"Frogwatch" wrote in message
...
On Apr 14, 3:36 pm, hk wrote:
On 4/14/10 3:25 PM, nom=de=plume wrote:



My friend is trying to convince me to go halfs with him on a boat...
he's
talking about either an Island Packet, which I've seen before, or
possibly a
Valiant, which I haven't seen. The "plan" that we've been talking about
is
getting something in the mid- to low-40 foot range, berthing it on the
bay
(probably Sausalito, assuming we could find a suitable place), and then
taking it down to Mexico a year from next October (which is the supposed
"weather window" for travelling south). The approximate cost for each of
us
would be in the $150K to $200K range, perhaps some wiggle room,
depending
upon how new the boat would be and what needs to get retrofitted.

My friend wants to get something made in the US... I guess it's easier
to
have it Federally registered. And, we both like the idea of buying
American
if possible.

Right now, there's another couple that would be putting in sweat and
time
equity (but limited cash), so that would give us a crew of four for
Mexico.
I'm probably the most junior as far as sailing experience goes... just
the
Hobie 18 in my distant past. I'd probably take some classes with Sal,
because we could probably both use a refresher.

We're thinking if we get the boat in the next couple of months, so we'd
have
a good long time to get really familiar with how it sails and how we
sail
together (we've sailed locally a few times with no conflicts). The guys
are
best buddies, so that's not an issue.

So, we're going to meet up at the sail show and see what looks
interesting.
I mentioned Catalina, since I've heard the name, but apparently they're
not
quite up to the same quality standards. Is there another US-built make
in
the same class as the IP or Val? Anything else a relative novice should
consider beyond the interpersonal/relationship stuff (we're all pretty
compatible... travelled with each other lots... and we're all pretty
independent). My main concern is can I pull my own weight on the boat,
but I
guess most of that can be figured out in sailing classes and sailing on
whatever we get).

The older Tartans, Pacific Seacrafts, et cetera.

--http://tinyurl.com/ykxp2ym

I am not sure Valiants are still being made. How about Mason?
Morgan is good (not the Outisland series) but maybe not as good as
IP. Pearson is about in line with Morgan. Cal is supposed to be
good. S2 are good and they did make a 36
No Catalina, no Hunter, No Irwin, no Macgregor, no O'Day,
Only a year to refit a boat that size, only if you are willing to pay
a lot and it is newer.


Thanks for the list... it would definitely be newer vs. older, but I don't
think brand new. Still, a couple of years old if it's a good quality boat
seems like it shouldn't have too many problems. I don't know what equipment
we would need to add... radar maybe? Not even sure that's needed. Mason
sounds interesting. Are Cals being made?
--
Nom=de=Plume

"nom=de=plume" wrote in message
...
"Frogwatch" wrote in message
...
On Apr 14, 3:36 pm, hk wrote:
On 4/14/10 3:25 PM, nom=de=plume wrote:



My friend is trying to convince me to go halfs with him on a boat...
he's
talking about either an Island Packet, which I've seen before, or
possibly a
Valiant, which I haven't seen. The "plan" that we've been talking about
is
getting something in the mid- to low-40 foot range, berthing it on the
bay
(probably Sausalito, assuming we could find a suitable place), and then
taking it down to Mexico a year from next October (which is the
supposed
"weather window" for travelling south). The approximate cost for each
of us
would be in the $150K to $200K range, perhaps some wiggle room,
depending
upon how new the boat would be and what needs to get retrofitted.

My friend wants to get something made in the US... I guess it's easier
to
have it Federally registered. And, we both like the idea of buying
American
if possible.

Right now, there's another couple that would be putting in sweat and
time
equity (but limited cash), so that would give us a crew of four for
Mexico.
I'm probably the most junior as far as sailing experience goes... just
the
Hobie 18 in my distant past. I'd probably take some classes with Sal,
because we could probably both use a refresher.

We're thinking if we get the boat in the next couple of months, so we'd
have
a good long time to get really familiar with how it sails and how we
sail
together (we've sailed locally a few times with no conflicts). The guys
are
best buddies, so that's not an issue.

So, we're going to meet up at the sail show and see what looks
interesting.
I mentioned Catalina, since I've heard the name, but apparently they're
not
quite up to the same quality standards. Is there another US-built make
in
the same class as the IP or Val? Anything else a relative novice should
consider beyond the interpersonal/relationship stuff (we're all pretty
compatible... travelled with each other lots... and we're all pretty
independent). My main concern is can I pull my own weight on the boat,
but I
guess most of that can be figured out in sailing classes and sailing on
whatever we get).

The older Tartans, Pacific Seacrafts, et cetera.

--http://tinyurl.com/ykxp2ym

I am not sure Valiants are still being made. How about Mason?
Morgan is good (not the Outisland series) but maybe not as good as
IP. Pearson is about in line with Morgan. Cal is supposed to be
good. S2 are good and they did make a 36
No Catalina, no Hunter, No Irwin, no Macgregor, no O'Day,
Only a year to refit a boat that size, only if you are willing to pay
a lot and it is newer.


Thanks for the list... it would definitely be newer vs. older, but I don't
think brand new. Still, a couple of years old if it's a good quality boat
seems like it shouldn't have too many problems. I don't know what
equipment we would need to add... radar maybe? Not even sure that's
needed. Mason sounds interesting. Are Cals being made?
--
Nom=de=Plume


A partnership destined to end in hell. Not necessarily because of the
partners, but because they do not know what they want or are getting in to.
Join one of the San Francisco Bay yacht clubs. There are a bunch, and some
are very reasonable. The St. Francis and Corinthian does not do not meet
that requirement. The sailors are always looking for a crew. You will need
a crew for most large sailboats. My Father in Law was a founding member of
the Richmond Yacht Club. Do not know what their costs are. Waiting list
for berths, so that does not help. He partnered for a while, but eventually
bought out the partner. He sold his Bermuda 32 as being ketch rigged, was
not easy to sail single handed. He ended up with an Islander 30 Mk II.
Nice boat, good single handed and 25 years ago, there was a large group of
I-30 class racers. You have no idea what a large boat requires, so get some
education. $200k will buy an extremely nice boat these days. Way more than
you even need to sail to The Coral Marina in Ensenada. Or to Hawaii.
Sausalito was $400 to berth 50 years ago for a Hurricane 32, do not know
what the cost is now. Oakland Estuary has lots of resonable berths. Look
at Associates membership.

