Windows XP end of support
 

On 2/14/2014 11:06 AM, KC wrote:
On 2/14/2014 10:53 AM, KC wrote:
On 2/14/2014 10:44 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/14/2014 10:27 AM, KC wrote:
On 2/14/2014 10:06 AM, HanK wrote:
On 2/14/2014 9:30 AM, KC wrote:
Yup, counter steer, then steer, then countersteer again.... got it...
but not "through the corner".. your own pics are clear.... thanks....

I hope you can remember all that in the middle of a critical turn.

Don't have to, haven't you been reading. If the bike turns, you are
doing it... no other way around it...:)


The goal is to make it turn in the direction and manner that you *want*
it to turn. :-)

I am not questioning anything you are saying as it relates to dirt bike
racing. It's a unique form of riding and you do things that us street
bikers don't do .. at least not on purpose. We don't go airborne, we
don't try to plant a new direction of travel upon landing, we don't
slide around corners or do any of the other maneuvers you are skilled in
doing. I couldn't do a wheelie on a Harley UltraClassic if I tried.

None of them apply to the millions of people riding street bikes on
roads and highways.

That's a red herring... There are plenty of turns we make just like you.
You didn't answer my question though...

You are saying countersteering is not related to the angle of the bars
in relation to the centerline of the bike, you are saying
countersteering is related to the pressure applied against the plane
formed by the gyroscopic pressures on the bike? Right?

We also use this method to lean the bike for a move called a scrub... A
scrub is a maneuver we use to keep the bike low on a jump, the idea
being to get back down to the track a few feet earlier and get forward
bite before the next guy...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYytyij1wII


You countersteer on the way up the face of the jump to lean the bike and
dampen the upward forces on the bike... "scrubbing" off the energy of
the jump...

I'm afraid we'll have to take your word on this.

Windows XP end of support
 

On Fri, 14 Feb 2014 10:23:41 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 2/14/2014 10:14 AM, BAR wrote:
In article om, says...

On 2/14/2014 9:30 AM, KC wrote:
Yup, counter steer, then steer, then countersteer again.... got it...
but not "through the corner".. your own pics are clear.... thanks....

I hope you can remember all that in the middle of a critical turn.

I rode a motorcycle on the roads for about 5 years. I never thought about how to steer
through the corners, it came naturally maybe due to all of the bicycle riding that I had been
performing in the preceeding 20 years.


You just said it in a nutshell. It becomes intuitive because you
learned its how you get around a curve. You don't even realize what you
are doing until you really think about it or we get in a discussion like
this.

The reason it became intuitive is because without counter-steering ..
you crashed.

However, understanding what counter-steering is all about can get you
out of an unexpected dangerous situation, like avoiding a deer or
something that fell out of the back of a pickup truck.

I remember reading a motorcycle safety article years ago. When riding,
the bike will track in the direction you are looking, simply due to
unconscious reactions you make to seeing road ahead or objects on or in
it. If you see and concentrate on a big pothole coming up in the road,
you will naturally tend to head for it initially. That's where
understanding effects like counter-steering becomes important.


Damn, sounds like you were reading a MSF instructor guide. 'Look where you want to go' is one of the
major teaching points in the MSF course. When you see someone doing a figure eight, or a u-turn,
their head should be turned hard in the direction they want to go. If I'm doing a figure eight in
the road, I'll keep my eyes on the 'center' of each circle as I'm going around. Same thing with a
u-turn. The eyes are focused on the center of the 'U' as I'm going around. Looking at the ditch
you're trying to miss is a good way to get into it.

The MSF teaches courses at different levels. You should try the Advanced Rider Course. A great way
to spend a day, it's taken on your own bike, and I guarantee you'll learn something!

Here's some Massachusetts info.
http://nm.msf-usa.org/msf/ridercours...derCourse+Info

"Advanced RiderCourse (ARC) [formerly ARC-ST]
A one-day course that complements a rider's basic skills and helps with personal risk assessment. It
includes a fast-paced classroom segment with several interactive activities to improve perception
and hazard awareness. Range exercises enhance both basic skills and crash avoidance skills.
Improving braking and cornering finesse is emphasized. The course is beneficial for riders on any
type of street motorcycle."

Windows XP end of support
 

On 2/14/2014 11:33 AM, HanK wrote:
On 2/14/2014 11:06 AM, KC wrote:
On 2/14/2014 10:53 AM, KC wrote:
On 2/14/2014 10:44 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/14/2014 10:27 AM, KC wrote:
On 2/14/2014 10:06 AM, HanK wrote:
On 2/14/2014 9:30 AM, KC wrote:
Yup, counter steer, then steer, then countersteer again.... got
it...
but not "through the corner".. your own pics are clear....
thanks....

