Electrical Advice...
 

I'm thinking of upgrading to a larger standby generator, probably a 17KW
model.

The generator will be approximately 50 to 60 feet away from the house
circuit breakers. The wire will run under the main level floor and above
the lower level ceiling.

I want as little current drop as possible. The generator provides
100 amps.

One of the contractors under consideration wants to use aluminum wire,
but I am more than willing to pay the premium between aluminum and
copper. I don't have an electrical "handibook" available.

What I am wondering:

1. Is 4/0 copper wire heavy enough?

2. Anyone know a supplier for about 70 feet of the stuff?

Our local electrical suppliers don't seem to want to provide a length
that short.

Thanks.

P.S. I'm really only interested in replies from those with an
educational or professional electrical background.



--
I'll believe corporations are people when Texas executes one.

Electrical Advice...
 

On 10/4/2011 3:59 PM, X ` Man wrote:
I'm thinking of upgrading to a larger standby generator, probably a 17KW
model.

The generator will be approximately 50 to 60 feet away from the house
circuit breakers. The wire will run under the main level floor and above
the lower level ceiling.

I want as little current drop as possible. The generator provides
100 amps.

One of the contractors under consideration wants to use aluminum wire,
but I am more than willing to pay the premium between aluminum and
copper. I don't have an electrical "handibook" available.

What I am wondering:

1. Is 4/0 copper wire heavy enough?

2. Anyone know a supplier for about 70 feet of the stuff?

Our local electrical suppliers don't seem to want to provide a length
that short.

Thanks.

P.S. I'm really only interested in replies from those with an
educational or professional electrical background.




You mean voltage drop, don't you? Here's a calculator
http://www.csgnetwork.com/voltagedropcalc.html

1. Probably.
2. Yup
3. Shop somewhere else or buy their minimum.

P.S. You need to satisfy local building codes irregardless of N E C. You
might even need permits and inspections.

You're a big boy. You should know how to interview and hire contractors.

Electrical Advice...
 

On 10/4/11 5:45 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 04 Oct 2011 15:59:50 -0400, X `
wrote:

I'm thinking of upgrading to a larger standby generator, probably a 17KW
model.

The generator will be approximately 50 to 60 feet away from the house
circuit breakers. The wire will run under the main level floor and above
the lower level ceiling.

I want as little current drop as possible. The generator provides
100 amps.

One of the contractors under consideration wants to use aluminum wire,
but I am more than willing to pay the premium between aluminum and
copper. I don't have an electrical "handibook" available.

What I am wondering:

1. Is 4/0 copper wire heavy enough?

WAY more than enough. A contractor would probably use #4, if left to
their own devices. Your figures are off, though. You'd be lucky to get
70A out of a 17KW generator. I wouldn't use aluminum wire, if I had to
forget the whole project.

100A would call for #1. A 70 foot run would give you about a .4%
voltage drop, which is negligible. 4/0 would give about a .2% voltage
drop, which would be an expensive .2% gain.

2. Anyone know a supplier for about 70 feet of the stuff?

If individual wires, and you buy something on the order of 4/0(or #1),
then you will need at least 70X2 feet for the two hot wires, plus
whatever you chose as a neutral wire. So, you might go with about 210
feet of whatever.

Our local electrical suppliers don't seem to want to provide a length
that short.


Don't you have a Hechinger, Lowes, or Home Depot?

Thanks.

P.S. I'm really only interested in replies from those with an
educational or professional electrical background.


Thanks...you're right...70 amps. I'm contemplating either a 17KW or 20
KW standby, enough to run what I want to run in case of a power outage,
but not the whole house.

--
I'll believe corporations are people when Texas executes one.

Electrical Advice...
 

On 10/4/11 6:11 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 04 Oct 2011 15:59:50 -0400, X `
wrote:

I'm thinking of upgrading to a larger standby generator, probably a 17KW
model.

The generator will be approximately 50 to 60 feet away from the house
circuit breakers. The wire will run under the main level floor and above
the lower level ceiling.

I want as little current drop as possible. The generator provides
100 amps.

One of the contractors under consideration wants to use aluminum wire,
but I am more than willing to pay the premium between aluminum and
copper. I don't have an electrical "handibook" available.

What I am wondering:

1. Is 4/0 copper wire heavy enough?

2. Anyone know a supplier for about 70 feet of the stuff?

Our local electrical suppliers don't seem to want to provide a length
that short.

Thanks.

P.S. I'm really only interested in replies from those with an
educational or professional electrical background.


1/0 should be plenty, That will drop about 1.5v or about a 0.6%. I
would even consider going with #1, dropping 1.8v, still under 1%.

You also have to remember you are not really going to be using a
constant 100a (or you really need a bigger generator) so those V/D
numbers are conservative.

What you are looking for is THWN, usually dual listed as THHN/THWN.
Any electrical supply house will have it and you can usually get it at
Home Depot, depending on how many pros shop at yours.
That will go easily in 2" Rigid Nonmetalic Conduit (the gray stuff).
You can get it in smaller pipe but the pull is harder. The ungrounded
conductors (2) and the neutral (1) will be full sized but the green
wire ground can be smaller. It will be sized based on which wire you
selected for the ungrounded conductors.
If you went with the minimum size (#3 if you can find it or #2) the
ground can be #8.
As you adjust for voltage drop, the ground has to get bigger too.
Anything up to 2/0 copper will be a #6 and the 4/0 you are talking
about needs a #4

Whether you bond the neutral in the generator will depend on what kind
of transfer switch you buy. If you switch the neutral, you bond the
neutral in the generator (AKA a separately derived system).
If the neutral is not switched in the transfer equipment, you do not
bond it at the generator .... but that union master electrician you
hire should know this ;-)


Thanks. Of the three contractors I've "interviewed," one is a union
shop. Very few union shops do homeowner electrical or plumbing work in
"these here parts." All the shops claim to use licensed master
electricians.

Fortunately, we have a 500 gallon LP gas tank buried in the back yard.
The gas supplier's master plumber will do the connect to the genny for
$200.

--
I'll believe corporations are people when Texas executes one.

Electrical Advice...
 

In article ,
says...

On Tue, 04 Oct 2011 15:59:50 -0400, X ` Man
wrote:

I'm thinking of upgrading to a larger standby generator, probably a 17KW
model.

The generator will be approximately 50 to 60 feet away from the house
circuit breakers. The wire will run under the main level floor and above
the lower level ceiling.

I want as little current drop as possible. The generator provides
100 amps.

One of the contractors under consideration wants to use aluminum wire,
but I am more than willing to pay the premium between aluminum and
copper. I don't have an electrical "handibook" available.

What I am wondering:

1. Is 4/0 copper wire heavy enough?

WAY more than enough. A contractor would probably use #4, if left to
their own devices. Your figures are off, though. You'd be lucky to get
70A out of a 17KW generator. I wouldn't use aluminum wire, if I had to
forget the whole project.

100A would call for #1. A 70 foot run would give you about a .4%
voltage drop, which is negligible. 4/0 would give about a .2% voltage
drop, which would be an expensive .2% gain.

2. Anyone know a supplier for about 70 feet of the stuff?

If individual wires, and you buy something on the order of 4/0(or #1),
then you will need at least 70X2 feet for the two hot wires, plus
whatever you chose as a neutral wire. So, you might go with about 210
feet of whatever.

Our local electrical suppliers don't seem to want to provide a length
that short.


Don't you have a Hechinger, Lowes, or Home Depot?

Hechinger died years ago.

Electrical Advice...
 

On 10/4/11 7:23 PM, BAR wrote:
In ,
says...

On Tue, 04 Oct 2011 15:59:50 -0400, X `
wrote:

I'm thinking of upgrading to a larger standby generator, probably a 17KW
model.

The generator will be approximately 50 to 60 feet away from the house
circuit breakers. The wire will run under the main level floor and above
the lower level ceiling.