On Apr 14, 11:48*pm, "Bill McKee" wrote:
"nom=de=plume" wrote in message

...



"Frogwatch" wrote in message
....
On Apr 14, 3:36 pm, hk wrote:
On 4/14/10 3:25 PM, nom=de=plume wrote:

My friend is trying to convince me to go halfs with him on a boat...
he's
talking about either an Island Packet, which I've seen before, or
possibly a
Valiant, which I haven't seen. The "plan" that we've been talking about
is
getting something in the mid- to low-40 foot range, berthing it on the
bay
(probably Sausalito, assuming we could find a suitable place), and then
taking it down to Mexico a year from next October (which is the
supposed
"weather window" for travelling south). The approximate cost for each
of us
would be in the $150K to $200K range, perhaps some wiggle room,
depending
upon how new the boat would be and what needs to get retrofitted.

My friend wants to get something made in the US... I guess it's easier
to
have it Federally registered. And, we both like the idea of buying
American
if possible.

Right now, there's another couple that would be putting in sweat and
time
equity (but limited cash), so that would give us a crew of four for
Mexico.
I'm probably the most junior as far as sailing experience goes... just
the
Hobie 18 in my distant past. I'd probably take some classes with Sal,
because we could probably both use a refresher.

We're thinking if we get the boat in the next couple of months, so we'd
have
a good long time to get really familiar with how it sails and how we
sail
together (we've sailed locally a few times with no conflicts). The guys
are
best buddies, so that's not an issue.

So, we're going to meet up at the sail show and see what looks
interesting.
I mentioned Catalina, since I've heard the name, but apparently they're
not
quite up to the same quality standards. Is there another US-built make
in
the same class as the IP or Val? Anything else a relative novice should
consider beyond the interpersonal/relationship stuff (we're all pretty
compatible... travelled with each other lots... and we're all pretty
independent). My main concern is can I pull my own weight on the boat,
but I
guess most of that can be figured out in sailing classes and sailing on
whatever we get).

The older Tartans, Pacific Seacrafts, et cetera.

--http://tinyurl.com/ykxp2ym

I am not sure Valiants are still being made. *How about Mason?
Morgan is good (not the Outisland series) but maybe not as good as
IP. *Pearson is about in line with Morgan. *Cal is supposed to be
good. S2 are good and they did make a 36
No Catalina, no Hunter, No Irwin, no Macgregor, no O'Day,
Only a year to refit a boat that size, only if you are willing to pay
a lot and it is newer.

Thanks for the list... it would definitely be newer vs. older, but I don't
think brand new. Still, a couple of years old if it's a good quality boat
seems like it shouldn't have too many problems. I don't know what
equipment we would need to add... radar maybe? Not even sure that's
needed. Mason sounds interesting. Are Cals being made?
--
Nom=de=Plume

A partnership destined to end in hell. *Not necessarily because of the
partners, but because they do not know what they want or are getting in to.
Join one of the San Francisco Bay yacht clubs. *There are a bunch, and some
are very reasonable. *The St. Francis and Corinthian does not do not meet
that requirement. *The sailors are always looking for a crew. *You will need
a crew for most large sailboats. *My Father in Law was a founding member of
the Richmond Yacht Club. *Do not know what their costs are. *Waiting list
for berths, so that does not help. *He partnered for a while, but eventually
bought out the partner. *He sold his Bermuda 32 as being ketch rigged, was
not easy to sail single handed. *He ended up with an Islander 30 Mk II.
Nice boat, good single handed and 25 years ago, there was a large group of
I-30 class racers. *You have no idea what a large boat requires, so get some
education. *$200k will buy an extremely nice boat these days. *Way more than
you even need to sail to The Coral Marina in Ensenada. *Or to Hawaii.
Sausalito was $400 to berth 50 years ago for a Hurricane 32, do not know
what the cost is now. *Oakland Estuary has lots of resonable berths. *Look
at Associates membership.

Wayne is correct, the cost of ownership is really so high that I hide
the costs and destroy receipts so neither my wife nor I will know. If
I actually sat down and added it up, I'd sink her and walk away. Then
you have people who value appearance over safety wanting to spend
money on getting the topsides re-painted vs getting those questionable
thru-hull fittings replaced. I tend to be the opposite completely
devaluing appearance and obsessing over safety. Some will demand the
best sails while you think the old saild are still very good.
Sailing performance fanatics can bankrupt you thinking they have to
have all carbon fiber spars and the best Spectra lines.
OTOH, being on a small boat with someone will tell you if the
relationship will last. My first date with my wife was on a canoe
trip where it rained for 48 hours and the river flooded and we are
still married 30 years later. Sailing with her though is an ordeal.
For that price, you can get a used F31 trailerable tri so you avoid
slip fees and can trailer her back from Mexico. Sure it is spartan
inside but you sure go fast. The F31 by Farrier is really a good boat
and I think they now make an F32.

"Frogwatch" wrote in message
...
On Apr 14, 11:48 pm, "Bill McKee" wrote:
"nom=de=plume" wrote in message

...



"Frogwatch" wrote in message
...
On Apr 14, 3:36 pm, hk wrote:
On 4/14/10 3:25 PM, nom=de=plume wrote:

My friend is trying to convince me to go halfs with him on a boat...
he's
talking about either an Island Packet, which I've seen before, or
possibly a
Valiant, which I haven't seen. The "plan" that we've been talking
about
is
getting something in the mid- to low-40 foot range, berthing it on
the
bay
(probably Sausalito, assuming we could find a suitable place), and
then
taking it down to Mexico a year from next October (which is the
supposed
"weather window" for travelling south). The approximate cost for each
of us
would be in the $150K to $200K range, perhaps some wiggle room,
depending
upon how new the boat would be and what needs to get retrofitted.

My friend wants to get something made in the US... I guess it's
easier
to
have it Federally registered. And, we both like the idea of buying
American
if possible.

Right now, there's another couple that would be putting in sweat and
time
equity (but limited cash), so that would give us a crew of four for
Mexico.
I'm probably the most junior as far as sailing experience goes...
just
the
Hobie 18 in my distant past. I'd probably take some classes with Sal,
because we could probably both use a refresher.

We're thinking if we get the boat in the next couple of months, so
we'd
have
a good long time to get really familiar with how it sails and how we
sail
together (we've sailed locally a few times with no conflicts). The
guys
are
best buddies, so that's not an issue.

