Electrical Advice...
 

On 05/10/2011 11:40 AM, X ` Man wrote:
On 10/5/11 1:34 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 05 Oct 2011 10:27:14 -0400, X `
wrote:

Yes, we'll have an auto transfer switch.

The new code says that if you have an automatic transfer switch, the
generator has to be capable of driving the entire connected load since
you may not be there to do manual load management.


Well, the 17KW genny, according to the factory, produces 70 amps at full
load, and the 20KW, if memory serves, produces 100 amps at full load.
The final bidder is coming by tomorrow for a look-see. I'll see what he
says. The one thing I do know is that I want to use copper wire, *not*
aluminum wire.

Good choice. Aluminum is crap for electricity.


--
Eat the rich, screw the companies and wonder why there are no jobs.
-- Obama and the lefty fleabagger attitude

Electrical Advice...
 

On 10/5/11 5:14 PM, Canuck57 wrote:
On 04/10/2011 11:05 PM, JustWait wrote:
On 10/4/2011 10:45 PM, Canuck57 wrote:
On 04/10/2011 1:59 PM, X ` Man wrote:
I'm thinking of upgrading to a larger standby generator, probably a
17KW
model.

The generator will be approximately 50 to 60 feet away from the house
circuit breakers. The wire will run under the main level floor and
above
the lower level ceiling.

I want as little current drop as possible. The generator provides
100 amps.

One of the contractors under consideration wants to use aluminum wire,
but I am more than willing to pay the premium between aluminum and
copper. I don't have an electrical "handibook" available.

What I am wondering:

1. Is 4/0 copper wire heavy enough?

2. Anyone know a supplier for about 70 feet of the stuff?

Our local electrical suppliers don't seem to want to provide a length
that short.

Thanks.

P.S. I'm really only interested in replies from those with an
educational or professional electrical background.

So is this for your grow op so the police don't see your utility bill?

In any case, for 1), current heats wire not voltage or wattage, so what
is the voltage as to calculate the current 17KW can generate? Amps
generate the heat. 220 or 115? With that size I will assume 220. 17K/220
= 77.3 amps. And I like being cautious, say AWG 3 for 220, 3/0 for 120.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_wire_gauge

Probably industrial supply shops, as consumer hardware stores will not
carry this. As it gets worse. You need special tools to bend it, you may
need conduit and I strongly suspect local ordinance would require an
inspection or at least a licensed electrician.


Tonight I had to install a new shallow well system for a friend in
Essex. Pretty straight forward, pump, expansion tank, and new conduit
tube from the knife switch above on the floor joist, down to the cutoff
switch... to code.

We noticed the breaker supplied an outside light and an outlet too, so
we had to put in an new breaker and 12 ga, Romex to supply the pump on a
separate line, also required by code.

Electrical and plumbing is not really all that hard, about 20 years ago
I with some help changed my home over from knob and tube to modern day
romex, gpf switches, etc..;), three years ago I redid the plumbing in
our place, including a new section of baseboard heating in one room. For
the water side of the system I used Pex pipe and Sharkbite fittings up
to the floors under the appliance or sink, and went with hard copper
from the floor up... I actually enjoy doing that stuff, But I guess my
bud could have waited for someone with "educational or professional
electrical background" and spent $700 for a $300 (parts) job we could
easily do ourselves. snerk.

I agree normal wiring isn't that hard. However 4GA isn't normal wiring
neither is 70+ Amps and futzing with the mains. Have that short out and
your face could be copper or aluminum coated. And if it burns his home,
and no inspection, it isn't covered.

It isn't a wall socket or light switch job.

It also needs to be inspected even if you do it yourself.

For example if it supplies the house, he needs a switch panel between
the fuse box and the incoming mains. Which also means coordinating
having the power off to insert an approved switch.


There are a half dozen licensed electrical contractors in my immediate
area who do this sort of work. The electric and plumbing have to be
permitted and inspected. I'm sure some people might not bother with the
permits and do the work themselves, but...if your house blows up or
burns to the ground, your homeowners' insurer may inquire about the
any electrical or gas line work done in the house, and if you have to
say you did it yourself without the proper permits and inspections, I
suspect you'll be S.O.L., insurance-wise.



--
I'll believe corporations are people when Texas executes one.

Electrical Advice...
 