I want as little current drop as possible. The generator provides
100 amps.

One of the contractors under consideration wants to use aluminum wire,
but I am more than willing to pay the premium between aluminum and
copper. I don't have an electrical "handibook" available.

What I am wondering:

1. Is 4/0 copper wire heavy enough?

WAY more than enough. A contractor would probably use #4, if left to
their own devices. Your figures are off, though. You'd be lucky to get
70A out of a 17KW generator. I wouldn't use aluminum wire, if I had to
forget the whole project.

100A would call for #1. A 70 foot run would give you about a .4%
voltage drop, which is negligible. 4/0 would give about a .2% voltage
drop, which would be an expensive .2% gain.

2. Anyone know a supplier for about 70 feet of the stuff?

If individual wires, and you buy something on the order of 4/0(or #1),
then you will need at least 70X2 feet for the two hot wires, plus
whatever you chose as a neutral wire. So, you might go with about 210
feet of whatever.

Our local electrical suppliers don't seem to want to provide a length
that short.


Don't you have a Hechinger, Lowes, or Home Depot?

Hechinger died years ago.



The store did, but the family is still around.

--
I'll believe corporations are people when Texas executes one.

Electrical Advice...
 

On 04/10/2011 1:59 PM, X ` Man wrote:
I'm thinking of upgrading to a larger standby generator, probably a 17KW
model.

The generator will be approximately 50 to 60 feet away from the house
circuit breakers. The wire will run under the main level floor and above
the lower level ceiling.

I want as little current drop as possible. The generator provides
100 amps.

One of the contractors under consideration wants to use aluminum wire,
but I am more than willing to pay the premium between aluminum and
copper. I don't have an electrical "handibook" available.

What I am wondering:

1. Is 4/0 copper wire heavy enough?

2. Anyone know a supplier for about 70 feet of the stuff?

Our local electrical suppliers don't seem to want to provide a length
that short.

Thanks.

P.S. I'm really only interested in replies from those with an
educational or professional electrical background.

So is this for your grow op so the police don't see your utility bill?

In any case, for 1), current heats wire not voltage or wattage, so what
is the voltage as to calculate the current 17KW can generate? Amps
generate the heat. 220 or 115? With that size I will assume 220.
17K/220 = 77.3 amps. And I like being cautious, say AWG 3 for 220, 3/0
for 120.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_wire_gauge

Probably industrial supply shops, as consumer hardware stores will not
carry this. As it gets worse. You need special tools to bend it, you
may need conduit and I strongly suspect local ordinance would require an
inspection or at least a licensed electrician.

--
Eat the rich, screw the companies and wonder why there are no jobs.
-- Obama and the lefty fleabagger attitude

Electrical Advice...
 

On 04/10/2011 2:52 PM, Drifter wrote:
On 10/4/2011 3:59 PM, X ` Man wrote:
I'm thinking of upgrading to a larger standby generator, probably a 17KW
model.

The generator will be approximately 50 to 60 feet away from the house
circuit breakers. The wire will run under the main level floor and above
the lower level ceiling.

I want as little current drop as possible. The generator provides
100 amps.

One of the contractors under consideration wants to use aluminum wire,
but I am more than willing to pay the premium between aluminum and
copper. I don't have an electrical "handibook" available.

What I am wondering:

1. Is 4/0 copper wire heavy enough?

2. Anyone know a supplier for about 70 feet of the stuff?

Our local electrical suppliers don't seem to want to provide a length
that short.

Thanks.

P.S. I'm really only interested in replies from those with an
educational or professional electrical background.




You mean voltage drop, don't you? Here's a calculator
http://www.csgnetwork.com/voltagedropcalc.html

1. Probably.
2. Yup
3. Shop somewhere else or buy their minimum.

P.S. You need to satisfy local building codes irregardless of N E C. You
might even need permits and inspections.

You're a big boy. You should know how to interview and hire contractors.


And a fuse box.


--
Eat the rich, screw the companies and wonder why there are no jobs.
-- Obama and the lefty fleabagger attitude

Electrical Advice...
 

On 04/10/2011 3:55 PM, X ` Man wrote:
On 10/4/11 5:45 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 04 Oct 2011 15:59:50 -0400, X `
wrote:

I'm thinking of upgrading to a larger standby generator, probably a 17KW
model.

The generator will be approximately 50 to 60 feet away from the house
circuit breakers. The wire will run under the main level floor and above
the lower level ceiling.

I want as little current drop as possible. The generator provides
100 amps.

One of the contractors under consideration wants to use aluminum wire,
but I am more than willing to pay the premium between aluminum and
copper. I don't have an electrical "handibook" available.

What I am wondering:

1. Is 4/0 copper wire heavy enough?

WAY more than enough. A contractor would probably use #4, if left to
their own devices. Your figures are off, though. You'd be lucky to get
70A out of a 17KW generator. I wouldn't use aluminum wire, if I had to
forget the whole project.

100A would call for #1. A 70 foot run would give you about a .4%
voltage drop, which is negligible. 4/0 would give about a .2% voltage
drop, which would be an expensive .2% gain.

2. Anyone know a supplier for about 70 feet of the stuff?

If individual wires, and you buy something on the order of 4/0(or #1),
then you will need at least 70X2 feet for the two hot wires, plus
whatever you chose as a neutral wire. So, you might go with about 210
feet of whatever.

Our local electrical suppliers don't seem to want to provide a length
that short.


Don't you have a Hechinger, Lowes, or Home Depot?

Thanks.

P.S. I'm really only interested in replies from those with an
educational or professional electrical background.


Thanks...you're right...70 amps. I'm contemplating either a 17KW or 20
KW standby, enough to run what I want to run in case of a power outage,
but not the whole house.

Then downsize. Unless your home is electric heat, 17KWH generator is
overkill. Unless of course your like Al Gore.


--
Eat the rich, screw the companies and wonder why there are no jobs.
-- Obama and the lefty fleabagger attitude

Electrical Advice...
 

On 10/4/2011 10:45 PM, Canuck57 wrote:
On 04/10/2011 1:59 PM, X ` Man wrote:
I'm thinking of upgrading to a larger standby generator, probably a 17KW
model.

The generator will be approximately 50 to 60 feet away from the house
circuit breakers. The wire will run under the main level floor and above
the lower level ceiling.

I want as little current drop as possible. The generator provides
100 amps.

One of the contractors under consideration wants to use aluminum wire,
but I am more than willing to pay the premium between aluminum and
copper. I don't have an electrical "handibook" available.

What I am wondering:

1. Is 4/0 copper wire heavy enough?

2. Anyone know a supplier for about 70 feet of the stuff?

Our local electrical suppliers don't seem to want to provide a length
that short.

Thanks.

P.S. I'm really only interested in replies from those with an
educational or professional electrical background.

So is this for your grow op so the police don't see your utility bill?

In any case, for 1), current heats wire not voltage or wattage, so what
is the voltage as to calculate the current 17KW can generate? Amps
generate the heat. 220 or 115? With that size I will assume 220. 17K/220
= 77.3 amps. And I like being cautious, say AWG 3 for 220, 3/0 for 120.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_wire_gauge

Probably industrial supply shops, as consumer hardware stores will not
carry this. As it gets worse. You need special tools to bend it, you may
need conduit and I strongly suspect local ordinance would require an
inspection or at least a licensed electrician.


Tonight I had to install a new shallow well system for a friend in
Essex. Pretty straight forward, pump, expansion tank, and new conduit
tube from the knife switch above on the floor joist, down to the cutoff
switch... to code.

We noticed the breaker supplied an outside light and an outlet too, so
we had to put in an new breaker and 12 ga, Romex to supply the pump on a
separate line, also required by code.