So, we're going to meet up at the sail show and see what looks
interesting.
I mentioned Catalina, since I've heard the name, but apparently
they're
not
quite up to the same quality standards. Is there another US-built
make
in
the same class as the IP or Val? Anything else a relative novice
should
consider beyond the interpersonal/relationship stuff (we're all
pretty
compatible... travelled with each other lots... and we're all pretty
independent). My main concern is can I pull my own weight on the
boat,
but I
guess most of that can be figured out in sailing classes and sailing
on
whatever we get).

The older Tartans, Pacific Seacrafts, et cetera.

--http://tinyurl.com/ykxp2ym

I am not sure Valiants are still being made. How about Mason?
Morgan is good (not the Outisland series) but maybe not as good as
IP. Pearson is about in line with Morgan. Cal is supposed to be
good. S2 are good and they did make a 36
No Catalina, no Hunter, No Irwin, no Macgregor, no O'Day,
Only a year to refit a boat that size, only if you are willing to pay
a lot and it is newer.

Thanks for the list... it would definitely be newer vs. older, but I
don't
think brand new. Still, a couple of years old if it's a good quality
boat
seems like it shouldn't have too many problems. I don't know what
equipment we would need to add... radar maybe? Not even sure that's
needed. Mason sounds interesting. Are Cals being made?
--
Nom=de=Plume

A partnership destined to end in hell. Not necessarily because of the
partners, but because they do not know what they want or are getting in
to.
Join one of the San Francisco Bay yacht clubs. There are a bunch, and some
are very reasonable. The St. Francis and Corinthian does not do not meet
that requirement. The sailors are always looking for a crew. You will need
a crew for most large sailboats. My Father in Law was a founding member of
the Richmond Yacht Club. Do not know what their costs are. Waiting list
for berths, so that does not help. He partnered for a while, but
eventually
bought out the partner. He sold his Bermuda 32 as being ketch rigged, was
not easy to sail single handed. He ended up with an Islander 30 Mk II.
Nice boat, good single handed and 25 years ago, there was a large group of
I-30 class racers. You have no idea what a large boat requires, so get
some
education. $200k will buy an extremely nice boat these days. Way more than
you even need to sail to The Coral Marina in Ensenada. Or to Hawaii.
Sausalito was $400 to berth 50 years ago for a Hurricane 32, do not know
what the cost is now. Oakland Estuary has lots of resonable berths. Look
at Associates membership.

Wayne is correct, the cost of ownership is really so high that I hide
the costs and destroy receipts so neither my wife nor I will know. If
I actually sat down and added it up, I'd sink her and walk away. Then
you have people who value appearance over safety wanting to spend
money on getting the topsides re-painted vs getting those questionable
thru-hull fittings replaced. I tend to be the opposite completely
devaluing appearance and obsessing over safety. Some will demand the
best sails while you think the old saild are still very good.
Sailing performance fanatics can bankrupt you thinking they have to
have all carbon fiber spars and the best Spectra lines.
OTOH, being on a small boat with someone will tell you if the
relationship will last. My first date with my wife was on a canoe
trip where it rained for 48 hours and the river flooded and we are
still married 30 years later. Sailing with her though is an ordeal.
For that price, you can get a used F31 trailerable tri so you avoid
slip fees and can trailer her back from Mexico. Sure it is spartan
inside but you sure go fast. The F31 by Farrier is really a good boat
and I think they now make an F32.


Reply: That's funny. I'm sure you don't actually hide the costs/burn the
receipts.

Interesting points about priorities... thanks. I think I'm more in space of
it looking good vs. what's actually needed, but the boys rule on seaworthy
qualities.

Perhaps we should live about my other friend's boat in Santa Cruz for a
week. It's tiny in comparison to what we're looking into for ourselves.
Also, SC is a nice place to visit. I guess I was replying to your email
about the multiple hulls, not Bill's... read them both before I replied.

--
Nom=de=Plume

On Apr 15, 2:33*am, "nom=de=plume" wrote:
"Frogwatch" wrote in message

...
On Apr 14, 11:48 pm, "Bill McKee" wrote:



"nom=de=plume" wrote in message

...

"Frogwatch" wrote in message
....
On Apr 14, 3:36 pm, hk wrote:
On 4/14/10 3:25 PM, nom=de=plume wrote:

My friend is trying to convince me to go halfs with him on a boat....
he's
talking about either an Island Packet, which I've seen before, or
possibly a
Valiant, which I haven't seen. The "plan" that we've been talking
about
is
getting something in the mid- to low-40 foot range, berthing it on
the
bay
(probably Sausalito, assuming we could find a suitable place), and
then
taking it down to Mexico a year from next October (which is the
supposed
"weather window" for travelling south). The approximate cost for each
of us
would be in the $150K to $200K range, perhaps some wiggle room,
depending
upon how new the boat would be and what needs to get retrofitted.

My friend wants to get something made in the US... I guess it's
easier
to
have it Federally registered. And, we both like the idea of buying
American
if possible.

Right now, there's another couple that would be putting in sweat and
time
equity (but limited cash), so that would give us a crew of four for
Mexico.
I'm probably the most junior as far as sailing experience goes...
just
the
Hobie 18 in my distant past. I'd probably take some classes with Sal,
because we could probably both use a refresher.

We're thinking if we get the boat in the next couple of months, so
we'd
have
a good long time to get really familiar with how it sails and how we
sail
together (we've sailed locally a few times with no conflicts). The
guys
are
best buddies, so that's not an issue.

So, we're going to meet up at the sail show and see what looks
interesting.
I mentioned Catalina, since I've heard the name, but apparently
they're
not
quite up to the same quality standards. Is there another US-built
make
in
the same class as the IP or Val? Anything else a relative novice
should
consider beyond the interpersonal/relationship stuff (we're all
pretty
compatible... travelled with each other lots... and we're all pretty
independent). My main concern is can I pull my own weight on the
boat,
but I
guess most of that can be figured out in sailing classes and sailing
on
whatever we get).

The older Tartans, Pacific Seacrafts, et cetera.

--http://tinyurl.com/ykxp2ym

I am not sure Valiants are still being made. How about Mason?
Morgan is good (not the Outisland series) but maybe not as good as
IP. Pearson is about in line with Morgan. Cal is supposed to be
good. S2 are good and they did make a 36
No Catalina, no Hunter, No Irwin, no Macgregor, no O'Day,
Only a year to refit a boat that size, only if you are willing to pay
a lot and it is newer.