On 10/5/11 5:23 PM, Canuck57 wrote:
On 05/10/2011 11:40 AM, X ` Man wrote:
On 10/5/11 1:34 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 05 Oct 2011 10:27:14 -0400, X `
wrote:

Yes, we'll have an auto transfer switch.

The new code says that if you have an automatic transfer switch, the
generator has to be capable of driving the entire connected load since
you may not be there to do manual load management.


Well, the 17KW genny, according to the factory, produces 70 amps at full
load, and the 20KW, if memory serves, produces 100 amps at full load.
The final bidder is coming by tomorrow for a look-see. I'll see what he
says. The one thing I do know is that I want to use copper wire, *not*
aluminum wire.

Good choice. Aluminum is crap for electricity.



It's a $6,000 to $7,500 job...the cost difference between copper and
aluminum wire isn't going to be of any real significance over the cost
of the job.

--
I'll believe corporations are people when Texas executes one.

Electrical Advice...
 

In article ,
says...

In article ,
says...

"X ` Man" wrote in message
m...

So, if you were specifying the wiring from the genny to the breaker box,
assuming an output at the genny of 70 to 100 amps, what would you choose?

Thanks.


My advise is to go by what your hired, licensed electrician specifies. He's
most knowledgable of
your local codes. I am not an electrician but I stayed at a Holiday Inn
Express last night.

Eisboch

One factor that, I don't think has been discussed is voltage drop,
further, how much voltage drop can whatever you'll be running take
without problems.

Most of your home appliances are not sensitive enough to care about an 8
to 10 percent voltage drop.

Electrical Advice...
 

On 05/10/2011 3:05 PM, X ` Man wrote:
On 10/5/11 5:01 PM, Canuck57 wrote:
On 05/10/2011 5:57 AM, Drifter wrote:
On 10/4/2011 10:45 PM, Canuck57 wrote:
On 04/10/2011 2:52 PM, Drifter wrote:
On 10/4/2011 3:59 PM, X ` Man wrote:
I'm thinking of upgrading to a larger standby generator, probably a
17KW
model.

The generator will be approximately 50 to 60 feet away from the house
circuit breakers. The wire will run under the main level floor and
above
the lower level ceiling.

I want as little current drop as possible. The generator provides
100 amps.

One of the contractors under consideration wants to use aluminum
wire,
but I am more than willing to pay the premium between aluminum and
copper. I don't have an electrical "handibook" available.

What I am wondering:

1. Is 4/0 copper wire heavy enough?

2. Anyone know a supplier for about 70 feet of the stuff?

Our local electrical suppliers don't seem to want to provide a length
that short.

Thanks.

P.S. I'm really only interested in replies from those with an
educational or professional electrical background.




You mean voltage drop, don't you? Here's a calculator
http://www.csgnetwork.com/voltagedropcalc.html

1. Probably.
2. Yup
3. Shop somewhere else or buy their minimum.

P.S. You need to satisfy local building codes irregardless of N E C.
You
might even need permits and inspections.

You're a big boy. You should know how to interview and hire
contractors.


And a fuse box.


Do you think Krause meant to say 4GA instead of 4/0? I assumed he did.
There is a substantial size difference.

Yep, he might have and a big difference too. In any case, it isn't a end
user task. He be best to get a qualified electrician that knows the
local codes.


D'oh. I have no intention of installing a 17KW or 20KW generator at the
house. I've just been interviewing contractors and asking questions. The
install will be done by licensed electricians and a licensed plumber,
the latter one of the plumbers who works for our LP gas supplier. This
will be a replacement for a small capacity genny we've been using to
power a couple of circuits. The new one will run about half the house,
including one of our heat pumps, the well pump, a pair of refrigerators
and various lights and outlets.

Good, sounded like you were going to DIY it. LP? Does it run on LP or
gasoline? Just curious.

BTW, you don't have to have a generator for your whole house. If you
have a sub-panel, just switch the essentials to the sub-panel and just
switch it. Say furnace, freezer and some lights is all you really need.


--
Eat the rich, screw the companies and wonder why there are no jobs.
-- Obama and the lefty fleabagger attitude

Electrical Advice...
 

