx+corner&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=x ev7Upn5IoSMqQGT-IGgBA&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAg&biw=1366&bih=667#q=motorcycl e+corner&tbm=isch




Please John, end the madness... Take a second and go to the link
above
and post a quick link of the motorcycle you see in the first say,
half
of the page where the front wheel is turned away from the radius
and the
rear tire is tracking outside the front tire radius... or what
you call
countersteering. You said all of 'em. Apparently you don't know
what
countersteering really is....

I've already answered it. They got to where they are by
countersteering. They are staying in the
turn because they are pushing on the handlebar corresponding to
the direction of the turn. Push
left, go left. Push right, go right.

Here, now you look at something.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivwZ_DEFHrc


No question there... I had that save my ass on my CB500 Twin which
supposedly had a "Triumph" style front end. I hit a huge chunk of
frozen
slush and it kicked my tire out so I got loose, and let the thing
swing
back and fourth till it stood itself back up, I pulled over and
cleaned
my pants out... literally...

I understand the technique completely, no issue there I have a high
level of what they call three dimensional comprehension... I actually
see the forces of water and gyros, etc in my head when I design, I
used
to see how water would work around boat hulls when I drew them and
where
the drag would be etc... Put it in the computer and it was right,
used
to talk about it a lot with my engineer bud in Gloucester...

Anyway, to countersteering (which I believe in:)

It's not a question of belief, It's what is.

My only point is I
"can" initiate a turn without countersteering by meerely shifting my
weight before initiating the turn.

Very often it seems like a lean is initiating the turn, but in
reality it's the pressure you're
putting on the handlebar when you lean. For example, if I don't
exert any pressure on the handlebar,
I can lean over and pull my pants leg down without making a turn.
Have you never done that? Oh, I
suppose you could lean enough to change lanes on the highway, but
you'd not want to try taking any
sharp curves that way.

At the same time I also understand
that in the emergency situation when you don't have time to set up,
the
countersteer is the only way to start the turn... You see, I get
it, but
still like the guy in your vid said... "The countersteer initiates
the
turn, but the gyro effect immediately corrects it"...

The gyro effect immediately brings the bike back up - if the
countersteering is stopped - i.e., no
more pressure on the handle bar. If the pushing on the bar is
continued, the bike will lean more and
turn more sharply.

or you would
really be on the pavement... If you are countersteering through the
corner (over riding the natural "steering force" tendency to
"correct"),
you are sliding the back tire sideways and scrubbing off speed....

Totally wrong. If your speed is too fast for the turn, *then* you
may slide the rear tire. The force
on the handlebar (the countersteering force) is continued until you
are ready to straigten up and
come out of the turn. Then the push is relaxed and the bike corrects
itself - comes back to the
vertical.

Sliding at speed is *not* the way to turn corners.


I get it but how can you counter steer "through a corner"? None of the
bikes in my link have the bars turned away from the radius... The only
bikes I know that "counter steer" though a corner are these types of
bikes that run on ice and dirt. If you skip to the 1:05 minute mark and
watch this corner, you will see motorcycles counter steering
"through" a
corner. As we determined earlier. The front wheel is turned "away" from
the radius of the turn, and the rear tire is sliding in a radius
outside
the radius of the front tire...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqUnhTpbtSM



... as opposed to these guys who are clearly *not* counter steering
"through" a corner... as very clear if you skip to the 2 minute mark
and
watch the yellow bike on the right of the frame... It's front tire is
turned into the radius, and the rear tire is not sliding sideways, but
tracking forward in the direction of the turn, ideally slightly inside
the radius of the front tire... this bike is "steering" not counter
steering... as in the video of the flat trackers above...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjSXehuADx4


Period...

You're right. I made all that **** up.


No John, you are just not letting your emotion and ego, look at the
pictures, and listen to the words. You said "through" the corner, I
showed you two distinct versions, one steering, one counter steering
Take a breath and go look at 1:05 into the first vid, and 2:01 in the
second.... Pause them and just frekin' look......


Friendly suggestion. You might want to hold off on your condemnations
until you read and think about this a little more.



Dick, it's pretty simple. You were talking about starting a turn, and we
miscommunicated but we are both on the same page there.... John said
something totally different, said they are countersteering "through"
that's THROUGH the corner, which is what I was saying was incorrect....

Yup. Start and through. Once you let up, you straighten up.

Amen.



I think maybe I know why Scott thinks counter-steering is not required
*through* the turn. In his world of dirt bike racing they often
"slide" through a turn, so the rear wheel is constantly re-aligning to
the direction they want to go. That's why he keeps talking about
"thrust" and "steering with the rear wheel". I can understand that.
It's a constant, fluid redirection of the rear wheel relative to the
curve or "corner" as he puts it.