Thanks for the list... it would definitely be newer vs. older, but I
don't
think brand new. Still, a couple of years old if it's a good quality
boat
seems like it shouldn't have too many problems. I don't know what
equipment we would need to add... radar maybe? Not even sure that's
needed. Mason sounds interesting. Are Cals being made?
--
Nom=de=Plume

A partnership destined to end in hell. Not necessarily because of the
partners, but because they do not know what they want or are getting in
to.
Join one of the San Francisco Bay yacht clubs. There are a bunch, and some
are very reasonable. The St. Francis and Corinthian does not do not meet
that requirement. The sailors are always looking for a crew. You will need
a crew for most large sailboats. My Father in Law was a founding member of
the Richmond Yacht Club. Do not know what their costs are. Waiting list
for berths, so that does not help. He partnered for a while, but
eventually
bought out the partner. He sold his Bermuda 32 as being ketch rigged, was
not easy to sail single handed. He ended up with an Islander 30 Mk II.
Nice boat, good single handed and 25 years ago, there was a large group of
I-30 class racers. You have no idea what a large boat requires, so get
some
education. $200k will buy an extremely nice boat these days. Way more than
you even need to sail to The Coral Marina in Ensenada. Or to Hawaii.
Sausalito was $400 to berth 50 years ago for a Hurricane 32, do not know
what the cost is now. Oakland Estuary has lots of resonable berths. Look
at Associates membership.

Wayne is correct, the cost of ownership is really so high that I hide
the costs and destroy receipts so neither my wife nor I will know. *If
I actually sat down and added it up, I'd sink her and walk away. *Then
you have people who value appearance over safety wanting to spend
money on getting the topsides re-painted vs getting those questionable
thru-hull fittings replaced. *I tend to be the opposite completely
devaluing appearance and obsessing over safety. *Some will demand the
best sails while you think the old saild are still *very good.
Sailing performance fanatics can bankrupt you thinking they have to
have all carbon fiber spars and the best Spectra lines.
OTOH, being on a small boat with someone will tell you if the
relationship will last. *My first date with my wife was on a canoe
trip where it rained for 48 hours and the river flooded and we are
still married 30 years later. *Sailing with her though is an ordeal.
For that price, you can get a used F31 trailerable tri so you avoid
slip fees and can trailer her back from Mexico. *Sure it is spartan
inside but you sure go fast. *The F31 by Farrier is really a good boat
and I think they now make an F32.

Reply: That's funny. I'm sure you don't actually hide the costs/burn the
receipts.

Interesting points about priorities... thanks. I think I'm more in space of
it looking good vs. what's actually needed, but the boys rule on seaworthy
qualities.

Perhaps we should live about my other friend's boat in Santa Cruz for a
week. It's tiny in comparison to what we're looking into for ourselves.
Also, SC is a nice place to visit. I guess I was replying to your email
about the multiple hulls, not Bill's... read them both before I replied.

--
Nom=de=Plume

Nom:
I sail cheap and so does my wife. Both of us are truly into spartan
adventures that most would find unacceptable. Nevertheless, If I add
up what I spend on sailing each year (my boat was long ago paid for),
we could afford to charter a well outfitted boat anywhere in the world
including air fare for two weeks. For far less money than this trip
from NW Florida to SE Florida to try to get to the Bahamas has cost
me, I could charter a luxury vessel in the Bahamas and not have to
worry about the vessel.
So, give careful consideration to how you will actually use the boat
before you buy. Many people read Cruising World , etc and fall in
love with the image of the lifestyle without realizing the downsides.
Do you really want to lie awake at night worrying that your anchor may
drag? Are you or your partner really up to the gawdawful mess marine
toilets are to fix? It really IS NOT about having a cocktail in the
cockpit watching the sun go down, cruising is mostly either hard or
boring as hell.
Having said all that, I do not know why I am so obsessed with going
places in my own boat except I trust MY boat that I have custom
outfitted my way. I do not know why other people like to spend time
offshore because it is either boring or scary. My reason is that I
find navigation to be a sorta mystical masculine affirmation of the
power of the mind over reality, yes, it is a geek thing. Maybe other
people are just masochists.

Frogwatch wrote:
On Apr 15, 2:33 am, "nom=de=plume" wrote:
"Frogwatch" wrote in message

...
On Apr 14, 11:48 pm, "Bill McKee" wrote:



"nom=de=plume" wrote in message
...
"Frogwatch" wrote in message
...
On Apr 14, 3:36 pm, hk wrote:
On 4/14/10 3:25 PM, nom=de=plume wrote:
My friend is trying to convince me to go halfs with him on a boat...
he's
talking about either an Island Packet, which I've seen before, or
possibly a
Valiant, which I haven't seen. The "plan" that we've been talking
about
is
getting something in the mid- to low-40 foot range, berthing it on
the
bay
(probably Sausalito, assuming we could find a suitable place), and
then
taking it down to Mexico a year from next October (which is the
supposed
"weather window" for travelling south). The approximate cost for each
of us
would be in the $150K to $200K range, perhaps some wiggle room,
depending
upon how new the boat would be and what needs to get retrofitted.
My friend wants to get something made in the US... I guess it's
easier
to
have it Federally registered. And, we both like the idea of buying
American
if possible.
Right now, there's another couple that would be putting in sweat and
time
equity (but limited cash), so that would give us a crew of four for
Mexico.
I'm probably the most junior as far as sailing experience goes...
just
the
Hobie 18 in my distant past. I'd probably take some classes with Sal,
because we could probably both use a refresher.
We're thinking if we get the boat in the next couple of months, so
we'd
have
a good long time to get really familiar with how it sails and how we
sail
together (we've sailed locally a few times with no conflicts). The
guys
are
best buddies, so that's not an issue.
So, we're going to meet up at the sail show and see what looks
interesting.
I mentioned Catalina, since I've heard the name, but apparently
they're
not
quite up to the same quality standards. Is there another US-built
make
in
the same class as the IP or Val? Anything else a relative novice
should
consider beyond the interpersonal/relationship stuff (we're all
pretty
compatible... travelled with each other lots... and we're all pretty
independent). My main concern is can I pull my own weight on the
boat,
but I
guess most of that can be figured out in sailing classes and sailing
on
whatever we get).
The older Tartans, Pacific Seacrafts, et cetera.
--http://tinyurl.com/ykxp2ym
I am not sure Valiants are still being made. How about Mason?
Morgan is good (not the Outisland series) but maybe not as good as
IP. Pearson is about in line with Morgan. Cal is supposed to be
good. S2 are good and they did make a 36
No Catalina, no Hunter, No Irwin, no Macgregor, no O'Day,
Only a year to refit a boat that size, only if you are willing to pay
a lot and it is newer.
Thanks for the list... it would definitely be newer vs. older, but I
don't
think brand new. Still, a couple of years old if it's a good quality
boat
seems like it shouldn't have too many problems. I don't know what
equipment we would need to add... radar maybe? Not even sure that's
needed. Mason sounds interesting. Are Cals being made?
--
Nom=de=Plume
A partnership destined to end in hell. Not necessarily because of the
partners, but because they do not know what they want or are getting in
to.
Join one of the San Francisco Bay yacht clubs. There are a bunch, and some
are very reasonable. The St. Francis and Corinthian does not do not meet
that requirement. The sailors are always looking for a crew. You will need
a crew for most large sailboats. My Father in Law was a founding member of
the Richmond Yacht Club. Do not know what their costs are. Waiting list
for berths, so that does not help. He partnered for a while, but
eventually
bought out the partner. He sold his Bermuda 32 as being ketch rigged, was
not easy to sail single handed. He ended up with an Islander 30 Mk II.
Nice boat, good single handed and 25 years ago, there was a large group of
I-30 class racers. You have no idea what a large boat requires, so get
some
education. $200k will buy an extremely nice boat these days. Way more than
you even need to sail to The Coral Marina in Ensenada. Or to Hawaii.
Sausalito was $400 to berth 50 years ago for a Hurricane 32, do not know
what the cost is now. Oakland Estuary has lots of resonable berths. Look
at Associates membership.
Wayne is correct, the cost of ownership is really so high that I hide
the costs and destroy receipts so neither my wife nor I will know. If
I actually sat down and added it up, I'd sink her and walk away. Then
you have people who value appearance over safety wanting to spend
money on getting the topsides re-painted vs getting those questionable
thru-hull fittings replaced. I tend to be the opposite completely
devaluing appearance and obsessing over safety. Some will demand the
best sails while you think the old saild are still very good.
Sailing performance fanatics can bankrupt you thinking they have to
have all carbon fiber spars and the best Spectra lines.
OTOH, being on a small boat with someone will tell you if the
relationship will last. My first date with my wife was on a canoe
trip where it rained for 48 hours and the river flooded and we are
still married 30 years later. Sailing with her though is an ordeal.
For that price, you can get a used F31 trailerable tri so you avoid
slip fees and can trailer her back from Mexico. Sure it is spartan
inside but you sure go fast. The F31 by Farrier is really a good boat
and I think they now make an F32.

Reply: That's funny. I'm sure you don't actually hide the costs/burn the
receipts.

Interesting points about priorities... thanks. I think I'm more in space of
it looking good vs. what's actually needed, but the boys rule on seaworthy
qualities.

Perhaps we should live about my other friend's boat in Santa Cruz for a
week. It's tiny in comparison to what we're looking into for ourselves.
Also, SC is a nice place to visit. I guess I was replying to your email
about the multiple hulls, not Bill's... read them both before I replied.

--
Nom=de=Plume

Nom:
I sail cheap and so does my wife. Both of us are truly into spartan
adventures that most would find unacceptable. Nevertheless, If I add
up what I spend on sailing each year (my boat was long ago paid for),
we could afford to charter a well outfitted boat anywhere in the world
including air fare for two weeks. For far less money than this trip
from NW Florida to SE Florida to try to get to the Bahamas has cost
me, I could charter a luxury vessel in the Bahamas and not have to
worry about the vessel.
So, give careful consideration to how you will actually use the boat
before you buy. Many people read Cruising World , etc and fall in
love with the image of the lifestyle without realizing the downsides.
Do you really want to lie awake at night worrying that your anchor may
drag? Are you or your partner really up to the gawdawful mess marine
toilets are to fix? It really IS NOT about having a cocktail in the
cockpit watching the sun go down, cruising is mostly either hard or
boring as hell.
Having said all that, I do not know why I am so obsessed with going
places in my own boat except I trust MY boat that I have custom
outfitted my way. I do not know why other people like to spend time
offshore because it is either boring or scary. My reason is that I
find navigation to be a sorta mystical masculine affirmation of the
power of the mind over reality, yes, it is a geek thing. Maybe other
people are just masochists.

She needs to look at something she can sail solo after the "bouys" jump
overboard. Hinkley is a decent sailboat. Some of the older ones have
decent price tags on them.

"anon-e-moose" wrote in message
...
Frogwatch wrote:
On Apr 15, 2:33 am, "nom=de=plume" wrote:
"Frogwatch" wrote in message

...
On Apr 14, 11:48 pm, "Bill McKee" wrote:



"nom=de=plume" wrote in message
...
"Frogwatch" wrote in message
...
On Apr 14, 3:36 pm, hk wrote:
On 4/14/10 3:25 PM, nom=de=plume wrote:
My friend is trying to convince me to go halfs with him on a boat...
he's
talking about either an Island Packet, which I've seen before, or
possibly a
Valiant, which I haven't seen. The "plan" that we've been talking
about
is
getting something in the mid- to low-40 foot range, berthing it on
the
bay
(probably Sausalito, assuming we could find a suitable place), and
then
taking it down to Mexico a year from next October (which is the
supposed
"weather window" for travelling south). The approximate cost for
each
of us
would be in the $150K to $200K range, perhaps some wiggle room,
depending
upon how new the boat would be and what needs to get retrofitted.
My friend wants to get something made in the US... I guess it's
easier
to
have it Federally registered. And, we both like the idea of buying
American
if possible.
Right now, there's another couple that would be putting in sweat and
time
equity (but limited cash), so that would give us a crew of four for
Mexico.
I'm probably the most junior as far as sailing experience goes...
just
the
Hobie 18 in my distant past. I'd probably take some classes with
Sal,
because we could probably both use a refresher.
We're thinking if we get the boat in the next couple of months, so
we'd
have
a good long time to get really familiar with how it sails and how we
sail
together (we've sailed locally a few times with no conflicts). The
guys
are
best buddies, so that's not an issue.
So, we're going to meet up at the sail show and see what looks
interesting.
I mentioned Catalina, since I've heard the name, but apparently
they're
not
quite up to the same quality standards. Is there another US-built
make
in
the same class as the IP or Val? Anything else a relative novice
should
consider beyond the interpersonal/relationship stuff (we're all
pretty
compatible... travelled with each other lots... and we're all pretty
independent). My main concern is can I pull my own weight on the
boat,
but I
guess most of that can be figured out in sailing classes and sailing
on
whatever we get).
The older Tartans, Pacific Seacrafts, et cetera.
--http://tinyurl.com/ykxp2ym
I am not sure Valiants are still being made. How about Mason?
Morgan is good (not the Outisland series) but maybe not as good as
IP. Pearson is about in line with Morgan. Cal is supposed to be
good. S2 are good and they did make a 36
No Catalina, no Hunter, No Irwin, no Macgregor, no O'Day,
Only a year to refit a boat that size, only if you are willing to pay
a lot and it is newer.
Thanks for the list... it would definitely be newer vs. older, but I
don't
think brand new. Still, a couple of years old if it's a good quality
boat
seems like it shouldn't have too many problems. I don't know what
equipment we would need to add... radar maybe? Not even sure that's
needed. Mason sounds interesting. Are Cals being made?
--
Nom=de=Plume
A partnership destined to end in hell. Not necessarily because of the
partners, but because they do not know what they want or are getting in
to.
Join one of the San Francisco Bay yacht clubs. There are a bunch, and
some
are very reasonable. The St. Francis and Corinthian does not do not
meet
that requirement. The sailors are always looking for a crew. You will
need
a crew for most large sailboats. My Father in Law was a founding member
of
the Richmond Yacht Club. Do not know what their costs are. Waiting list
for berths, so that does not help. He partnered for a while, but
eventually
bought out the partner. He sold his Bermuda 32 as being ketch rigged,
was
not easy to sail single handed. He ended up with an Islander 30 Mk II.
Nice boat, good single handed and 25 years ago, there was a large group
of
I-30 class racers. You have no idea what a large boat requires, so get
some
education. $200k will buy an extremely nice boat these days. Way more
than
you even need to sail to The Coral Marina in Ensenada. Or to Hawaii.
Sausalito was $400 to berth 50 years ago for a Hurricane 32, do not
know
what the cost is now. Oakland Estuary has lots of resonable berths.
Look
at Associates membership.
Wayne is correct, the cost of ownership is really so high that I hide
the costs and destroy receipts so neither my wife nor I will know. If
I actually sat down and added it up, I'd sink her and walk away. Then
you have people who value appearance over safety wanting to spend
money on getting the topsides re-painted vs getting those questionable
thru-hull fittings replaced. I tend to be the opposite completely
devaluing appearance and obsessing over safety. Some will demand the
best sails while you think the old saild are still very good.
Sailing performance fanatics can bankrupt you thinking they have to
have all carbon fiber spars and the best Spectra lines.
OTOH, being on a small boat with someone will tell you if the
relationship will last. My first date with my wife was on a canoe
trip where it rained for 48 hours and the river flooded and we are
still married 30 years later. Sailing with her though is an ordeal.
For that price, you can get a used F31 trailerable tri so you avoid
slip fees and can trailer her back from Mexico. Sure it is spartan
inside but you sure go fast. The F31 by Farrier is really a good boat
and I think they now make an F32.

Reply: That's funny. I'm sure you don't actually hide the costs/burn the
receipts.

Interesting points about priorities... thanks. I think I'm more in space
of
it looking good vs. what's actually needed, but the boys rule on
seaworthy
qualities.

Perhaps we should live about my other friend's boat in Santa Cruz for a
week. It's tiny in comparison to what we're looking into for ourselves.
Also, SC is a nice place to visit. I guess I was replying to your email
about the multiple hulls, not Bill's... read them both before I replied.

--
Nom=de=Plume

Nom:
I sail cheap and so does my wife. Both of us are truly into spartan
adventures that most would find unacceptable. Nevertheless, If I add
up what I spend on sailing each year (my boat was long ago paid for),
we could afford to charter a well outfitted boat anywhere in the world
including air fare for two weeks. For far less money than this trip
from NW Florida to SE Florida to try to get to the Bahamas has cost
me, I could charter a luxury vessel in the Bahamas and not have to
worry about the vessel.
So, give careful consideration to how you will actually use the boat
before you buy. Many people read Cruising World , etc and fall in
love with the image of the lifestyle without realizing the downsides.
Do you really want to lie awake at night worrying that your anchor may
drag? Are you or your partner really up to the gawdawful mess marine
toilets are to fix? It really IS NOT about having a cocktail in the
cockpit watching the sun go down, cruising is mostly either hard or
boring as hell.
Having said all that, I do not know why I am so obsessed with going
places in my own boat except I trust MY boat that I have custom
outfitted my way. I do not know why other people like to spend time
offshore because it is either boring or scary. My reason is that I
find navigation to be a sorta mystical masculine affirmation of the
power of the mind over reality, yes, it is a geek thing. Maybe other
people are just masochists.

She needs to look at something she can sail solo after the "bouys" jump
overboard. Hinkley is a decent sailboat. Some of the older ones have
decent price tags on them.


I believe it's spelled buoys. Not interested in "older ones." You would know
that if you could actually read.

--
Nom=de=Plume

"Frogwatch" wrote in message
...
On Apr 15, 2:33 am, "nom=de=plume" wrote:
"Frogwatch" wrote in message

...
On Apr 14, 11:48 pm, "Bill McKee" wrote:



"nom=de=plume" wrote in message

...

"Frogwatch" wrote in message
...
On Apr 14, 3:36 pm, hk wrote:
On 4/14/10 3:25 PM, nom=de=plume wrote:

My friend is trying to convince me to go halfs with him on a
boat...
he's
talking about either an Island Packet, which I've seen before, or
possibly a
Valiant, which I haven't seen. The "plan" that we've been talking
about
is
getting something in the mid- to low-40 foot range, berthing it on
the
bay
(probably Sausalito, assuming we could find a suitable place), and
then
taking it down to Mexico a year from next October (which is the
supposed
"weather window" for travelling south). The approximate cost for
each
of us
would be in the $150K to $200K range, perhaps some wiggle room,
depending
upon how new the boat would be and what needs to get retrofitted.

My friend wants to get something made in the US... I guess it's
easier
to
have it Federally registered. And, we both like the idea of buying
American
if possible.

Right now, there's another couple that would be putting in sweat
and
time
equity (but limited cash), so that would give us a crew of four for
Mexico.
I'm probably the most junior as far as sailing experience goes...
just
the
Hobie 18 in my distant past. I'd probably take some classes with
Sal,
because we could probably both use a refresher.