I hope you can remember all that in the middle of a critical turn.

Don't have to, haven't you been reading. If the bike turns, you are
doing it... no other way around it...:)


The goal is to make it turn in the direction and manner that you *want*
it to turn. :-)

I am not questioning anything you are saying as it relates to dirt bike
racing. It's a unique form of riding and you do things that us street
bikers don't do .. at least not on purpose. We don't go airborne, we
don't try to plant a new direction of travel upon landing, we don't
slide around corners or do any of the other maneuvers you are
skilled in
doing. I couldn't do a wheelie on a Harley UltraClassic if I tried.

None of them apply to the millions of people riding street bikes on
roads and highways.

That's a red herring... There are plenty of turns we make just like you.
You didn't answer my question though...

You are saying countersteering is not related to the angle of the bars
in relation to the centerline of the bike, you are saying
countersteering is related to the pressure applied against the plane
formed by the gyroscopic pressures on the bike? Right?

We also use this method to lean the bike for a move called a scrub... A
scrub is a maneuver we use to keep the bike low on a jump, the idea
being to get back down to the track a few feet earlier and get forward
bite before the next guy...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYytyij1wII


You countersteer on the way up the face of the jump to lean the bike and
dampen the upward forces on the bike... "scrubbing" off the energy of
the jump...

I'm afraid we'll have to take your word on this.

I guess if you can't see it in your head, you just will..

Windows XP end of support
 

On 2/14/2014 11:31 AM, KC wrote:
On 2/14/2014 11:18 AM, HanK wrote:
On 2/14/2014 10:15 AM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Fri, 14 Feb 2014 10:06:51 -0500, HanK wrote:

On 2/14/2014 9:30 AM, KC wrote:
Yup, counter steer, then steer, then countersteer again.... got it...
but not "through the corner".. your own pics are clear.... thanks....

I hope you can remember all that in the middle of a critical turn.

It's especially important to remember in a decreasing radius turn,
when the only way to get through
it is to push down harder on the lower bar. Or just panic and hit the
ditch, tree, abutment, etc.


Or maybe you can just find a nice rut to ride in.

Go read Waynes post...

which one?

Windows XP end of support
 

On Fri, 14 Feb 2014 10:32:43 -0500, KC wrote:

On 2/14/2014 10:15 AM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Fri, 14 Feb 2014 10:06:51 -0500, HanK wrote:

On 2/14/2014 9:30 AM, KC wrote:
Yup, counter steer, then steer, then countersteer again.... got it...
but not "through the corner".. your own pics are clear.... thanks....

I hope you can remember all that in the middle of a critical turn.

It's especially important to remember in a decreasing radius turn, when the only way to get through
it is to push down harder on the lower bar. Or just panic and hit the ditch, tree, abutment, etc.


We just drove our street bikes normally, not looking for that "feel" in
every corner so I didn't get surprised by a decreasing radius
corner...... Personally, I think it's kinda' irresponsible when bikes
get fast and loose on the street, that should be reserved for the track...

Stay off the roads in West Virginia! Fast is OK (on many of those roads, fast is 35mph!) You'll
definitely get some counter steering practice on the twistys. Try the Highland Turnpike around Fort
Edward Johnson. You'll love it!

'Loose', I don't know. Not sure what you mean.

Windows XP end of support
 

On 2/14/14, 11:48 AM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Fri, 14 Feb 2014 10:32:43 -0500, KC wrote:

On 2/14/2014 10:15 AM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Fri, 14 Feb 2014 10:06:51 -0500, HanK wrote:

On 2/14/2014 9:30 AM, KC wrote:
Yup, counter steer, then steer, then countersteer again.... got it...
but not "through the corner".. your own pics are clear.... thanks....

I hope you can remember all that in the middle of a critical turn.

It's especially important to remember in a decreasing radius turn, when the only way to get through
it is to push down harder on the lower bar. Or just panic and hit the ditch, tree, abutment, etc.


We just drove our street bikes normally, not looking for that "feel" in
every corner so I didn't get surprised by a decreasing radius
corner...... Personally, I think it's kinda' irresponsible when bikes
get fast and loose on the street, that should be reserved for the track...

Stay off the roads in West Virginia! Fast is OK (on many of those roads, fast is 35mph!) You'll
definitely get some counter steering practice on the twistys. Try the Highland Turnpike around Fort
Edward Johnson. You'll love it!

'Loose', I don't know. Not sure what you mean.


Isn't fast and loose the generic name for a series of "C" grade movies
involving fast cars, bad actors, drugs, and actresses with huge tits?

