On 2/2/2012 1:04 PM, iBoaterer wrote:
In ,
says...

On 2/1/12 9:32 PM, Paul Hovnanian P.E. wrote:
Wayne.B wrote:

Is There a Natural Gas Powered Boat In Our Future?

Safety issues? Make sure you ventilate the bilge before starting.


If you have enclosed inboard engines, you should be doing that no matter
what combustible fuel you use.

I don't see it happening for pleasure boats. Who is going to pay for the
on-site storage and pumping facilities at most marinas or clubs? And the
fleets of delivery trucks? We don't have money for significant
infrastructure improvements, such as pipelines to service stations or
marinas, so the gas will have to be trucked.

Why would the cost of on-site storage and pumping be any more for LNG
than gasoline? As far as pipelines, again, same said of gasoline. Add to
the fact that LNG is a LOT cheaper, you'd actually have savings.

Not to mention a lot easier to clean up than an oil spill...

In article , dump-on-
says...

On 2/2/12 12:52 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 2 Feb 2012 09:07:38 -0500, wrote:

In ,
says...

On Wed, 01 Feb 2012 13:43:07 -0500, wrote:

On Wed, 01 Feb 2012 13:25:59 -0500, Wayne.B
wrote:

Is There a Natural Gas Powered Boat In Our Future?

If someone had asked me that question a year ago, I would have said:
"Nonsense, can't possibly happen." Now I'm a little less sure of
that.

Some interesting things have been going on. The supply of natural
gas in the US and Canada has dramatically increased as a result of
improved drilling and exploration technology. We now have more
natural gas than we can readily use or transport, and as a result, at
least in the short term, prices for natural gas have decreased. As
an example, the historic price multiple between a barrel of oil and a
thousand cubic feet of natural gas has been approximately 10 to 1.
It is now at 40 to 1, a huge reduction. This has resulted in a number
of efforts to leverage natural gas as a transportation fuel, i.e.,
trucks, trains, ships, taxi fleets, busses, etc.

Obviously a lot of new infrastructure needs to be built to provide for
compression, transportation and end user filling stations. A lot of
work has already been done in the area of diesel to natural gas
conversion engines. Once a few more of these pieces come together,
natural gas as a transportation fuel will become much more common than
it is now.

In the meanwhile there are some interesting investment opportunities.

http://seekingalpha.com/article/326572-2-energy-markets-and-their-implications-for-investors

In the interest of full disclosure, I own some of the stocks mentioned
in that article.

I suppose it might be possible for big boats but I am not sure how it
works on small outboard boats. (you need a huge tank). In that regard
propane is better, higher energy density.

I did do a little research into propane and decided the change to an
EFI outboard might be minimal tho. It might not be more than a
software tweak and a gas regulator where the VST is now.

I have some T Boone stock myself.

===

We had a family friend back in the 60s who worked in the oil fields of
western Kansas. Propane for him was free for the asking since a lot
of it just got flared off as a nuisance. He and is friends did a lot
of shade tree gasoline to propane conversions.

Look at the thousands of fork trucks that were easily converted to use
propane. Would be virtually the same for natural gas.

The big difference is propane is stored at around 100 PSI, CNG is more
like 2600-3000 PSI (both temperature dependent).
You also have a much higher energy density on propane. My guess is the
gas would be transported at the normal distribution pressures and
compressed to liquid at the fueling site.


I'll have to discuss this with the propane truck driver who fills our
buried tank. I don't know what state the gas is while it is in his truck
and if there are changes made to it while it is being pumped into our tank.

Liquid, and no.

In article , says...

On 2/2/2012 1:04 PM, iBoaterer wrote:
In ,
says...

On 2/1/12 9:32 PM, Paul Hovnanian P.E. wrote:
Wayne.B wrote:

Is There a Natural Gas Powered Boat In Our Future?

Safety issues? Make sure you ventilate the bilge before starting.


If you have enclosed inboard engines, you should be doing that no matter
what combustible fuel you use.

I don't see it happening for pleasure boats. Who is going to pay for the
on-site storage and pumping facilities at most marinas or clubs? And the
fleets of delivery trucks? We don't have money for significant
infrastructure improvements, such as pipelines to service stations or
marinas, so the gas will have to be trucked.

Why would the cost of on-site storage and pumping be any more for LNG
than gasoline? As far as pipelines, again, same said of gasoline. Add to
the fact that LNG is a LOT cheaper, you'd actually have savings.

Not to mention a lot easier to clean up than an oil spill...

You bet!

On 2/2/12 4:56 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 02 Feb 2012 12:59:23 -0500, X ` Man
wrote:

On 2/2/12 12:52 PM, wrote:


The big difference is propane is stored at around 100 PSI, CNG is more
like 2600-3000 PSI (both temperature dependent).
You also have a much higher energy density on propane. My guess is the
gas would be transported at the normal distribution pressures and
compressed to liquid at the fueling site.


I'll have to discuss this with the propane truck driver who fills our
buried tank. I don't know what state the gas is while it is in his truck
and if there are changes made to it while it is being pumped into our tank.

Propane is liquid in the tank, pretty much like the stuff you see in a
cigarette lighter.

I'll have to talk to the delivery guy. I've never actually watched him
top off the tank. I'm sure you're right, though.

On Thu, 02 Feb 2012 12:59:23 -0500, X ` Man
wrote:

Look at the thousands of fork trucks that were easily converted to use
propane. Would be virtually the same for natural gas.