We're thinking if we get the boat in the next couple of months, so
we'd
have
a good long time to get really familiar with how it sails and how
we
sail
together (we've sailed locally a few times with no conflicts). The
guys
are
best buddies, so that's not an issue.

So, we're going to meet up at the sail show and see what looks
interesting.
I mentioned Catalina, since I've heard the name, but apparently
they're
not
quite up to the same quality standards. Is there another US-built
make
in
the same class as the IP or Val? Anything else a relative novice
should
consider beyond the interpersonal/relationship stuff (we're all
pretty
compatible... travelled with each other lots... and we're all
pretty
independent). My main concern is can I pull my own weight on the
boat,
but I
guess most of that can be figured out in sailing classes and
sailing
on
whatever we get).

The older Tartans, Pacific Seacrafts, et cetera.

--http://tinyurl.com/ykxp2ym

I am not sure Valiants are still being made. How about Mason?
Morgan is good (not the Outisland series) but maybe not as good as
IP. Pearson is about in line with Morgan. Cal is supposed to be
good. S2 are good and they did make a 36
No Catalina, no Hunter, No Irwin, no Macgregor, no O'Day,
Only a year to refit a boat that size, only if you are willing to pay
a lot and it is newer.

Thanks for the list... it would definitely be newer vs. older, but I
don't
think brand new. Still, a couple of years old if it's a good quality
boat
seems like it shouldn't have too many problems. I don't know what
equipment we would need to add... radar maybe? Not even sure that's
needed. Mason sounds interesting. Are Cals being made?
--
Nom=de=Plume

A partnership destined to end in hell. Not necessarily because of the
partners, but because they do not know what they want or are getting in
to.
Join one of the San Francisco Bay yacht clubs. There are a bunch, and
some
are very reasonable. The St. Francis and Corinthian does not do not meet
that requirement. The sailors are always looking for a crew. You will
need
a crew for most large sailboats. My Father in Law was a founding member
of
the Richmond Yacht Club. Do not know what their costs are. Waiting list
for berths, so that does not help. He partnered for a while, but
eventually
bought out the partner. He sold his Bermuda 32 as being ketch rigged,
was
not easy to sail single handed. He ended up with an Islander 30 Mk II.
Nice boat, good single handed and 25 years ago, there was a large group
of
I-30 class racers. You have no idea what a large boat requires, so get
some
education. $200k will buy an extremely nice boat these days. Way more
than
you even need to sail to The Coral Marina in Ensenada. Or to Hawaii.
Sausalito was $400 to berth 50 years ago for a Hurricane 32, do not know
what the cost is now. Oakland Estuary has lots of resonable berths. Look
at Associates membership.

Wayne is correct, the cost of ownership is really so high that I hide
the costs and destroy receipts so neither my wife nor I will know. If
I actually sat down and added it up, I'd sink her and walk away. Then
you have people who value appearance over safety wanting to spend
money on getting the topsides re-painted vs getting those questionable
thru-hull fittings replaced. I tend to be the opposite completely
devaluing appearance and obsessing over safety. Some will demand the
best sails while you think the old saild are still very good.
Sailing performance fanatics can bankrupt you thinking they have to
have all carbon fiber spars and the best Spectra lines.
OTOH, being on a small boat with someone will tell you if the
relationship will last. My first date with my wife was on a canoe
trip where it rained for 48 hours and the river flooded and we are
still married 30 years later. Sailing with her though is an ordeal.
For that price, you can get a used F31 trailerable tri so you avoid
slip fees and can trailer her back from Mexico. Sure it is spartan
inside but you sure go fast. The F31 by Farrier is really a good boat
and I think they now make an F32.

Reply: That's funny. I'm sure you don't actually hide the costs/burn the
receipts.

Interesting points about priorities... thanks. I think I'm more in space
of
it looking good vs. what's actually needed, but the boys rule on seaworthy
qualities.

Perhaps we should live about my other friend's boat in Santa Cruz for a
week. It's tiny in comparison to what we're looking into for ourselves.
Also, SC is a nice place to visit. I guess I was replying to your email
about the multiple hulls, not Bill's... read them both before I replied.

--
Nom=de=Plume

Nom:

Em

I sail cheap and so does my wife. Both of us are truly into spartan
adventures that most would find unacceptable. Nevertheless, If I add
up what I spend on sailing each year (my boat was long ago paid for),
we could afford to charter a well outfitted boat anywhere in the world
including air fare for two weeks. For far less money than this trip
from NW Florida to SE Florida to try to get to the Bahamas has cost
me, I could charter a luxury vessel in the Bahamas and not have to
worry about the vessel.

Nothing wrong with travelling on the cheap... From the research we've done
for outside of the US travel, that would be the norm for the four of us, and
it's what we're planning on. If we're in New York, that's a different story,
but my idea of an ideal vacation is not being around other people... just
hanging with some close friends, getting fish from the local place,
swimming, and exploring interesting places. I'm not sure any of us want
overly spartan (stone knives and bareskins), but unless we're going in to
dinner somewhere once in a while, it would mostly be relaxed attire and
chilling.

So, give careful consideration to how you will actually use the boat
before you buy. Many people read Cruising World , etc and fall in
love with the image of the lifestyle without realizing the downsides.
Do you really want to lie awake at night worrying that your anchor may
drag? Are you or your partner really up to the gawdawful mess marine
toilets are to fix? It really IS NOT about having a cocktail in the
cockpit watching the sun go down, cruising is mostly either hard or
boring as hell.

Interesting perspective. I think it's probably a combination. There must be
times when all the hard work (which I'm sure there's plenty as you say)
seems worth it. We've talked to a few people who did the Baja Ha Ha and then
the Pacific Puddle Jump (as they call going across), and there was
definitely a sense that they had experience what you're talking about. But,
they also did mention the sundowners and local fauna/flora as special times.
Seems like boat competence is a big part of the experience (making it good
or bad) and one's attitude toward "problems."

Having said all that, I do not know why I am so obsessed with going
places in my own boat except I trust MY boat that I have custom
outfitted my way. I do not know why other people like to spend time
offshore because it is either boring or scary. My reason is that I
find navigation to be a sorta mystical masculine affirmation of the
power of the mind over reality, yes, it is a geek thing. Maybe other
people are just masochists.

