The right wing anti-technology types won't like this!!!
 

In article ,
says...

On Tue, 21 May 2013 08:51:56 -0500, Boating All Out
wrote:

Yeah, don't those fools who use flashlights know that they aren't going
to work? And that car battery that starts the car, who would be so
foolish as to depend on that?

The ignorance is kind of funny. No concept of the advantage of electric
power plant efficiency vs internal combustion engine efficiency.
Basically just knees jerking all over the place.

If the power plant is an old technology coal plant, the modern
gasoline engine is a lot cleaner.

No. It's not.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/15/au...-are-electric-
cars-depends-on-where-you-plug-in.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

Even where dirty coal is generating the electricity, it takes a 40-50
mpg ICE car to beat an electric car in carbon emissions.
Who's driving a 40-50 mpg (combined) in coal country? They aren't
common, and probably never will be.
There are other power plant emissions beside greenhouse, and they aren't
addressed in the article. So you have to define "dirty" before making
such generalizations. Modern ICE cars with cats are really good at not
emitting poisons. But coal use is decreasing, probably less than 40%
total now, and will have to become "clean" to survive the EPA.

There are also transmission line losses. That averages 6-7% but in the
north east where the lines are running over the design capacity, those
losses are much higher. IAEI had an article in their magazine a few
years ago talking about the problems of line sag because these wires
are running so hot.. Heat is lost energy.

It is easy to say we will just upgrade the grid but nobody wants a
power line in their back yard.

The grid will be updated. But you won't be around to see it. Just like
my grand pappy never saw an interstate highway.
Of course maybe there'll be a zombie apocalypse. Never know.

The right wing anti-technology types won't like this!!!
 

In article ,
says...

"Boating All Out" wrote in message
...

In article ,
says...

In article ,
says...

"BAR" wrote in message
. ..


A battery is an energy storage device.

------------------------------------

Exactly. It took some other form of energy to create the charge
in
the battery. Hocus Pocus.

Yeah, don't those fools who use flashlights know that they aren't
going
to work? And that car battery that starts the car, who would be so
foolish as to depend on that?

The ignorance is kind of funny. No concept of the advantage of
electric
power plant efficiency vs internal combustion engine efficiency.
Basically just knees jerking all over the place.
Expect that from BAR, but somewhat surprised that Richard wasn't more
thoughtful before saying what he did.
Kool-Aid has strange effects.

---------------------------

OMG. You too?

Me too - what? You supported somebody (BAR) saying "The questions arise
out of forcing the new technology on to the people before it is ready."
Everybody knows a battery stores energy. Is that what you were agreeing
with? If that's the case, then good for you. There's probably somebody
out there who still thinks a battery generates electricity and never
dies, so that makes you smarter than him. And if you think a battery is
"hocus pocus," good for you on that too. Probably makes you sympatico
with some as yet unfound New Guinea aboriginals who would think a
battery is a magical device.
If you were really just stating the obvious about a battery, my
apologies. I took it as an often used poor argument against battery
power by right-wingers. Namely, that power generation is just
transferred elsewhere. That's true, but doesn't mean that batteries
aren't more efficient in fossil fuel consumption than an ICE.

The right wing anti-technology types won't like this!!!
 

On 5/21/13 5:25 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 21 May 2013 12:54:04 -0400, iBoaterer
wrote:

In article ,
says...

On Tue, 21 May 2013 08:51:56 -0500, Boating All Out
wrote:

Yeah, don't those fools who use flashlights know that they aren't going
to work? And that car battery that starts the car, who would be so
foolish as to depend on that?

The ignorance is kind of funny. No concept of the advantage of electric
power plant efficiency vs internal combustion engine efficiency.
Basically just knees jerking all over the place.

If the power plant is an old technology coal plant, the modern
gasoline engine is a lot cleaner.
There are also transmission line losses. That averages 6-7% but in the
north east where the lines are running over the design capacity, those
losses are much higher. IAEI had an article in their magazine a few
years ago talking about the problems of line sag because these wires
are running so hot.. Heat is lost energy.

It is easy to say we will just upgrade the grid but nobody wants a
power line in their back yard.

