On Sat, 06 Apr 2013 01:41:33 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 5 Apr 2013 17:40:26 -0500, Boating All Out
wrote:

In article ,
says...

On Fri, 5 Apr 2013 15:03:27 -0500, Boating All Out
wrote:

Eisboch just explained it. If regular ATF dealer inspections took place
and laws were enforced, probably at least half of these "legal" gun
dealers would be shut down.
There are no real gun laws in the U.S. if existing laws aren't enforced.
Many are written to be unenforcible.
And all the Fed laws were basically written by the NRA.
Gun laws are a joke, the ATF powers to regulate "legal" gun dealers is a
joke, and the NRA and gun dealers laugh their way to the bank.
Hell, the NRA even opposes laws requiring you report your gun was
stolen.
Maybe the NRA wrote a law that the prevents public disclosure of why a
dealer has his license revoked. Wouldn't surprise me a bit.
Maybe the ATF found that if they did inspections this Sandy Hook dealer
would have been shut down years ago, so they are covering their own
asses as to their ineffectiveness.
Might take a FOIA action to get the reason.
Any time you hear somebody say "just enforce existing laws" regarding
guns, laugh. Because you were told a joke.
This covers some of it.
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/...f-gun-laws-nra


Nice rant and I agree the ATF is poorly staffed but they have plenty
of power over a dealer. They can pretty much yank a license on a whim
and it is up to the dealer to demonstrate why they should give it
back. All it really takes is any kind of small error, omission or
typo in the 4473s or the bound book.

Maybe you should talk to a dealer or two before you pop off.

Maybe you should quit bull****ting about what you know little, and
provide cites. You have not disproved a single point I made in what you
call a "rant."

http://www.atf.gov/publications/fact...factsheet-ffl-
compliance.html
"There were approximately 69,000 FFLs engaged in business in fiscal year
2012 (excluding persons holding collector licenses). During that time,
ATF conducted more than 13,100 firearms compliance. About 50 percent of
the licensees inspected were determined to be in full compliance with
the law and regulations and no violations were cited. Approximately 67
federal firearms licenses were revoked or were denied renewal due to
willful violations of the GCA. This figure is approximately 0.5 percent
of the number of licensees inspected."

13,100 inspections in 2012.
Only 50% of dealers in full compliance.
That's 6,550 inspections finding violations.
67 license revocations or renewal denials.

Those are the facts, gun nut. Some "whim."
Read the entire ATF FAQ to see how ATF plays nicey-nicey with dealers.
Here's how "whims" work in the appeals process.
Also easy to look up.

http://www.atf.gov/publications/fact...fl-revocation-
process.html
"Of those cases where FFLs filed a petition for de novo review with the
U.S. District Court from 2001 to 2012, 85 out of 89 final decisions in
District Court supported ATF?s decision to revoke. Twenty-four of the
District Court Decisions were appealed to the Circuit Court of Appeals;
all 24 of the Circuit Court decisions upheld ATF?s actions. Finally, two
of the Court of Appeals decisions were appealed to the United States
Supreme Court. The Supreme Court ?denied cert? on both of those cases."

Some "whim" gun nut. It really appears just don't want ANY regulation -
because you're a crazy libertarian with no sense of scale or proportion.
Everything revolves around you and your wants.
Bottom line, YOU "popped off" without thinking or researching.
But if anybody is going to pop off like that, it's a gun nut.
Shame on you.




Nice puff piece but ATF managed to transit that whole circuitous route
in 6 days and 2 of them were Saturday and Sunday.
It certainly appears that if they want you, they can get you.

The official "revocation" may take 60+ days if you can afford a lawyer
capable of arguing with the government but they can suspend your
license, pretty much on the spot.

I have already agreed that ATF is understaffed and they don't have the
manpower to do more than a cursory inspection of dealer records, but
just like IRS, OSHA or any other federal regulatory agency, if they
really take the time to tear your business apart, they will find
violations. It seems like they were sent in there to shut this guy
down and they did.

Well ****head, if the ATF finds violations, we're not talking about
cheating on your taxes. They need to shut down the company. We're
talking about 20 little kids getting murdered.

Your ****ing libertarian nonsense is insulting to anyone with even a
half way understanding of how this country works.

In article , says...

On Sat, 06 Apr 2013 01:41:33 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 5 Apr 2013 17:40:26 -0500, Boating All Out
wrote:

In article ,
says...