--
Sarah Palin is watching the Sochi Olympic Games from the front porch of
her house.

Windows XP end of support
 

On Fri, 14 Feb 2014 10:23:05 -0500, KC wrote:

On 2/14/2014 9:59 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/14/2014 9:30 AM, KC wrote:

On 2/14/2014 7:48 AM, Poco Loco wrote:


Scotty, I spent a good part of yesterday trying to explain to you what
really happens when you turn
a motorcycle. You chose not to believe it, came up with ridiculous
'arguments', put up a picture of
a dirt bike in a slide, argued against Wikipedia, expert rider videos,
and a Motorcycle Safety
Instructor. Then you started putting bull**** words in my mouth and
comparing me to Harry and Kevin.
After trying to keep a level head, I gave up. That's when I said I'd
just made up the whole thing.
By looking at Google, Wikipedia, videos, etc, you should have realized
I was bull****ting when I
said I made it all up. But I'm thinking that was the only thing you
took seriously.

OK, here's the real poop. Steering a motorcycle at more that 'parking
lot' speeds is done using a
technique called counter steering. The technique is called 'counter
steering' because it is
'counter' to the way we learned how to turn a tricycle. On a
motorcycle, we push left to go left,
and push right to go right, as was explained in numerous videos,
Wikipedia, and over a million hits
in Google if you plug in 'counter steering a motorcycle'.

Here are some nice pictures explaining the technique:

http://www.motorcycletraining.com/wo...eering-pic.jpg



Established that yesterday. Motorcycle countersteers, corrects, and
steers through the turn... got it...

http://xbhp.com/ridesafe/images/coun...ersteering.jpg

The process through a curve::

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...cornerbike.gif



Yup, counter steer, then steer, then countersteer again.... got it...
but not "through the corner".. your own pics are clear.... thanks....


I swore I wouldn't get involved in this anymore, but I have to point out
something.

Scott, that "gif" image showing the proper way to take a turn is
deceiving and not really telling the whole story.

It shows a section where you counter-steer to enter and begin the turn.
Based on the diagram, you might interpret that you *stop* the
counter-steer while in the turn. That's what is deceiving about the
diagram.

The amount of counter-steer is actually maintained throughout the turn
because the forces on the bike and rider remain constant throughout. It
*has* to, otherwise you won't completely navigate the turn.

However .. if the rear wheel breaks free and aligns with the direction
the bike is traveling, the previously established counter-steer
requirement will be nullified. You may have to re-establish
counter-steer again however to complete the rest of the turn.

The pictures you keep referencing are worthless. Where you see pressure
on the handlebars in one direction, I see it opposite.
The amount of counter-steer is so subtle, you really can't clearly see
what is going on.




So what you are saying is countersteering isn't related to the direction
of the front forks in relation to the centerline of the bike, it's
related to the force applied to the front forks in relation to the
gyroscopic plane created by the tires? Ok, that makes more sense...

You can go back and read what we've said. Or you can google it. Either way you'll learn what counter
steering is all about.

When you try to say what we're saying, you get confused and/or put words in our mouths.

Windows XP end of support
 

On Fri, 14 Feb 2014 10:53:35 -0500, KC wrote:

On 2/14/2014 10:44 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/14/2014 10:27 AM, KC wrote:
On 2/14/2014 10:06 AM, HanK wrote:
On 2/14/2014 9:30 AM, KC wrote:
Yup, counter steer, then steer, then countersteer again.... got it...
but not "through the corner".. your own pics are clear.... thanks....

I hope you can remember all that in the middle of a critical turn.

Don't have to, haven't you been reading. If the bike turns, you are
doing it... no other way around it...:)


The goal is to make it turn in the direction and manner that you *want*
it to turn. :-)

I am not questioning anything you are saying as it relates to dirt bike
racing. It's a unique form of riding and you do things that us street
bikers don't do .. at least not on purpose. We don't go airborne, we
don't try to plant a new direction of travel upon landing, we don't
slide around corners or do any of the other maneuvers you are skilled in
doing. I couldn't do a wheelie on a Harley UltraClassic if I tried.

None of them apply to the millions of people riding street bikes on
roads and highways.

That's a red herring... There are plenty of turns we make just like you.
You didn't answer my question though...

You are saying countersteering is not related to the angle of the bars
in relation to the centerline of the bike, you are saying
countersteering is related to the pressure applied against the plane
formed by the gyroscopic pressures on the bike? Right?

You can go back and read what we've said. Or you can google it. Either way you'll learn what counter
steering is all about.

When you try to say what we're saying, you get confused and/or put words in our mouths.

