Windows XP end of support
 

On 2/14/2014 10:44 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/14/2014 10:27 AM, KC wrote:
On 2/14/2014 10:06 AM, HanK wrote:
On 2/14/2014 9:30 AM, KC wrote:
Yup, counter steer, then steer, then countersteer again.... got it...
but not "through the corner".. your own pics are clear.... thanks....

I hope you can remember all that in the middle of a critical turn.

Don't have to, haven't you been reading. If the bike turns, you are
doing it... no other way around it...:)


The goal is to make it turn in the direction and manner that you *want*
it to turn. :-)

I am not questioning anything you are saying as it relates to dirt bike
racing. It's a unique form of riding and you do things that us street
bikers don't do .. at least not on purpose. We don't go airborne, we
don't try to plant a new direction of travel upon landing, we don't
slide around corners or do any of the other maneuvers you are skilled in
doing. I couldn't do a wheelie on a Harley UltraClassic if I tried.

None of them apply to the millions of people riding street bikes on
roads and highways.

That's a red herring... There are plenty of turns we make just like you.
You didn't answer my question though...

You are saying countersteering is not related to the angle of the bars
in relation to the centerline of the bike, you are saying
countersteering is related to the pressure applied against the plane
formed by the gyroscopic pressures on the bike? Right?

Windows XP end of support
 

On 2/14/2014 10:53 AM, KC wrote:
On 2/14/2014 10:44 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/14/2014 10:27 AM, KC wrote:
On 2/14/2014 10:06 AM, HanK wrote:
On 2/14/2014 9:30 AM, KC wrote:
Yup, counter steer, then steer, then countersteer again.... got it...
but not "through the corner".. your own pics are clear.... thanks....

I hope you can remember all that in the middle of a critical turn.

Don't have to, haven't you been reading. If the bike turns, you are
doing it... no other way around it...:)


The goal is to make it turn in the direction and manner that you *want*
it to turn. :-)

I am not questioning anything you are saying as it relates to dirt bike
racing. It's a unique form of riding and you do things that us street
bikers don't do .. at least not on purpose. We don't go airborne, we
don't try to plant a new direction of travel upon landing, we don't
slide around corners or do any of the other maneuvers you are skilled in
doing. I couldn't do a wheelie on a Harley UltraClassic if I tried.

None of them apply to the millions of people riding street bikes on
roads and highways.

That's a red herring... There are plenty of turns we make just like you.
You didn't answer my question though...

You are saying countersteering is not related to the angle of the bars
in relation to the centerline of the bike, you are saying
countersteering is related to the pressure applied against the plane
formed by the gyroscopic pressures on the bike? Right?

So you are saying in a left corner, with my forks turned left, I am
putting more pressure on the left bar... again, not the angle of the
bars, but the pressure on the bars... That I could buy.... but my forks
will still be turned left in relation to the centerline of the bike...

Windows XP end of support
 

On 2/14/2014 10:53 AM, KC wrote:
On 2/14/2014 10:44 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/14/2014 10:27 AM, KC wrote:
On 2/14/2014 10:06 AM, HanK wrote:
On 2/14/2014 9:30 AM, KC wrote:
Yup, counter steer, then steer, then countersteer again.... got it...
but not "through the corner".. your own pics are clear.... thanks....

I hope you can remember all that in the middle of a critical turn.

Don't have to, haven't you been reading. If the bike turns, you are
doing it... no other way around it...:)


The goal is to make it turn in the direction and manner that you *want*
it to turn. :-)

I am not questioning anything you are saying as it relates to dirt bike
racing. It's a unique form of riding and you do things that us street
bikers don't do .. at least not on purpose. We don't go airborne, we
don't try to plant a new direction of travel upon landing, we don't
slide around corners or do any of the other maneuvers you are skilled in
doing. I couldn't do a wheelie on a Harley UltraClassic if I tried.

None of them apply to the millions of people riding street bikes on
roads and highways.

That's a red herring... There are plenty of turns we make just like you.
You didn't answer my question though...