On Fri, 5 Apr 2013 15:03:27 -0500, Boating All Out
wrote:

Eisboch just explained it. If regular ATF dealer inspections took place
and laws were enforced, probably at least half of these "legal" gun
dealers would be shut down.
There are no real gun laws in the U.S. if existing laws aren't enforced.
Many are written to be unenforcible.
And all the Fed laws were basically written by the NRA.
Gun laws are a joke, the ATF powers to regulate "legal" gun dealers is a
joke, and the NRA and gun dealers laugh their way to the bank.
Hell, the NRA even opposes laws requiring you report your gun was
stolen.
Maybe the NRA wrote a law that the prevents public disclosure of why a
dealer has his license revoked. Wouldn't surprise me a bit.
Maybe the ATF found that if they did inspections this Sandy Hook dealer
would have been shut down years ago, so they are covering their own
asses as to their ineffectiveness.
Might take a FOIA action to get the reason.
Any time you hear somebody say "just enforce existing laws" regarding
guns, laugh. Because you were told a joke.
This covers some of it.
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/...f-gun-laws-nra


Nice rant and I agree the ATF is poorly staffed but they have plenty
of power over a dealer. They can pretty much yank a license on a whim
and it is up to the dealer to demonstrate why they should give it
back. All it really takes is any kind of small error, omission or
typo in the 4473s or the bound book.

Maybe you should talk to a dealer or two before you pop off.

Maybe you should quit bull****ting about what you know little, and
provide cites. You have not disproved a single point I made in what you
call a "rant."

http://www.atf.gov/publications/fact...factsheet-ffl-
compliance.html
"There were approximately 69,000 FFLs engaged in business in fiscal year
2012 (excluding persons holding collector licenses). During that time,
ATF conducted more than 13,100 firearms compliance. About 50 percent of
the licensees inspected were determined to be in full compliance with
the law and regulations and no violations were cited. Approximately 67
federal firearms licenses were revoked or were denied renewal due to
willful violations of the GCA. This figure is approximately 0.5 percent
of the number of licensees inspected."

13,100 inspections in 2012.
Only 50% of dealers in full compliance.
That's 6,550 inspections finding violations.
67 license revocations or renewal denials.

Those are the facts, gun nut. Some "whim."
Read the entire ATF FAQ to see how ATF plays nicey-nicey with dealers.
Here's how "whims" work in the appeals process.
Also easy to look up.

http://www.atf.gov/publications/fact...fl-revocation-
process.html
"Of those cases where FFLs filed a petition for de novo review with the
U.S. District Court from 2001 to 2012, 85 out of 89 final decisions in
District Court supported ATF?s decision to revoke. Twenty-four of the
District Court Decisions were appealed to the Circuit Court of Appeals;
all 24 of the Circuit Court decisions upheld ATF?s actions. Finally, two
of the Court of Appeals decisions were appealed to the United States
Supreme Court. The Supreme Court ?denied cert? on both of those cases."

Some "whim" gun nut. It really appears just don't want ANY regulation -
because you're a crazy libertarian with no sense of scale or proportion.
Everything revolves around you and your wants.
Bottom line, YOU "popped off" without thinking or researching.
But if anybody is going to pop off like that, it's a gun nut.
Shame on you.




Nice puff piece but ATF managed to transit that whole circuitous route
in 6 days and 2 of them were Saturday and Sunday.
It certainly appears that if they want you, they can get you.

The official "revocation" may take 60+ days if you can afford a lawyer
capable of arguing with the government but they can suspend your
license, pretty much on the spot.

I have already agreed that ATF is understaffed and they don't have the
manpower to do more than a cursory inspection of dealer records, but
just like IRS, OSHA or any other federal regulatory agency, if they
really take the time to tear your business apart, they will find
violations. It seems like they were sent in there to shut this guy
down and they did.

Well ****head, if the ATF finds violations, we're not talking about
cheating on your taxes. They need to shut down the company. We're
talking about 20 little kids getting murdered.

Your ****ing libertarian nonsense is insulting to anyone with even a
half way understanding of how this country works.

Why do federal prosecutors use firearms violations as bargining chips when pressuring the
alleged criminals to please guilty.

Shouldn't a law be enforced regardless of prosecutorial discrestion.

"F.O.A.D." wrote in message
m...



How many people in the U.S.A. died on 9/11 as a result of Bush's
incompetency?

-------------------------------------------------------

The number that died as a result of Bill Clinton's incompetency, if
you insist on using that description.

The Clinton years were full of evidence of a major terrorist attack
but officials in his administration debated, argued and misread the
Intel.
Support for action was also affected by the Lewinski affair with the
"Wag the Dog" movie in 1997 causing many in the public to believe an
artificial crisis was being created to distract attention from his
Oval Office activities.

This also had to be considered:

" In addition, the Clinton administration was facing the possibility
of major combat operations against Iraq. Since 1996, the UN
inspections regime had been increasingly obstructed by Saddam Hussein.
The United States was threatening to attack unless unfettered
inspections could resume. The Clinton administration eventually
launched a large-scale set of air strikes against Iraq, Operation
Desert Fox, in December 1998. These military commitments became the
context in which the Clinton administration had to consider opening
another front of military engagement against a new terrorist threat
based in Afghanistan."

http://govinfo.library.unt.edu/911/r...Report_Ch4.htm

On Sat, 6 Apr 2013 09:58:32 -0400, BAR wrote:

In article , says...

