On Friday, September 13, 2013 8:22:25 AM UTC-5, Hank© wrote:
On 9/13/2013 7:44 AM, Tim wrote:

On Friday, September 13, 2013 6:15:41 AM UTC-5, F.O.A.D. wrote:

On 9/13/13 7:10 AM, Tim wrote:



On Friday, September 13, 2013 1:38:46 AM UTC-5, jps wrote:



Researchers in the United States claim to have established a







convincing statistical link between gun ownership and homicide,







according to a new study.















The study, which appears in the American Journal of Public Health,







challenges the National Rifle Association s claim that increased gun







ownership does not lead to higher levels of gun violence.















Covering 30 years from 1981 and all 50 US states, it determined that







for every one percentage point in the prevalence of gun ownership in a







given state, the firearm homicide rate increased by 0.9 percent.















In the absence of state-level data on household gun ownership, the







study used a proxy variable the percentage of a state s suicides







committed with a firearm that has been validated in previous







research.















The study, led by Boston University community health sciences







professor Michael Siegel, is the first of its kind since the December







2012 mass shooting of 20 children at Sandy Hook Elementary School in







Newtown, Connecticut.















In the wake of the tragic shooting in Newtown many states are







considering legislation to control firearm-related deaths, said







Siegel in a statement.















This research is the strongest to date to document that states with







higher levels of gun ownership have disproportionately large numbers







of deaths from firearm-related homicides, he said.















It suggests that measures which succeed in decreasing the overall







prevalence of guns will lower firearm homicide rates.















The study found that, over three decades, the mean estimated







percentage of gun ownership ranged from a low of 25.8 percent in







Hawaii to a high of 76.8 percent in Mississippi, with a national







average of 57.7 percent.















The mean age-adjusted firearm homicide rate stretched from 0.9 percent







per 100,000 in New Hampshire to 1.8 percent in Louisiana, with an







average for all states of four per 100,000.















The study also acknowledged a long-term decline in firearm homicide







for all states, from 5.2 per 100,000 in 1981 to 3.5 per 100,000 in







2010.















Firearms were involved in 11,078 homicides of the 16,259 homicides in







the United States in 2010, the latest year for which data is







available, according to the Centers for Disease Control and







Prevention.







Kates and Mauser clarify that they are not suggesting that gun control causes nations to have higher murder rates, rather, they "observed correlations that nations with stringent gun controls tend to have much higher murder rates than nations that allow guns."







http://www.bostonmagazine.com/news/b...ence-with-ban/











That's an absurd posit on the part of Kates and Mauser. There are



decades of evidence showing that the United States, with virtually no



gun controls, has among the highest rates of murder by gun in the



western world.





For every statement, poll, or study, there's always an opposing view, Harry.. You should know that...



Not only that, studies usually turn out the way the sponsor wants.

Oh yes...

"F.O.A.D." wrote:
On 9/13/13 7:10 AM, Tim wrote:
On Friday, September 13, 2013 1:38:46 AM UTC-5, jps wrote:
Researchers in the United States claim to have established a

convincing statistical link between gun ownership and homicide,

according to a new study.



The study, which appears in the American Journal of Public Health,

challenges the National Rifle Association s claim that increased gun

ownership does not lead to higher levels of gun violence.



Covering 30 years from 1981 and all 50 US states, it determined that

for every one percentage point in the prevalence of gun ownership in a

given state, the firearm homicide rate increased by 0.9 percent.



In the absence of state-level data on household gun ownership, the

study used a proxy variable the percentage of a state s suicides

committed with a firearm that has been validated in previous

research.



The study, led by Boston University community health sciences

professor Michael Siegel, is the first of its kind since the December

2012 mass shooting of 20 children at Sandy Hook Elementary School in

Newtown, Connecticut.



In the wake of the tragic shooting in Newtown many states are

considering legislation to control firearm-related deaths, said

Siegel in a statement.



This research is the strongest to date to document that states with

higher levels of gun ownership have disproportionately large numbers

of deaths from firearm-related homicides, he said.