On 10/5/11 6:45 PM, Canuck57 wrote:
On 05/10/2011 3:05 PM, X ` Man wrote:
On 10/5/11 5:01 PM, Canuck57 wrote:
On 05/10/2011 5:57 AM, Drifter wrote:
On 10/4/2011 10:45 PM, Canuck57 wrote:
On 04/10/2011 2:52 PM, Drifter wrote:
On 10/4/2011 3:59 PM, X ` Man wrote:
I'm thinking of upgrading to a larger standby generator, probably a
17KW
model.

The generator will be approximately 50 to 60 feet away from the
house
circuit breakers. The wire will run under the main level floor and
above
the lower level ceiling.

I want as little current drop as possible. The generator provides
100 amps.

One of the contractors under consideration wants to use aluminum
wire,
but I am more than willing to pay the premium between aluminum and
copper. I don't have an electrical "handibook" available.

What I am wondering:

1. Is 4/0 copper wire heavy enough?

2. Anyone know a supplier for about 70 feet of the stuff?

Our local electrical suppliers don't seem to want to provide a
length
that short.

Thanks.

P.S. I'm really only interested in replies from those with an
educational or professional electrical background.




You mean voltage drop, don't you? Here's a calculator
http://www.csgnetwork.com/voltagedropcalc.html

1. Probably.
2. Yup
3. Shop somewhere else or buy their minimum.

P.S. You need to satisfy local building codes irregardless of N E C.
You
might even need permits and inspections.

You're a big boy. You should know how to interview and hire
contractors.


And a fuse box.


Do you think Krause meant to say 4GA instead of 4/0? I assumed he did.
There is a substantial size difference.

Yep, he might have and a big difference too. In any case, it isn't a end
user task. He be best to get a qualified electrician that knows the
local codes.


D'oh. I have no intention of installing a 17KW or 20KW generator at the
house. I've just been interviewing contractors and asking questions. The
install will be done by licensed electricians and a licensed plumber,
the latter one of the plumbers who works for our LP gas supplier. This
will be a replacement for a small capacity genny we've been using to
power a couple of circuits. The new one will run about half the house,
including one of our heat pumps, the well pump, a pair of refrigerators
and various lights and outlets.

Good, sounded like you were going to DIY it. LP? Does it run on LP or
gasoline? Just curious.

BTW, you don't have to have a generator for your whole house. If you
have a sub-panel, just switch the essentials to the sub-panel and just
switch it. Say furnace, freezer and some lights is all you really need.



1. No, I never had or implied I was going to do it myself.
2. We have a 500 gallon LP tank buried in the yard.
3. We're only going to be running *some* of the house off the genny,
when necessary. One of the heat pumps, the well pump, two refrigerators,
some light and plug circuits, et cetera.

--
I'll believe corporations are people when Texas executes one.

Electrical Advice...
 

X ` Man wrote:
On 10/5/11 5:23 PM, Canuck57 wrote:
On 05/10/2011 11:40 AM, X ` Man wrote:
On 10/5/11 1:34 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 05 Oct 2011 10:27:14 -0400, X `
wrote:

Yes, we'll have an auto transfer switch.

The new code says that if you have an automatic transfer switch, the
generator has to be capable of driving the entire connected load since
you may not be there to do manual load management.


Well, the 17KW genny, according to the factory, produces 70 amps at
full
load, and the 20KW, if memory serves, produces 100 amps at full load.
The final bidder is coming by tomorrow for a look-see. I'll see what he
says. The one thing I do know is that I want to use copper wire, *not*
aluminum wire.

Good choice. Aluminum is crap for electricity.



It's a $6,000 to $7,500 job...the cost difference between copper and
aluminum wire isn't going to be of any real significance over the cost
of the job.

You're paying too much. Unions will do that to you. Find a local,
licensed guy and save a few grand, silly!

-HB

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4r7wHMg5Yjg

Electrical Advice...
 

"Honey Badger" wrote in message
...

X ` Man wrote:

The one thing I do know is that I want to use copper wire, *not*
aluminum wire.

Good choice. Aluminum is crap for electricity.

---------------------------------------------------

Not really. Aluminum wire is used in just about all power transmission
lines including that which connects to your house panel.