Electrical and plumbing is not really all that hard, about 20 years ago
I with some help changed my home over from knob and tube to modern day
romex, gpf switches, etc..;), three years ago I redid the plumbing in
our place, including a new section of baseboard heating in one room. For
the water side of the system I used Pex pipe and Sharkbite fittings up
to the floors under the appliance or sink, and went with hard copper
from the floor up... I actually enjoy doing that stuff, But I guess my
bud could have waited for someone with "educational or professional
electrical background" and spent $700 for a $300 (parts) job we could
easily do ourselves. snerk.

Electrical Advice...
 

On 10/5/11 1:05 AM, JustWait wrote:
On 10/4/2011 10:45 PM, Canuck57 wrote:
On 04/10/2011 1:59 PM, X ` Man wrote:
I'm thinking of upgrading to a larger standby generator, probably a 17KW
model.

The generator will be approximately 50 to 60 feet away from the house
circuit breakers. The wire will run under the main level floor and above
the lower level ceiling.

I want as little current drop as possible. The generator provides
100 amps.

One of the contractors under consideration wants to use aluminum wire,
but I am more than willing to pay the premium between aluminum and
copper. I don't have an electrical "handibook" available.

What I am wondering:

1. Is 4/0 copper wire heavy enough?

2. Anyone know a supplier for about 70 feet of the stuff?

Our local electrical suppliers don't seem to want to provide a length
that short.

Thanks.

P.S. I'm really only interested in replies from those with an
educational or professional electrical background.

So is this for your grow op so the police don't see your utility bill?

In any case, for 1), current heats wire not voltage or wattage, so what
is the voltage as to calculate the current 17KW can generate? Amps
generate the heat. 220 or 115? With that size I will assume 220. 17K/220
= 77.3 amps. And I like being cautious, say AWG 3 for 220, 3/0 for 120.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_wire_gauge

Probably industrial supply shops, as consumer hardware stores will not
carry this. As it gets worse. You need special tools to bend it, you may
need conduit and I strongly suspect local ordinance would require an
inspection or at least a licensed electrician.


Tonight I had to install a new shallow well system for a friend in
Essex. Pretty straight forward, pump, expansion tank, and new conduit
tube from the knife switch above on the floor joist, down to the cutoff
switch... to code.

We noticed the breaker supplied an outside light and an outlet too, so
we had to put in an new breaker and 12 ga, Romex to supply the pump on a
separate line, also required by code.

Electrical and plumbing is not really all that hard, about 20 years ago
I with some help changed my home over from knob and tube to modern day
romex, gpf switches, etc..;), three years ago I redid the plumbing in
our place, including a new section of baseboard heating in one room. For
the water side of the system I used Pex pipe and Sharkbite fittings up
to the floors under the appliance or sink, and went with hard copper
from the floor up... I actually enjoy doing that stuff, But I guess my
bud could have waited for someone with "educational or professional
electrical background" and spent $700 for a $300 (parts) job we could
easily do ourselves. snerk.


I'll do light electrical work, such as replacing a wall switch or
ceiling fixture, but that's about it. The labor for the new generator
involves electricians and a plumber, and the charges for both services
are estimated at around $2500. The job has to be permitted, at least as
far as the plumbing goes. The genny is an LP gas appliance. I don't mess
with installing gas appliances or heavier duty electric, especially when
the wiring or pipes are to be concealed.



--
I'll believe corporations are people when Texas executes one.

Electrical Advice...
 

On 10/4/2011 10:45 PM, Canuck57 wrote:
On 04/10/2011 2:52 PM, Drifter wrote:
On 10/4/2011 3:59 PM, X ` Man wrote:
I'm thinking of upgrading to a larger standby generator, probably a 17KW
model.

The generator will be approximately 50 to 60 feet away from the house
circuit breakers. The wire will run under the main level floor and above
the lower level ceiling.

I want as little current drop as possible. The generator provides
100 amps.

One of the contractors under consideration wants to use aluminum wire,
but I am more than willing to pay the premium between aluminum and
copper. I don't have an electrical "handibook" available.

What I am wondering:

1. Is 4/0 copper wire heavy enough?

2. Anyone know a supplier for about 70 feet of the stuff?

Our local electrical suppliers don't seem to want to provide a length
that short.

Thanks.

P.S. I'm really only interested in replies from those with an
educational or professional electrical background.




You mean voltage drop, don't you? Here's a calculator
http://www.csgnetwork.com/voltagedropcalc.html

1. Probably.
2. Yup
3. Shop somewhere else or buy their minimum.

P.S. You need to satisfy local building codes irregardless of N E C. You
might even need permits and inspections.

You're a big boy. You should know how to interview and hire contractors.


And a fuse box.


Do you think Krause meant to say 4GA instead of 4/0? I assumed he did.
There is a substantial size difference.

Electrical Advice...
 

In article ,
says...

I'm thinking of upgrading to a larger standby generator, probably a 17KW
model.

The generator will be approximately 50 to 60 feet away from the house
circuit breakers. The wire will run under the main level floor and above
the lower level ceiling.

I want as little current drop as possible. The generator provides
100 amps.

One of the contractors under consideration wants to use aluminum wire,
but I am more than willing to pay the premium between aluminum and
copper. I don't have an electrical "handibook" available.

What I am wondering:

1. Is 4/0 copper wire heavy enough?

You need an "electrical handbook" to figure it out???? If so, you are
already in over your head. There are very simple formulas for finding
out just what size wire you need

2. Anyone know a supplier for about 70 feet of the stuff?

Home Depot, Lowes, or Ace Hardware.

Our local electrical suppliers don't seem to want to provide a length
that short.

Thanks.

P.S. I'm really only interested in replies from those with an
educational or professional electrical background.

Electrical Advice...
 

In article ,
says...

On 10/5/11 1:05 AM, JustWait wrote:
On 10/4/2011 10:45 PM, Canuck57 wrote:
On 04/10/2011 1:59 PM, X ` Man wrote:
I'm thinking of upgrading to a larger standby generator, probably a 17KW
model.

The generator will be approximately 50 to 60 feet away from the house
circuit breakers. The wire will run under the main level floor and above
the lower level ceiling.

I want as little current drop as possible. The generator provides
100 amps.

One of the contractors under consideration wants to use aluminum wire,
but I am more than willing to pay the premium between aluminum and
copper. I don't have an electrical "handibook" available.

What I am wondering:

1. Is 4/0 copper wire heavy enough?

2. Anyone know a supplier for about 70 feet of the stuff?

Our local electrical suppliers don't seem to want to provide a length
that short.

Thanks.

P.S. I'm really only interested in replies from those with an
educational or professional electrical background.

So is this for your grow op so the police don't see your utility bill?

In any case, for 1), current heats wire not voltage or wattage, so what
is the voltage as to calculate the current 17KW can generate? Amps
generate the heat. 220 or 115? With that size I will assume 220. 17K/220
= 77.3 amps. And I like being cautious, say AWG 3 for 220, 3/0 for 120.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_wire_gauge

Probably industrial supply shops, as consumer hardware stores will not
carry this. As it gets worse. You need special tools to bend it, you may
need conduit and I strongly suspect local ordinance would require an
inspection or at least a licensed electrician.


Tonight I had to install a new shallow well system for a friend in
Essex. Pretty straight forward, pump, expansion tank, and new conduit
tube from the knife switch above on the floor joist, down to the cutoff
switch... to code.

We noticed the breaker supplied an outside light and an outlet too, so
we had to put in an new breaker and 12 ga, Romex to supply the pump on a
separate line, also required by code.

Electrical and plumbing is not really all that hard, about 20 years ago
I with some help changed my home over from knob and tube to modern day
romex, gpf switches, etc..;), three years ago I redid the plumbing in
our place, including a new section of baseboard heating in one room. For
the water side of the system I used Pex pipe and Sharkbite fittings up
to the floors under the appliance or sink, and went with hard copper
from the floor up... I actually enjoy doing that stuff, But I guess my
bud could have waited for someone with "educational or professional
electrical background" and spent $700 for a $300 (parts) job we could
easily do ourselves. snerk.


