The Bush-Cheney Legacy
 

NY state senator 'torture' tweet spurs controversy

PAWLING, N.Y. (AP) — A New York state senator has spurred controversy
online by asking in a tweet if the Boston Marathon bombing suspect
arrested Friday should be tortured.

Second-term Republican Sen. Greg Ball of the Hudson Valley tweeted just
after authorities in Boston captured Dzhokhar Tsarnaev (joh-KHAR'
tsahr-NEYE'-ehv) Friday evening.

Ball's tweet calls the suspect "scum bag No. 2" and asks who wouldn't
use torture on him to save more lives.

Many tweets responding to Ball were critical of his remarks.

Ball issued a statement Saturday defending his position on torture
without mentioning his tweet. He says he is not shy in saying torture is
justified in the war against terror if it can save lives.
- - - - -

And since the use of torture has been debunked...right on.

The Bush-Cheney Legacy
 

On 4/21/13 12:56 AM, wrote:
On Sat, 20 Apr 2013 21:07:21 -0400, "F.O.A.D." wrote:

NY state senator 'torture' tweet spurs controversy

PAWLING, N.Y. (AP) — A New York state senator has spurred controversy
online by asking in a tweet if the Boston Marathon bombing suspect
arrested Friday should be tortured.

Second-term Republican Sen. Greg Ball of the Hudson Valley tweeted just
after authorities in Boston captured Dzhokhar Tsarnaev (joh-KHAR'
tsahr-NEYE'-ehv) Friday evening.

Ball's tweet calls the suspect "scum bag No. 2" and asks who wouldn't
use torture on him to save more lives.

Many tweets responding to Ball were critical of his remarks.

Ball issued a statement Saturday defending his position on torture
without mentioning his tweet. He says he is not shy in saying torture is
justified in the war against terror if it can save lives.
- - - - -

And since the use of torture has been debunked...right on.


I even think deferring the Miranda warning is a mistake.
The only real leverage the government has is taking the death penalty
off the table. If this guy doesn't care about that, he has no reason
to say anything.

The feds are the only ones with a death penalty in this case anyway.
Massachusetts will be able to bring multiple life sentences tho.

We certainly do not want this guy getting off on some kind of
technicality because they did not follow the same procedures they
would for any other murderer.



I think the imposition of the "public safety exception" will stand
scrutiny in this case. The Tsarnaevs allegedly were the bombers, with
more than one bomb, with additional explosive devices, and it is
reasonable under the "exception" to interrogate the surviving brother
about the possible existence of additional devices that might be set up
as booby traps or as bombs scheduled on a clock timer to go off a few
days or a week later.

Tsarnaev grew up in this country. I'm sure he understands and speaks
English, and he's seen enough TV to know that he doesn't have to say a
word and that he can demand to have a lawyer present.

Now, if the DoJ prosecutors tell Tsarnaev in the presence of a lawyer
that the death penalty is off the table if he fully cooperates, he
probably will sing. Getting complete information probably is worth more
than another execution.

The Bush-Cheney Legacy
 

On Sun, 21 Apr 2013 09:09:07 -0400, "F.O.A.D." wrote:

Getting complete information probably is worth more
than another execution.

===

Since the older (dead) brother was no doubt the ring leader, it is
entirely possible that the complete information will never be known.

The Bush-Cheney Legacy
 

"Wayne B" wrote in message
...

On Sun, 21 Apr 2013 09:09:07 -0400, "F.O.A.D." wrote:

Getting complete information probably is worth more
than another execution.

===

Since the older (dead) brother was no doubt the ring leader, it is
entirely possible that the complete information will never be known.

------------------------------------------------------


As more details of the events of last week become known, the more it
becomes obvious that mistakes where made.

Law enforcement agencies including the FBI deserve a lot of credit and
thanks for the work they did however they didn't "find" the suspects.
Private citizens did. Public and business sources provided the
pictures and videos that identified who placed the bombs at the
marathon.
A private citizen was hi-jacked in his car and provided the
information required to locate and chase down the stolen vehicle. The
brothers told him "they were the bombers".