Windows XP end of support
 

On Fri, 14 Feb 2014 11:13:43 -0500, KC wrote:

On 2/14/2014 10:59 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/14/2014 10:53 AM, KC wrote:
On 2/14/2014 10:44 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/14/2014 10:27 AM, KC wrote:
On 2/14/2014 10:06 AM, HanK wrote:
On 2/14/2014 9:30 AM, KC wrote:
Yup, counter steer, then steer, then countersteer again.... got it...
but not "through the corner".. your own pics are clear.... thanks....

I hope you can remember all that in the middle of a critical turn.

Don't have to, haven't you been reading. If the bike turns, you are
doing it... no other way around it...:)


The goal is to make it turn in the direction and manner that you *want*
it to turn. :-)

I am not questioning anything you are saying as it relates to dirt bike
racing. It's a unique form of riding and you do things that us street
bikers don't do .. at least not on purpose. We don't go airborne, we
don't try to plant a new direction of travel upon landing, we don't
slide around corners or do any of the other maneuvers you are skilled in
doing. I couldn't do a wheelie on a Harley UltraClassic if I tried.

None of them apply to the millions of people riding street bikes on
roads and highways.

That's a red herring... There are plenty of turns we make just like you.
You didn't answer my question though...

You are saying countersteering is not related to the angle of the bars
in relation to the centerline of the bike, you are saying
countersteering is related to the pressure applied against the plane
formed by the gyroscopic pressures on the bike? Right?


I am saying that a degree of counter-steering pressure is required to
keep the front and rear wheels pretty much in line while navigating the
turn. Why is that so hard to understand?

Exactly what I am saying.. why can't you understand? Yes, a degree of
pressure on the inside bar, I get it.. Always did, the problem was in
what I assumed to be your definition of countersteering, it was ****ing
semantics alone, why can't you understand that?

If your whole problem in understanding the technique of counter steering was semantics, why didn't
you just read the Wikipedia explanation, or any of the million other hits, or watch the YouTube
videos?

Like I said earlier,

You can go back and read what we've said. Or you can google it. Either way you'll learn what counter
steering is all about.

When you try to say what we're saying, you get confused and/or put words in our mouths.

Windows XP end of support
 

On 2/14/2014 11:41 AM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Fri, 14 Feb 2014 10:23:41 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 2/14/2014 10:14 AM, BAR wrote:
In article om, says...

On 2/14/2014 9:30 AM, KC wrote:
Yup, counter steer, then steer, then countersteer again.... got it...
but not "through the corner".. your own pics are clear.... thanks....

I hope you can remember all that in the middle of a critical turn.

I rode a motorcycle on the roads for about 5 years. I never thought about how to steer
through the corners, it came naturally maybe due to all of the bicycle riding that I had been
performing in the preceeding 20 years.


You just said it in a nutshell. It becomes intuitive because you
learned its how you get around a curve. You don't even realize what you
are doing until you really think about it or we get in a discussion like
this.

The reason it became intuitive is because without counter-steering ..
you crashed.

However, understanding what counter-steering is all about can get you
out of an unexpected dangerous situation, like avoiding a deer or
something that fell out of the back of a pickup truck.

I remember reading a motorcycle safety article years ago. When riding,
the bike will track in the direction you are looking, simply due to
unconscious reactions you make to seeing road ahead or objects on or in
it. If you see and concentrate on a big pothole coming up in the road,
you will naturally tend to head for it initially. That's where
understanding effects like counter-steering becomes important.


Damn, sounds like you were reading a MSF instructor guide. 'Look where you want to go' is one of the
major teaching points in the MSF course. When you see someone doing a figure eight, or a u-turn,
their head should be turned hard in the direction they want to go. If I'm doing a figure eight in
the road, I'll keep my eyes on the 'center' of each circle as I'm going around. Same thing with a
u-turn. The eyes are focused on the center of the 'U' as I'm going around. Looking at the ditch
you're trying to miss is a good way to get into it.

The MSF teaches courses at different levels. You should try the Advanced Rider Course. A great way
to spend a day, it's taken on your own bike, and I guarantee you'll learn something!

Here's some Massachusetts info.
http://nm.msf-usa.org/msf/ridercours...derCourse+Info

"Advanced RiderCourse (ARC) [formerly ARC-ST]
A one-day course that complements a rider's basic skills and helps with personal risk assessment. It
includes a fast-paced classroom segment with several interactive activities to improve perception
and hazard awareness. Range exercises enhance both basic skills and crash avoidance skills.
Improving braking and cornering finesse is emphasized. The course is beneficial for riders on any
type of street motorcycle."

It takes nerves of steel to stand in front of a rapidly advancing rider
and say (break right), (break left), or (stop).