On Jun 14, 4:53*pm, wrote:
On Tue, 14 Jun 2011 13:22:27 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch



wrote:
On Jun 14, 4:12*pm, Richard Casady
wrote:
On Tue, 14 Jun 2011 12:49:49 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch

wrote:
On Jun 14, 3:38*pm, wrote:
On Tue, 14 Jun 2011 15:07:16 -0400, iBoat wrote:
In article 4789ce48-54a7-4d7a-8dc5-
,
says...

On Jun 14, 2:30 pm, I_am_Tosk wrote:
In article ,
says...

In article ,
says...

On Tue, 14 Jun 2011 10:08:51 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch
wrote:

On Jun 14, 1:05 pm, wrote:
On Tue, 14 Jun 2011 09:04:40 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch

wrote:
Thinking about my wayward dinghy caused me to remember another
wandering object on one of my recent Bahamas trips.
I had finished cooking on the magma grill (spoiled crew demanded warm
mac and cheese) and tried removing the 3/4 full propane canister.
Once removed, it was leaking propane, uh oh. No way this thing is
staying aboard. I cannot leave it on the grill cuz it is choppy and
the grill has to be stowed. After considering various options, I
decided littering was the safest one so I simply threw it overboard
and settled down to do some reading. A bit later, "Thunk, Thunk,
WTF?", I go outside and look down and there's the canister bumping on
the hull so I fished it out with the crab net.
This time, I really heave it far away and go to bed. Yeah, you
guessed right, middle of the night, "Thunk, Thunk", tide had carried
it right back to me.
Realizing I'm gonna have to get serious about this, I pull out the
tide tables and turn on a light eliciting lots of complaints from
sleeping crew but I find the tide will be running out in an hour. So,
I wait up till then and finally get rid of the canister but never did
get back to sleep waiting for the "Thunk, Thunk" again..

Why didn't you just slowly open it up down wind, let it empty, then
tie it up outside overnight?

No wind.

Seems like there would be something. None at all? All night? How about
tying a weight to it and the boat, then opening the valve.... it would
sink down current of your boat, bubble along, then you could pull it
back in. I thought boaters were all about creative thinking?

Yeah, take all night to come up with a scheme to get rid of a little
propane gas...... brilliant.

Progressive "thinkers".. How much weight do you suppose it would take to
sink a half full tank? snerk...

--
Team Rowdy Mouse, Banned from the Mall for life!

People on the west coast have no idea how glassy still the Gulf of
Mexico can get. *When holding a leaking canister aboard a boat, time
is critical lest the heavy propane get in your bilge. *Even holding it
over the side leaking could be dangerous. *In this case, safety takes
precedence over not littering.

Let alone the fact that it's heavier than air and will fill a boat cabin
in a heartbeat.

Wow... you guys call yourselves sailors? How about closing up the
boat. Isn't that what you're supposed to do when you gas up? Sheesh....
and I don't know diddly about boats.

Good Gawd, don't be so anal y'all. *I take the grill off the stern
rail because if there is any chop it could fall overboard. *It was a
very still night but chop can happen in a few minutes.
Getting the canister below surface would not stop it from leaking near
my boat and propane could get aboard. *Safety requires you get rid of
it ASAP. *Sinking it even "just below the surface" would require
several pounds of weight and unless I want to sacrifice some wrenches,
I cannot think of anything that would sink it and as I just pointed
out, sinking it does not stop it from leaking. *BTW, physics says
enough to sink it "just below the surface" is the same as "all the way
to the bottom" at least in shallow water.
Hazard to navigation? *WHAT? *In a few hours, it will be empty and you
think a small propane canister is a hazard to nav? *Be serious.

I don't consider it boating, more like cave diving, far too risky, but
they sell hundred mile per hour boats. You would hit with four hundred
times the impact energy at 100 as you would at 5, with, say, a
sailboat. Such a boat might be badly, even fatally, damaged. Less
farfetched, I would not care to pay the possible repairs to the
sterndrive on my starcraft.

Casady

If yer worried about a 16 oz canister, are you more worried about the
logs floating around out there from the rivers?

So, it's ok to toss small stuff like floating metal? Just because
there's one hazard already there, doesn't mean another deliberately
placed is ok.

"neutral Buoyancy" simply means the same average density as water.
Putting the object under water will still allow it to release gas
which will rise to the surface. In spite of the propane being higher
density than air, some will diffuse to higher than the transom and
then will sink into the bilge, all basic physics. The hazard to my
boat from this canister was orders of magnitude greater than the
hazard to any other boat from an empty canister.

In article 42a60c43-00c3-450a-9e7a-
,
says...


"neutral Buoyancy" simply means the same average density as water.
Putting the object under water will still allow it to release gas
which will rise to the surface. In spite of the propane being higher
density than air, some will diffuse to higher than the transom and
then will sink into the bilge, all basic physics. The hazard to my
boat from this canister was orders of magnitude greater than the
hazard to any other boat from an empty canister.