I'll do light electrical work, such as replacing a wall switch or
ceiling fixture, but that's about it. The labor for the new generator
involves electricians and a plumber, and the charges for both services
are estimated at around $2500. The job has to be permitted, at least as
far as the plumbing goes. The genny is an LP gas appliance. I don't mess
with installing gas appliances or heavier duty electric, especially when
the wiring or pipes are to be concealed.

Coward.

Electrical Advice...
 

On 10/5/2011 9:25 AM, iBoaterer wrote:
In ,
says...

I'm thinking of upgrading to a larger standby generator, probably a 17KW
model.

The generator will be approximately 50 to 60 feet away from the house
circuit breakers. The wire will run under the main level floor and above
the lower level ceiling.

I want as little current drop as possible. The generator provides
100 amps.

One of the contractors under consideration wants to use aluminum wire,
but I am more than willing to pay the premium between aluminum and
copper. I don't have an electrical "handibook" available.

What I am wondering:

1. Is 4/0 copper wire heavy enough?

You need an "electrical handbook" to figure it out???? If so, you are
already in over your head. There are very simple formulas for finding
out just what size wire you need

I keep one in my electrical box. It's a Readers Digest or something like
that on home electrical. It keeps me honest;) I do a lot of plumbing and
electrical for friends, I pride myself for being able to do it right,
and nice and neat too. I have all the tools for snaking through walls
and foundations too. Sometimes it's even fun.


2. Anyone know a supplier for about 70 feet of the stuff?

Home Depot, Lowes, or Ace Hardware.

Our local electrical suppliers don't seem to want to provide a length
that short.

Thanks.

P.S. I'm really only interested in replies from those with an
educational or professional electrical background.

Electrical Advice...
 

"X ` Man" wrote in message ...



I'll do light electrical work, such as replacing a wall switch or
ceiling fixture, but that's about it. The labor for the new generator
involves electricians and a plumber, and the charges for both services
are estimated at around $2500. The job has to be permitted, at least as
far as the plumbing goes. The genny is an LP gas appliance. I don't mess
with installing gas appliances or heavier duty electric, especially when
the wiring or pipes are to be concealed.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

The following is typical of a house service backup generator:

If your generator supplies 220/240 volts across the hot leads and 115/120
volts between either of the "hot" leads to neutral,
the neutral, current carrying conductor does not have to be the same size as
the hot leads.
It will only carry *half* of the the max generator current at full load.
"Why?" you ask?

Because the two hot leads (L1 and L2) are 180 degrees out of phase with
each other. The current flowing through
either L1 or L2 add algebraically in the neutral line. A 240 v powered
device in your house draws *no* current
through the neutral line. If you have two 120 volt appliances, one
operating from L1 to neutral and the other L2 to
neutral and both draw 10 amperes, the current in the neutral line is zero.
Cool, huh?

Eisboch

Electrical Advice...
 

On 10/5/11 9:53 AM, Eisboch wrote:


"X ` Man" wrote in message ...



I'll do light electrical work, such as replacing a wall switch or
ceiling fixture, but that's about it. The labor for the new generator
involves electricians and a plumber, and the charges for both services
are estimated at around $2500. The job has to be permitted, at least as
far as the plumbing goes. The genny is an LP gas appliance. I don't mess
with installing gas appliances or heavier duty electric, especially when
the wiring or pipes are to be concealed.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

The following is typical of a house service backup generator:

If your generator supplies 220/240 volts across the hot leads and
115/120 volts between either of the "hot" leads to neutral,
the neutral, current carrying conductor does not have to be the same
size as the hot leads.
It will only carry *half* of the the max generator current at full load.
"Why?" you ask?

Because the two hot leads (L1 and L2) are 180 degrees out of phase with
each other. The current flowing through
either L1 or L2 add algebraically in the neutral line. A 240 v powered
device in your house draws *no* current
through the neutral line. If you have two 120 volt appliances, one
operating from L1 to neutral and the other L2 to
neutral and both draw 10 amperes, the current in the neutral line is
zero. Cool, huh?

Eisboch


Hehehe...I'll reread your post a few times...right now, all I hear is a
"whoosh" sound.

--
I'll believe corporations are people when Texas executes one.

Electrical Advice...
 

"X ` Man" wrote in message
m...

On 10/5/11 9:53 AM, Eisboch wrote:


"X ` Man" wrote in message ...



I'll do light electrical work, such as replacing a wall switch or
ceiling fixture, but that's about it. The labor for the new generator
involves electricians and a plumber, and the charges for both services
are estimated at around $2500. The job has to be permitted, at least as
far as the plumbing goes. The genny is an LP gas appliance. I don't mess
with installing gas appliances or heavier duty electric, especially when
the wiring or pipes are to be concealed.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

The following is typical of a house service backup generator:

If your generator supplies 220/240 volts across the hot leads and
115/120 volts between either of the "hot" leads to neutral,
the neutral, current carrying conductor does not have to be the same
size as the hot leads.
It will only carry *half* of the the max generator current at full load.
"Why?" you ask?

Because the two hot leads (L1 and L2) are 180 degrees out of phase with
each other. The current flowing through
either L1 or L2 add algebraically in the neutral line. A 240 v powered
device in your house draws *no* current
through the neutral line. If you have two 120 volt appliances, one
operating from L1 to neutral and the other L2 to
neutral and both draw 10 amperes, the current in the neutral line is
zero. Cool, huh?

Eisboch


Hehehe...I'll reread your post a few times...right now, all I hear is a
"whoosh" sound.

---------------------------------------------

Just to clarify ... I am talking about the wiring that will run from your
genset to the transfer
switch connected to your house power panel. ... You should *definitely*
have an automatic
transfer switch. Worse thing you want is to have commercial power come
back on while
you are running on the generator power and the two are not isolated from
each other.
Bad things can happen.

I like to ask electricians the question about the neutral wire size. Many
don't know why .... they just go by the code book.

Eisboch

Electrical Advice...
 

On 10/5/11 10:16 AM, Eisboch wrote:


"X ` Man" wrote in message
m...

On 10/5/11 9:53 AM, Eisboch wrote:


"X ` Man" wrote in message ...



I'll do light electrical work, such as replacing a wall switch or
ceiling fixture, but that's about it. The labor for the new generator
involves electricians and a plumber, and the charges for both services
are estimated at around $2500. The job has to be permitted, at least as
far as the plumbing goes. The genny is an LP gas appliance. I don't mess
with installing gas appliances or heavier duty electric, especially when
the wiring or pipes are to be concealed.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

The following is typical of a house service backup generator:

If your generator supplies 220/240 volts across the hot leads and
115/120 volts between either of the "hot" leads to neutral,
the neutral, current carrying conductor does not have to be the same
size as the hot leads.
It will only carry *half* of the the max generator current at full load.
"Why?" you ask?

Because the two hot leads (L1 and L2) are 180 degrees out of phase with
each other. The current flowing through
either L1 or L2 add algebraically in the neutral line. A 240 v powered
device in your house draws *no* current
through the neutral line. If you have two 120 volt appliances, one
operating from L1 to neutral and the other L2 to
neutral and both draw 10 amperes, the current in the neutral line is
zero. Cool, huh?

Eisboch


Hehehe...I'll reread your post a few times...right now, all I hear is a
"whoosh" sound.

---------------------------------------------

Just to clarify ... I am talking about the wiring that will run from
your genset to the transfer
switch connected to your house power panel. ... You should *definitely*
have an automatic
transfer switch. Worse thing you want is to have commercial power come
back on while
you are running on the generator power and the two are not isolated from
each other.
Bad things can happen.

I like to ask electricians the question about the neutral wire size.
Many don't know why .... they just go by the code book.

Eisboch

Yes, we'll have an auto transfer switch.

