Cruising and reality
 

On Tue, 20 Apr 2010 10:45:18 -0700, "nom=de=plume"
wrote:

Most cruising sailboats spend more than 90% of their time underway
with the engine running. Either the wind is from the wrong direction,
too weak or too strong.


I thought most sailboats spend more than 90% of their time sitting in a
berth or anchored. :)

Why would you need to run the engine offshore when there's lots of wind?
Seems like it wouldn't help that much. I can understand needing to get away
from a shoreline, but in the middle of an ocean? If it's really that bad,
wouldn't you want to try and slow the boat? I saw parachutes for this at the
boat show.

The average boat does spend well over 90% of its time at the dock but
I'm talking about percentage of the time *underway*, i.e., not at the
dock or anchored. When trying to get from point A to point B (as
opposed to day sailing), the wind is frequently from an unfavoravle
direction, too weak, or too strong for the boat/crew to handle. As a
result the engine gets used a *lot* more than you might think.

It is also important to understand that the *average* cruising
sailboat does not cross oceans or run offshore for large distance.
Probably less than 1% do that kind of sailing although we see a lot of
them down here in the Caribbean. Many, but not all, of the ocean
crossers look like they've been through a war.

On a different topic, most cruising sailboats do not have a standalone
generator until well up into the mid 40 ft range. Instead they use
the main engine/alternator to charge batteries, etc. This in turn
causes a lot of extra wear and tear, sometimes leading to premature
engine failure. The stories about engine problems on sailboats go on
and on, and in my experience most are true. They are frequently
located in difficult, cramped areas which leads to a lot of deferred
maintenance. This is compounded by the mindset of many, but not all,
sailboat owners to leave well enough alone as long as the engine still
runs (benign neglect). It is rare to find a used sailboat where the
engine and associated drive train are still in top condition.

Cruising and reality
 

"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 20 Apr 2010 10:45:18 -0700, "nom=de=plume"
wrote:

Most cruising sailboats spend more than 90% of their time underway
with the engine running. Either the wind is from the wrong direction,
too weak or too strong.


I thought most sailboats spend more than 90% of their time sitting in a
berth or anchored. :)

Why would you need to run the engine offshore when there's lots of wind?
Seems like it wouldn't help that much. I can understand needing to get
away
from a shoreline, but in the middle of an ocean? If it's really that bad,
wouldn't you want to try and slow the boat? I saw parachutes for this at
the
boat show.

The average boat does spend well over 90% of its time at the dock but
I'm talking about percentage of the time *underway*, i.e., not at the
dock or anchored. When trying to get from point A to point B (as
opposed to day sailing), the wind is frequently from an unfavoravle
direction, too weak, or too strong for the boat/crew to handle. As a
result the engine gets used a *lot* more than you might think.

Ok, but that didn't really answer my question... I imagine it does get used
quite a bit, but it doesn't seem logical to try and make progress against
high winds when sails are available. I suppose if they were damaged, then
sure.

It is also important to understand that the *average* cruising
sailboat does not cross oceans or run offshore for large distance.
Probably less than 1% do that kind of sailing although we see a lot of
them down here in the Caribbean. Many, but not all, of the ocean
crossers look like they've been through a war.

Right... I get that. I'm thinking most of our time away would be cruising in
the Sea of Cortez and perhaps down further in Mex.

On a different topic, most cruising sailboats do not have a standalone
generator until well up into the mid 40 ft range. Instead they use
the main engine/alternator to charge batteries, etc. This in turn
causes a lot of extra wear and tear, sometimes leading to premature
engine failure. The stories about engine problems on sailboats go on
and on, and in my experience most are true. They are frequently
located in difficult, cramped areas which leads to a lot of deferred
maintenance. This is compounded by the mindset of many, but not all,
sailboat owners to leave well enough alone as long as the engine still
runs (benign neglect). It is rare to find a used sailboat where the
engine and associated drive train are still in top condition.

We were looking at something similar to this boat:

http://tinyurl.com/yyoc997

It has a "genset" which I think is like a distinct generator. It's a 42'.