On Sat, 06 Apr 2013 01:41:33 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 5 Apr 2013 17:40:26 -0500, Boating All Out
wrote:

In article ,
says...

On Fri, 5 Apr 2013 15:03:27 -0500, Boating All Out
wrote:

Eisboch just explained it. If regular ATF dealer inspections took place
and laws were enforced, probably at least half of these "legal" gun
dealers would be shut down.
There are no real gun laws in the U.S. if existing laws aren't enforced.
Many are written to be unenforcible.
And all the Fed laws were basically written by the NRA.
Gun laws are a joke, the ATF powers to regulate "legal" gun dealers is a
joke, and the NRA and gun dealers laugh their way to the bank.
Hell, the NRA even opposes laws requiring you report your gun was
stolen.
Maybe the NRA wrote a law that the prevents public disclosure of why a
dealer has his license revoked. Wouldn't surprise me a bit.
Maybe the ATF found that if they did inspections this Sandy Hook dealer
would have been shut down years ago, so they are covering their own
asses as to their ineffectiveness.
Might take a FOIA action to get the reason.
Any time you hear somebody say "just enforce existing laws" regarding
guns, laugh. Because you were told a joke.
This covers some of it.
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/...f-gun-laws-nra


Nice rant and I agree the ATF is poorly staffed but they have plenty
of power over a dealer. They can pretty much yank a license on a whim
and it is up to the dealer to demonstrate why they should give it
back. All it really takes is any kind of small error, omission or
typo in the 4473s or the bound book.

Maybe you should talk to a dealer or two before you pop off.

Maybe you should quit bull****ting about what you know little, and
provide cites. You have not disproved a single point I made in what you
call a "rant."

http://www.atf.gov/publications/fact...factsheet-ffl-
compliance.html
"There were approximately 69,000 FFLs engaged in business in fiscal year
2012 (excluding persons holding collector licenses). During that time,
ATF conducted more than 13,100 firearms compliance. About 50 percent of
the licensees inspected were determined to be in full compliance with
the law and regulations and no violations were cited. Approximately 67
federal firearms licenses were revoked or were denied renewal due to
willful violations of the GCA. This figure is approximately 0.5 percent
of the number of licensees inspected."

13,100 inspections in 2012.
Only 50% of dealers in full compliance.
That's 6,550 inspections finding violations.
67 license revocations or renewal denials.

Those are the facts, gun nut. Some "whim."
Read the entire ATF FAQ to see how ATF plays nicey-nicey with dealers.
Here's how "whims" work in the appeals process.
Also easy to look up.

http://www.atf.gov/publications/fact...fl-revocation-
process.html
"Of those cases where FFLs filed a petition for de novo review with the
U.S. District Court from 2001 to 2012, 85 out of 89 final decisions in
District Court supported ATF?s decision to revoke. Twenty-four of the
District Court Decisions were appealed to the Circuit Court of Appeals;
all 24 of the Circuit Court decisions upheld ATF?s actions. Finally, two
of the Court of Appeals decisions were appealed to the United States
Supreme Court. The Supreme Court ?denied cert? on both of those cases."

Some "whim" gun nut. It really appears just don't want ANY regulation -
because you're a crazy libertarian with no sense of scale or proportion.
Everything revolves around you and your wants.
Bottom line, YOU "popped off" without thinking or researching.
But if anybody is going to pop off like that, it's a gun nut.
Shame on you.




Nice puff piece but ATF managed to transit that whole circuitous route
in 6 days and 2 of them were Saturday and Sunday.
It certainly appears that if they want you, they can get you.

The official "revocation" may take 60+ days if you can afford a lawyer
capable of arguing with the government but they can suspend your
license, pretty much on the spot.

I have already agreed that ATF is understaffed and they don't have the
manpower to do more than a cursory inspection of dealer records, but
just like IRS, OSHA or any other federal regulatory agency, if they
really take the time to tear your business apart, they will find
violations. It seems like they were sent in there to shut this guy
down and they did.

Well ****head, if the ATF finds violations, we're not talking about
cheating on your taxes. They need to shut down the company. We're
talking about 20 little kids getting murdered.

Your ****ing libertarian nonsense is insulting to anyone with even a
half way understanding of how this country works.

Why do federal prosecutors use firearms violations as bargining chips when pressuring the
alleged criminals to please guilty.

Shouldn't a law be enforced regardless of prosecutorial discrestion.

It's pretty common practice for prosecuters to use discrestion when
bringing something to trial. They're suppose to look at the whole
story, not just the letter of the law.