Stop digging. It's laughable to say a small cannister of slowly leaking
propane bobbing in the sea will blow up your boat.
A mere foot away from the canister the gas will be too dilute to
combust.
A fart is orders of magnitude more likely to ignite than any measure of
gas that gets to your bilge.
You have no certitude here.
Just nav hazard creation.

On Jun 14, 5:25*pm, Boating All Out wrote:
In article 42a60c43-00c3-450a-9e7a-
,
says...



"neutral Buoyancy" simply means the same average density as water.
Putting the object under water will still allow it to release gas
which will rise to the surface. *In spite of the propane being higher
density than air, some will diffuse to higher than the transom and
then will sink into the bilge, all basic physics. *The hazard to my
boat from this canister was orders of magnitude greater than the
hazard to any other boat from an empty canister.

Stop digging. *It's laughable to say a small cannister of slowly leaking
propane bobbing in the sea will blow up your boat.
A mere foot away from the canister the gas will be too dilute to
combust.
A fart is orders of magnitude more likely to ignite than any measure of
gas that gets to your bilge.
You have no certitude here.
Just nav hazard creation.

You do not have much experience with this sort of thing it seems. Do
NOT try it. Combustibility is not a simple matter of concentration
because 100% propane will not ignite whereas if you dilute it, the
probability of ignition goes waaaaay up. At higher values it goes
down again. Being heavier than air is the major danger to boats
because it settles to the lowest point where it can reach a higher
density than it would be at deck height.
The same is true to a lesser degree of gasoline vapors. Ever seen
someone throw a lit cigarette into a bucket of gas, nothing happens
(nearly 100% concentration) whereas if he held the cig above the
container...............This is why boats have bilge blowers.

On Jun 14, 5:33*pm, Frogwatch wrote:
On Jun 14, 5:25*pm, Boating All Out wrote:



In article 42a60c43-00c3-450a-9e7a-
,
says...

"neutral Buoyancy" simply means the same average density as water.
Putting the object under water will still allow it to release gas
which will rise to the surface. *In spite of the propane being higher
density than air, some will diffuse to higher than the transom and
then will sink into the bilge, all basic physics. *The hazard to my
boat from this canister was orders of magnitude greater than the
hazard to any other boat from an empty canister.

Stop digging. *It's laughable to say a small cannister of slowly leaking
propane bobbing in the sea will blow up your boat.
A mere foot away from the canister the gas will be too dilute to
combust.
A fart is orders of magnitude more likely to ignite than any measure of
gas that gets to your bilge.
You have no certitude here.
Just nav hazard creation.

You do not have much experience with this sort of thing it seems. *Do
NOT try it. *Combustibility is not a simple matter of concentration
because 100% propane will not ignite whereas if you dilute it, the
probability of ignition goes waaaaay up. *At higher values it goes
down again. *Being heavier than air is the major danger to boats
because it settles to the lowest point where it can reach a higher
density than it would be at deck height.
The same is true to a lesser degree of gasoline vapors. *Ever seen
someone throw a lit cigarette into a bucket of gas, nothing happens
(nearly 100% concentration) whereas if he held the cig above the
container...............This is why boats have bilge blowers.

BTW, never store a propane cylinder below deck or in the cabin even if
it is "empty". I do not allow them to stay on my boat when I am not
aboard and when aboard I keep them in a mesh bag off the stern.

On Tue, 14 Jun 2011 14:33:42 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch
wrote:

On Jun 14, 5:25*pm, Boating All Out wrote:
In article 42a60c43-00c3-450a-9e7a-
,
says...



"neutral Buoyancy" simply means the same average density as water.
Putting the object under water will still allow it to release gas
which will rise to the surface. *In spite of the propane being higher
density than air, some will diffuse to higher than the transom and
then will sink into the bilge, all basic physics. *The hazard to my
boat from this canister was orders of magnitude greater than the
hazard to any other boat from an empty canister.

Stop digging. *It's laughable to say a small cannister of slowly leaking
propane bobbing in the sea will blow up your boat.
A mere foot away from the canister the gas will be too dilute to
combust.
A fart is orders of magnitude more likely to ignite than any measure of
gas that gets to your bilge.
You have no certitude here.
Just nav hazard creation.

You do not have much experience with this sort of thing it seems. Do
NOT try it. Combustibility is not a simple matter of concentration
because 100% propane will not ignite whereas if you dilute it, the
probability of ignition goes waaaaay up. At higher values it goes
down again. Being heavier than air is the major danger to boats
because it settles to the lowest point where it can reach a higher
density than it would be at deck height.
The same is true to a lesser degree of gasoline vapors. Ever seen
someone throw a lit cigarette into a bucket of gas, nothing happens
(nearly 100% concentration) whereas if he held the cig above the
container...............This is why boats have bilge blowers.