I think maintenance is certainly important. I take my car in regularly. Of
course, if you're away from civilization for a long period, you'd have to
check it yourself and be thorough. I suppose some things are not really
fixable without a boat shop, but that's true for cars too.

Why would charging a battery cause engine problems? We were talking to a
diesel mechanic a few weeks ago (interviewing him in case we found a boat
and wanted his opinion about an engine), and he said that diesels like to be
run hard, so I could see if you're just charging batteries without really
"using" the engine to move the boat that wouldn't be running it hard. But,
why couldn't you just put the thing in gear and push the boat while you
charge the batteries? That would seem to solve the problem.


--
Nom=de=Plume

Cruising and reality
 

nom=de=plume wrote:
wrote in message
...

On Mon, 19 Apr 2010 20:46:58 -0700, "nom=de=plume"
wrote:


Seems like unless you're close to shore, you really don't need a lot of
engine power. Maybe in a storm, but wouldn't the concern be running the
engine without intake water or running out of fuel if you run it too long?
I'm mean that's why it's a sailboat... to sail.

There are two times when you need power on a sailboat: Bad weather and
good weather.

Most cruising sailboats spend more than 90% of their time underway
with the engine running. Either the wind is from the wrong direction,
too weak or too strong.


I thought most sailboats spend more than 90% of their time sitting in a
berth or anchored. :)

Why would you need to run the engine offshore when there's lots of wind?
Seems like it wouldn't help that much. I can understand needing to get away
from a shoreline, but in the middle of an ocean? If it's really that bad,
wouldn't you want to try and slow the boat? I saw parachutes for this at the
boat show.


Did you see sea anchors?

Cruising and reality
 

On Apr 20, 5:18*pm, Larry wrote:
nom=de=plume wrote:
*wrote in message
.. .

On Mon, 19 Apr 2010 20:46:58 -0700, "nom=de=plume"
*wrote:

Seems like unless you're close to shore, you really don't need a lot of
engine power. Maybe in a storm, but wouldn't the concern be running the
engine without intake water or running out of fuel if you run it too long?
I'm mean that's why it's a sailboat... to sail.

There are two times when you need power on a sailboat: Bad weather and
good weather.

Most cruising sailboats spend more than 90% of their time underway
with the engine running. *Either the wind is from the wrong direction,
too weak or too strong.

I thought most sailboats spend more than 90% of their time sitting in a
berth or anchored. :)

Why would you need to run the engine offshore when there's lots of wind?
Seems like it wouldn't help that much. I can understand needing to get away
from a shoreline, but in the middle of an ocean? If it's really that bad,
wouldn't you want to try and slow the boat? I saw parachutes for this at the
boat show.

Did you see sea anchors?

Diesels do like to be run hard. A big problem with sailboat diesels
is they often do not get hot enough to get carbon out. They need to
be run at high rpm for a few hours a month. Fortunately, the engine
on my 28' boat is easy to access and I have actually crawled in the
compartment with the engine (being a caver, small spaces do not bother
me).
One change I made that I really like was to put an electric fuel pump
in line with the mechanical fuel pump. This makes "bleeding" the
engine very easy. Sooner or later, someone will have to do this while
cruising (after you run out of fuel once) and it sure helps to have
that electric pump.
I have taken my sails completely down in a thunderstorm and run under
bare poles with the engine running in reverse to make her go very
slow.
Sometimes, close to a lee shore in strong wind, the safest thing to do
is to take the sails down and use the engine to get further out.

Cruising and reality
 

On Tue, 20 Apr 2010 16:47:38 -0700, "nom=de=plume"
wrote:

We were looking at something similar to this boat:

http://tinyurl.com/yyoc997

It has a "genset" which I think is like a distinct generator. It's a 42'.

The Valiant 42 has a good reputation for sea worthiness and quality
construction. It does have a 5 kw Westerbeke generator, somewhat
unusual for a 42 footer but very desirable for serious cruising. It
adds significant weight of course and takes up valuable space but
certainly a good trade off for a boat that will be anchored out in
remote locations. For someone who mostly cruises marina to marina, a
genset is less useful.