I agree. That's why I've tried to stick to pavement talk. When he mentioned earlier the idea of
touching the front brake to help with a turn, I think he's transferring weight to the front end,
losing traction on the rear end, and able to 'slide' the rear wheel around. That would be the only
reason I can see to 'touch' the front brake, unless the bike's just going to damn fast.


In our world of riding a bike we don't "slide" around a corner ... at
least not on purpose. In order to maintain a direction that follows the
curve, counter-steering is applied *throughout* the curve. It has to,
otherwise you'd go off the road.

Those pictures he referenced with the front wheel turned in an
exaggerated way is *not* counter-steering.

But, whatever floats his boat. He apparently knows all and sees all.
Too bad he's teaching physics to kids though.

countersteering...
 

On 2/13/2014 8:30 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/13/2014 8:17 PM, KC wrote:
On 2/13/2014 8:09 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:


So, you are saying that through a left turn, you are putting
pressure on
the left bar turning it away from the radius of the turn, or right in
relation to the centerline of the bike?

Yup.


Check out this picture.. it clearly looks to me like the guy is turning
right, and his front forks are clearly turned right too.. more pressure
on the left bar...

http://images.motorcycle-usa.com/Pho...n-9-72-dpi.jpg



So you are saying the bars here are actually turned left, I just can't
see it??



Here. I zoomed in and blow the image up a little.

He's making a right turn.
If you look very closely, he has the *right* handle bar pushed slightly
more forward than the left. Look at his arm angles. Counter-steering.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/6yt295qhu22ndr0/Alex-Gobert-2.jpg

That front fork is not turned left... the front tire (and bars) are very
slightly turned right...

countersteering...
 

On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 20:32:20 -0500, KC wrote:

On 2/13/2014 8:19 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/13/2014 8:06 PM, KC wrote:
On 2/13/2014 7:50 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/13/2014 7:33 PM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 19:05:45 -0500, KC wrote:

On 2/13/2014 6:11 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/13/2014 5:07 PM, KC wrote:
On 2/13/2014 5:02 PM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 16:37:10 -0500, KC
wrote:

On 2/13/2014 4:04 PM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 15:29:25 -0500, KC
wrote:

On 2/13/2014 12:16 PM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 10:20:32 -0500, KC
wrote:

On 2/13/2014 10:13 AM, KC wrote:
On 2/13/2014 8:17 AM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 23:39:23 -0500, KC

wrote:

On 2/12/2014 11:22 PM, KC wrote:
On 2/12/2014 8:13 PM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 19:14:08 -0500, KC
wrote:




https://www.google.com/search?q=gpx+corner&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=x ev7Upn5IoSMqQGT-IGgBA&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAg&biw=1366&bih=667#q=motorcycl e+corner&tbm=isch








nd the rear tire is tracking inside
the track of the front tire..

There may be a couple exceptions such as corners that
are too
sharp for
normal tracking... Again, those tracks are made for
drifting/countersteering so they will be faster in that
mode..

All of 'em.



https://www.google.com/search?q=gpx+corner&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=x ev7Upn5IoSMqQGT-IGgBA&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAg&biw=1366&bih=667#q=motorcycl e+corner&tbm=isch







Please John, end the madness... Take a second and go to the
link
above
and post a quick link of the motorcycle you see in the first
say,
half
of the page where the front wheel is turned away from the
radius
and the
rear tire is tracking outside the front tire radius... or what
you call
countersteering. You said all of 'em. Apparently you don't
know
what
countersteering really is....

I've already answered it. They got to where they are by
countersteering. They are staying in the
turn because they are pushing on the handlebar corresponding to
the direction of the turn. Push
left, go left. Push right, go right.

Here, now you look at something.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivwZ_DEFHrc


No question there... I had that save my ass on my CB500 Twin
which
supposedly had a "Triumph" style front end. I hit a huge
chunk of
frozen
slush and it kicked my tire out so I got loose, and let the
thing
swing
back and fourth till it stood itself back up, I pulled over and
cleaned
my pants out... literally...

I understand the technique completely, no issue there I have a
high
level of what they call three dimensional comprehension... I
actually
see the forces of water and gyros, etc in my head when I
design, I
used
to see how water would work around boat hulls when I drew them
and
where
the drag would be etc... Put it in the computer and it was
right,
used
to talk about it a lot with my engineer bud in Gloucester...

Anyway, to countersteering (which I believe in:)

It's not a question of belief, It's what is.

My only point is I
"can" initiate a turn without countersteering by meerely
shifting my
weight before initiating the turn.