Furthermore, it has now become public knowledge that the FBI was aware
of the older brother's possible link connection to radical influences
by terrorist groups, as recently as 2011. Before that became known
publically, they denied any knowledge of him.

The older brother got out of the car in Watertown and started walking
towards the growing law enforcement presence. Fearing a potential
suicide bomber attack, law enforcement opened fire and filled him full
of holes. The doctors who worked on him have reported that he had so
many injuries that they can't determine what exactly caused his death.

Then, after almost 24 hours of a shutdown of a major area in the state
and with an army of law enforcement agencies conducting a search, they
couldn't find the younger brother. Within 15 minutes of lifting the
ban of leaving your house, a private citizen found him in his boat and
called 911.

The media is full of amazing pictures of FLIR images showing the
suspect cowering in the boat in the guy's yard. It's great
technology and has many good uses, but it didn't *FIND* the suspect.
The private citizen boat owner did.

Here's where I started to have some questions about how this was
handled. It was imperative that he be captured alive, if possible.
So what did law enforcement do? Opened fire on the boat (that had
a full tank of gas) with fully automatic weapons. At least two
weapons can be heard on the videos released by the media, with large
capacity magazines being emptied into the boat. This is how you
capture someone alive?

The Bush-Cheney Legacy
 

On 4/21/13 9:59 AM, Eisboch wrote:


The older brother got out of the car in Watertown and started walking
towards the growing law enforcement presence. Fearing a potential
suicide bomber attack, law enforcement opened fire and filled him full
of holes. The doctors who worked on him have reported that he had so
many injuries that they can't determine what exactly caused his death.

....

Here's where I started to have some questions about how this was
handled. It was imperative that he be captured alive, if possible.
So what did law enforcement do? Opened fire on the boat (that had a
full tank of gas) with fully automatic weapons. At least two weapons
can be heard on the videos released by the media, with large capacity
magazines being emptied into the boat. This is how you capture someone
alive?


I certainly appreciate why the cops were fearful of a guy who might have
had a bomb strapped to his chest, but I've never understood why it is
necessary in so many instances to respond to a threat, real or
perceived, with a hailstorm of bullets, especially when only one or two
guys are involved. Perhaps my theory is correct, that cops are really
bad shots, and they don't have enough mandatory practice with their
firearms.

The Bush-Cheney Legacy
 

In article ,
says...

"Wayne B" wrote in message
...

On Sun, 21 Apr 2013 09:09:07 -0400, "F.O.A.D." wrote:

Getting complete information probably is worth more
than another execution.

===

Since the older (dead) brother was no doubt the ring leader, it is
entirely possible that the complete information will never be known.

------------------------------------------------------


As more details of the events of last week become known, the more it
becomes obvious that mistakes where made.

Law enforcement agencies including the FBI deserve a lot of credit and
thanks for the work they did however they didn't "find" the suspects.
Private citizens did. Public and business sources provided the
pictures and videos that identified who placed the bombs at the
marathon.
A private citizen was hi-jacked in his car and provided the
information required to locate and chase down the stolen vehicle. The
brothers told him "they were the bombers".

Furthermore, it has now become public knowledge that the FBI was aware
of the older brother's possible link connection to radical influences
by terrorist groups, as recently as 2011. Before that became known
publically, they denied any knowledge of him.

The older brother got out of the car in Watertown and started walking
towards the growing law enforcement presence. Fearing a potential
suicide bomber attack, law enforcement opened fire and filled him full
of holes. The doctors who worked on him have reported that he had so
many injuries that they can't determine what exactly caused his death.

Then, after almost 24 hours of a shutdown of a major area in the state
and with an army of law enforcement agencies conducting a search, they
couldn't find the younger brother. Within 15 minutes of lifting the
ban of leaving your house, a private citizen found him in his boat and
called 911.