Gee, why all of a sudden it's an environmental issue and an
environmental issue only?

If electric cars are not an environmental issue, why bother with them?
If the idea of electric cars was attractive enough the market would
provide them to us without all of the government giveaways (AKA rich
people welfare)

I really tried to get on board but I still can't get the money to work
out even building a kit car, starting with a car I own. I am not rich
enough to just have an electric car as a toy.


What do you drive?

If it makes you feel better. Solar PV is starting to look attractive
to me but, as usual, the government is the biggest stumbling block.



I'd buy an all-electric car the size of a Toyota Corolla if it sold for
about $20,000, had a 300-mile range at 55-60 mph, and there weren't long
term issues with the batteries.

The right wing anti-technology types won't like this!!!
 

In article ,
says...


I obviously speak an unknown foreign language when trying to discuss
anything with Iboaterer, so I'll try to do better with you.


He's never wrong about anything, I'll give him that.

All I was pointing out was that the energy contained in a battery
powered automobile was created somewhere outside of that battery.
It may have come from fossil fuels, including natural gas, hydro,
wind, solar nuclear or whatever. I think everyone realizes that. I
agree that the electric motor is far more efficient than a gasoline or
diesel powered engine in terms of converting stored energy into
something that produces useful work. No debate from me there.

My reasoning for being less than optimistic about battery powered
autos is not because I don't embrace new technology. Hell, I made a
decent living for almost 30 years living and breathing new technology.

My reasoning is more related to the public's likely acceptance of
battery power anytime in the near future due to it's current
limitations. If it isn't accepted (or mandated) the development of
better batteries and battery powered autos will suffer and be slow in
coming. Some companies have already gone belly up and the few that
show promise have been living off of federal subsidies. A major
shift to natural gas powered cars or maybe even a breakthrough in fuel
cell technology will put these strictly battery powered cars in the
archives of history.


Not at all, unless CNG or fuel cells ever become cheaper than
electricity. CNG has even more infrastructure problems than
electricity, and fuel cells are pure "Popular Mechanics" last I heard.
Where are the CNG and fuel cell cars? How are they doing in the
marketplace? Electrics and plug-in hybrids are already here.
Besides, a common tendency is to think that "electric" means "only
electric." A plug-in hybrid can be used "only electric," or "not much
electric" if the ICE generator is used often.
I don't know why people can't accept the fact that a plug-in that gets
most people their daily driving miles on relatively cheap electricity is
a "good thing." Especially when it also has an on-board ICE to remove
any range anxiety.
If anything, CNG or fuel cells will be used to run the ICE generator.

The American culture includes freedom of movement. People travel and
often drive long distances. Battery powered vehicles just aren't up
to the task of seamlessly replacing conventional fossil fuel engines
without a major change in our driving habits, desires and overall love
affair with travel by car. Don't see that changing in the near term.


The Volt has already denied what you said, and Honda, Ford and others
are playing catch up as fast as they can.
Any plug-in hybrid can be driven all-electric by enough people for them
to make it in the marketplace on that basis alone - if the buy price is
right.
The average person drives an average 40 miles a day.
There are plenty of Volt drivers who can count on the fingers of one
hand their gas station visits in a year of driving.
It's only pure electrics that suffer range anxiety, and that won't
change unless a standardized battery swapping infrastructure is built.
Big task.
But plug-in hybrids work for just about everybody. As costs come down,
that's an easily seen future. It's only the price holding it back.
But that held cell phones and PC's back too.

Most of the tiny, roller-skate-on-wheels electric cars being marketed
today are good for about 80 miles before recharge. A full recharge
takes 4-8 hours.
Not very comfortable and unrealistic for a 400 mile trip. They are
probably ideal for local, run to the store use, or short commuting
to work but the average family is going to need something more
substantial for longer trips. How many people are going to spend big
bucks for a battery powered, local commuter car in addition to the
standard, family sedan?


Prices are already coming down for plug-in hybrids. The next gen Volt
is supposed to be $10k less.
How many people?
That's purely a decision that the marketplace will decide. It's beyond
the control of those who have a love affair with the ICE.