On Sat, 6 Apr 2013 10:40:43 -0400, "Eisboch" wrote:



"F.O.A.D." wrote in message
om...



How many people in the U.S.A. died on 9/11 as a result of Bush's
incompetency?

-------------------------------------------------------

The number that died as a result of Bill Clinton's incompetency, if
you insist on using that description.

The Clinton years were full of evidence of a major terrorist attack
but officials in his administration debated, argued and misread the
Intel.
Support for action was also affected by the Lewinski affair with the
"Wag the Dog" movie in 1997 causing many in the public to believe an
artificial crisis was being created to distract attention from his
Oval Office activities.

This also had to be considered:

" In addition, the Clinton administration was facing the possibility
of major combat operations against Iraq. Since 1996, the UN
inspections regime had been increasingly obstructed by Saddam Hussein.
The United States was threatening to attack unless unfettered
inspections could resume. The Clinton administration eventually
launched a large-scale set of air strikes against Iraq, Operation
Desert Fox, in December 1998. These military commitments became the
context in which the Clinton administration had to consider opening
another front of military engagement against a new terrorist threat
based in Afghanistan."

http://govinfo.library.unt.edu/911/r...Report_Ch4.htm



Huh? This has little to do with Bush's failures to protect US
citizens. He was told "Bin Laden is going to attack" or some such.
Condi and Bush ignored it.

On Sat, 06 Apr 2013 23:54:07 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 05 Apr 2013 22:58:31 -0700, Urin Asshole
wrote:

.

Well ****head, if the ATF finds violations, we're not talking about
cheating on your taxes. They need to shut down the company. We're
talking about 20 little kids getting murdered.


Nobody has ever claimed that any of those guns were bought illegally
or that this dealer violated any law selling them.
The violations were totally unrelated but the pressure to "find
something" on this guy seems pretty certain.

So, the "something" the found was trivial? How do you know this? Oh
yeah, you don't. Which 20 kids would you like see murdered next?

On Sat, 06 Apr 2013 23:54:07 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 05 Apr 2013 22:58:31 -0700, Urin Asshole
wrote:

.

Well ****head, if the ATF finds violations, we're not talking about
cheating on your taxes. They need to shut down the company. We're
talking about 20 little kids getting murdered.


Nobody has ever claimed that any of those guns were bought illegally
or that this dealer violated any law selling them.
The violations were totally unrelated but the pressure to "find
something" on this guy seems pretty certain.

"ATF officials said federal firearms license holders receive a copy of
the violations report before a revocation is initiated and are made
aware of the violations again during the hearing process. They have 60
days to appeal and in this case they chose not to do so, officials
said."

So, they had to find something and they had to tell him. Why don't you
give him a call and enlighten us about their trivial pursuit.

On Sun, 07 Apr 2013 01:33:37 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 06 Apr 2013 21:16:56 -0700, Urin Asshole
wrote:

On Sat, 06 Apr 2013 23:54:07 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 05 Apr 2013 22:58:31 -0700, Urin Asshole
wrote:

.

Well ****head, if the ATF finds violations, we're not talking about
cheating on your taxes. They need to shut down the company. We're
talking about 20 little kids getting murdered.


Nobody has ever claimed that any of those guns were bought illegally
or that this dealer violated any law selling them.
The violations were totally unrelated but the pressure to "find
something" on this guy seems pretty certain.

"ATF officials said federal firearms license holders receive a copy of
the violations report before a revocation is initiated and are made
aware of the violations again during the hearing process. They have 60
days to appeal and in this case they chose not to do so, officials
said."

So, they had to find something and they had to tell him. Why don't you
give him a call and enlighten us about their trivial pursuit.

If you are actually willing to look you would find the problem started
with one gun stolen by an employee and after the "raid" they found
irregularities in 20 transactions but when they tracked the guns down,
they found all of them.

And, they just as easily might not have. That's why we have rules and
they need to be enforced. Just like Madoff.. well, he might have been
able to replace all the money, but he didn't. He got caught.

Are you claiming that the gun shop owner should be let off, because
his sloppyness didn't cause people to die?

Seems like sloppy thinking to me, but I'm just a foul mouth little
punk.

wrote in message ...

On Sat, 06 Apr 2013 23:16:51 -0700, Urin Asshole
wrote:

but I'm just a foul mouth little
punk.

Yes you are

-----------------------------

Don't be so hard on him/her. Admitting you have a problem is the
first step to recovery.

On Sun, 07 Apr 2013 11:16:11 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 06 Apr 2013 23:16:51 -0700, Urin Asshole
wrote:

but I'm just a foul mouth little
punk.

Yes you are

Wow... that was some comeback. I'm proud of you. Please tell your wife
for me.