Aluminum wiring within the house was a problem back in the 60's and early
70's, but the aluminum wire wasn't the problem.
The problem was with the terminations and connections. Aluminum will
oxidize creating aluminum oxide which is an insulator
rather than a conductor. The type of aluminum alloy for wiring was changed
and terminations developed that prevent oxygen
from getting to the aluminum. Nothing wrong with it now if the correct
terminations are used. For power transfer ... like what
Harry is contemplating for his house genset, there's really no reason to
spend the extra $$ for copper power feeds from the
genset to the house panel. Aluminum is just fine, in fact is preferred over
copper for that use.

When we installed our pool and accessories a few years back, all the power
runs ... including a 100 amp, 240 volt service to
the pool filter and heater were all done in buried aluminum power. We also
put a 50 amp, 240v service outside for use with
an RV we had at the time. The contractor also pre-wired a feed for a house
genset that he was trying to sell us at the time.
We never put it in and quite frankly, I wouldn't bother. The amount of
time that we have lost power in the last 10 years just
doesn't justify a whole house generator IMO. If the power is out for more
than a few hours, I just fire up the little Honda
EU-2000, plug in the refrigerator and a couple of lights and we survive
fine. The longest recent period without power was
during Hurricane or Tropical Storm Irene and that was for about 36 hours.
To tell the truth, it was sorta enjoyable without
TV, radio, computer Internet access, etc. Nice change of pace.

Eisboch

Electrical Advice...
 

On 10/5/11 8:39 PM, Eisboch wrote:


"Honey Badger" wrote in message
...

X ` Man wrote:

The one thing I do know is that I want to use copper wire, *not*
aluminum wire.

Good choice. Aluminum is crap for electricity.

---------------------------------------------------

Not really. Aluminum wire is used in just about all power transmission
lines including that which connects to your house panel.

Aluminum wiring within the house was a problem back in the 60's and
early 70's, but the aluminum wire wasn't the problem.
The problem was with the terminations and connections. Aluminum will
oxidize creating aluminum oxide which is an insulator
rather than a conductor. The type of aluminum alloy for wiring was
changed and terminations developed that prevent oxygen
from getting to the aluminum. Nothing wrong with it now if the correct
terminations are used. For power transfer ... like what
Harry is contemplating for his house genset, there's really no reason to
spend the extra $$ for copper power feeds from the
genset to the house panel. Aluminum is just fine, in fact is preferred
over copper for that use.

When we installed our pool and accessories a few years back, all the
power runs ... including a 100 amp, 240 volt service to
the pool filter and heater were all done in buried aluminum power. We
also put a 50 amp, 240v service outside for use with
an RV we had at the time. The contractor also pre-wired a feed for a
house genset that he was trying to sell us at the time.
We never put it in and quite frankly, I wouldn't bother. The amount of
time that we have lost power in the last 10 years just
doesn't justify a whole house generator IMO. If the power is out for
more than a few hours, I just fire up the little Honda
EU-2000, plug in the refrigerator and a couple of lights and we survive
fine. The longest recent period without power was
during Hurricane or Tropical Storm Irene and that was for about 36
hours. To tell the truth, it was sorta enjoyable without
TV, radio, computer Internet access, etc. Nice change of pace.

Eisboch



Our situation is different here in southern Maryland. Without
electricity, we have no water...we're on a deep well. No water to drink,
no water to wash, no water to flush toilets. Without electricity, the
food in the refigerators spoils. Without power during a long cold spell,
the water lines near the exterior of the house can freeze.

We have fairly frequent power outages out here in ruralville.

--
I'll believe corporations are people when Texas executes one.

Electrical Advice...
 

"X ` Man" wrote in message
m...



Our situation is different here in southern Maryland. Without
electricity, we have no water...we're on a deep well. No water to drink,
no water to wash, no water to flush toilets. Without electricity, the
food in the refigerators spoils. Without power during a long cold spell,
the water lines near the exterior of the house can freeze.

We have fairly frequent power outages out here in ruralville.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

I agree. If we didn't have town water I probably would have a generator
installed ... or get one for the tractor
power take-off. We had a similar situation to yours in Florida. No power
= no water. You can survive for quite
a while with no power as long as you have water.

Our house here in MA has gas (propane) for the stoves and also for the
fireplaces. We can generate some heat
using the fireplaces (although very inefficient) and can cook etc. on the
stoves. So, lack of power isn't a major
problem although it gets old fast.

Eisboch