Some, like the Tesla Model S, claims a 265 mile range. Much better
but it requires a special type of charger designed specifically for
it's type of batteries and still takes an hour or so to recharge.
Nice car and all but at $80K for a "look at me, I'm Green" with still
limited range, it isn't going to do it for most.

One thing about lithium-ion batteries that has been known for years is
their poor performance at temperatures below freezing and more
importantly it's inability to be safely charged at temperatures at or
below freezing. There are many sources containing warnings about
this with regard to leaving your cell phone charging in your car and
the potential damage it can produce in the colder climates but I
haven't heard a thing about charging lithium ion car batteries at
below freezing temperatures. Has that problem been fixed? I haven't
heard boo.

Of course it has. Information on heating/cooling of the batteries is
widely available on the internet. Volts are sold in all climates, and
no manufacturer will rely solely on climate to determine the market.

The right wing anti-technology types won't like this!!!
 

On 5/21/2013 5:06 PM, Eisboch wrote:



"Boating All Out" wrote in message
...

In article ,
says...


"BAR" wrote in message
. ..


A battery is an energy storage device.

------------------------------------

Exactly. It took some other form of energy to create the charge in
the battery. Hocus Pocus.

Yeah, don't those fools who use flashlights know that they aren't going
to work? And that car battery that starts the car, who would be so
foolish as to depend on that?

The ignorance is kind of funny. No concept of the advantage of
electric
power plant efficiency vs internal combustion engine efficiency.
Basically just knees jerking all over the place.
Expect that from BAR, but somewhat surprised that Richard wasn't more
thoughtful before saying what he did.
Kool-Aid has strange effects.

---------------------------------------------

I obviously speak an unknown foreign language when trying to discuss
anything with Iboaterer, so I'll try to do better with you.

All I was pointing out was that the energy contained in a battery
powered automobile was created somewhere outside of that battery.
It may have come from fossil fuels, including natural gas, hydro, wind,
solar nuclear or whatever. I think everyone realizes that. I agree
that the electric motor is far more efficient than a gasoline or diesel
powered engine in terms of converting stored energy into something that
produces useful work. No debate from me there.

My reasoning for being less than optimistic about battery powered autos
is not because I don't embrace new technology. Hell, I made a decent
living for almost 30 years living and breathing new technology.

My reasoning is more related to the public's likely acceptance of
battery power anytime in the near future due to it's current
limitations. If it isn't accepted (or mandated) the development of
better batteries and battery powered autos will suffer and be slow in
coming. Some companies have already gone belly up and the few that show
promise have been living off of federal subsidies. A major shift to
natural gas powered cars or maybe even a breakthrough in fuel cell
technology will put these strictly battery powered cars in the archives
of history.

The American culture includes freedom of movement. People travel and
often drive long distances. Battery powered vehicles just aren't up to
the task of seamlessly replacing conventional fossil fuel engines
without a major change in our driving habits, desires and overall love
affair with travel by car. Don't see that changing in the near term.

Most of the tiny, roller-skate-on-wheels electric cars being marketed
today are good for about 80 miles before recharge. A full recharge
takes 4-8 hours.
Not very comfortable and unrealistic for a 400 mile trip. They are
probably ideal for local, run to the store use, or short commuting to
work but the average family is going to need something more substantial
for longer trips. How many people are going to spend big bucks for a
battery powered, local commuter car in addition to the standard, family
sedan?

Some, like the Tesla Model S, claims a 265 mile range. Much better but
it requires a special type of charger designed specifically for it's
type of batteries and still takes an hour or so to recharge. Nice car
and all but at $80K for a "look at me, I'm Green" with still limited
range, it isn't going to do it for most.

One thing about lithium-ion batteries that has been known for years is
their poor performance at temperatures below freezing and more
importantly it's inability to be safely charged at temperatures at or
below freezing. There are many sources containing warnings about this
with regard to leaving your cell phone charging in your car and the
potential damage it can produce in the colder climates but I haven't
heard a thing about charging lithium ion car batteries at below freezing
temperatures. Has that problem been fixed? I haven't heard boo.





I just bought an electric bike. The 9AH Lion Battery for it was $400.
It's supposed to be good for 2000 charge cycles. I'll let you know If I
have trouble charging it in freezing weather.