Specifically, the new genset will be located at the back of the house,
close to where the metal pipe line from the buried LP gas tank comes out
of the ground and enters the house. The alternative was to place the
genny on the side of the house, adjacent to where the utility power
enters the house and finds the breaker boxes on the other side of the
concrete foundation wall. But that would have required nearly 100' of
buried gas line, and doing that would have been far more expensive than
running a heavy electric wire in the space between the first and ground
levels. That run is between 50' and 60' and is reasonably accessible.

So, if you were specifying the wiring from the genny to the breaker box,
assuming an output at the genny of 70 to 100 amps, what would you choose?

Thanks.

--
I'll believe corporations are people when Texas executes one.

Electrical Advice...
 

On 10/5/2011 10:03 AM, X ` Man wrote:
On 10/5/11 9:53 AM, Eisboch wrote:


"X ` Man" wrote in message ...



I'll do light electrical work, such as replacing a wall switch or
ceiling fixture, but that's about it. The labor for the new generator
involves electricians and a plumber, and the charges for both services
are estimated at around $2500. The job has to be permitted, at least as
far as the plumbing goes. The genny is an LP gas appliance. I don't mess
with installing gas appliances or heavier duty electric, especially when
the wiring or pipes are to be concealed.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

The following is typical of a house service backup generator:

If your generator supplies 220/240 volts across the hot leads and
115/120 volts between either of the "hot" leads to neutral,
the neutral, current carrying conductor does not have to be the same
size as the hot leads.
It will only carry *half* of the the max generator current at full load.
"Why?" you ask?

Because the two hot leads (L1 and L2) are 180 degrees out of phase with
each other. The current flowing through
either L1 or L2 add algebraically in the neutral line. A 240 v powered
device in your house draws *no* current
through the neutral line. If you have two 120 volt appliances, one
operating from L1 to neutral and the other L2 to
neutral and both draw 10 amperes, the current in the neutral line is
zero. Cool, huh?

Eisboch


Hehehe...I'll reread your post a few times...right now, all I hear is a
"whoosh" sound.


Lets get your head spinning a little faster. In the above example, if
you shut off one of the 10 amp appliances, 10 amps of current will flow
in the neutral line.
BTW Do you know the diameter of a 4/0 wire?

Electrical Advice...
 

"X ` Man" wrote in message
m...

So, if you were specifying the wiring from the genny to the breaker box,
assuming an output at the genny of 70 to 100 amps, what would you choose?

Thanks.


My advise is to go by what your hired, licensed electrician specifies. He's
most knowledgable of
your local codes. I am not an electrician but I stayed at a Holiday Inn
Express last night.

Eisboch

Electrical Advice...
 

In article ,
says...

"X ` Man" wrote in message
m...

So, if you were specifying the wiring from the genny to the breaker box,
assuming an output at the genny of 70 to 100 amps, what would you choose?

Thanks.


My advise is to go by what your hired, licensed electrician specifies. He's
most knowledgable of
your local codes. I am not an electrician but I stayed at a Holiday Inn
Express last night.

Eisboch

One factor that, I don't think has been discussed is voltage drop,
further, how much voltage drop can whatever you'll be running take
without problems.

Electrical Advice...
 

On 10/5/11 12:10 PM, Eisboch wrote:

"X ` Man" wrote in message
m...

So, if you were specifying the wiring from the genny to the breaker
box, assuming an output at the genny of 70 to 100 amps, what would you
choose?

Thanks.


My advise is to go by what your hired, licensed electrician specifies.
He's most knowledgable of
your local codes. I am not an electrician but I stayed at a Holiday Inn
Express last night.

Eisboch

Well, you know a lot more about 'lectricity than I do, because I
couldn't book a room at that Holiday Inn Express. But we did have a fine
breakfast last week at the Equinox Diner in Mystic, during my annual
visit to Connecticut.

--
I'll believe corporations are people when Texas executes one.

Electrical Advice...
 

On 10/5/11 1:34 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 05 Oct 2011 10:27:14 -0400, X `
wrote:

Yes, we'll have an auto transfer switch.

The new code says that if you have an automatic transfer switch, the
generator has to be capable of driving the entire connected load since
you may not be there to do manual load management.


Well, the 17KW genny, according to the factory, produces 70 amps at full
load, and the 20KW, if memory serves, produces 100 amps at full load.
The final bidder is coming by tomorrow for a look-see. I'll see what he
says. The one thing I do know is that I want to use copper wire, *not*
aluminum wire.

--
I'll believe corporations are people when Texas executes one.

Electrical Advice...
 

In article ,
says...

On Wed, 5 Oct 2011 10:16:42 -0400, "Eisboch" wrote:

I like to ask electricians the question about the neutral wire size. Many
don't know why .... they just go by the code book.

They go by the code book because it is the law.
..

Bingo!

Electrical Advice...
 

On 05/10/2011 5:57 AM, Drifter wrote:
On 10/4/2011 10:45 PM, Canuck57 wrote:
On 04/10/2011 2:52 PM, Drifter wrote:
On 10/4/2011 3:59 PM, X ` Man wrote:
I'm thinking of upgrading to a larger standby generator, probably a
17KW
model.

The generator will be approximately 50 to 60 feet away from the house
circuit breakers. The wire will run under the main level floor and
above
the lower level ceiling.

I want as little current drop as possible. The generator provides
100 amps.

One of the contractors under consideration wants to use aluminum wire,
but I am more than willing to pay the premium between aluminum and
copper. I don't have an electrical "handibook" available.

What I am wondering:

1. Is 4/0 copper wire heavy enough?

2. Anyone know a supplier for about 70 feet of the stuff?

Our local electrical suppliers don't seem to want to provide a length
that short.

Thanks.

P.S. I'm really only interested in replies from those with an
educational or professional electrical background.




You mean voltage drop, don't you? Here's a calculator
http://www.csgnetwork.com/voltagedropcalc.html

1. Probably.
2. Yup
3. Shop somewhere else or buy their minimum.

P.S. You need to satisfy local building codes irregardless of N E C. You
might even need permits and inspections.

You're a big boy. You should know how to interview and hire contractors.


And a fuse box.


Do you think Krause meant to say 4GA instead of 4/0? I assumed he did.
There is a substantial size difference.

Yep, he might have and a big difference too. In any case, it isn't a
end user task. He be best to get a qualified electrician that knows the
local codes.
--
Eat the rich, screw the companies and wonder why there are no jobs.
-- Obama and the lefty fleabagger attitude

Electrical Advice...
 

On 10/5/11 5:01 PM, Canuck57 wrote:
On 05/10/2011 5:57 AM, Drifter wrote:
On 10/4/2011 10:45 PM, Canuck57 wrote:
On 04/10/2011 2:52 PM, Drifter wrote:
On 10/4/2011 3:59 PM, X ` Man wrote:
I'm thinking of upgrading to a larger standby generator, probably a
17KW
model.

The generator will be approximately 50 to 60 feet away from the house
circuit breakers. The wire will run under the main level floor and
above
the lower level ceiling.

I want as little current drop as possible. The generator provides
100 amps.

One of the contractors under consideration wants to use aluminum wire,
but I am more than willing to pay the premium between aluminum and
copper. I don't have an electrical "handibook" available.

What I am wondering:

1. Is 4/0 copper wire heavy enough?

2. Anyone know a supplier for about 70 feet of the stuff?

Our local electrical suppliers don't seem to want to provide a length
that short.

Thanks.

P.S. I'm really only interested in replies from those with an
educational or professional electrical background.




You mean voltage drop, don't you? Here's a calculator
http://www.csgnetwork.com/voltagedropcalc.html

1. Probably.
2. Yup
3. Shop somewhere else or buy their minimum.

P.S. You need to satisfy local building codes irregardless of N E C.
You
might even need permits and inspections.

You're a big boy. You should know how to interview and hire
contractors.


And a fuse box.