The media is full of amazing pictures of FLIR images showing the
suspect cowering in the boat in the guy's yard. It's great
technology and has many good uses, but it didn't *FIND* the suspect.
The private citizen boat owner did.

Here's where I started to have some questions about how this was
handled. It was imperative that he be captured alive, if possible.
So what did law enforcement do? Opened fire on the boat (that had
a full tank of gas) with fully automatic weapons. At least two
weapons can be heard on the videos released by the media, with large
capacity magazines being emptied into the boat. This is how you
capture someone alive?

Yet another reason to note that just because someone has weapons
training doesn't mean that they'll always be prudent and not knee jerk a
reaction.

The Bush-Cheney Legacy
 

"F.O.A.D." wrote in message ...

On 4/21/13 9:59 AM, Eisboch wrote:


The older brother got out of the car in Watertown and started
walking
towards the growing law enforcement presence. Fearing a potential
suicide bomber attack, law enforcement opened fire and filled him
full
of holes. The doctors who worked on him have reported that he had
so
many injuries that they can't determine what exactly caused his
death.

....

Here's where I started to have some questions about how this was
handled. It was imperative that he be captured alive, if possible.
So what did law enforcement do? Opened fire on the boat (that
had a
full tank of gas) with fully automatic weapons. At least two
weapons
can be heard on the videos released by the media, with large
capacity
magazines being emptied into the boat. This is how you capture
someone
alive?


I certainly appreciate why the cops were fearful of a guy who might
have
had a bomb strapped to his chest, but I've never understood why it is
necessary in so many instances to respond to a threat, real or
perceived, with a hailstorm of bullets, especially when only one or
two
guys are involved. Perhaps my theory is correct, that cops are really
bad shots, and they don't have enough mandatory practice with their
firearms.

---------------------------------------

I don't know about that because I have only limited experience
witnessing law enforcement people shooting at the range.
The four that I know ... a local cop, two state cops and another who
works for homeland defense in some capacity are all phenomenal
marksmen. Intuitively I suspect the average Boston cop who pounds a
daily beat on foot probably isn't a great shot but I suspect many of
the SWAT team and special operations units that were involved in
hunting down the marathon bombers are excellent marksmen.

Also, I doubt very much the actions taken were a free-for-all. Orders
to open fire must have been coordinated with those in charge.
That's why I don't get the action of opening fire on the guy in the
boat, sight unseen, if the goal was to capture him alive. They
couldn't have known if he was armed, had a bomb, or was even still
breathing. There are no reports of the suspect opening fire first.
It was *after* that exchange ... well, it really wasn't an "exchange"
.... that a negotiator got involved and had the suspect stand up and
lift his shirt to demonstrate he was unarmed and "unbombed".

The Bush-Cheney Legacy
 

In article , says...

On Sun, 21 Apr 2013 09:59:00 -0400, "Eisboch" wrote:

As more details of the events of last week become known, the more it
becomes obvious that mistakes where made.

Law enforcement agencies including the FBI deserve a lot of credit and
thanks for the work they did however they didn't "find" the suspects.
Private citizens did. Public and business sources provided the
pictures and videos that identified who placed the bombs at the
marathon.
A private citizen was hi-jacked in his car and provided the
information required to locate and chase down the stolen vehicle. The
brothers told him "they were the bombers".

Furthermore, it has now become public knowledge that the FBI was aware
of the older brother's possible link connection to radical influences
by terrorist groups, as recently as 2011. Before that became known
publically, they denied any knowledge of him.

The older brother got out of the car in Watertown and started walking
towards the growing law enforcement presence. Fearing a potential
suicide bomber attack, law enforcement opened fire and filled him full
of holes. The doctors who worked on him have reported that he had so
many injuries that they can't determine what exactly caused his death.