I think you said it in the first sentence. You have faith in your boat and
how you've outfitted, and your ability to solve problems (I'm surmising
this). Re the offshore... a few have said "there were boring stretches" but
they also said there was more stuff going on offshore than they imagined. A
few said they had some scary moments, but felt that they were probably going
to be ok, because of the same conclusions you state... trust in self and
boat. I know that my friends Sal/Brian have had minimal friction between
them during some trying "adventures" while travelling (they've done a few
cruising trips). Jay and I seem pretty compatible and we don't screech at
each other (prime example was when I got stuck on the road and he drove
about 3 hours to come help).

The navigation stuff sounds like fun actually. It's probably the geek in me
also. That's one thing I need to get my head around, as I have zero
knowledge about this except for the rudimentary (D=S x T) and some Set and
Drift stuff (mostly Brian pushing me to figure it out on my own).

--
Nom=de=Plume

On Apr 15, 1:32*pm, "nom=de=plume" wrote:


Nothing wrong with travelling on the cheap...


I know, I've done it for years.

"Bill McKee" wrote in message
m...

"nom=de=plume" wrote in message
...
"Frogwatch" wrote in message
...
On Apr 14, 3:36 pm, hk wrote:
On 4/14/10 3:25 PM, nom=de=plume wrote:



My friend is trying to convince me to go halfs with him on a boat...
he's
talking about either an Island Packet, which I've seen before, or
possibly a
Valiant, which I haven't seen. The "plan" that we've been talking
about is
getting something in the mid- to low-40 foot range, berthing it on the
bay
(probably Sausalito, assuming we could find a suitable place), and
then
taking it down to Mexico a year from next October (which is the
supposed
"weather window" for travelling south). The approximate cost for each
of us
would be in the $150K to $200K range, perhaps some wiggle room,
depending
upon how new the boat would be and what needs to get retrofitted.

My friend wants to get something made in the US... I guess it's easier
to
have it Federally registered. And, we both like the idea of buying
American
if possible.

Right now, there's another couple that would be putting in sweat and
time
equity (but limited cash), so that would give us a crew of four for
Mexico.
I'm probably the most junior as far as sailing experience goes... just
the
Hobie 18 in my distant past. I'd probably take some classes with Sal,
because we could probably both use a refresher.

We're thinking if we get the boat in the next couple of months, so
we'd have
a good long time to get really familiar with how it sails and how we
sail
together (we've sailed locally a few times with no conflicts). The
guys are
best buddies, so that's not an issue.

So, we're going to meet up at the sail show and see what looks
interesting.
I mentioned Catalina, since I've heard the name, but apparently
they're not
quite up to the same quality standards. Is there another US-built make
in
the same class as the IP or Val? Anything else a relative novice
should
consider beyond the interpersonal/relationship stuff (we're all pretty
compatible... travelled with each other lots... and we're all pretty
independent). My main concern is can I pull my own weight on the boat,
but I
guess most of that can be figured out in sailing classes and sailing
on
whatever we get).

The older Tartans, Pacific Seacrafts, et cetera.

--http://tinyurl.com/ykxp2ym

I am not sure Valiants are still being made. How about Mason?
Morgan is good (not the Outisland series) but maybe not as good as
IP. Pearson is about in line with Morgan. Cal is supposed to be
good. S2 are good and they did make a 36
No Catalina, no Hunter, No Irwin, no Macgregor, no O'Day,
Only a year to refit a boat that size, only if you are willing to pay
a lot and it is newer.


Thanks for the list... it would definitely be newer vs. older, but I
don't think brand new. Still, a couple of years old if it's a good
quality boat seems like it shouldn't have too many problems. I don't know
what equipment we would need to add... radar maybe? Not even sure that's
needed. Mason sounds interesting. Are Cals being made?
--
Nom=de=Plume


A partnership destined to end in hell. Not necessarily because of the
partners, but because they do not know what they want or are getting in
to. Join one of the San Francisco Bay yacht clubs. There are a bunch, and
some are very reasonable. The St. Francis and Corinthian does not do not
meet that requirement. The sailors are always looking for a crew. You
will need a crew for most large sailboats. My Father in Law was a
founding member of the Richmond Yacht Club. Do not know what their costs
are. Waiting list for berths, so that does not help. He partnered for a
while, but eventually bought out the partner. He sold his Bermuda 32 as
being ketch rigged, was not easy to sail single handed. He ended up with
an Islander 30 Mk II. Nice boat, good single handed and 25 years ago,
there was a large group of I-30 class racers. You have no idea what a
large boat requires, so get some education. $200k will buy an extremely
nice boat these days. Way more than you even need to sail to The Coral
Marina in Ensenada. Or to Hawaii. Sausalito was $400 to berth 50 years
ago for a Hurricane 32, do not know what the cost is now. Oakland Estuary
has lots of resonable berths. Look at Associates membership.

Bill, thanks for the comments. We're well aware of the costs of ownership
(as much as anyone can). Jay's owned several boats, as have the others, so
they have a pretty firm idea of the costs. That's why we're looking at newer
vs. older. That's the least of our concern at this point. We've been talking
about this and the others especially have been doing much research. I do
like the idea of more than one hull... from my Hobie days... I'm sure
they're more stable than my Hobie, esp. the bigger ones. We've only talked
about catamarans, but I'd think that the same slip issues come up with three
hulls. We don't really want to haul a boat around, and I for sure don't want
to do any serious driving with one in tow in Mexico. I know it might be
overblown, but I just don't think it's safe any more.

We both think that the partnership is the biggest part of the deal,
certainly. Everyone, literally, has said to beware. It's absolutely
something to think about, and we've had the "talk" about it more than a
dozen times. Probably, we'll do that quite a bit more. I think we both think
the relationship is pretty solid at this point (about five years). He even
gets along with my ex., which is fairly amazing, since hardly anyone does
that.

Definitely no way we could afford the St. Francis or (I suppose the
Corinthian - don't know much about it). We're not much into "joining"
anyway. I don't really see the advantage of joining a club, except perhaps
for the social aspect, but since I'm living a fair distance from the bay, it
wouldn't really make much sense. If I go down there, it's either business or
pleasure.. not to sit and talk to relative strangers (get enough of that
here!).

As to cost of the boat, the good news is that brokers (and the general
selling public) are getting pushed to lower prices, so we'll potentially
save lots of money. I'm still thinking $300K is the sweet spot (financially
vs. quality of boat). That's one reason why we're going to the sail show...
see what's going on, etc. Apparently, there are used boats for sale at it
this year. No, we're not buying this week.

Oakland is possibility if we get desperate for space. It would be a slight
hassle for Jay/Sal/Brian... doesn't matter for me.

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Nom=de=Plume