The big difference is propane is stored at around 100 PSI, CNG is more
like 2600-3000 PSI (both temperature dependent).
You also have a much higher energy density on propane. My guess is the
gas would be transported at the normal distribution pressures and
compressed to liquid at the fueling site.


I'll have to discuss this with the propane truck driver who fills our
buried tank. I don't know what state the gas is while it is in his truck
and if there are changes made to it while it is being pumped into our tank.

===

Propane is always transported and stored in liquid form as far as I
know.

On Thu, 2 Feb 2012 13:11:47 -0500, iBoaterer wrote:

My natural gas line to my house surely
isn't 2600 PSI!

===

No it's not but the the gas line to your house is not delivering
liquified natural gas. LNG has to be stored and transported at very
high pressures and/or very low temperatures just like liquid nitrogen.

X ` Man wrote:
On 2/2/12 4:56 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 02 Feb 2012 12:59:23 -0500, X ` Man
wrote:

On 2/2/12 12:52 PM, wrote:


The big difference is propane is stored at around 100 PSI, CNG is more
like 2600-3000 PSI (both temperature dependent).
You also have a much higher energy density on propane. My guess is the
gas would be transported at the normal distribution pressures and
compressed to liquid at the fueling site.


I'll have to discuss this with the propane truck driver who fills our
buried tank. I don't know what state the gas is while it is in his
truck
and if there are changes made to it while it is being pumped into
our tank.

Propane is liquid in the tank, pretty much like the stuff you see in a
cigarette lighter.

I'll have to talk to the delivery guy. I've never actually watched him
top off the tank. I'm sure you're right, though.
LP = Liquid Petroleum. He's 100% correct.

On Thu, 02 Feb 2012 18:58:49 -0500, wrote:

On Thu, 02 Feb 2012 17:04:38 -0500, X ` Man
wrote:

On 2/2/12 4:56 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 02 Feb 2012 12:59:23 -0500, X ` Man
wrote:

On 2/2/12 12:52 PM, wrote:


The big difference is propane is stored at around 100 PSI, CNG is more
like 2600-3000 PSI (both temperature dependent).
You also have a much higher energy density on propane. My guess is the
gas would be transported at the normal distribution pressures and
compressed to liquid at the fueling site.


I'll have to discuss this with the propane truck driver who fills our
buried tank. I don't know what state the gas is while it is in his truck
and if there are changes made to it while it is being pumped into our tank.

Propane is liquid in the tank, pretty much like the stuff you see in a
cigarette lighter.

I'll have to talk to the delivery guy. I've never actually watched him
top off the tank. I'm sure you're right, though.

I have had several long talks to my gas supplier when I was
considering converting my outboard to propane. There is a liquid pick
up in most tanks but they are real guarded about telling you how to
use it and they absolutely will not talk to you about a transfer pump
in residential zoning.

There are a couple of internet discussions telling you how to fill 20#
tanks from your bulk tank. It is a lot easier with an above ground
tank but mine is buried.
Basically you cool the 20# tank and hook it to the liquid line of the
bulk tank. It is not nearly as fast as the pump.

===

Any pump certified as safe for gasoline should be OK. Leak prevention
at all of the fittings is the major issue other than grounding/spark
avoidance.

In article ,
says...

On Thu, 2 Feb 2012 13:11:47 -0500, iBoaterer wrote:

My natural gas line to my house surely
isn't 2600 PSI!

===

No it's not but the the gas line to your house is not delivering
liquified natural gas. LNG has to be stored and transported at very
high pressures and/or very low temperatures just like liquid nitrogen.

Yes, that is true. Therein lies the problem, confusing the line between
CNG and LNG.

On Feb 1, 12:43*pm, wrote:
On Wed, 01 Feb 2012 13:25:59 -0500, Wayne.B









wrote:
Is There a Natural Gas Powered Boat In Our Future?

If someone had asked me that question a year ago, I would have said:
"Nonsense, can't possibly happen." * Now I'm a little less sure of
that.

Some interesting things have been going on. * The supply of natural
gas in the US and Canada has dramatically increased as a result of
improved drilling and exploration technology. *We now have more
natural gas than we can readily use or transport, and as a result, at
least in the short term, *prices for natural gas have decreased. *As
an example, the historic price multiple between a barrel of oil and a
thousand cubic feet of natural gas has been approximately 10 to 1.
It is now at 40 to 1, a huge reduction. *This has resulted in a number
of efforts *to leverage natural gas as a transportation fuel, i.e.,
trucks, trains, ships, taxi fleets, busses, etc.

Obviously a lot of new infrastructure needs to be built to provide for
compression, transportation and end user filling stations. *A lot of
work has already been done in the area of diesel to natural gas
conversion engines. *Once a few more of these pieces come together,
natural gas as a transportation fuel will become much more common than
it is now.

In the meanwhile there are some interesting investment opportunities.

http://seekingalpha.com/article/326572-2-energy-markets-and-their-imp....

In the interest of full disclosure, I own some of the stocks mentioned
in that article.

I suppose it might be possible for big boats but I am not sure how it
works on small outboard boats. (you need a huge tank). In that regard
propane is better, higher energy density.

I did do a little research into propane and decided the change to an
EFI outboard might be minimal tho. It might not be more than a
software tweak and a gas regulator where the VST is now.

I have some T Boone stock myself. *

it is possible for big boats,.

When in Kauai' we'd be watching for the little cove at the Marriot
resort, and there was a large North Atlantic (Norwegian?) cruise ship
that would come in to port, and on the aft side's of the ship it was
proudly painted that the ships turbines ran on natural gas.