The used boat market is extremely soft these days and all asking
prices should be regarded as *very* negotiable.

I think maintenance is certainly important. I take my car in regularly. Of
course, if you're away from civilization for a long period, you'd have to
check it yourself and be thorough. I suppose some things are not really
fixable without a boat shop, but that's true for cars too.

It is much more difficult and expensive to get routine maintenance
done on a boat. The best mechanics are usually booked up and the 2nd
stringers can be dangerously unreliable. If you find a good one,
treat them well and *never* quibble price.

Why would charging a battery cause engine problems? We were talking to a
diesel mechanic a few weeks ago (interviewing him in case we found a boat
and wanted his opinion about an engine), and he said that diesels like to be
run hard, so I could see if you're just charging batteries without really
"using" the engine to move the boat that wouldn't be running it hard. But,
why couldn't you just put the thing in gear and push the boat while you
charge the batteries? That would seem to solve the problem.

The mechanic you talked to is right. Running a diesel just to charge
batteries is not enough load to bring the engine up to proper internal
operating temperatures. The eventual result is carbon deposits,
stuck piston rings and/or turbo bearings, and premature engine
failure. This is obviously not a problem when underway but a big
issue when anchored out. Even gensets are susceptible to this kind of
damage if lightly loaded for extended periods of time. We frequently
turn on the heat or air conditioning when running the generator just
to keep it at the proper load level. That burns extra fuel but is
much cheaper than an engine rebuild.

Cruising and reality
 

On Tue, 20 Apr 2010 17:40:09 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch
wrote:

Sometimes, close to a lee shore in strong wind, the safest thing to do
is to take the sails down and use the engine to get further out.

I prefer to leave up a deeply reefed mainsail to maintain directional
control and assist with keeping the bow into the wind. Without that
the wind will pick up the bow on every wavetop and push it back to
leeward.

Cruising and reality
 

"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 20 Apr 2010 16:47:38 -0700, "nom=de=plume"
wrote:

We were looking at something similar to this boat:

http://tinyurl.com/yyoc997

It has a "genset" which I think is like a distinct generator. It's a 42'.

The Valiant 42 has a good reputation for sea worthiness and quality
construction. It does have a 5 kw Westerbeke generator, somewhat
unusual for a 42 footer but very desirable for serious cruising. It
adds significant weight of course and takes up valuable space but
certainly a good trade off for a boat that will be anchored out in
remote locations. For someone who mostly cruises marina to marina, a
genset is less useful.

I don' t know if all Valiant 42s have it... I just stumbled on this one when
you mentioned it. We're really looking for something on the west coast, but
I guess we'd consider somewhere else. It just presents different, perhaps
insurmountable problems.

The used boat market is extremely soft these days and all asking
prices should be regarded as *very* negotiable.

That's for sure. We just mentioned to a Beneteau dealer that we were in the
market and he practically followed us home. :)


I think maintenance is certainly important. I take my car in regularly. Of
course, if you're away from civilization for a long period, you'd have to
check it yourself and be thorough. I suppose some things are not really
fixable without a boat shop, but that's true for cars too.

It is much more difficult and expensive to get routine maintenance
done on a boat. The best mechanics are usually booked up and the 2nd
stringers can be dangerously unreliable. If you find a good one,
treat them well and *never* quibble price.

Definitely. I bring my car mechanic food when I take it in for service. :)


Why would charging a battery cause engine problems? We were talking to a
diesel mechanic a few weeks ago (interviewing him in case we found a boat
and wanted his opinion about an engine), and he said that diesels like to
be
run hard, so I could see if you're just charging batteries without really
"using" the engine to move the boat that wouldn't be running it hard. But,
why couldn't you just put the thing in gear and push the boat while you
charge the batteries? That would seem to solve the problem.

The mechanic you talked to is right. Running a diesel just to charge
batteries is not enough load to bring the engine up to proper internal
operating temperatures. The eventual result is carbon deposits,
stuck piston rings and/or turbo bearings, and premature engine
failure. This is obviously not a problem when underway but a big
issue when anchored out. Even gensets are susceptible to this kind of
damage if lightly loaded for extended periods of time. We frequently
turn on the heat or air conditioning when running the generator just
to keep it at the proper load level. That burns extra fuel but is
much cheaper than an engine rebuild.