The right wing anti-technology types won't like this!!!
 

On 5/21/2013 7:23 PM, Hank© wrote:
On 5/21/2013 5:06 PM, Eisboch wrote:



"Boating All Out" wrote in message
...

In article ,
says...


"BAR" wrote in message
. ..


A battery is an energy storage device.

------------------------------------

Exactly. It took some other form of energy to create the charge in
the battery. Hocus Pocus.

Yeah, don't those fools who use flashlights know that they aren't going
to work? And that car battery that starts the car, who would be so
foolish as to depend on that?

The ignorance is kind of funny. No concept of the advantage of
electric
power plant efficiency vs internal combustion engine efficiency.
Basically just knees jerking all over the place.
Expect that from BAR, but somewhat surprised that Richard wasn't more
thoughtful before saying what he did.
Kool-Aid has strange effects.

---------------------------------------------

I obviously speak an unknown foreign language when trying to discuss
anything with Iboaterer, so I'll try to do better with you.

All I was pointing out was that the energy contained in a battery
powered automobile was created somewhere outside of that battery.
It may have come from fossil fuels, including natural gas, hydro, wind,
solar nuclear or whatever. I think everyone realizes that. I agree
that the electric motor is far more efficient than a gasoline or diesel
powered engine in terms of converting stored energy into something that
produces useful work. No debate from me there.

My reasoning for being less than optimistic about battery powered autos
is not because I don't embrace new technology. Hell, I made a decent
living for almost 30 years living and breathing new technology.

My reasoning is more related to the public's likely acceptance of
battery power anytime in the near future due to it's current
limitations. If it isn't accepted (or mandated) the development of
better batteries and battery powered autos will suffer and be slow in
coming. Some companies have already gone belly up and the few that show
promise have been living off of federal subsidies. A major shift to
natural gas powered cars or maybe even a breakthrough in fuel cell
technology will put these strictly battery powered cars in the archives
of history.

The American culture includes freedom of movement. People travel and
often drive long distances. Battery powered vehicles just aren't up to
the task of seamlessly replacing conventional fossil fuel engines
without a major change in our driving habits, desires and overall love
affair with travel by car. Don't see that changing in the near term.

Most of the tiny, roller-skate-on-wheels electric cars being marketed
today are good for about 80 miles before recharge. A full recharge
takes 4-8 hours.
Not very comfortable and unrealistic for a 400 mile trip. They are
probably ideal for local, run to the store use, or short commuting to
work but the average family is going to need something more substantial
for longer trips. How many people are going to spend big bucks for a
battery powered, local commuter car in addition to the standard, family
sedan?

Some, like the Tesla Model S, claims a 265 mile range. Much better but
it requires a special type of charger designed specifically for it's
type of batteries and still takes an hour or so to recharge. Nice car
and all but at $80K for a "look at me, I'm Green" with still limited
range, it isn't going to do it for most.

One thing about lithium-ion batteries that has been known for years is
their poor performance at temperatures below freezing and more
importantly it's inability to be safely charged at temperatures at or
below freezing. There are many sources containing warnings about this
with regard to leaving your cell phone charging in your car and the
potential damage it can produce in the colder climates but I haven't
heard a thing about charging lithium ion car batteries at below freezing
temperatures. Has that problem been fixed? I haven't heard boo.





I just bought an electric bike. The 9AH Lion Battery for it was $400.
It's supposed to be good for 2000 charge cycles. I'll let you know If I
have trouble charging it in freezing weather.

Which one did you get?

The right wing anti-technology types won't like this!!!
 

True North wrote:
Natural born liar at work again?
Harry never leaves his computer. Are you new?

The right wing anti-technology types won't like this!!!
 

On 5/21/2013 7:29 PM, JustWaitAFrekinMinute wrote:
On 5/21/2013 7:23 PM, Hank© wrote:
On 5/21/2013 5:06 PM, Eisboch wrote:



"Boating All Out" wrote in message
...

In article ,
says...


"BAR" wrote in message
. ..


A battery is an energy storage device.

------------------------------------

Exactly. It took some other form of energy to create the charge
in
the battery. Hocus Pocus.