Do you think Krause meant to say 4GA instead of 4/0? I assumed he did.
There is a substantial size difference.

Yep, he might have and a big difference too. In any case, it isn't a end
user task. He be best to get a qualified electrician that knows the
local codes.


D'oh. I have no intention of installing a 17KW or 20KW generator at the
house. I've just been interviewing contractors and asking questions. The
install will be done by licensed electricians and a licensed plumber,
the latter one of the plumbers who works for our LP gas supplier. This
will be a replacement for a small capacity genny we've been using to
power a couple of circuits. The new one will run about half the house,
including one of our heat pumps, the well pump, a pair of refrigerators
and various lights and outlets.

--
I'll believe corporations are people when Texas executes one.

Electrical Advice...
 

On 04/10/2011 11:05 PM, JustWait wrote:
On 10/4/2011 10:45 PM, Canuck57 wrote:
On 04/10/2011 1:59 PM, X ` Man wrote:
I'm thinking of upgrading to a larger standby generator, probably a 17KW
model.

The generator will be approximately 50 to 60 feet away from the house
circuit breakers. The wire will run under the main level floor and above
the lower level ceiling.

I want as little current drop as possible. The generator provides
100 amps.

One of the contractors under consideration wants to use aluminum wire,
but I am more than willing to pay the premium between aluminum and
copper. I don't have an electrical "handibook" available.

What I am wondering:

1. Is 4/0 copper wire heavy enough?

2. Anyone know a supplier for about 70 feet of the stuff?

Our local electrical suppliers don't seem to want to provide a length
that short.

Thanks.

P.S. I'm really only interested in replies from those with an
educational or professional electrical background.

So is this for your grow op so the police don't see your utility bill?

In any case, for 1), current heats wire not voltage or wattage, so what
is the voltage as to calculate the current 17KW can generate? Amps
generate the heat. 220 or 115? With that size I will assume 220. 17K/220
= 77.3 amps. And I like being cautious, say AWG 3 for 220, 3/0 for 120.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_wire_gauge

Probably industrial supply shops, as consumer hardware stores will not
carry this. As it gets worse. You need special tools to bend it, you may
need conduit and I strongly suspect local ordinance would require an
inspection or at least a licensed electrician.


Tonight I had to install a new shallow well system for a friend in
Essex. Pretty straight forward, pump, expansion tank, and new conduit
tube from the knife switch above on the floor joist, down to the cutoff
switch... to code.

We noticed the breaker supplied an outside light and an outlet too, so
we had to put in an new breaker and 12 ga, Romex to supply the pump on a
separate line, also required by code.

Electrical and plumbing is not really all that hard, about 20 years ago
I with some help changed my home over from knob and tube to modern day
romex, gpf switches, etc..;), three years ago I redid the plumbing in
our place, including a new section of baseboard heating in one room. For
the water side of the system I used Pex pipe and Sharkbite fittings up
to the floors under the appliance or sink, and went with hard copper
from the floor up... I actually enjoy doing that stuff, But I guess my
bud could have waited for someone with "educational or professional
electrical background" and spent $700 for a $300 (parts) job we could
easily do ourselves. snerk.

I agree normal wiring isn't that hard. However 4GA isn't normal wiring
neither is 70+ Amps and futzing with the mains. Have that short out and
your face could be copper or aluminum coated. And if it burns his home,
and no inspection, it isn't covered.

It isn't a wall socket or light switch job.

It also needs to be inspected even if you do it yourself.

For example if it supplies the house, he needs a switch panel between
the fuse box and the incoming mains. Which also means coordinating
having the power off to insert an approved switch.
--
Eat the rich, screw the companies and wonder why there are no jobs.
-- Obama and the lefty fleabagger attitude

Electrical Advice...
 

On 05/10/2011 7:53 AM, Eisboch wrote:


"X ` Man" wrote in message ...



I'll do light electrical work, such as replacing a wall switch or
ceiling fixture, but that's about it. The labor for the new generator
involves electricians and a plumber, and the charges for both services
are estimated at around $2500. The job has to be permitted, at least as
far as the plumbing goes. The genny is an LP gas appliance. I don't mess
with installing gas appliances or heavier duty electric, especially when
the wiring or pipes are to be concealed.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

The following is typical of a house service backup generator:

If your generator supplies 220/240 volts across the hot leads and
115/120 volts between either of the "hot" leads to neutral,
the neutral, current carrying conductor does not have to be the same
size as the hot leads.
It will only carry *half* of the the max generator current at full load.
"Why?" you ask?

Because the two hot leads (L1 and L2) are 180 degrees out of phase with
each other. The current flowing through
either L1 or L2 add algebraically in the neutral line. A 240 v powered
device in your house draws *no* current
through the neutral line. If you have two 120 volt appliances, one
operating from L1 to neutral and the other L2 to
neutral and both draw 10 amperes, the current in the neutral line is
zero. Cool, huh?

Eisboch

So are you an electrician or engineer? You are correct. Gets even
worse if the generator is 3 phase, but not many homes would use that.

Plus it assume both sides the 2 phase bus is reasonably balanced.
--
Eat the rich, screw the companies and wonder why there are no jobs.
-- Obama and the lefty fleabagger attitude

Electrical Advice...
 

On 05/10/2011 8:03 AM, X ` Man wrote:
On 10/5/11 9:53 AM, Eisboch wrote:


"X ` Man" wrote in message ...



I'll do light electrical work, such as replacing a wall switch or
ceiling fixture, but that's about it. The labor for the new generator
involves electricians and a plumber, and the charges for both services
are estimated at around $2500. The job has to be permitted, at least as
far as the plumbing goes. The genny is an LP gas appliance. I don't mess
with installing gas appliances or heavier duty electric, especially when
the wiring or pipes are to be concealed.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

The following is typical of a house service backup generator:

If your generator supplies 220/240 volts across the hot leads and
115/120 volts between either of the "hot" leads to neutral,
the neutral, current carrying conductor does not have to be the same
size as the hot leads.
It will only carry *half* of the the max generator current at full load.
"Why?" you ask?

Because the two hot leads (L1 and L2) are 180 degrees out of phase with
each other. The current flowing through
either L1 or L2 add algebraically in the neutral line. A 240 v powered
device in your house draws *no* current
through the neutral line. If you have two 120 volt appliances, one
operating from L1 to neutral and the other L2 to
neutral and both draw 10 amperes, the current in the neutral line is
zero. Cool, huh?

Eisboch


Hehehe...I'll reread your post a few times...right now, all I hear is a
"whoosh" sound.

He is right though.

Gets even worse when you consider capacitive and inductive phase
variances of appliances.


--
Eat the rich, screw the companies and wonder why there are no jobs.
-- Obama and the lefty fleabagger attitude

Electrical Advice...
 

On 05/10/2011 11:40 AM, X ` Man wrote:
On 10/5/11 1:34 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 05 Oct 2011 10:27:14 -0400, X `
wrote:

Yes, we'll have an auto transfer switch.

The new code says that if you have an automatic transfer switch, the
generator has to be capable of driving the entire connected load since
you may not be there to do manual load management.


Well, the 17KW genny, according to the factory, produces 70 amps at full
load, and the 20KW, if memory serves, produces 100 amps at full load.
The final bidder is coming by tomorrow for a look-see. I'll see what he
says. The one thing I do know is that I want to use copper wire, *not*
aluminum wire.

Good choice. Aluminum is crap for electricity.


--
Eat the rich, screw the companies and wonder why there are no jobs.
-- Obama and the lefty fleabagger attitude

Electrical Advice...
 

On 10/5/11 5:14 PM, Canuck57 wrote:
On 04/10/2011 11:05 PM, JustWait wrote:
On 10/4/2011 10:45 PM, Canuck57 wrote:
On 04/10/2011 1:59 PM, X ` Man wrote:
I'm thinking of upgrading to a larger standby generator, probably a
17KW
model.