Then, after almost 24 hours of a shutdown of a major area in the state
and with an army of law enforcement agencies conducting a search, they
couldn't find the younger brother. Within 15 minutes of lifting the
ban of leaving your house, a private citizen found him in his boat and
called 911.

The media is full of amazing pictures of FLIR images showing the
suspect cowering in the boat in the guy's yard. It's great
technology and has many good uses, but it didn't *FIND* the suspect.
The private citizen boat owner did.

Here's where I started to have some questions about how this was
handled. It was imperative that he be captured alive, if possible.
So what did law enforcement do? Opened fire on the boat (that had
a full tank of gas) with fully automatic weapons. At least two
weapons can be heard on the videos released by the media, with large
capacity magazines being emptied into the boat. This is how you
capture someone alive?


I am sure there will be questions about how the FBI dropped the ball
on the older brother.
This is not some ambiguous chatter about "Bin Ladin Determined To
Strike in US". This was a specific, identified person who was reported
to the FBI They gave him a cursory look and then ignored him until
someone tweeted them the name from pictures they already had.
This crime was solved with a department store camera, social media and
an alert citizen, not stellar police work.

Your last sentence needs repeating: "This crime was solved with a departmnet store camera,
socila media and an alert citizen, not stellar police work."

The Bush-Cheney Legacy
 

On Sun, 21 Apr 2013 09:59:00 -0400, "Eisboch" wrote:



"Wayne B" wrote in message
.. .

On Sun, 21 Apr 2013 09:09:07 -0400, "F.O.A.D." wrote:

Getting complete information probably is worth more
than another execution.

===

Since the older (dead) brother was no doubt the ring leader, it is
entirely possible that the complete information will never be known.

------------------------------------------------------


As more details of the events of last week become known, the more it
becomes obvious that mistakes where made.

Law enforcement agencies including the FBI deserve a lot of credit and
thanks for the work they did however they didn't "find" the suspects.
Private citizens did. Public and business sources provided the
pictures and videos that identified who placed the bombs at the
marathon.
A private citizen was hi-jacked in his car and provided the
information required to locate and chase down the stolen vehicle. The
brothers told him "they were the bombers".

Furthermore, it has now become public knowledge that the FBI was aware
of the older brother's possible link connection to radical influences
by terrorist groups, as recently as 2011. Before that became known
publically, they denied any knowledge of him.

The older brother got out of the car in Watertown and started walking
towards the growing law enforcement presence. Fearing a potential
suicide bomber attack, law enforcement opened fire and filled him full
of holes. The doctors who worked on him have reported that he had so
many injuries that they can't determine what exactly caused his death.

Then, after almost 24 hours of a shutdown of a major area in the state
and with an army of law enforcement agencies conducting a search, they
couldn't find the younger brother. Within 15 minutes of lifting the
ban of leaving your house, a private citizen found him in his boat and
called 911.

The media is full of amazing pictures of FLIR images showing the
suspect cowering in the boat in the guy's yard. It's great
technology and has many good uses, but it didn't *FIND* the suspect.
The private citizen boat owner did.

Here's where I started to have some questions about how this was
handled. It was imperative that he be captured alive, if possible.
So what did law enforcement do? Opened fire on the boat (that had
a full tank of gas) with fully automatic weapons. At least two
weapons can be heard on the videos released by the media, with large
capacity magazines being emptied into the boat. This is how you
capture someone alive?


I think they probably knew where in the boat the asshole was located and opened fire for two
reasons; to let the asshole know there were lots of weapons out there and to get enough damage done
to the boat so the owner could get a new one.


Salmonbait

--
'Name-calling' - the liberals' last stand.

The Bush-Cheney Legacy
 

On Sun, 21 Apr 2013 11:55:56 -0400, wrote:

BTW I hope that guy has good insurance on his boat. I think it was
beat up a bit in the siege.
OTOH it is probably more valuable now.

====

Supposedly he has donations coming in from all over the place.