Yeah, don't those fools who use flashlights know that they aren't going
to work? And that car battery that starts the car, who would be so
foolish as to depend on that?

The ignorance is kind of funny. No concept of the advantage of
electric
power plant efficiency vs internal combustion engine efficiency.
Basically just knees jerking all over the place.
Expect that from BAR, but somewhat surprised that Richard wasn't more
thoughtful before saying what he did.
Kool-Aid has strange effects.

---------------------------------------------

I obviously speak an unknown foreign language when trying to discuss
anything with Iboaterer, so I'll try to do better with you.

All I was pointing out was that the energy contained in a battery
powered automobile was created somewhere outside of that battery.
It may have come from fossil fuels, including natural gas, hydro, wind,
solar nuclear or whatever. I think everyone realizes that. I agree
that the electric motor is far more efficient than a gasoline or diesel
powered engine in terms of converting stored energy into something that
produces useful work. No debate from me there.

My reasoning for being less than optimistic about battery powered autos
is not because I don't embrace new technology. Hell, I made a decent
living for almost 30 years living and breathing new technology.

My reasoning is more related to the public's likely acceptance of
battery power anytime in the near future due to it's current
limitations. If it isn't accepted (or mandated) the development of
better batteries and battery powered autos will suffer and be slow in
coming. Some companies have already gone belly up and the few that show
promise have been living off of federal subsidies. A major shift to
natural gas powered cars or maybe even a breakthrough in fuel cell
technology will put these strictly battery powered cars in the archives
of history.

The American culture includes freedom of movement. People travel and
often drive long distances. Battery powered vehicles just aren't up to
the task of seamlessly replacing conventional fossil fuel engines
without a major change in our driving habits, desires and overall love
affair with travel by car. Don't see that changing in the near term.

Most of the tiny, roller-skate-on-wheels electric cars being marketed
today are good for about 80 miles before recharge. A full recharge
takes 4-8 hours.
Not very comfortable and unrealistic for a 400 mile trip. They are
probably ideal for local, run to the store use, or short commuting to
work but the average family is going to need something more substantial
for longer trips. How many people are going to spend big bucks for a
battery powered, local commuter car in addition to the standard, family
sedan?

Some, like the Tesla Model S, claims a 265 mile range. Much better but
it requires a special type of charger designed specifically for it's
type of batteries and still takes an hour or so to recharge. Nice car
and all but at $80K for a "look at me, I'm Green" with still limited
range, it isn't going to do it for most.

One thing about lithium-ion batteries that has been known for years is
their poor performance at temperatures below freezing and more
importantly it's inability to be safely charged at temperatures at or
below freezing. There are many sources containing warnings about this
with regard to leaving your cell phone charging in your car and the
potential damage it can produce in the colder climates but I haven't
heard a thing about charging lithium ion car batteries at below freezing
temperatures. Has that problem been fixed? I haven't heard boo.





I just bought an electric bike. The 9AH Lion Battery for it was $400.
It's supposed to be good for 2000 charge cycles. I'll let you know If I
have trouble charging it in freezing weather.

Which one did you get?

Prodeco

The right wing anti-technology types won't like this!!!
 

On Tue, 21 May 2013 17:25:52 -0400, wrote:

If it makes you feel better. Solar PV is starting to look attractive
to me but, as usual, the government is the biggest stumbling block.

===

Have you started working the permitting issues/process for solar cells
on the roof? I'm going to start talking with people about it when I
get home. I'll put some on the boat regardless - should be able to
get almost 1,000 watts on top of the flybridge enclosure. That would
save a lot of generator time when anchored out.

The right wing anti-technology types won't like this!!!
 

On Tue, 21 May 2013 17:06:55 -0400, "Eisboch" wrote:

Most of the tiny, roller-skate-on-wheels electric cars being marketed
today are good for about 80 miles before recharge. A full recharge
takes 4-8 hours.
Not very comfortable and unrealistic for a 400 mile trip.

=========

I would guesstimate that about 95% of my driving could be done with a
reliable range of 120 miles. Without some breakthrough it may never
be realistic to take an EV on long trips. Most people have a second
vehicle of some sort however.