The generator will be approximately 50 to 60 feet away from the house
circuit breakers. The wire will run under the main level floor and
above
the lower level ceiling.

I want as little current drop as possible. The generator provides
100 amps.

One of the contractors under consideration wants to use aluminum wire,
but I am more than willing to pay the premium between aluminum and
copper. I don't have an electrical "handibook" available.

What I am wondering:

1. Is 4/0 copper wire heavy enough?

2. Anyone know a supplier for about 70 feet of the stuff?

Our local electrical suppliers don't seem to want to provide a length
that short.

Thanks.

P.S. I'm really only interested in replies from those with an
educational or professional electrical background.

So is this for your grow op so the police don't see your utility bill?

In any case, for 1), current heats wire not voltage or wattage, so what
is the voltage as to calculate the current 17KW can generate? Amps
generate the heat. 220 or 115? With that size I will assume 220. 17K/220
= 77.3 amps. And I like being cautious, say AWG 3 for 220, 3/0 for 120.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_wire_gauge

Probably industrial supply shops, as consumer hardware stores will not
carry this. As it gets worse. You need special tools to bend it, you may
need conduit and I strongly suspect local ordinance would require an
inspection or at least a licensed electrician.


Tonight I had to install a new shallow well system for a friend in
Essex. Pretty straight forward, pump, expansion tank, and new conduit
tube from the knife switch above on the floor joist, down to the cutoff
switch... to code.

We noticed the breaker supplied an outside light and an outlet too, so
we had to put in an new breaker and 12 ga, Romex to supply the pump on a
separate line, also required by code.

Electrical and plumbing is not really all that hard, about 20 years ago
I with some help changed my home over from knob and tube to modern day
romex, gpf switches, etc..;), three years ago I redid the plumbing in
our place, including a new section of baseboard heating in one room. For
the water side of the system I used Pex pipe and Sharkbite fittings up
to the floors under the appliance or sink, and went with hard copper
from the floor up... I actually enjoy doing that stuff, But I guess my
bud could have waited for someone with "educational or professional
electrical background" and spent $700 for a $300 (parts) job we could
easily do ourselves. snerk.

I agree normal wiring isn't that hard. However 4GA isn't normal wiring
neither is 70+ Amps and futzing with the mains. Have that short out and
your face could be copper or aluminum coated. And if it burns his home,
and no inspection, it isn't covered.

It isn't a wall socket or light switch job.

It also needs to be inspected even if you do it yourself.

For example if it supplies the house, he needs a switch panel between
the fuse box and the incoming mains. Which also means coordinating
having the power off to insert an approved switch.


There are a half dozen licensed electrical contractors in my immediate
area who do this sort of work. The electric and plumbing have to be
permitted and inspected. I'm sure some people might not bother with the
permits and do the work themselves, but...if your house blows up or
burns to the ground, your homeowners' insurer may inquire about the
any electrical or gas line work done in the house, and if you have to
say you did it yourself without the proper permits and inspections, I
suspect you'll be S.O.L., insurance-wise.



--
I'll believe corporations are people when Texas executes one.

Electrical Advice...
 

On 10/5/11 5:23 PM, Canuck57 wrote:
On 05/10/2011 11:40 AM, X ` Man wrote:
On 10/5/11 1:34 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 05 Oct 2011 10:27:14 -0400, X `
wrote:

Yes, we'll have an auto transfer switch.

The new code says that if you have an automatic transfer switch, the
generator has to be capable of driving the entire connected load since
you may not be there to do manual load management.


Well, the 17KW genny, according to the factory, produces 70 amps at full
load, and the 20KW, if memory serves, produces 100 amps at full load.
The final bidder is coming by tomorrow for a look-see. I'll see what he
says. The one thing I do know is that I want to use copper wire, *not*
aluminum wire.

Good choice. Aluminum is crap for electricity.



It's a $6,000 to $7,500 job...the cost difference between copper and
aluminum wire isn't going to be of any real significance over the cost
of the job.

--
I'll believe corporations are people when Texas executes one.

Electrical Advice...
 

In article ,
says...

In article ,
says...

"X ` Man" wrote in message
m...

So, if you were specifying the wiring from the genny to the breaker box,
assuming an output at the genny of 70 to 100 amps, what would you choose?

Thanks.


My advise is to go by what your hired, licensed electrician specifies. He's
most knowledgable of
your local codes. I am not an electrician but I stayed at a Holiday Inn
Express last night.

Eisboch

One factor that, I don't think has been discussed is voltage drop,
further, how much voltage drop can whatever you'll be running take
without problems.

Most of your home appliances are not sensitive enough to care about an 8
to 10 percent voltage drop.

Electrical Advice...
 

On 05/10/2011 3:05 PM, X ` Man wrote:
On 10/5/11 5:01 PM, Canuck57 wrote:
On 05/10/2011 5:57 AM, Drifter wrote:
On 10/4/2011 10:45 PM, Canuck57 wrote:
On 04/10/2011 2:52 PM, Drifter wrote:
On 10/4/2011 3:59 PM, X ` Man wrote:
I'm thinking of upgrading to a larger standby generator, probably a
17KW
model.

The generator will be approximately 50 to 60 feet away from the house
circuit breakers. The wire will run under the main level floor and
above
the lower level ceiling.

I want as little current drop as possible. The generator provides
100 amps.

One of the contractors under consideration wants to use aluminum
wire,
but I am more than willing to pay the premium between aluminum and
copper. I don't have an electrical "handibook" available.

What I am wondering:

1. Is 4/0 copper wire heavy enough?

2. Anyone know a supplier for about 70 feet of the stuff?

Our local electrical suppliers don't seem to want to provide a length
that short.

Thanks.

P.S. I'm really only interested in replies from those with an
educational or professional electrical background.




You mean voltage drop, don't you? Here's a calculator
http://www.csgnetwork.com/voltagedropcalc.html

1. Probably.
2. Yup
3. Shop somewhere else or buy their minimum.

P.S. You need to satisfy local building codes irregardless of N E C.
You
might even need permits and inspections.

You're a big boy. You should know how to interview and hire
contractors.


And a fuse box.


Do you think Krause meant to say 4GA instead of 4/0? I assumed he did.
There is a substantial size difference.

Yep, he might have and a big difference too. In any case, it isn't a end
user task. He be best to get a qualified electrician that knows the
local codes.


D'oh. I have no intention of installing a 17KW or 20KW generator at the
house. I've just been interviewing contractors and asking questions. The
install will be done by licensed electricians and a licensed plumber,
the latter one of the plumbers who works for our LP gas supplier. This
will be a replacement for a small capacity genny we've been using to
power a couple of circuits. The new one will run about half the house,
including one of our heat pumps, the well pump, a pair of refrigerators
and various lights and outlets.

Good, sounded like you were going to DIY it. LP? Does it run on LP or
gasoline? Just curious.

BTW, you don't have to have a generator for your whole house. If you
have a sub-panel, just switch the essentials to the sub-panel and just
switch it. Say furnace, freezer and some lights is all you really need.


--
Eat the rich, screw the companies and wonder why there are no jobs.
-- Obama and the lefty fleabagger attitude

Electrical Advice...
 

On 10/5/11 6:45 PM, Canuck57 wrote:
On 05/10/2011 3:05 PM, X ` Man wrote:
On 10/5/11 5:01 PM, Canuck57 wrote:
On 05/10/2011 5:57 AM, Drifter wrote:
On 10/4/2011 10:45 PM, Canuck57 wrote:
On 04/10/2011 2:52 PM, Drifter wrote:
On 10/4/2011 3:59 PM, X ` Man wrote:
I'm thinking of upgrading to a larger standby generator, probably a
17KW
model.

The generator will be approximately 50 to 60 feet away from the
house
circuit breakers. The wire will run under the main level floor and
above
the lower level ceiling.