It suggests that measures which succeed in decreasing the overall

prevalence of guns will lower firearm homicide rates.



The study found that, over three decades, the mean estimated

percentage of gun ownership ranged from a low of 25.8 percent in

Hawaii to a high of 76.8 percent in Mississippi, with a national

average of 57.7 percent.



The mean age-adjusted firearm homicide rate stretched from 0.9 percent

per 100,000 in New Hampshire to 1.8 percent in Louisiana, with an

average for all states of four per 100,000.



The study also acknowledged a long-term decline in firearm homicide

for all states, from 5.2 per 100,000 in 1981 to 3.5 per 100,000 in

2010.



Firearms were involved in 11,078 homicides of the 16,259 homicides in

the United States in 2010, the latest year for which data is

available, according to the Centers for Disease Control and

Prevention.

Kates and Mauser clarify that they are not suggesting that gun control
causes nations to have higher murder rates, rather, they "observed
correlations that nations with stringent gun controls tend to have much
higher murder rates than nations that allow guns."

http://www.bostonmagazine.com/news/b...ence-with-ban/


That's an absurd posit on the part of Kates and Mauser. There are decades
of evidence showing that the United States, with virtually no gun
controls, has among the highest rates of murder by gun in the western world.

Japan has great gun control, and also the highest rate of suicide. Just
different tools to death. Basically we have societal breakdown in some of
our cities. Why? 250 murders already in Chicago, 100 in Oakland. How
many prosecutions? How many arrested? Look at the uproar over Zimmerman,
vs. nothing said about the massive black on black killing. Most of the
killing is caused by drug wars. Maybe we ought to look at our drug laws,
as well as the welfare rules, that create these death societies.

In article ,
says...

On Fri, 13 Sep 2013 17:11:26 -0400, BAR wrote:

In article ,
says...

On Friday, September 13, 2013 6:15:41 AM UTC-5, F.O.A.D. wrote:



That's an absurd posit on the part of Kates and Mauser. There are

decades of evidence showing that the United States, with virtually no

gun controls, has among the highest rates of murder by gun in the

western world.

Cook County/ Chicago IL. has some of the toughest gun laws in the nation, yet one of, if not the highest gun/murder rates in the nation as well. so....

Therefore gun control results in more murders.

They're relaxing some of their gun control. Maybe the homicide rate will go down now.

John (Gun Nut) H.

Oh, yeah, more guns equals less gun crime, right......

On Fri, 13 Sep 2013 04:44:26 -0700 (PDT), Tim
wrote:

That's an absurd posit on the part of Kates and Mauser. There are

decades of evidence showing that the United States, with virtually no

gun controls, has among the highest rates of murder by gun in the

western world.


For every statement, poll, or study, there's always an opposing view, Harry. You should know that...

And some of those "studies" are based on pure bull****. This is an
academic study with no agenda nor benefactor, unlike the NRA's
"studies" or gun manufacturer funded "studies."

On Fri, 13 Sep 2013 08:06:26 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Friday, September 13, 2013 8:20:09 AM UTC-4, Mr. Luddite wrote:


Some, like S&W have been at full capacity for the past 5 years,
indicating a strong demand for their products. Additionally, new
applications for permits have been at record levels. Despite this,
gun related homicides nationally are declining.

Which would seem to disprove the title of this thread, and the supposed statistical link claimed by the study.

Some dimwits aren't smart enough to realize that these two ideas are
not at odds with one another. You can have both a declining homocide
rate and a higher rate of homicide in regions with higher gun
ownership.

Some people have the academic credentials and investment into the
subject matter to make claims and some people do not.

Why don't you dimwits leave the thinking to those with brains enough
to do so.

"jps" wrote in message
...

On Fri, 13 Sep 2013 08:06:26 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Friday, September 13, 2013 8:20:09 AM UTC-4, Mr. Luddite wrote:


Some, like S&W have been at full capacity for the past 5 years,
indicating a strong demand for their products. Additionally, new
applications for permits have been at record levels. Despite this,
gun related homicides nationally are declining.