Very often it seems like a lean is initiating the turn, but in
reality it's the pressure you're
putting on the handlebar when you lean. For example, if I don't
exert any pressure on the handlebar,
I can lean over and pull my pants leg down without making a turn.
Have you never done that? Oh, I
suppose you could lean enough to change lanes on the highway, but
you'd not want to try taking any
sharp curves that way.

At the same time I also understand
that in the emergency situation when you don't have time to set
up,
the
countersteer is the only way to start the turn... You see, I get
it, but
still like the guy in your vid said... "The countersteer
initiates
the
turn, but the gyro effect immediately corrects it"...

The gyro effect immediately brings the bike back up - if the
countersteering is stopped - i.e., no
more pressure on the handle bar. If the pushing on the bar is
continued, the bike will lean more and
turn more sharply.

or you would
really be on the pavement... If you are countersteering through
the
corner (over riding the natural "steering force" tendency to
"correct"),
you are sliding the back tire sideways and scrubbing off
speed....

Totally wrong. If your speed is too fast for the turn, *then* you
may slide the rear tire. The force
on the handlebar (the countersteering force) is continued until
you
are ready to straigten up and
come out of the turn. Then the push is relaxed and the bike
corrects
itself - comes back to the
vertical.

Sliding at speed is *not* the way to turn corners.


I get it but how can you counter steer "through a corner"? None
of the
bikes in my link have the bars turned away from the radius... The
only
bikes I know that "counter steer" though a corner are these
types of
bikes that run on ice and dirt. If you skip to the 1:05 minute
mark and
watch this corner, you will see motorcycles counter steering
"through" a
corner. As we determined earlier. The front wheel is turned
"away" from
the radius of the turn, and the rear tire is sliding in a radius
outside
the radius of the front tire...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqUnhTpbtSM



... as opposed to these guys who are clearly *not* counter
steering
"through" a corner... as very clear if you skip to the 2 minute
mark
and
watch the yellow bike on the right of the frame... It's front
tire is
turned into the radius, and the rear tire is not sliding
sideways, but
tracking forward in the direction of the turn, ideally slightly
inside
the radius of the front tire... this bike is "steering" not
counter
steering... as in the video of the flat trackers above...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjSXehuADx4


Period...

You're right. I made all that **** up.


No John, you are just not letting your emotion and ego, look at the
pictures, and listen to the words. You said "through" the corner, I
showed you two distinct versions, one steering, one counter steering
Take a breath and go look at 1:05 into the first vid, and 2:01 in
the
second.... Pause them and just frekin' look......


Friendly suggestion. You might want to hold off on your
condemnations
until you read and think about this a little more.



Dick, it's pretty simple. You were talking about starting a turn,
and we
miscommunicated but we are both on the same page there.... John said
something totally different, said they are countersteering "through"
that's THROUGH the corner, which is what I was saying was
incorrect....

Yup. Start and through. Once you let up, you straighten up.

Amen.



I think maybe I know why Scott thinks counter-steering is not required
*through* the turn. In his world of dirt bike racing they often
"slide" through a turn,


and there are times when we don't... Either way, you can both steer, and
counter steer with the back end sliding. The difference is when the rear
end moves to the outside of the center line of the front forks (front
tire).. I showed two examples earlier. One gp bike steering through a
corner, one an flat tracker, counter steering through...

I will ask you one question I asked John. Show me which of these bikes
is "counter-steering" and don't say all of them. Pick one, post the link
to the picture and explain how the specific bike in that picture is
counter-steering even though the front tire in all of those bikes are
turned *into* the radius in comparison to the centerline of the bike...

https://www.google.com/search?q=gpx+corner&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=x ev7Upn5IoSMqQGT-IGgBA&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAg&biw=1366&bih=667#q=motorcycl e+corner&tbm=isch



Cause I don't see any of the bikes above with the front tire turned away
from the radius...





I'll answer your question but this will be the last comment I have on
this thread.

It's not possible to detect the amount of counter-steering applied by
looking at a picture. It's only enough to keep the bike following the
curve (which isn't much). You're not going to see an exaggerated fork
or wheel turn.

When following a car, that is making a turn at relatively high speed ...
like following the curve of an entrance to a major divided highway...
have you ever noticed how *very* slightly the front wheels are turned to
stay on the curve? Now, this has nothing to do with counter-steering
on a bike but it illustrates how little a wheel/tire has to turn to make
a turn at speed.

The riders in your pics ... the ones who are taking a curve but are not
"sliding" (meaning the rear wheel is still in line with the front) are
*all* counter-steering to make that turn. You are looking for some
extreme representation of it that can be seen on the front wheel or
handlebars. It's not like that.