I want as little current drop as possible. The generator provides
100 amps.

One of the contractors under consideration wants to use aluminum
wire,
but I am more than willing to pay the premium between aluminum and
copper. I don't have an electrical "handibook" available.

What I am wondering:

1. Is 4/0 copper wire heavy enough?

2. Anyone know a supplier for about 70 feet of the stuff?

Our local electrical suppliers don't seem to want to provide a
length
that short.

Thanks.

P.S. I'm really only interested in replies from those with an
educational or professional electrical background.




You mean voltage drop, don't you? Here's a calculator
http://www.csgnetwork.com/voltagedropcalc.html

1. Probably.
2. Yup
3. Shop somewhere else or buy their minimum.

P.S. You need to satisfy local building codes irregardless of N E C.
You
might even need permits and inspections.

You're a big boy. You should know how to interview and hire
contractors.


And a fuse box.


Do you think Krause meant to say 4GA instead of 4/0? I assumed he did.
There is a substantial size difference.

Yep, he might have and a big difference too. In any case, it isn't a end
user task. He be best to get a qualified electrician that knows the
local codes.


D'oh. I have no intention of installing a 17KW or 20KW generator at the
house. I've just been interviewing contractors and asking questions. The
install will be done by licensed electricians and a licensed plumber,
the latter one of the plumbers who works for our LP gas supplier. This
will be a replacement for a small capacity genny we've been using to
power a couple of circuits. The new one will run about half the house,
including one of our heat pumps, the well pump, a pair of refrigerators
and various lights and outlets.

Good, sounded like you were going to DIY it. LP? Does it run on LP or
gasoline? Just curious.

BTW, you don't have to have a generator for your whole house. If you
have a sub-panel, just switch the essentials to the sub-panel and just
switch it. Say furnace, freezer and some lights is all you really need.



1. No, I never had or implied I was going to do it myself.
2. We have a 500 gallon LP tank buried in the yard.
3. We're only going to be running *some* of the house off the genny,
when necessary. One of the heat pumps, the well pump, two refrigerators,
some light and plug circuits, et cetera.

--
I'll believe corporations are people when Texas executes one.

Electrical Advice...
 

X ` Man wrote:
On 10/5/11 5:23 PM, Canuck57 wrote:
On 05/10/2011 11:40 AM, X ` Man wrote:
On 10/5/11 1:34 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 05 Oct 2011 10:27:14 -0400, X `
wrote:

Yes, we'll have an auto transfer switch.

The new code says that if you have an automatic transfer switch, the
generator has to be capable of driving the entire connected load since
you may not be there to do manual load management.


Well, the 17KW genny, according to the factory, produces 70 amps at
full
load, and the 20KW, if memory serves, produces 100 amps at full load.
The final bidder is coming by tomorrow for a look-see. I'll see what he
says. The one thing I do know is that I want to use copper wire, *not*
aluminum wire.

Good choice. Aluminum is crap for electricity.



It's a $6,000 to $7,500 job...the cost difference between copper and
aluminum wire isn't going to be of any real significance over the cost
of the job.

You're paying too much. Unions will do that to you. Find a local,
licensed guy and save a few grand, silly!

-HB

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4r7wHMg5Yjg

Electrical Advice...
 

"Honey Badger" wrote in message
...

X ` Man wrote:

The one thing I do know is that I want to use copper wire, *not*
aluminum wire.

Good choice. Aluminum is crap for electricity.

---------------------------------------------------

Not really. Aluminum wire is used in just about all power transmission
lines including that which connects to your house panel.

Aluminum wiring within the house was a problem back in the 60's and early
70's, but the aluminum wire wasn't the problem.
The problem was with the terminations and connections. Aluminum will
oxidize creating aluminum oxide which is an insulator
rather than a conductor. The type of aluminum alloy for wiring was changed
and terminations developed that prevent oxygen
from getting to the aluminum. Nothing wrong with it now if the correct
terminations are used. For power transfer ... like what
Harry is contemplating for his house genset, there's really no reason to
spend the extra $$ for copper power feeds from the
genset to the house panel. Aluminum is just fine, in fact is preferred over
copper for that use.

When we installed our pool and accessories a few years back, all the power
runs ... including a 100 amp, 240 volt service to
the pool filter and heater were all done in buried aluminum power. We also
put a 50 amp, 240v service outside for use with
an RV we had at the time. The contractor also pre-wired a feed for a house
genset that he was trying to sell us at the time.
We never put it in and quite frankly, I wouldn't bother. The amount of
time that we have lost power in the last 10 years just
doesn't justify a whole house generator IMO. If the power is out for more
than a few hours, I just fire up the little Honda
EU-2000, plug in the refrigerator and a couple of lights and we survive
fine. The longest recent period without power was
during Hurricane or Tropical Storm Irene and that was for about 36 hours.
To tell the truth, it was sorta enjoyable without
TV, radio, computer Internet access, etc. Nice change of pace.

Eisboch

Electrical Advice...
 

On 10/5/11 8:39 PM, Eisboch wrote:


"Honey Badger" wrote in message
...

X ` Man wrote:

The one thing I do know is that I want to use copper wire, *not*
aluminum wire.

Good choice. Aluminum is crap for electricity.

---------------------------------------------------

Not really. Aluminum wire is used in just about all power transmission
lines including that which connects to your house panel.

Aluminum wiring within the house was a problem back in the 60's and
early 70's, but the aluminum wire wasn't the problem.
The problem was with the terminations and connections. Aluminum will
oxidize creating aluminum oxide which is an insulator
rather than a conductor. The type of aluminum alloy for wiring was
changed and terminations developed that prevent oxygen
from getting to the aluminum. Nothing wrong with it now if the correct
terminations are used. For power transfer ... like what
Harry is contemplating for his house genset, there's really no reason to
spend the extra $$ for copper power feeds from the
genset to the house panel. Aluminum is just fine, in fact is preferred
over copper for that use.

When we installed our pool and accessories a few years back, all the
power runs ... including a 100 amp, 240 volt service to
the pool filter and heater were all done in buried aluminum power. We
also put a 50 amp, 240v service outside for use with
an RV we had at the time. The contractor also pre-wired a feed for a
house genset that he was trying to sell us at the time.
We never put it in and quite frankly, I wouldn't bother. The amount of
time that we have lost power in the last 10 years just
doesn't justify a whole house generator IMO. If the power is out for
more than a few hours, I just fire up the little Honda
EU-2000, plug in the refrigerator and a couple of lights and we survive
fine. The longest recent period without power was
during Hurricane or Tropical Storm Irene and that was for about 36
hours. To tell the truth, it was sorta enjoyable without
TV, radio, computer Internet access, etc. Nice change of pace.

Eisboch



Our situation is different here in southern Maryland. Without
electricity, we have no water...we're on a deep well. No water to drink,
no water to wash, no water to flush toilets. Without electricity, the
food in the refigerators spoils. Without power during a long cold spell,
the water lines near the exterior of the house can freeze.

We have fairly frequent power outages out here in ruralville.

--
I'll believe corporations are people when Texas executes one.

Electrical Advice...
 

"X ` Man" wrote in message
m...



Our situation is different here in southern Maryland. Without
electricity, we have no water...we're on a deep well. No water to drink,
no water to wash, no water to flush toilets. Without electricity, the
food in the refigerators spoils. Without power during a long cold spell,
the water lines near the exterior of the house can freeze.

We have fairly frequent power outages out here in ruralville.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

I agree. If we didn't have town water I probably would have a generator
installed ... or get one for the tractor
power take-off. We had a similar situation to yours in Florida. No power
= no water. You can survive for quite
a while with no power as long as you have water.

Our house here in MA has gas (propane) for the stoves and also for the
fireplaces. We can generate some heat
using the fireplaces (although very inefficient) and can cook etc. on the
stoves. So, lack of power isn't a major
problem although it gets old fast.

Eisboch