Well, that's good... headed in the right direction, and we got his card.

--
Nom=de=Plume

Cruising and reality
 

"Larry" wrote in message
...
nom=de=plume wrote:
wrote in message
...

On Mon, 19 Apr 2010 20:46:58 -0700, "nom=de=plume"
wrote:


Seems like unless you're close to shore, you really don't need a lot of
engine power. Maybe in a storm, but wouldn't the concern be running the
engine without intake water or running out of fuel if you run it too
long?
I'm mean that's why it's a sailboat... to sail.

There are two times when you need power on a sailboat: Bad weather and
good weather.

Most cruising sailboats spend more than 90% of their time underway
with the engine running. Either the wind is from the wrong direction,
too weak or too strong.


I thought most sailboats spend more than 90% of their time sitting in a
berth or anchored. :)

Why would you need to run the engine offshore when there's lots of wind?
Seems like it wouldn't help that much. I can understand needing to get
away
from a shoreline, but in the middle of an ocean? If it's really that bad,
wouldn't you want to try and slow the boat? I saw parachutes for this at
the
boat show.


Did you see sea anchors?


Didn't see them, but certainly heard about them.

--
Nom=de=Plume

Cruising and reality
 

"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 20 Apr 2010 17:40:09 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch
wrote:

Sometimes, close to a lee shore in strong wind, the safest thing to do
is to take the sails down and use the engine to get further out.

I prefer to leave up a deeply reefed mainsail to maintain directional
control and assist with keeping the bow into the wind. Without that
the wind will pick up the bow on every wavetop and push it back to
leeward.


I'm hoping that this stuff is going to be covered when I take the lessons.

--
Nom=de=Plume

Cruising and reality
 

On Apr 21, 12:58*am, wrote:
On Tue, 20 Apr 2010 18:57:53 -0400, Wayne.B





wrote:
On Tue, 20 Apr 2010 10:45:18 -0700, "nom=de=plume"
wrote:

Most cruising sailboats spend more than 90% of their time underway
with the engine running. *Either the wind is from the wrong direction,
too weak or too strong.

I thought most sailboats spend more than 90% of their time sitting in a
berth or anchored. :)

Why would you need to run the engine offshore when there's lots of wind?
Seems like it wouldn't help that much. I can understand needing to get away
from a shoreline, but in the middle of an ocean? If it's really that bad,
wouldn't you want to try and slow the boat? I saw parachutes for this at the
boat show.

The average boat does spend well over 90% of its time at the dock but
I'm talking about percentage of the time *underway*, i.e., not at the
dock or anchored. *When trying to get from point A to point B (as
opposed to day sailing), the wind is frequently from an unfavoravle
direction, too weak, or too strong for the boat/crew to handle. *As a
result the engine gets used a *lot* more than you might think.

It is also important to understand that the *average* cruising
sailboat does not cross oceans or run offshore for large distance.
Probably less than 1% do that kind of sailing although we see a lot of
them down here in the Caribbean. *Many, but not all, of the ocean
crossers look like they've been through a war.

On a different topic, most cruising sailboats do not have a standalone
generator until well up into the mid 40 ft range. * Instead they use
the main engine/alternator to charge batteries, etc. *This in turn
causes a lot of extra wear and tear, sometimes leading to premature
engine failure. *The stories about engine problems on sailboats go on
and on, and in my experience most are true. * They are frequently
located in difficult, cramped areas which leads to a lot of deferred
maintenance. * This is compounded by the mindset of many, but not all,
sailboat owners to leave well enough alone as long as the engine still
runs (benign neglect). *It is rare to find a used sailboat where the
engine and associated drive train are still in top condition.

I knew some guys in the 70s who were pure sail and went to the Yucatan
fairly regularly from Ft Lauderdale. They came back heavier than they
went... if you get my drift *;-)- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I imagine they were 'deeply reefed' too!