You're nuts. There's no way that small amount of propane was a hazard
if it was in the water, down current and bubbling. Maybe 5 minutes
then it would be empty.

On Tue, 14 Jun 2011 14:07:54 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch
wrote:

On Jun 14, 4:53*pm, wrote:
On Tue, 14 Jun 2011 13:22:27 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch



wrote:
On Jun 14, 4:12*pm, Richard Casady
wrote:
On Tue, 14 Jun 2011 12:49:49 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch

wrote:
On Jun 14, 3:38*pm, wrote:
On Tue, 14 Jun 2011 15:07:16 -0400, iBoat wrote:
In article 4789ce48-54a7-4d7a-8dc5-
,
says...

On Jun 14, 2:30 pm, I_am_Tosk wrote:
In article ,
says...

In article ,
says...

On Tue, 14 Jun 2011 10:08:51 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch
wrote:

On Jun 14, 1:05 pm, wrote:
On Tue, 14 Jun 2011 09:04:40 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch

wrote:
Thinking about my wayward dinghy caused me to remember another
wandering object on one of my recent Bahamas trips.
I had finished cooking on the magma grill (spoiled crew demanded warm
mac and cheese) and tried removing the 3/4 full propane canister.
Once removed, it was leaking propane, uh oh. No way this thing is
staying aboard. I cannot leave it on the grill cuz it is choppy and
the grill has to be stowed. After considering various options, I
decided littering was the safest one so I simply threw it overboard
and settled down to do some reading. A bit later, "Thunk, Thunk,
WTF?", I go outside and look down and there's the canister bumping on
the hull so I fished it out with the crab net.
This time, I really heave it far away and go to bed. Yeah, you
guessed right, middle of the night, "Thunk, Thunk", tide had carried
it right back to me.
Realizing I'm gonna have to get serious about this, I pull out the
tide tables and turn on a light eliciting lots of complaints from
sleeping crew but I find the tide will be running out in an hour. So,
I wait up till then and finally get rid of the canister but never did
get back to sleep waiting for the "Thunk, Thunk" again.

Why didn't you just slowly open it up down wind, let it empty, then
tie it up outside overnight?

No wind.

Seems like there would be something. None at all? All night? How about
tying a weight to it and the boat, then opening the valve... it would
sink down current of your boat, bubble along, then you could pull it
back in. I thought boaters were all about creative thinking?

Yeah, take all night to come up with a scheme to get rid of a little
propane gas...... brilliant.

Progressive "thinkers".. How much weight do you suppose it would take to
sink a half full tank? snerk...

--
Team Rowdy Mouse, Banned from the Mall for life!

People on the west coast have no idea how glassy still the Gulf of
Mexico can get. *When holding a leaking canister aboard a boat, time
is critical lest the heavy propane get in your bilge. *Even holding it
over the side leaking could be dangerous. *In this case, safety takes
precedence over not littering.

Let alone the fact that it's heavier than air and will fill a boat cabin
in a heartbeat.

Wow... you guys call yourselves sailors? How about closing up the
boat. Isn't that what you're supposed to do when you gas up? Sheesh...
and I don't know diddly about boats.

Good Gawd, don't be so anal y'all. *I take the grill off the stern
rail because if there is any chop it could fall overboard. *It was a
very still night but chop can happen in a few minutes.
Getting the canister below surface would not stop it from leaking near
my boat and propane could get aboard. *Safety requires you get rid of
it ASAP. *Sinking it even "just below the surface" would require
several pounds of weight and unless I want to sacrifice some wrenches,
I cannot think of anything that would sink it and as I just pointed
out, sinking it does not stop it from leaking. *BTW, physics says
enough to sink it "just below the surface" is the same as "all the way
to the bottom" at least in shallow water.
Hazard to navigation? *WHAT? *In a few hours, it will be empty and you
think a small propane canister is a hazard to nav? *Be serious.

I don't consider it boating, more like cave diving, far too risky, but
they sell hundred mile per hour boats. You would hit with four hundred
times the impact energy at 100 as you would at 5, with, say, a
sailboat. Such a boat might be badly, even fatally, damaged. Less
farfetched, I would not care to pay the possible repairs to the
sterndrive on my starcraft.

Casady

If yer worried about a 16 oz canister, are you more worried about the
logs floating around out there from the rivers?

So, it's ok to toss small stuff like floating metal? Just because
there's one hazard already there, doesn't mean another deliberately
placed is ok.

"neutral Buoyancy" simply means the same average density as water.
Putting the object under water will still allow it to release gas
which will rise to the surface. In spite of the propane being higher
density than air, some will diffuse to higher than the transom and
then will sink into the bilge, all basic physics. The hazard to my
boat from this canister was orders of magnitude greater than the
hazard to any other boat from an empty canister.

16 oz?? Come on. It would take a heck of a lot more, and you said
yourself it was already leaking. I think you just didn't think things
through and panicked.