You are saying countersteering is not related to the angle of the bars
in relation to the centerline of the bike, you are saying
countersteering is related to the pressure applied against the plane
formed by the gyroscopic pressures on the bike? Right?


I am saying that a degree of counter-steering pressure is required to
keep the front and rear wheels pretty much in line while navigating the
turn. Why is that so hard to understand?

Windows XP end of support
 

On 2/14/2014 10:32 AM, KC wrote:
On 2/14/2014 10:15 AM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Fri, 14 Feb 2014 10:06:51 -0500, HanK wrote:

On 2/14/2014 9:30 AM, KC wrote:
Yup, counter steer, then steer, then countersteer again.... got it...
but not "through the corner".. your own pics are clear.... thanks....

I hope you can remember all that in the middle of a critical turn.

It's especially important to remember in a decreasing radius turn,
when the only way to get through
it is to push down harder on the lower bar. Or just panic and hit the
ditch, tree, abutment, etc.


We just drove our street bikes normally, not looking for that "feel" in
every corner so I didn't get surprised by a decreasing radius
corner...... Personally, I think it's kinda' irresponsible when bikes
get fast and loose on the street, that should be reserved for the track...

Good. And nice counter-steering!

Windows XP end of support
 

On 2/14/2014 10:53 AM, KC wrote:
On 2/14/2014 10:44 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/14/2014 10:27 AM, KC wrote:
On 2/14/2014 10:06 AM, HanK wrote:
On 2/14/2014 9:30 AM, KC wrote:
Yup, counter steer, then steer, then countersteer again.... got it...
but not "through the corner".. your own pics are clear.... thanks....

I hope you can remember all that in the middle of a critical turn.

Don't have to, haven't you been reading. If the bike turns, you are
doing it... no other way around it...:)


The goal is to make it turn in the direction and manner that you *want*
it to turn. :-)

I am not questioning anything you are saying as it relates to dirt bike
racing. It's a unique form of riding and you do things that us street
bikers don't do .. at least not on purpose. We don't go airborne, we
don't try to plant a new direction of travel upon landing, we don't
slide around corners or do any of the other maneuvers you are skilled in
doing. I couldn't do a wheelie on a Harley UltraClassic if I tried.

None of them apply to the millions of people riding street bikes on
roads and highways.

That's a red herring... There are plenty of turns we make just like you.
You didn't answer my question though...

You are saying countersteering is not related to the angle of the bars
in relation to the centerline of the bike, you are saying
countersteering is related to the pressure applied against the plane
formed by the gyroscopic pressures on the bike? Right?

We also use this method to lean the bike for a move called a scrub... A
scrub is a maneuver we use to keep the bike low on a jump, the idea
being to get back down to the track a few feet earlier and get forward
bite before the next guy...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYytyij1wII


You countersteer on the way up the face of the jump to lean the bike and
dampen the upward forces on the bike... "scrubbing" off the energy of
the jump...

Windows XP end of support
 

On 2/14/2014 10:59 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/14/2014 10:53 AM, KC wrote:
On 2/14/2014 10:44 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/14/2014 10:27 AM, KC wrote:
On 2/14/2014 10:06 AM, HanK wrote:
On 2/14/2014 9:30 AM, KC wrote:
Yup, counter steer, then steer, then countersteer again.... got it...
but not "through the corner".. your own pics are clear.... thanks....

I hope you can remember all that in the middle of a critical turn.

Don't have to, haven't you been reading. If the bike turns, you are
doing it... no other way around it...:)


The goal is to make it turn in the direction and manner that you *want*
it to turn. :-)

I am not questioning anything you are saying as it relates to dirt bike
racing. It's a unique form of riding and you do things that us street
bikers don't do .. at least not on purpose. We don't go airborne, we
don't try to plant a new direction of travel upon landing, we don't
slide around corners or do any of the other maneuvers you are skilled in
doing. I couldn't do a wheelie on a Harley UltraClassic if I tried.

None of them apply to the millions of people riding street bikes on
roads and highways.

That's a red herring... There are plenty of turns we make just like you.
You didn't answer my question though...