Then the whole day was wasted comparing apples to oranges.. John said it
was when the front tire was turned away from the radius....

John most certainly never said anything about a 'front tire being turned away from a radius'. Those
are all your words. The only time I used the word 'radius' was in telling you that your use made no
sense to me whatsoever.

Let's don't be making up stuff now.

countersteering...
 

On 2/13/2014 8:37 PM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 19:50:47 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 2/13/2014 7:33 PM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 19:05:45 -0500, KC wrote:

On 2/13/2014 6:11 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/13/2014 5:07 PM, KC wrote:
On 2/13/2014 5:02 PM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 16:37:10 -0500, KC wrote:

On 2/13/2014 4:04 PM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 15:29:25 -0500, KC wrote:

On 2/13/2014 12:16 PM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 10:20:32 -0500, KC
wrote:

On 2/13/2014 10:13 AM, KC wrote:
On 2/13/2014 8:17 AM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 23:39:23 -0500, KC
wrote:

On 2/12/2014 11:22 PM, KC wrote:
On 2/12/2014 8:13 PM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 19:14:08 -0500, KC
wrote:




https://www.google.com/search?q=gpx+corner&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=x ev7Upn5IoSMqQGT-IGgBA&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAg&biw=1366&bih=667#q=motorcycl e+corner&tbm=isch





nd the rear tire is tracking inside
the track of the front tire..

There may be a couple exceptions such as corners that are too
sharp for
normal tracking... Again, those tracks are made for
drifting/countersteering so they will be faster in that
mode..

All of 'em.



https://www.google.com/search?q=gpx+corner&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=x ev7Upn5IoSMqQGT-IGgBA&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAg&biw=1366&bih=667#q=motorcycl e+corner&tbm=isch




Please John, end the madness... Take a second and go to the link
above
and post a quick link of the motorcycle you see in the first say,
half
of the page where the front wheel is turned away from the radius
and the
rear tire is tracking outside the front tire radius... or what
you call
countersteering. You said all of 'em. Apparently you don't know
what
countersteering really is....

I've already answered it. They got to where they are by
countersteering. They are staying in the
turn because they are pushing on the handlebar corresponding to
the direction of the turn. Push
left, go left. Push right, go right.

Here, now you look at something.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivwZ_DEFHrc


No question there... I had that save my ass on my CB500 Twin which
supposedly had a "Triumph" style front end. I hit a huge chunk of
frozen
slush and it kicked my tire out so I got loose, and let the thing
swing
back and fourth till it stood itself back up, I pulled over and
cleaned
my pants out... literally...

I understand the technique completely, no issue there I have a high
level of what they call three dimensional comprehension... I actually
see the forces of water and gyros, etc in my head when I design, I
used
to see how water would work around boat hulls when I drew them and
where
the drag would be etc... Put it in the computer and it was right,
used
to talk about it a lot with my engineer bud in Gloucester...

Anyway, to countersteering (which I believe in:)

It's not a question of belief, It's what is.

My only point is I
"can" initiate a turn without countersteering by meerely shifting my
weight before initiating the turn.

Very often it seems like a lean is initiating the turn, but in
reality it's the pressure you're
putting on the handlebar when you lean. For example, if I don't
exert any pressure on the handlebar,
I can lean over and pull my pants leg down without making a turn.
Have you never done that? Oh, I
suppose you could lean enough to change lanes on the highway, but
you'd not want to try taking any
sharp curves that way.

At the same time I also understand
that in the emergency situation when you don't have time to set up,
the
countersteer is the only way to start the turn... You see, I get
it, but
still like the guy in your vid said... "The countersteer initiates
the
turn, but the gyro effect immediately corrects it"...

The gyro effect immediately brings the bike back up - if the
countersteering is stopped - i.e., no
more pressure on the handle bar. If the pushing on the bar is
continued, the bike will lean more and
turn more sharply.

or you would
really be on the pavement... If you are countersteering through the
corner (over riding the natural "steering force" tendency to
"correct"),
you are sliding the back tire sideways and scrubbing off speed....

Totally wrong. If your speed is too fast for the turn, *then* you
may slide the rear tire. The force
on the handlebar (the countersteering force) is continued until you
are ready to straigten up and
come out of the turn. Then the push is relaxed and the bike corrects
itself - comes back to the
vertical.

Sliding at speed is *not* the way to turn corners.