Which would seem to disprove the title of this thread, and the
supposed statistical link claimed by the study.

Some dimwits aren't smart enough to realize that these two ideas are
not at odds with one another. You can have both a declining homocide
rate and a higher rate of homicide in regions with higher gun
ownership.

Some people have the academic credentials and investment into the
subject matter to make claims and some people do not.

Why don't you dimwits leave the thinking to those with brains enough
to do so.

-------------------------

Let's see. The title of your post was, "Higher gun ownership equals
higher rate of homicide".

This dimwit is simply saying that at a national level:

a. Gun manufacturing has been up for the past 5 years (indicating
strong demand).
b. Permit applications have been at record levels (both new
applications and renewals).
c. Nationally, gun related gun homicides have been declining.

I'll leave it to you academic geniuses to study and determine the
correlation.

On Tuesday, September 17, 2013 4:28:17 AM UTC-4, jps wrote:
On Fri, 13 Sep 2013 08:06:26 -0700 (PDT), wrote:



On Friday, September 13, 2013 8:20:09 AM UTC-4, Mr. Luddite wrote:





Some, like S&W have been at full capacity for the past 5 years,

indicating a strong demand for their products. Additionally, new

applications for permits have been at record levels. Despite this,

gun related homicides nationally are declining.



Which would seem to disprove the title of this thread, and the supposed statistical link claimed by the study.



Some dimwits aren't smart enough to realize that these two ideas are
not at odds with one another. You can have both a declining homocide
rate and a higher rate of homicide in regions with higher gun
ownership.

Yet Chicago, with its tough gun laws, has a high rate. "Even supporters of the city's gun laws admit they don't address the social problems behind the shootings that continue to plague Chicago—400 so far this year. "You can try to legislate morality but it's really not something you can do," says Jason Ervin, alderman of the 28th Ward, a stretch of Chicago's west side battered by crime and disinvestment."

So guns aren't really the problem, eh?

Some people have the academic credentials and investment into the
subject matter to make claims and some people do not.

Why don't you dimwits leave the thinking to those with brains enough
to do so.

You don't have the credentials to make the statements above. After all, you think that people with an academic background magically don't have an agenda when writing a report. How naïve is that?

On Tue, 17 Sep 2013 07:29:14 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" nowayalso.jose.com
wrote:



"jps" wrote in message
.. .

On Fri, 13 Sep 2013 08:06:26 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Friday, September 13, 2013 8:20:09 AM UTC-4, Mr. Luddite wrote:


Some, like S&W have been at full capacity for the past 5 years,
indicating a strong demand for their products. Additionally, new
applications for permits have been at record levels. Despite this,
gun related homicides nationally are declining.

Which would seem to disprove the title of this thread, and the
supposed statistical link claimed by the study.

Some dimwits aren't smart enough to realize that these two ideas are
not at odds with one another. You can have both a declining homocide
rate and a higher rate of homicide in regions with higher gun
ownership.

Some people have the academic credentials and investment into the
subject matter to make claims and some people do not.

Why don't you dimwits leave the thinking to those with brains enough
to do so.

-------------------------

Let's see. The title of your post was, "Higher gun ownership equals
higher rate of homicide".

This dimwit is simply saying that at a national level:

a. Gun manufacturing has been up for the past 5 years (indicating
strong demand).
b. Permit applications have been at record levels (both new
applications and renewals).
c. Nationally, gun related gun homicides have been declining.

I'll leave it to you academic geniuses to study and determine the
correlation.


The percentage of population owning guns is going down. Has been for
decades. If your assumptions are right, then more guns are being
purchased by those who aleady own guns, so the NRA and Fox News are
doing their jobs well.

Areas in which gun ownership is higher experience more gun related
deaths. That's the conclusion of the study.

Can you separate those thoughts long enough for them to each make
sense?

If you can run a slide rule, you can surely figure this out.