You are saying countersteering is not related to the angle of the bars
in relation to the centerline of the bike, you are saying
countersteering is related to the pressure applied against the plane
formed by the gyroscopic pressures on the bike? Right?


I am saying that a degree of counter-steering pressure is required to
keep the front and rear wheels pretty much in line while navigating the
turn. Why is that so hard to understand?

Exactly what I am saying.. why can't you understand? Yes, a degree of
pressure on the inside bar, I get it.. Always did, the problem was in
what I assumed to be your definition of countersteering, it was ****ing
semantics alone, why can't you understand that?

Windows XP end of support
 

On 2/14/2014 10:23 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/14/2014 10:14 AM, BAR wrote:
In article om,
says...

On 2/14/2014 9:30 AM, KC wrote:
Yup, counter steer, then steer, then countersteer again.... got it...
but not "through the corner".. your own pics are clear.... thanks....

I hope you can remember all that in the middle of a critical turn.

I rode a motorcycle on the roads for about 5 years. I never thought
about how to steer
through the corners, it came naturally maybe due to all of the bicycle
riding that I had been
performing in the preceeding 20 years.


You just said it in a nutshell. It becomes intuitive because you
learned its how you get around a curve. You don't even realize what you
are doing until you really think about it or we get in a discussion like
this.

The reason it became intuitive is because without counter-steering ..
you crashed.

However, understanding what counter-steering is all about can get you
out of an unexpected dangerous situation, like avoiding a deer or
something that fell out of the back of a pickup truck.

I remember reading a motorcycle safety article years ago. When riding,
the bike will track in the direction you are looking, simply due to
unconscious reactions you make to seeing road ahead or objects on or in
it. If you see and concentrate on a big pothole coming up in the road,
you will naturally tend to head for it initially. That's where
understanding effects like counter-steering becomes important.


Do you recall when we came across an alligator in the middle of the road
on a curve. I forget how we instinctively dealt with that obstacle.

Windows XP end of support
 

On 2/14/2014 10:15 AM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Fri, 14 Feb 2014 10:06:51 -0500, HanK wrote:

On 2/14/2014 9:30 AM, KC wrote:
Yup, counter steer, then steer, then countersteer again.... got it...
but not "through the corner".. your own pics are clear.... thanks....

I hope you can remember all that in the middle of a critical turn.

It's especially important to remember in a decreasing radius turn, when the only way to get through
it is to push down harder on the lower bar. Or just panic and hit the ditch, tree, abutment, etc.


Or maybe you can just find a nice rut to ride in.

Windows XP end of support
 

On 2/14/2014 11:16 AM, HanK wrote:
On 2/14/2014 10:23 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:


I remember reading a motorcycle safety article years ago. When riding,
the bike will track in the direction you are looking, simply due to
unconscious reactions you make to seeing road ahead or objects on or in
it. If you see and concentrate on a big pothole coming up in the road,
you will naturally tend to head for it initially. That's where
understanding effects like counter-steering becomes important.

When we discuss this with our riders I call it "situational fixation"...
the kids just call it "ohhhh shiny" :)


Do you recall when we came across an alligator in the middle of the road
on a curve. I forget how we instinctively dealt with that obstacle.


It just comes naturally for me too like the day I hit that huge chunk of
frozen slush... Had to countersteer and back and fourth a few times till
the bike settled... But really I didn't do anything, my weight was fixed
in a direction so the bike moved under me, I just stayed loose and let
the geometry of my front end do the rest:)

Windows XP end of support
 

On 2/14/2014 11:18 AM, HanK wrote:
On 2/14/2014 10:15 AM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Fri, 14 Feb 2014 10:06:51 -0500, HanK wrote:

On 2/14/2014 9:30 AM, KC wrote:
Yup, counter steer, then steer, then countersteer again.... got it...
but not "through the corner".. your own pics are clear.... thanks....

I hope you can remember all that in the middle of a critical turn.

It's especially important to remember in a decreasing radius turn,
when the only way to get through
it is to push down harder on the lower bar. Or just panic and hit the
ditch, tree, abutment, etc.


Or maybe you can just find a nice rut to ride in.

Go read Waynes post...