I get it but how can you counter steer "through a corner"? None of the
bikes in my link have the bars turned away from the radius... The only
bikes I know that "counter steer" though a corner are these types of
bikes that run on ice and dirt. If you skip to the 1:05 minute mark and
watch this corner, you will see motorcycles counter steering
"through" a
corner. As we determined earlier. The front wheel is turned "away" from
the radius of the turn, and the rear tire is sliding in a radius
outside
the radius of the front tire...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqUnhTpbtSM



... as opposed to these guys who are clearly *not* counter steering
"through" a corner... as very clear if you skip to the 2 minute mark
and
watch the yellow bike on the right of the frame... It's front tire is
turned into the radius, and the rear tire is not sliding sideways, but
tracking forward in the direction of the turn, ideally slightly inside
the radius of the front tire... this bike is "steering" not counter
steering... as in the video of the flat trackers above...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjSXehuADx4


Period...

You're right. I made all that **** up.


No John, you are just not letting your emotion and ego, look at the
pictures, and listen to the words. You said "through" the corner, I
showed you two distinct versions, one steering, one counter steering
Take a breath and go look at 1:05 into the first vid, and 2:01 in the
second.... Pause them and just frekin' look......


Friendly suggestion. You might want to hold off on your condemnations
until you read and think about this a little more.



Dick, it's pretty simple. You were talking about starting a turn, and we
miscommunicated but we are both on the same page there.... John said
something totally different, said they are countersteering "through"
that's THROUGH the corner, which is what I was saying was incorrect....

Yup. Start and through. Once you let up, you straighten up.

Amen.



I think maybe I know why Scott thinks counter-steering is not required
*through* the turn. In his world of dirt bike racing they often
"slide" through a turn, so the rear wheel is constantly re-aligning to
the direction they want to go. That's why he keeps talking about
"thrust" and "steering with the rear wheel". I can understand that.
It's a constant, fluid redirection of the rear wheel relative to the
curve or "corner" as he puts it.


I agree. That's why I've tried to stick to pavement talk. When he mentioned earlier the idea of
touching the front brake to help with a turn, I think he's transferring weight to the front end,
losing traction on the rear end, and able to 'slide' the rear wheel around. That would be the only
reason I can see to 'touch' the front brake, unless the bike's just going to damn fast.



The funny thing is, the thread (started by me) posed the question of
what would happen when riding a bike (motorcycle) *straight* and
applying forward pressure on the left or right handlebar. I was
alluding to counter-steering.

Scott quickly jumped all over both of us with his worldly experience of
dirt track racing, "steering with the back tire", "thrust" and the
importance of shaving a tenth of a second off of taking the "corner".

None of which, of course, had anything to do with the original question
posed. Cracked me up.

countersteering...
 

On 2/13/2014 5:32 PM, KC wrote:

Then the whole day was wasted comparing apples to oranges..

It's not the first time.

Dry pavement, no sliding or skidding...

Consider a long sweeping curve that had a minor slalom course within it.
The turn would be initiated by a slight counter steer to initiate the
lean then each minor correction to follow the slalom requires a
corresponding counter-steering force to modulate the lean. You don't
see it in the handlebar/front tire angle.

countersteering...
 

On 2/14/2014 11:56 AM, thumper wrote:
On 2/13/2014 5:32 PM, KC wrote:

Then the whole day was wasted comparing apples to oranges..

It's not the first time.

Dry pavement, no sliding or skidding...

Consider a long sweeping curve that had a minor slalom course within it.
The turn would be initiated by a slight counter steer to initiate the
lean then each minor correction to follow the slalom requires a
corresponding counter-steering force to modulate the lean. You don't
see it in the handlebar/front tire angle.


Exactly, and I *thought* John was saying it was the steering angle
compared to the centerline of the bike...

And for Gods sake, I emphasized the word "thought" so somebody can stop
complaining about "putting words in mouth"...

countersteering...
 

On Fri, 14 Feb 2014 12:35:58 -0500, KC wrote:

On 2/14/2014 11:56 AM, thumper wrote:
On 2/13/2014 5:32 PM, KC wrote:

Then the whole day was wasted comparing apples to oranges..

It's not the first time.

Dry pavement, no sliding or skidding...

Consider a long sweeping curve that had a minor slalom course within it.
The turn would be initiated by a slight counter steer to initiate the
lean then each minor correction to follow the slalom requires a
corresponding counter-steering force to modulate the lean. You don't
see it in the handlebar/front tire angle.


Exactly, and I *thought* John was saying it was the steering angle
compared to the centerline of the bike...

And for Gods sake, I emphasized the word "thought" so somebody can stop
complaining about "putting words in mouth"...

Thank you. I don't think I ever used the words 'steering angle' or 'compared to the center of the
bike'. That's what I meant about getting confused when trying to say what someone said using your
own words. Of course, you could have read the Wikipedia article if you were confused.