On Tue, 17 Sep 2013 07:59:21 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Tuesday, September 17, 2013 4:28:17 AM UTC-4, jps wrote:
On Fri, 13 Sep 2013 08:06:26 -0700 (PDT), wrote:



On Friday, September 13, 2013 8:20:09 AM UTC-4, Mr. Luddite wrote:





Some, like S&W have been at full capacity for the past 5 years,

indicating a strong demand for their products. Additionally, new

applications for permits have been at record levels. Despite this,

gun related homicides nationally are declining.



Which would seem to disprove the title of this thread, and the supposed statistical link claimed by the study.



Some dimwits aren't smart enough to realize that these two ideas are
not at odds with one another. You can have both a declining homocide
rate and a higher rate of homicide in regions with higher gun
ownership.

Yet Chicago, with its tough gun laws, has a high rate. "Even supporters of the city's gun laws admit they don't address the social problems behind the shootings that continue to plague Chicago—400 so far this year. "You can try to legislate morality but it's really not something you can do," says Jason Ervin, alderman of the 28th Ward, a stretch of Chicago's west side battered by crime and disinvestment."

So guns aren't really the problem, eh?

Some people have the academic credentials and investment into the
subject matter to make claims and some people do not.

Why don't you dimwits leave the thinking to those with brains enough
to do so.

You don't have the credentials to make the statements above. After all, you think that people with an academic background magically don't have an agenda when writing a report. How naïve is that?

It's not naive. The numbers are the numbers. You just don't want to
face facts.

Doesn't have anything to do with laws, just density of ownership (yes,
double entendre).

"jps" wrote in message
...

On Tue, 17 Sep 2013 07:29:14 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" nowayalso.jose.com
wrote:



"jps" wrote in message
.. .

On Fri, 13 Sep 2013 08:06:26 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Friday, September 13, 2013 8:20:09 AM UTC-4, Mr. Luddite wrote:


Some, like S&W have been at full capacity for the past 5 years,
indicating a strong demand for their products. Additionally, new
applications for permits have been at record levels. Despite
this,
gun related homicides nationally are declining.

Which would seem to disprove the title of this thread, and the
supposed statistical link claimed by the study.

Some dimwits aren't smart enough to realize that these two ideas are
not at odds with one another. You can have both a declining homocide
rate and a higher rate of homicide in regions with higher gun
ownership.

Some people have the academic credentials and investment into the
subject matter to make claims and some people do not.

Why don't you dimwits leave the thinking to those with brains enough
to do so.

-------------------------

Let's see. The title of your post was, "Higher gun ownership equals
higher rate of homicide".

This dimwit is simply saying that at a national level:

a. Gun manufacturing has been up for the past 5 years (indicating
strong demand).
b. Permit applications have been at record levels (both new
applications and renewals).
c. Nationally, gun related gun homicides have been declining.

I'll leave it to you academic geniuses to study and determine the
correlation.


The percentage of population owning guns is going down. Has been for
decades. If your assumptions are right, then more guns are being
purchased by those who aleady own guns, so the NRA and Fox News are
doing their jobs well.

Areas in which gun ownership is higher experience more gun related
deaths. That's the conclusion of the study.

Can you separate those thoughts long enough for them to each make
sense?

If you can run a slide rule, you can surely figure this out.

--------------------------

First, there's no need for your snarky comments.

Other than telephone surveys, there's no possible way to determine if
gun ownership is going up or down because there's no national registry
of who owns what. You have to believe that if a stranger calls you
up and asks if you have a gun, that everyone will answer honestly. My
answer would be, "None of your business".

Manufacturing production numbers (yes, and even the resultant company
stock prices) represent a real indicator of guns being sold.
Agreed, many are split between current owners and new owners but
again, those numbers aren't readily available. However, add in the
record number of permit applications, again split between new
applicants and renewals, a logical conclusion is that gun ownership
is going up, despite what random, limited and likely biased surveys
say. If ownership was declining, so would both new permit and renewal
applications. That has not been the case. Where required, the
permit issuing agencies have been swamped. In MA, a new permit
application typically took 6 weeks to process years ago. They are now
taking as much as 6 months due to the backlog.